BS: scottish independence

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 08:22 AM

At least (according to the BBC radio programme More or Less) most, if not all, the polls prior to the actual vote were online polls. In otherwords asking a panel of self selected group of volunteers questions over the internet. The volunteers' responses are then weighted to account for age, social groups etc (for example "little old ladies" on the panel are more likely to be better off than the average old lady as they can afford computers and internet connections). As there has never been a referendum like this before the weighting was pretty much finger in the air guess work and even the expert pollster interviewed said they could be very accurate or very inaccurate and he had no way of predicting which.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 07:03 AM

As opposed to the Holyrood con...not much difference there, then. Incompetents all, and we still listen to them.
In this case, if Cameron gives anything, where's the money coming from? Another ruddy Salmond.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 06:58 AM

Interesting point Thompson, that woman and the rich have some how scuppered the vote by voting for what they wanted - How very undramocratic of them! Besides that, it seemed most polls said that women were more in favour of independence than the men but I suppose it's always been women's prerogative to change their minds, eh?

I'm now looking forward, what's the term they were using? ah yes, engaged by the prospect of huge constitutional changes. Bring on a Federal UK I say :- )

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Thompson
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 06:41 AM

Women and the rich voted against independence - these were the swing vote, while overwhelming yes votes were registered in poor areas.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 06:37 AM

IMO, the pollsters have big-egg on their faces-leading some to believe the unlikely, that, at one point, the majority saw things their way.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 05:34 AM

Once upon a time, it was accepted political currency that a defeat on a constitutional or financial Act would have the immediate consequence of the Government's resignation.
This referendum surely meets that norm, yet has Salmond resigned? No, we will now have to put up with his grumpiness for the foreseeable future. Is it any wonder, therefore, that the people are disillusioned.
Let me quote from Cameron's speech this morning on the situation:
"We now a chance, a great opportunity, to change the way the British people are governed, and change it for the better. Political leaders on all sides of the debate now bear a heavy responsibility to come together and work contructively to advance the interests of people in Scotland as well as those in England, Wales and Northern Ireland for each and every citizen of our United Kingdom."
1. Was changing it for the worse on the table, then?
2. Did they not bear that heavy responsibility before this, or were they playing monopoly with our common wheal?
3. Our United Kingdom? I thought that was the property of Her Majesty.
4. Most importantly, I thought this is what Government was about - of course, it is only too obvious that this has long since been forgotten. Who has Parliament been working for, then? The CIA? Brussels? Their own sticky little fingers? Obviously, a few City wankers (only in the Guardian do we have to maintain the courtesy of aspirating that word into a "b")...
5. The very means by which this was raised is the West Lothian question writ large. Since when does it take the votes of only 3.6 million people, 6% of the population, to give democratic voice to the 60 million otherwise condescended to, bullied and generally ignored?

The plan was to recall Parliament on Saturday if the Yes group had won. Why not do so anyway to examine why nothing has been referred to the people? They have been on holiday for far too long, no other operation clears off on a four-months Wakes Weeks like this.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 05:09 AM

We can start with that nonsense of a Barnett (population-based) formula. Lord Barnett himself expresses his astonishment that what started as an ad-hoc calculation for a specific instance has run amok, applied incoherently to all cases.
A slightly more interesting approach is used in local government, addressing disadvantage by splitting available funds according to a disadvantage weighting. The problem with that is that it has a levelling-down effect, as the areas with advantage get so little they cannot achieve much, and cannot "save up" the credits over the years: the result is that what is available is only spent on low-value low-return projects, whereas the real needs are unaffordable despite the contribution made by that area.
So try the Nation vs Westminster for size. When all political parties court 38 Degrees, Change.org and Common Purpose because they all have greater membership than any political Party, there's something wrong. The demagogues have taken over the asylum, and the failure of NuLab to look after the rights and interests of the common man is having its consequences. One might expect that of the Bullingdon Club, but when nobody speaks to, let alone for, the man in the street, then we have trouble.
It's fairly clear that with this vote, the upheaval to the political system resulting from what are now seen as unwise political promises made to one part of the Nation, however stroppy, is triggering the start of the 2015 election campaign. We must now be careful about the promises made by the Westminster mountebanks,

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:46 AM

So that's that. I feel genuinely sorry for the pro-independence side because I know how passionately they hold their dream. However, on this occasion at least, Scotland made the right decision in my opinion. But I don't suppose we've heard the last of this.

