42 days to no smoking (UK)

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 03:02 PM

Smoking in public places in Ireland is now a thing of the past.
Learn to live with it - longer!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Jul 08 - 12:42 AM

At the upscale hotel where I work part time as a billing clerk, the hotel stipulates on the registration form that if "smoking is found to have occurred", there will be a $200 surcharge. As these billings are paid by corporations rather than individuals, I have no doubt but that the corporations would pony up.

However, there *is* a problem in the non-smoking rule that perhaps not too many foresaw. The mess.

Maybe in the UK all people, smokers included, are thoughtful and neat and clean. Not so in Juneau, Alaska.

The sidewalks (pavements) in front of not just the bars (pubs) but nearby shops every morning are littered with cigarette butts, the occasional empty beer can or bottle (nevermind that drinking outside is strictly verboten), empty cigarette packs and other scraps of paper and bits of traxh.

Bar keeps are out there every morning, sweeping and picking up, hosing off the concrete. This morning as I passed by with my little dog, a shop keeper warned me to swing wide, that there was 'barf' everywhere.

The city has installed metal containers on each of the trash bins on the sidewalks but they are obviously not being properly utilized.

Is there an answer? I feel like writing a letter to the local newspaper suggesting that those of us who are grateful for the smoke-free public places might wish to show up with the occasional broom just to help.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,some name I used last year on this thread
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:22 PM

as a none smoker myself,

"Even as a non-smoker I find the attitudes very confusing!"

yes.. history is so littered with confused and self profiting

tyranical staas quo appeasers...

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:13 PM

There's a letter in todays Telegraph complaining about the smokers (and smoke) in the beer garden of a pub. The author doesn't seem to appreciate that the beer garden is full of smokers because they have been sent outside from the pub!
It's a case of "When we want to drink inside (in the winter) the smokers should be banned (sent outside). When we want to drink outside (in the summer) the drinkers should go somewhere else.

Even as a non-smoker I find the attitudes very confusing!

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Blowzabella
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 01:07 PM

Whatever the rights or wrongs of the smoking ban, Goatfell, I am not necessarily of the opinion that, on occasion, the minority shouldn't tell the majority what to do. If we went down the route of the majority having the say so everytime, believe me, we'd have a lot less variety in our lives than we have now and the chances are that there would be even less folk-friendly environments than there are

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 12:55 PM

It's also illegal to smoke in doorways. At session last night everyone could smell the smoke drifting back from the pub doorway through saloon-type doors. The bar tender had to use some heavy persuasion to move the smoker out into the street, where it was pouring with rain!
I had this theory that smokers would give up, faced with the discomforts of hanging around outside pubs in the freezing cold or pouring rain, but seems they prefer to martyr themselves still further in pursuit of their journey to ill-health. And I've heard it's led to new relationshiops being struck up, divorces, etc, as smokers congregate outside whatever buildings.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: goatfell
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 11:10 AM

In Scotland only a quarter of people smoke, so three quarters of people don't smoke, so this is the minority telling the majority that they are wrong.

Cough, Spluttter, die

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 09:18 AM

Herefordshire is a big place, Sal! How many pubs are there? How many have closed? What sort of percentage? How much is due to the smoking ban and how much is it the recession? Is it above or below the national average? Lots of questions need addressing here before we can categoricaly say that, as your comment suggests, a large majority are closing and that it is due to the smoking ban!

I am sure the pub that is allowing smoking will soon be on the list of closed ones as well though. Do they not know that their licence can be revoked? I suspect it is just a publicity gimmick.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 04 Jul 08 - 08:56 AM

They're dropping like flies here in Herefordshire.

One local pub to me has decided not to obey the law and is allowing smoking.

Sal

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:24 AM

OK - I promised I would comment on how the smoking ban had affected the pubs near me after 1st July last year so hear goes. First the list of pubs -

Irlams o'th' Height

Red Lion
Wellington
Dog and Partridge
Wagon and Horses
St Lukes social club

Salford

The Hope
(There are dozens just outside the circle but I don't go in any!)

