BS: American English usages taking over Brit

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:38 PM

But that's just a reaction.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:29 PM

"Nucular" is not correct and I don't say it myself, but not everybody has had the chance to learn about the nucleus and nuclear reactions.

Meanwhile, people get along as best they can using the language they already know. And that language includes words such as:

particular
spectacular
funicular
orbicular
and perhaps more,

and these words serve to make "nucular" more natural than "nuclear."

I can't even think of another word anything like "nuclear."

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 02:08 PM

It doesn't much worry me if citizens of the USA have typewriters without a letter u, or the letter s, having to content themselves with a bare o in colour, and a z in all words ending in -ise.

I wish however that they would remember a few important facts:-

No atom ever had a "Nuculus", it is a Nu-cleus.
Hence, there is no Nucular Energy, no Nucular Bomb, no Nucular Treaty, and No Nucular Family.

Without exception, they are "Nuclear", pronounced "New Clear"

This would not bother me at all, were it confined to the USA, but even our bloody newsreaders are doing it on the BBC, once the home of correct pronunciation.

GGGGRRRRR!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 06:59 AM

One of my favourite US Science Fiction writers recently entitled one of his blog posts, "Well Whinge!" - which I thought was brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 26 Sep 11 - 01:52 AM

Is turnabout fair play? The Britishism Invasion, Language corruption is a two-way street (By Ben Yagoda in Slate.com)

"...language historian Dennis Baron pointed out recently that Brits have been whining about "Americanisms" at least since 1781, when John Witherspoon coined the term. So it may shock you to learn that British words and expressions have, of late, been worming their way into the American lexicon as much as the other way around. "

Check the graphs...

He's got a blog, Not One-Off Britishisms, and posts this excerpt:

"Advert (instead of advertisement or ad), bespoke, bits (instead of parts), brilliant, called (instead of named), chat show, chat up, cheers, a coffee, cookery, DIY, early days, fishmonger, full stop (instead of period, as in the punctuation mark), ginger (a red-haired person), gobsmacked, had got (instead of gotten), Hoover (as a verb), in future, keen on, kerfuffle, mobile (as in mobile phone), on holiday, one-off, posh, presenter (a television host), queue, sell-by date, shite, short-listed, snog (passionately kiss), sort out, spot on, starter (instead of appetizer), straight away, take a decision, top up, twee, wait for it, wanker, and whilst."

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:10 PM

The invasion of "elevator" is diminishing the currency of an old joke in Oz.

Bloke from Beyond the Black Stump (I occasionally name Tibooburra if I'm trying to convince) has to go to The Big Smoke (Sydney) for the first time in his long life to sort out an insurance problem at the company's head office.

He finds the building and, like all such places, it has a huge forecourt with a wall of glass facing him. Set into the bottom of the glass wall is a set of doors, each with a sign "PUSH", so he pushes one and it opens so he goes through. Just inside, there is another glass wall with a set of doors, each with the sign "PULL" so he pulls at one and it opens so he goes through. Inside, there is a large space with its ceiling about 4 stories up and, opposite him, a huge wall of decorative marble. At the bottom of the wall is another set of doors, each with the sign "LIFT" and he's there for ages, struggling to get one open.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM

Q, I still answer the phone from time to time with "St. James Infermery - you stab 'em, we'll slab 'em".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:49 PM

I remember answering the 'phone when I was a mentally challenged kid (OK, I still am m c):

"Hello! Funeral Services- we undertake to take you under."

Ebbie, I deplore some of the usages, but we are stuck with them, once they become part of media-speak.
(the media also can shift pronunciations- e. g., covert has changed from kuv-ert to co-vert).

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:48 PM

I think that (in the US, at least), 'sibling' is more likely to be used as an adjective rather than a noun - such as 'sibling rivalry'.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:43 PM

Well, you wouldn't say 'How's the spouse?' unless you were being facetious - but still a useful word

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:32 PM

how are the siblings?

Ha, that's funny. I don't think ANYONE uses the word in that way.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:29 PM

MEtheGM, It has certainly come into the mainstream mostly newspapers I haven`t heard anyone on the street asking after the siblings, unheard of a few years back.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:23 PM

Can't get more American than:

Lord, I told the undertaker,
"Undertaker, please drive slow;
For this body you are hauling,
Lord, I hate to see her go"

Somehow wouldn't work with "mortician", even apart from not scanning. Or "funeral director" for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 01:14 PM

These changes have rather spoiled the effect of my favourite back-of-lorry[truck] sign that I saw many years ago: "OVERTAKER - BEWARE OF UNDERTAKER".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 12:37 PM

"Sibling" is Old English, and even less of an Americanism than "mortician" - though unlike that last, it is a very useful word.