So now what? Despite the commitment in the Edinburgh Agreement to work constructively together, there is already a political backlash against the goodies which all parties have been throwing at Scotland, and a clear feeling that it is now not just about Scottish devolution but the government of the entire UK. I think the English will be demanding a lot more before they will agree to pay for more privileges for Scotland. It's only just begun. Next year's Election could get very interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:10 AM

What I find interesting, and Andrew Marr has alluded to this in his article on BBC News website, is that it has opened up a whole Westminster Vs The UK debate and party leaders are falling over themselves to devolve more powers locally in any way they can.

The most interesting is Cameron reigniting the Westlothian debate this morning. Yes, it is silly that Scottish MPs can vote, sometimes control the vote, on legislation that does not affect Scotland and he has said this will be sorted before the next election if the other parties work together to bring it about.

I fully agree with the sentiment but I also feel that if locally devolved powers, as he puts it, means say, Yorkshire and The Humber making use of the offices in leeds Prescott bought and never used, then if you are not careful, you could ask why a Surrey MP can vote on issues that only affect Yorkshire etc etc.

In any event, you get a two tier MP system, even if you only prevent Scottish MPs voting on England, Wales or NI only bills.

A bit of a Pandora's box in itself..

Although the Scotland debate, for all the rights, wrongs, empty promises and scare mongering has sent a strong message to Westminster about disconnect in general, and for that, may your tartan never get a pull in it.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 04:04 AM

Yay!

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 03:22 AM

I agree with you Backwoodsman. England, or should I say lots of it, are 'have nots". That's what the Yes campaign was really about, the have & have nots. The underlying sentiment was that it was and still is Scotland v Westminster, NOT Scotland v England or the rest of the UK. Power to ally our elbows.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM

Eh???? The Residents of Scotland will have to work to gain your respect again?
Aye right, pal.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:59 AM

"Vicious campaigns in living memory"???
Dearie me. Why not mention the gutter tactics of Westminster, and the bias press and BBC coverage? Salmond has been a saint compared to that lot.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: selby
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:57 AM

Pleased for the Scots and very much agree with Neil Olivers sentiments but why now do I a little feeling as though one of my family has done something wrong and they have to work now to gain my respect again
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:56 AM

Hear-hear Rahere.

I'm glad that the sensible element in Scotland won the day, but I fear that England will become the UK's 'Have-Not' country in comparison with Scotland, Wales and NI.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:43 AM

Bugger the Spanish, what about fair dos for the rest of us? After months of shitting on England, the Scots still magically come out with a deal which gives them yet more advantages, and we were never consulted about it by this limp-dick apology of a Prime Minister.
And we will still have to put up with Salmond and company claiming every moral virtue despite running one of the most vicious campaigns in living memory: the only thing he should do now is resign, but he won't. Po the Dragon Warrior Rules.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:28 AM

I'll let you into a secret. I'm not too busy at all. I offered to accompany her on the train this morning as it is a three hour hop.

She said "If you think I am letting you loose in Edinburgh regardless of the vote next Friday you can think again!"

She has a point. Mind you, at least my holiday and student lets North of the border will carry on providing me with sterling rather than groats.

Win win 😜

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:18 AM

I'll give credit where credit is due, Mr M.
You are the best wind-up merchant on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 02:03 AM

It's all over. The good people of Scotland have spoken.

Salmond is to give a speech at 10.00am. Hopefully to apologise for creating a chism in Scottish society and creating a divide within The UK that will take years to put right.

Mrs Musket is in Edinburgh today to do with work, I would have liked to have gone myself to see the celebrations. Too busy unfortunately. Ah well.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Sol
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 01:15 AM

And finally, Fife says No.

Alas, it appears the fat lady has stopped singing.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: PHJim
Date: 19 Sep 14 - 12:55 AM

Sounds like the "Nos" have it, but Edinburgh's not in yet.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 10:16 PM

As I head to bed, the early returns from The Hebrides and the Orkneys are all 'no'. Lots more to go, but they expected more yes votes.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:59 PM

I don't know anything about Neil Oliver, but I hope they listen to him. This should be a time of unions, not partitions.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 03:41 PM

300 years is one hell of step backwards!

Here's what Neil Oliver has to say:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/11102155/Now-is-not-the-time-for-Scots-to-think-small.html

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 03:23 PM

If yes - I dare anyone to ask Dick Gaughan how he likes being a foreigner!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 03:02 PM

Spain is likely to have its own questions to deal with as Catalonia moves towards independence.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 02:54 PM

Would that be the same Norway that complains that in order to trade, it is stuck with EU rules without influencing them or having a say?

Would that be an independent Scotland that would be saddled with its share of the debt without said debt featuring in any SNP promises or forecasts?

Would that be an independent Scotland so independent that it could not set its own interest rates?

Would that be the same welcoming EU that includes Spain?