Swinton

Farmers Arms
Cricketers
White Lion
St Marys social club
Park Inn
White Swan
Staff of Life
Buckley
Bull
Football
Weavers
British Legion

Pendlebury

Royal Oak
Albert (Currently closed - may re-open yet. I dunno.)
The Pendlebury
Bowling Green
British Legion
Newmarket
Nelson
Britannia
Showboat
Borough Social

So - nearly 30 pubs. The predictions were anything ranging from none to 50% of pubs would close. I predicted that 10% would be pushing it so, here goes.

Closed pubs -

Albert (Was closed prior to the 'ban' and is still closed. Can't realy count this.

Dog and Partridge. Closed down by the police due to the second shooting in 3 months. Can we put this down to the 'ban'? Maybe the shootings were by frustrated smokers.

The Pendlebury - For Sale
The Weavers - For Sale.

That's it.

2 out of nearly 30 pubs closed 'voluntarily'. 1 forcibly closed by the authorities.

So, my 10% prediction was not too far off. Hardly devastating is it?

Dave.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 12:51 PM

You're right, it was irritatingly boring, I can only apologise.
Rog

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 16 Jul 07 - 02:39 AM

Oh don't be so boringly logical Rog Peek.

This now-outdated thread title is the one that we've grown to know and love. The one that we daily check to see what new postings there are.

Self-righteous, pompous, funny, some very erudite comments made with a rapier-like thrust - they're all here. Don't lets change the name.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 15 Jul 07 - 10:33 AM

Shouldn't this now be '15 days of non-smoking (UK)?

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:12 PM

I always called them donkymose

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Rog Peek
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 05:03 PM

Jimson
You do? Bloody marvelous, I was beginning to think I'd imagined them. Thank you!

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Rasener
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 12:53 PM

I think the no smoking signs should be in braille as well for people who can't see and messages that announce "No Smoking" when you walk into the bar (a bit like "mind the gap" on the tubes).

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,Jimson
Date: 14 Jul 07 - 07:34 AM

Yes...I remember Dominos.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 09:35 PM

It seems to me a lot of people haven't bothered to check up what the law actually says, and have assumed it goes further than it actually does.

But I'm still puzzled why there should be any requirement to have no smoking notices in any enclosed premises open to the public now that there is a national ban on smoking in such places.

I imagine it's based on some idea that, in the absence of such notices, it might be possible for someone to argue that they didn't know smoking was banned - but that just seems ridiculous. I can't imagine how any court could accept such a defence.

It'd be rather as if someone being done for driving at 80 mph, on a road where the National Speed Limit was in force, were to try to claim that they thought the National Speed Limit was 80 mph. "Well, there weren't any notices indicating the maximum speed allowed". Fat chance!

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,Kampervan
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 11:51 AM

MBSGeorge - All is not lost.

I quote from the official HM Government document sent to me telling me how to implement the rules

The new law will require vehicles to be smokefree at all times if they are used:-

To transport members of the public.

In the course of paid or voluntary work by more than one person - regadless of whether or not they are in the vehicle at the same time.

If MBSGeorge is the only person who uses his vehicle then he can smoke in it.

Don't let's extend this ban further than is necessary!

K/van

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 04:33 AM

Up here in Scotland, snuff has not taken off as an alternative. There was a regular in Sandy Bells who used to be a snuff taker and handed it round in the pub. He was back from Canada last weekend for the first time since the ban; no snuff in sight. And I haven't noticed any more of it on sale.

The most immediate change I noticed in pub sessions in Scotland was how much quieter the punters were - suddenly it was *far* easier for the musicians to hear each other, even with more people in the bar. I think the reason may have been indirect; it takes time for the volume of a pub conversation to build up, and having the smokers go outside every so often had the effect of resetting the volume to its starting level.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: JennyO
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 03:44 AM

I'm not a smoker, and I'm happy for any measures that mean I don't have to be a passive smoker, but I do sympathise with MBSGeorge about not being able to smoke in a works vehicle with nobody else there. That is a bit rough, and I think it's taking the ban too far.