In fact the term that tends to be used in the UK these days is neither "undertaker" nor "mortician", it's "funeral director". At least it is self-explanatory and unambiguous. I prefer "undertaker" but I suppose with most people being burnt rather than buried these days, the blackly humorous pun isn't as relevant as it used to be.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 12:00 PM

Q, you post English usage

"Mortician -
Painting, Edvard Monk, "Office Christmas Party, London Society of Morticians, 1905." See it here:
http://www.dearauntnettie.com/museum/museum-xmasparty.htm

"The first mortician was William Russel, who started a business in 1688.

"Morticians Day is celebrated on June 16."

And tthen you go on to post this:

'Mortician' has invaded British medical and death literature. Sorry, McGrath, UK usage will yield to American every time.'

And then people wonder why we USasians feel bashed? tut tut

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:31 AM

I think 'siblings' is less an Amercicanism than a catch-all term from sociology that has got out into the mainstream. Quite a useful word, to my mind — we have 'parent' to mean father or mother & 'spouse' to mean husband or wife — so why not a useful word to mean brother or sister?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:01 AM

Going back a few years I don`t ever remember seeing the word `siblings`,
`how`s the siblings doing`, imagine asking this of some old friend here in Ireland, looks like another US import, Ooo MY GADD, I WAS LIKE,
Yes youse guys US speak is here to stay.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:05 PM

'Mortician' has invaded British medical and death literature. Sorry, McGrath, UK usage will yield to American every time.

Article about Scottish Television broadcast-

"A team of morticians from Glasgow is travelling to France to exhume and identify an estimated 400 British and Australian soldiers killed during the First World War and buried in a mass grave."
http://video.stv.tv/bc/news-090429-france

See "British National Formulary," Section on British Medical Association ..."and other risk groups such as morticians and embalmers ..."
betamedicinescomplete.com/mc/bnf/current/6488.htm

"Work and Environment
Certain jobs can put people at risk from hepatitis because they may involve contact with infectious body fluids.
-Healthcare workers
-Other workers who might come in contact with body fluids including morticians, sewage workers, ..."
http://www.britishlivertrust.org.uk/home/the-liver/liver-diseases/hepatitis-b.aspx

All three of the above citations from UK websites.

Morticians, who in most European and North American countries are required to have training and a license, wish to distance their practice from that of the businessman-undertaker.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:19 PM

Mortician -
Painting, Edvard Monk, "Office Christmas Party, London Society of Morticians, 1905." See it here:
http://www.dearauntnettie.com/museum/museum-xmasparty.htm

The first mortician was William Russel, who started a business in 1688.

Morticians Day is celebrated on June 16.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:49 PM

"Morticians" is not an Americanism, it's a barbarism. I'm glad to see Bob Dylan doesn't use it:

"And the one-eyed undertaker, he blows a futile horn"

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:09 AM

Ah, Artbrooks - a fellow G MacD F enthusiast! Hurrah. I used to correspond with him about inaccuracies - particularly in Flashman In The Great Game where he recalls absently-mindedly humming Widdecombe Fair in barracks while disguised as a trooper of Native Cavalry on eve of Indian Mutiny 1857; & I pointed out that the Baring-Gould version which he obviously had in mind wasn't pub'd till 1891 — & he replied charmingly, as he always did, "Oh dear, that old fool Flashman misremembering again & I failed to pick it up in my editing!"

I think it a tragedy that he died before getting to the American Civil War so that we might find out at last how Harry Flashman contrived to fight on both sides and hold commissions in both armies. But perhaps that was policy on Fraser's part - just his little joke to keep us guessing!

I will refresh the Bless em all thread for you — I think you might find my observations, which come last of all, of interest.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:48 AM

Actually, I missed that thread - I think I was remembering something from an old (pre-Flashman) George MacDonald Frasier novel titled "The General Danced at Dawn".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 11:23 PM

' I seem to recall from someplace that the British army refers to senior noncommissioned officers, such as the regimental sergeant major, as a warrant.'

Artbrooks, I think you might be ref'ing here a recent series of posts of mine on the Help: Bless' Em All thread in which I spell out some of the complexities of senior non-com ['enlisted'] ranks in the British army.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 08:54 PM

Whatever you say, Lighter.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 08:15 PM

You mean the "politically correct movement" as in the "Handbook for Marine NCOs" (1995)?: "Similarly, when enlisted persons speak of themselves or to or of other enlisted persons they should do so by rank -'Lance Corporal Daly,' not just 'Daly.'"

Or how about the "Enlisted Soldier's Guide" (2006)?: "Enlisted persons are eligible upon completion of initial MOS-producing courses."

As you say, "enlisted" is also commonly used. But the full term is still "enlisted persons" and has been for as long as women have held enlisted rank.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: artbrooks
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 07:28 PM

Generally, it is "officers" and "enlisted" in the US military - "enlisted persons" is a relic of the misguided 'politically correct' movement and is not used. Actually, enlisted is the generic term and, when referring to specific individuals, one would use a branch-specific term, such as soldiers, sailors, airmen (yes, it's airMEN) and Marines. Marine gets capitalized - its important to them. There is also a set of ranks that is in-between - warrants or warrant officers.   I seem to recall from someplace that the British army refers to senior noncommissioned officers, such as the regimental sergeant major, as a warrant. The US military reserves the term for specialists.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:34 PM

And your 'garbageman' is our 'dustman' — see Dickens' Our Mutual Friend & Shaw's Pygmalion.