What gets me is that when reality pops in for a sandwich, it is seen as part of a no campaign rather than a demonstration of the risks Salmond and his cronies has already subjected the whole of The Uk to purely to feed a nationalistic dream borne of bigotry and blaming others for the state of the country he has been governing for a while now.

It'd be funny if it wasn't so potentially tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 02:42 PM

Scots' main reason for considering independence is that the regime in the UK in the last 20 or 30 years has been increasingly foreign to Scottish values. They don't like the growing distance between classes, the 'austerity' values, the lack of egalitarianism.
If Scots vote to become an independent country, it is unlikely that any of the scenarios envisaged here will take place.

* Currency: a country can peg its currency to any other currency it wishes, and trade it at that value. Ireland pegged its currency to the British pound for a long time, and then to the EMU and then the euro, before joining the euro.
* EU membership: the EU would be only gumming to have Scotland - with a major chunk of the world's oil reserves, and rich fishing grounds, plus a vibrant financial service sector - as a member.
* Non-EU: however, Scotland could make an alliance with countries like the similarly oil- and fish-rich Norway, which has thrived outside the EU, while for instance Ireland's once rich fishing grounds have been fished out to barrenness by being opened to all EU fishing vessels.
(The EU's clumsy quota system means that fishermen throw back millions of tons of dead and dying fish into the sea because they're not acceptable within their catch quota. The EU's farm payments system has deformed farming and ruined small farmers, while chucking money and advantage at the ranchers who farm on an industrial scale. And the EU which was born with such noble promises that small and large countries would have equal advantage has become a Reich of bullying big countries.)

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 01:27 PM

Hows the bank balance Mr Iceland?

Remember when Salmond wanted to emulate your economy?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: skarpi
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 12:28 PM

I heard that Iceland is supporting Scotland independence :)
Go Scotland say Yes ....
Don´t listen to that Mr, Brown the Elite is afraid ....take change ..
be independence . ,

Stop the Elite ..say YES ...
all the best Skarpi Iceland .

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 11:29 AM

BBC... "Votes will be cast at 5,579 polling stations until 22:00 on Thursday. The result is expected on Friday morning."

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 11:25 AM

So, when will we know (or start to know?) the outcome? Is it by paper or electronic ballot? When do the polls close? Will haggis be served?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 11:00 AM

Seems like the SNP have told the Shetlanders that they can't have a referendum to leave Scotland and become an independent crown colony. Seems like's what good for the gander isn't good for the goose - especially one that's got a huge oily egg.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 09:08 AM

There is a nice little scenario if the Yes side wins. Suppose the Scotland does then join the EU, as the 'yes' side always claimed. But there is already a promise of an rUK vote for an EU in-or-out referendum in certain circumstances. What exactly happens if that occurs and rUK votes to leave, presumably leaving Scotland still in the EU. The ramifications are interesting ...

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 09:06 AM

Only residents will be able to vote in the referendum, however, expats and Scottish-Americans alike are discussing the issues on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 08:59 AM

I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 08:46 AM

i think it will be a surprise yes vote about 52 per cent

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Ed T
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:52 AM

Robo-gnu?
;)

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:14 AM

Don't laugh. Polls suggest enough poor buggers up there are gullible enough to fall for it.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 07:02 AM

Why are you lying, gnu?

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: gnu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 06:38 AM

URGENT REFERENDUM UPDATE: Electoral Commission have decided that due to expect large turn out that they are splitting polling day over two... important that if you are voting Yes do so on Thursday 18th and if No voter go to polling stations on Friday 19th.

Please spread as wide as possible to avoid delays.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 04:10 AM

Be fair Stu. They weren't very good at it when they tried it on their own in Central America. They needed to be part of something bigger in order to successfully colonise.

Methinks Akenaton would do well to get someone to read out some Scottish history books to him. For someone so in love with a vision that doesn't exist, his lack of understanding of Scotland is breathtaking.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 14 - 03:59 AM

The issue with Wales is one of economics and is very different to that of Scotland. independence would have to look quite different for Wales as the countries are so different, and Wales is much more closely tied to England in an economic sense.

I think some sort of devo-max for Wales could work and I for one (having a Welsh parent) would love to see Wales stand up for herself more; she's a wonderful country with wonderful people and although her traditions are not as well-known the Scottish ones, they are deep and ancient.

"time this particular "colony" stood up for its young people"

Oh Lordy Ake, Scotland isn't and never has been a colony. It's a tad disrespectful to those countries that were colonies to include yourself alongside them as victims. The Scots were equal and eager partners in Empire and like it or not you were the coloniser alongside the English and Welsh, not the victim.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: olddude
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 07:38 PM

if i may render a guess i think maybe Wales will be next what do you folks in the uk think

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: selby
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 06:28 PM

Whatever the result tomorrow its goodbye United Kingdom the union has been shattered by the attitude of the YES voters.
Keith

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: akenaton
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 02:43 PM

You put the position very well Doug, we just want to take responsibility for our own affairs.