If it was a rule of the company because they didn't want their trim stained with nicotine, they would have a right, but otherwise this seems like a ridiculous rule.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: John J
Date: 13 Jul 07 - 02:18 AM

As a life-long non-smoker I welcome the smoking ban, it's lovely to go to the pub and breathe smoke-free air. It's also going to save on my laundry bills, my clothes don't pong. However I'm sure that has all been said / argued about before.

Regarding the post by MBSGeorge regarding the smoking-whilst-driving, as a cyclist and an ex-motorcyclist I find the axiom 'beware the car / van / truck driver who is smoking' is a good life preserver.

Just my thoughts.

JJ

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: DougR
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 07:52 PM

What about the "free will" for those non-smokers who prefer a clean envirnoment in which to enjoy their pint? Don't they have rights too?

DougR

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: MBSGeorge
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 06:52 PM

The smoking ban is ridiculous - e.g. No smoking in works vehicles - What if you are self employed and are the only employee and own your own van - not allowed to smoke - what if said van is your only transport - still not allowed to smoke! My husband drives a works van - belongs to the company - he is the only person who uses it - he works alone - still not allowed to smoke in the van!! Next they will ban all smoking when driving!! It is ridiculous - you should only be banned from smoking in works vehicles if you are carrying 1 or more passengers. What happened to free will? Surely this is some sort of breach of human rights - smoking is not totally illegal so therefore it is a breach of human rights for smokers!

Bloody government only make laws that suit them.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,ib48
Date: 12 Jul 07 - 11:01 AM

best thing thats ever happened,no more sore throats.I CAN SING CLEARLY NOW,THE SMOKE HAS GONE.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: terrier
Date: 11 Jul 07 - 06:26 PM

I believe that Stoke On Trent have fouled up and not done their paperwork properly allowing smoking to continue for another month! Pub smokers are making good use of the temporary reprieve. They're calling it 'Smoke On Trent'.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:42 PM

Of course now that people have to smoke outside the landlord has no idea what they are mixing with their baccy...

That had occurred to me as one of the possible advantages of the new situation. One of the unanticipated consequences that new laws always tend to give rise to.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 06:06 PM

Black Horse was good. Not the fullest I have seen it but far from the emptiest:-) Even Steve the organiser, who smokes more than a smoking thing that smokes a lot, seemed to be quite happy.

Of course now that people have to smoke outside the landlord has no idea what they are mixing with their baccy...

:D

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: mandotim
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:09 PM

My local is taking this very seriously; the following measures have come into effect;
-No smoking
-Smoky bacon crisps and Smoked Mackerel Pate are off the menu
-Several tracks have disappeared from the jukebox, including 'Smoke Gets in your Eyes, Smoke on the Water, Cigarettes and Whisky, Bach's Air on the G String and anything at all by Smokie.
-Smokin' Joe Frazier has been barred indefinitely

Also, an itinerant didgeridoo player was thrown out 'on suspicion'.

The landlord likes a spot of irony...
Tim ;)

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 07:42 AM

I was in the Rockcliffe arms in Whitley Bay last night and the effect on custom was certainly un-noticeable. What was different though was something I had not thought of. There seemed to be a dominoes competion going on and between each game people were poping out for a smoke. It seemed, very oddly, more like a 'sporting event' than it ever seemed before with defined times between 'Game on' and breaks. Everyone seemed to be happy with th earrangement anyway:-)

Off to the Black Horse tonight for my first smoke free open mic. night.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:50 AM

First ciggie-free session at the 'Eel's Foot' this week proved a rather disjointed affair.

Well, it's always been illegal to smoke that kind of ciggy....

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 07 - 05:27 AM

Don't think it ever goes to 12 degrees F on the IOM McG - Too near the gulf stream!

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jul 07 - 08:59 AM

If eight out of ten people in the bar were smoking it's hardly surprising non-smokers kept away.