& so ad infinitum...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:22 PM

Mortician is another late 19th c. word, which first appeared in an advertisement for burial services. A 1915 entry said the word is a "recent inovation due to a need felt by undertakers for a word in keeping and more descriptive of their calling." (OED)

In 1863, Hawthorne said "'caskets' is a vile modern phrase which compels a person to shrink from the idea of being buried at all." (OED)

In the U. S. and Canada, both mortician and undertaker and both coffin and casket are in common usage.

These, and other terms, may result from members of various occupations trying to glorify their callings. Political Correctness is bringing about more of these replacements, esp. in the U. S.; e. g. the word 'garbageman' is being replaced by 'sanitary' worker or similar euphemism.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:12 PM

Where I live in the mountain west, people generally say undertaker. Other parts of America people may say mortician, but that's just another example of how a big country has regional differences.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Alice
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:08 PM

Mortician and undertaker - both words are used here in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 01:05 PM

The general term is no longer "enlisted men."

It's "enlisted persons."

Is that the sound of teeth grinding I hear?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:43 PM

Incidentally, there is another example you provided -- your 'mortician' is our 'undertaker'.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:41 PM

I have checked the full edition of the Oxford Dict, which gives NO instance of the word 'casket, being used as a synonym for 'coffin' except under the head firmly labelled U.S., giving an earliest use of 1870. I think my above suggestion holds, Uncle Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 12:10 PM

MtheGM, I just have a sneaking suspicion that the use of "caskets" for the corpse-burial container may be one of those many American survivals of older British usages, rather than Americanisms, whether mortician or otherwise.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 04:11 AM

... & another usage-variant of which I am reminded by a post on the Things to Do Before Dying thread is that we bury our dead in 'coffins'; 'caskets' over here are used to keep jewels &c in. I can't help feeling that your use of 'casket' for this concept probably originated as a somewhat genteel undertakers' euphemism — would I be correct in that?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 13 Nov 09 - 03:49 AM

One example which has been ticking around my head since I started this thread has just surfaced — the term used in the military for servicemen [and women] who are not officers. The correct, & official, British English term for those not commissioned in the British armed services is "Other Ranks" ['OR' or 'ORs']. But the distinguished English novelist Ben Elton, in one of his books with a British military setting, persistently used the American equivalent "Enlisted men", which set my teeth on edge every time I came across it. Whether ignorance, or wilfulness, or a misguided attempt at Transpond trendiness on Elton's part, I have no means of knowing — I did write to him on the matter c/o his publishers but received no response. But I hope this won't catch on. You over there may have your 'enlisted men', but we have our 'other ranks', & long may it remain so.

Re previous post — in Noel Coward's play 'Relative Values', an American visitor who announces she is going 'horseriding' receives the reply "We just say 'riding' - the horse is taken for granted".

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:23 PM

hummmph! I quite LIKE Cadbury's...when I can get them.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: melodeonboy
Date: 10 Nov 09 - 05:09 PM

Hmmmm... Crap cheese company takes over crap chocolate company. Hydrogenated vegetable oils galore! Yum-yum!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:39 PM

Kraft makes hostile takeover bid for Cadbury. Now that's a takeover!

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Penny S.
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:35 PM

Ah, but silly derives from "saelig" meaning holy, as all from Silly Sussex kno.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:30 PM

Would the Scilians object?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 05:06 PM

trying to come up with an acronym, but not having much luck

Therfe's always "The WISE Islands" - Welsh, Irish, Scottisdh, English. As ironic as "Friendly"...

Maybe we could extend the name Silly Islands to cover the entire archipelago. And drop the C.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:48 PM

How about United Superb Lands Of Towering-geniuses — abbreviated to Us Lot?

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Bill D
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 03:13 PM

"all you folks who live on various sized islands near the coast of continental Europe."

*trying to come up with an acronym, but not having much luck*

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:52 PM

Cook published a map of "The Friendly Isles" in 1777. Tonga has priority.
David Rumsey map collection. www.davidrumsey.com

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:35 PM

The Friendly Isles - united by a taste for irony.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 02:07 PM

See Oxford English Dictionary- turning nouns into verbs is a pretty old practice.

How about- Republic of Ireland and those other people.

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:14 PM

Brit English has always turned nouns into verbs: many examples in Shax, e.g. "He out-Herods Herod"; "Grace me no Grace and Uncle me no Uncle"...

Subject: RE: BS: American English usages taking over Brit
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 09 Nov 09 - 01:02 PM

Turning nouns into verbs.

About as Yank as it gets........