The UK has been granting independence to ex colonies for years, time this particular "colony" stood up for its young people, who are the future of Scotland, not the wealthy pensioners, the crooked bankers, absentee landlords, or the pen pushers who turned our National Health Service into a business and almost destroyed it in the process.

I have been out canvassing, and have spoken to hundreds of customers and locals.....I am amazed at the numbers who were unsure but are now moving to YES....I have yet to encounter one person who has moved from YES to NO.

AS I said at the beginning, the final vote will be decided on gut instinct, National pride, and personal responsibility.

"Freedom come all ye"

Roch the wind in the clear day's dawin
Blaws the cloods heelster-gowdie ow'r the bay,
But there's mair nor a roch wind blawin
Through the great glen o' the warld the day.
It's a thocht that will gar oor rottans
– A' they rogues that gang gallus, fresh and gay –
Tak the road, and seek ither loanins
For their ill ploys, tae sport and play

Nae mair will the bonnie callants
Mairch tae war when oor braggarts crousely craw,
Nor wee weans frae pit-heid and clachan
Mourn the ships sailin' doon the Broomielaw.
Broken faimlies in lands we've herriet,
Will curse Scotland the Brave nae mair, nae mair;
Black and white, ane til ither mairriet,
   Mak the vile barracks o' their maisters bare.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 02:29 PM

Go or stay, I don't think this has done Anglo-Scottish relations many favours. The case for independence seems to be, "we're not just distinct from you, we're different from you". The anti-English feeling which is never far below the surface has been evident. That's not a good basis for a future relationship, whether as neighbours or within the Union. I think there may be an English backlash which will make it harder for Scotland to get the terms it wants.

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Musket
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 12:07 PM

Not sure of your point Scabby Douglas?

Well, considering Salmond has told some corkers where I either know the facts by virtue of what I do or the facts are there for anybody to get their hands on, either my point stands or he is misinformed.

Either is somewhat scary...

Of course, the real culprit here is Cameron who was so cocksure nobody would vote yes, he agreed to a process that affects The UK without 90% of The UK getting a say in it.

Pandora's box is well and truly open. I don't get to vote of course, but if it is a yes, I get to vote in the next general election where parties will be looking for mandates to negotiate, and I don't see much chance of anybody getting elected on a pro Scotland ticket any more than a pro Europe one.

Listen to your man Salmond properly. He promises the benefits, then says he then has to negotiate said benefits with The UK. He has his excuses lined up ready. He sounds like the German finance minister who, when they were preparing for The Euro, said The UK will have to drop the pound and take on The Euro. Their denial is just political posturing...

Saltire? Satire more like...

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 12:00 PM

Dazbo, with all due respect, you are missing the point. "Yesers", as you call them, are actively seeking to step away from this relationship that causes you to feel so aggrieved and put-upon. We're not voting Yes to gain new concessions, or to get a better kind of devolution. We want to be responsible for our own governance, our own future.

Precisely because we've had enough of being seen as spongers, whiners, freeloaders.

(And this is where you come back and pour scorn on the very idea that Scotland can do it, where you tell us that we'll be crawling back in a few years, once we're broke, etc, etc. )

Subject: RE: BS: scottish independence
From: GUEST,Dazbo at Work
Date: 17 Sep 14 - 11:06 AM

Wolfgang - I don't think he spoke tongue in cheek as that's the way many of us English feel. Being blamed for things that aren't our fault or within our control and then whinging about not being represented when they have more MPs per head of poputlation than anywhere else in the UK and a disproportionate presence in senior government and civil service posts. Not for nothing was the last labour government called a Jockocracy. Bear in mind that since devolution Scottish MPs in Westminster have voted on matters that affect England that English MPs can't vote on when it affects Scotland; even on occasion ensuring unpopular English legislation was passed only with the help of the votes from the Scottish labour MPs.

The Scots have come across for the last forty five years that I can remember as spoiled brats who blame all their ills on the English yet ignore all the privileges they have been granted and jobs preserved. Why, for example, are the major UK navy dockyards located in Scotland and the English ones all closed down or downsized?

Akenaton is whinging about the unemployed youths in Scotland. He doesn't mention that it costs a Scottish student a lot less to get a degree than an English Student (bear in mind also that a Student from an EU country also pays less in a Scottish university than an English student at the same Scottish university on the same degree course). England is the only country in the UK that has to pay prescription charges. etc etc etc.

Basically the Yesers want their cake and eat it and grab as much of the English cake they can get their hands on and still claim we are cheating them.