"...when the ban comes into effect in October."

Where'd that be Rustic Rebel?

I gather there's still one place in the British Isles people can still go to smoke in pubs - the Isle of Man.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,Rustic Rebel
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 11:17 PM

30% of the UK population you say Dave are smokers?
That means 18,232,871 people (2007 population-60,776,238).
I believe it's the opposite in my town and bar. It's about 10% (20% max) non-smokers that come into the bar. That will be a big impact on the bar owner/customers when the ban comes into effect in October.
Going outside when it's 20 below zero F. will not be as pleasant as standing under an umbrella to get away from the sun.


Skipy-I'm sending you some energy brother-Keep up the fight!!

Rustic

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Pistachio
Date: 08 Jul 07 - 05:03 PM

Just want to say that I thoroughly enjoyed the first Folk Festival as a non passive smoker. No stinky clothes to pack away in a plastic bag within my motorhome, no smoke tainted pillowcase as I waken, no taking an involuntary breathful of exhaled gubbins mid song. Altogether refreshingly 'fresh' air'.
All that concerned me was a huge yellow tinted cloud hanging over the Hull area as I returned East from Cleckheaton!
Answers on a postcard please...!
Thank you, and goodnight.
Hazel.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 06:24 PM

Sessions in bars have had to live with the smoke - but when it comes to using function rooms in pubs and so forth, I can't remember the last time I ever saw anyone light up.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Rusty Dobro
Date: 07 Jul 07 - 10:21 AM

First ciggie-free session at the 'Eel's Foot' this week proved a rather disjointed affair. Normally the music has gone 'round the room' with hardly a pause between 8 pm and the latest time at night legally permissable. This week, various smokers had to struggle through the crowd (it's a fairly small room)from time to time, stepping over instruments and sometimes missing their turn before they came back in again. On the face of it, nothing had changed - we all enjoyed the session, and as usual a few unsuspecting visitors had an evening they weren't expecting. But it just didn't flow like it used to - maybe it's just early days, and I for one love the clean air, but at the moment, something's been gained, something's been lost.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 02:20 PM

10!

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:54 PM

As I like to sit outside in the beer gardens during the summer, I have just realised that I now will become a passive smoker from all the smokers who will be hogging the beer garden.

Ah well, I will just have to sit inside.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:30 PM

hmmm.. oh well..

its just dawned on me how badly i'll be affected by this ban..


..i'll no longer ever be able to enjoy taking a brief break
for reflective contemplation
whilst i hone my target practice skills on
a soggy fragmenting dog-end in a pub urinal..

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:25 PM

"sat at an open air gig in the backyard of a pub last weekend...sun was fierce enough to need to sit at a table under a parasol...totally surrounded by gormlessly oblivious ill seedy looking chain smokers
and wrinkly druggies smoking spliffs..."

That sounds quite enjoyable to me.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:19 PM

.. and that guest was me forgetting to type my name in again..

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:17 PM

sorry [no i'm not !] to piss on the dog-end..

but, i'll quote me fom earlier in this thread..

##############################

"Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jun 07 - 09:21 AM

sat at an open air gig in the backyard of a pub last weekend..

sun was fierce enough to need to sit at a table under a parasol..



..totally surrounded by gormlessly oblivious ill seedy looking chain smokers
and wrinkly druggies smoking spliffs..


some of them had their young kids and toddlers jammed in amongst them..


the new pub restrictions are not positive & protective enough..

i'd have voted for a total ban on any smoking in all pub premises
including yards, gardens,
and within a stricly enforced wide area
surrounding all entrances and exits.."

##########################################



..sounds reasonable enough to me..!!!!!?????


but then i dedicate about 12 hours a week of my precious time
to maintaining superior fitness [for my age]
down t'gym..

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:11 PM

'though when there's no walls or roof the sound tends to die away rather'


Most've the pub shelters I've seen up to now have partial wall + a roof - some even have heaters, FAB!

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 12:01 PM

Outside sessions - that'd be good - though when there's no walls or roof the sound tends to die away rather.

The only time I feel like smoking tobacco is when I come up against people going on like GUEST,GEUST :"...the usual selfish old fag dependant ****s persistent self indulgent ..."

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Mr Happy
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 11:41 AM

So much grief & sorrow in this thread!

Now for something completely different!


Mr Happy's Come All Ye in the Union Vaults, Chester was still going strong this week.

Granted, the premises did seem noticeably emptier than usual in the other rooms, but the sesh area still had all the regulars.

Only meself,Anna & Phil[both blind] are smokers, but we went out to the new, almost completed covered area for a gasper.

As I remarked earlier about my experiences in a Welsh folk sesh around April, being obliged to remove oneself to the great outdoors for a fag opens up new & unexpected opportunities to chat with others who you wouldn't usually meet.

The same occured on Wednesday night too & we found it a additionally pleasureable part of our evening.

To Skipy et al, don't be downhearted - we're adaptable creatures us humans - so we'll adapt in a positive way - who knows - if the weather ever bucks up - could be sesses outside - yippee! - just like being at a festival!

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,GEUST
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 08:04 AM

btw..

you's might be interested in
Ted Tuppen
Chief Executive, Enterprise Inns

comments in positive support of the ban..



http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/bottomline/bottomline.shtml





..but no transcript seems to be available, and perhaps less than 1 day left
to 'listen again'

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: GUEST,GEUST
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:45 AM

"Well as we all know it is now a done deal so it's a bit academic to argue about whether it was right or not.

But one undeniable fact that has arisen during the first week of the ban is that pub takings for at least one brewery are a lot lower than they were before the ban.

I'm not arguing either way about the ban, just stating a fact.

The pubs have been cleaned, polished and, in some cases redecorated, but there has been absolutely no sign of all those people who hate tobacco smoke suddenly making a bee-line for the new sweet-smelling, smoke-free environment that they were so vocal about wanting. "



..another instance of a Kampervan talking out of its exhaust pipe !!!???


i] its the most miserable july weather so far on record ?

[but the best of all possible conditions for enjoying watching dejected smokers suddenly struggling to cope with their addiction
outside in the wind driven pouring rain]

ii] everbody needs time to adapt to the new pub laws,
and adapt their spare time / spare cash & social lives to the new increased options
for a 'good night out'..

iii] school summer holidays have not started yet..

wait till all the teachers are let out for over a month of relentless daytime boozing !!!


iv] me.. I'm waiting at least a week for my local to 'air out'
and the stench to of stale smoke to diminish..
and to avoid the usual selfish old fag dependant ****s persistent self indulgent whining
as they get used to parading outside to shiver under an umbrella !!!!



cheers for a better & healthier future

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 07:22 AM

even dogs need their bit of paper! (Is that still true?)

No. They abolished the dog licence years ago. I never quite understood why. There are people who are not fit to have dogs.
.........................

I think the smoking room licence Dave Polshaw suggests there would be quite a reasonable thing. I think it'd probably be unlikely to be financially viable as a commercial venture, given that it couldn't very well be connected to the bar area, and it'd have to be a non-work area, so the users would have to take care of it. But with some kind of club membership where committee members did the work and carryied the respnsibility for taking care of business...

One effect of the ban which I don't think may have been envisaged is the effect on Shisha cafés -

"Shisha cafes, in which pipes can be shared between friends, are seen as an alternative to the pub for a social night out. Inside the lounge-like cafes, sweet fragrant smoke fills the air and a fusion of Arabic, Asian and hip-hop music beats in the background. Part of the attraction of shisha is that smoking through a pipe makes the tobacco last longer, and that passing the pipe is a communal activity."

I suspect that one way and another there will be some modifications to the present overall ban. And that's no problem to me, so long as I'll still be able to go down the oub and nit have second-hand smoke forced upon me, which is a freedom I have really enjoyed these last few days.

Subject: RE: 42 days to no smoking (UK)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 07 - 06:06 AM

Don't worry, skip - I can play both sides:-)