 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'?
|
|
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: M.Ted Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:10 PM If you believe that life is meaningless, then it was OK that that young man down at Virginia Tech did what he did. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:33 PM You are missing her point. From the center of the galaxy or the center of the Universe, anythingn about human existence is pretty meaningless, just as, from a boardroom, the lives of the carpet dust mites are meaningless. But mirabile dictu!, these mites can celebrate their own meaningfulness with joy and solemnity. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:19 PM Well, I like to think my life has meaning, in and of itself - not necessarily depending on whether there is a God or not. Same thing with the mysteries of life - love, death, peace, hate, and life itself. Do they have meaning? I see that meaning within the context of a God. Others see it other ways - but I hope that there is meaning, nonetheless. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Apr 07 - 08:52 PM Yeah, I thought it was kind of bizarre too...but each to their own. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: John O'L Date: 19 Apr 07 - 08:37 PM "But our lives ARE meaningless in the greater context of things! That's why it's so WILD and WONDERFUL that we can appreciate them!" How bizarre. Is it 'our lives' we can appreciate more fully through being meaningless, or 'things'? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 07 - 08:26 PM If God fits one common definition, a Creative loving force who has always interacted with creation, then both believers and unbelievers MUST interact with God. If this God calls us to be compassionate, intuitive, creative, and humble, all those who express compassion, intuition, creativity, and humility - interact with God, whether they believe in God or not. And if there is no God, the same reality exists, but without the spiritual aspect that believers perceive. Faith is a language, a vision, a perspective, a way of viewing reality. People who don't have faith face the same reality - but from a different perspective. I hope both can tolerate and appreciate each other. Now, I have to say that I just plain don't know how to deal with the people who think in absolutes. They speak a language that is entirely from mine. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 19 Apr 07 - 07:06 PM Some of the biggest-soulked folks I know are atheists. They are more compassionate, intuitive, creative and humble then many Chrostians I know. The notion that atheists are soulless is completely non-sequitur and without merit. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: guitar Date: 19 Apr 07 - 06:55 PM I believe in God as i am a Chritian, however if you choose not to believe in God then that is up to you. Love and God Bless Tom Hamilton |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 07 - 06:06 PM He said that when some folks were trying to get licenses to build hotels and fast-food places in the Redwood Forest. They wanted to cut a whole bunch of trees down, likely to improve the view. That said, I'm having a hard time with your equation: Belief in God means one has a soul; no belief in God means one doesn't have a soul. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:36 PM Well, Mrrzy, if that makes you happy...fine with me. ;-) We had best each go with a philosophy that makes us happy, I suppose. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:35 PM "It's a shame the souless athiests of the world do not, but I will not try to change them." So you are saying that because I don't believe in God I will or will not be able to appreciate nature? Gee, that's a lttile harsh dontcha think? Wasn't it Ronald Reagan (he believed in God, at least to hear him tell it) who said--regarding California's Redwoods: "Well, if you've seen one tree you've seen them all." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: GUEST,Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:28 PM I believe in God. I look at all things wonderful in life and see Him clearly. It's a shame the souless athiests of the world do not, but I will not try to change them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:13 PM But our lives ARE meaningless in the greater context of things! That's why it's so WILD and WONDERFUL that we can appreciate them! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 19 Apr 07 - 03:45 PM It's all the answer I have got, Nick. Your proposition to which I made reference was a completely self-fulfilling argument, a circle proving its own assumptions. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Apr 07 - 02:47 PM I'm not saying there's something intellectually wrong with "it all happened by accident"...other than this: it renders our lives meaningless in the greater context of things. I'm saying that I personally do not find that notion believable. Or palatable, frankly. I think it's a nihilistic idea, and it does people a disservice. It's a sad idea. It reduces life to nothing but a short survival game which ends in one's annihilation. I cannot believe in something as pointless as that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Apr 07 - 02:42 PM I do think that the way we act, etc, is part of the physical world, but I also think that the whole physical world itself is part of further and greater non-physical worlds that lie beyond it...and from which it is projected, so to speak. Have you read any good books on quantum physics lately? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Apr 07 - 02:35 PM I guess I don't see how you can "not relate" to one of the various possibilities... either there are gods or there aren't, but you can't (I know, watch you) limit the realm of possibility to only the ones you believe in. Besides, what is wrong with It all happened by accident? I think that makes life as we know it even more interesting and worth cherishing. But atheists certainly do believe certain things. They believe there is no God, they believe (usually) there is no life after death, no heaven or hell. They generally take science - in all its branches - to be an explanation of not only the laws of the physical world, but also why we think and act the way we do. - We have usually CONCLUDED, rather than taking on faith, that gods are mythical. So yes, we believe it, but it's like believing in Australia when you live in the Northern Hemisphere, not like believing in leprechauns or other mythical creatues. We do usally believe that life is all the life you get - but are open to demonstrations of the contrary, there just haven't been any yet. Also, it follows from biology. But why O why would you think that "why we think and act the way we do" isn't part of the physical world? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Nickhere Date: 19 Apr 07 - 02:11 PM Stringslinger: "You don't believe in atheism because atheism is non-belief." No-one 'believes' in 'Christianity' either. What people believe in, is a God who has a certain purpose with regards to us and who wants us to come to Him. These people are called Christians, meaning 'followers of Christ'. Of course there isn't, as far as I am aware, a 'Christ-figure' for atheism (though Marx, Engels et al came close, it's not a kind of centralised 'belief system' - for want of a better word - in the way Christianity is). But atheists certainly do believe certain things. They believe there is no God, they believe (usually) there is no life after death, no heaven or hell. They generally take science - in all its branches - to be an explanation of not only the laws of the physical world, but also why we think and act the way we do. An extreme example of that is the Focus magazine (based in the UK, I think) that although it contains some good articles, is also replete with many articles trying to say that all our emotions and desires and human needs etc., stem simply from 'chemical imbalances' - as near a quasi-scientific religion as anyone could hope for (I don't have time to explain that remark fully at present, but will try and expand on it when I get a chance). I'm sure they believe lots of other things too, that not being an atheist, I'm not totally familiar with. If any atheist online there would like to come on to say what being an atheist means to them, it would make for an interesting discussion. There is no 'insidious' movement within Christianity to make atheists look like fundamentalists - its clear some atheists anyway (and not necessarily those posting here, I mean in general) hold certain absolute beliefs and are not open to discussion on them any more than those tagged as being fundamentalist anything-elses. But that has already been mentioned by Joe. Amos - mmmm. That's not really an answer is it? And I think I have already explained about religion and the much vaunted though over-rated 'comfort factor'. Any chance of a proper answer? ;-) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 19 Apr 07 - 01:20 PM durn, Little Hawk...that last line shows progress! ;>) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Apr 07 - 01:18 PM "Little Hawk, I was dividing up the possibilities; do you mean to deny the possibility of their being no gods?" - Mrrzy It's not exactly that I deny the possibility, Mrrzy. It's just that I simply can't relate to it. It makes utterly no sense to me. Keep in mind that I am not saying that because I belong to any particular religion. I don't. I'm saying it because there are two ways of looking at the Universe and life itself: 1. It all happened through an intelligent, purposeful process 2. It all happened completely by accident I simply cannot relate to the idea that it all happened by accident. I see evidence of a powerful intelligence at work in the structure and function of things, specially living things, right down to the atomic level. I think the term "God" is one way that people have of attempting to name that indwelling intelligence. People do love to name things... ;-) But it wouldn't matter what they called it. The indwelling intelligence that is in you...and which gives you the free will and power to decide that there IS or IS NOT any God....is God, in my opinion. (It's part of God, it's an extension of the entire functioning intelligence that is God. That same intelligence is in plants and animals and micro-organisms, I think, but to varying degrees in each case...as far as how powerfully it expresses itself.) This "God" I speak of is totally beyond the scope or awareness of most conventionally religious people, because they have chosen to focus usually on a set of books, a prophet, a church, some body of teachings which came out of the culture around them. As such, they're focusing on a very small fragment of the whole, and it's limited to the culture they know...on the planet they know. That's like a grain of sand in the cosmos. I don't believe that I can define or express what God is. I don't believe anyone can. But it can be interesting trying to express it... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:46 PM I meant, of course, of THERE being no gods, silly me! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:23 AM Yeppers. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:20 AM Perhaps, Mrzzy, everyone is, fundamentally, a god. Of course "all gods" and "no gods" add up to a similar proposition. There is one source for ethics, justice, and truth, and it is within. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Riginslinger Date: 19 Apr 07 - 10:12 AM "Try and find Jesus on your own" A lot of people have spent a lot of time trying to find Jesus. I wonder what they finally found in the end. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Mrrzy Date: 19 Apr 07 - 09:35 AM Stringsinger, I call myself a fundamentalist atheist sometimes. Little Hawk, I was dividing up the possibilities; do you mean to deny the possibility of their being no gods? I think the nature of god question might need its own thread. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Hawker Date: 19 Apr 07 - 05:12 AM I'm with WYSIWYG in this one, the inportant word in your question is should, There are no shoulds, its a personal choice. Cheers, Lucy |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: BK Lick Date: 19 Apr 07 - 02:41 AM Slag sez: "Blow up your TV It's John Prine he oughta be apologizin' to. Prine's words: Blow up your TV throw away your paper |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Apr 07 - 01:59 AM Well, Hazel, Jesus is or isn't the Son of God because he is or isn't - not because some book says he is. Do I believe what the Bible says? Yes, I believe the Bible is an accurate statement of the faith experience of believers who knew God through their faith. And yes, I am inspired by their experience and have learned from it and follow it, especially the life and teachings of Jesus. Is it an accurate historical document? No, but it certainly has great historic value. Is it an accurate scientific or paleontological document? Heavens, no. Is it an accurate moral guide? Well, it can be, with a good lot of understanding and interpretation. The words of Jesus from the Sermon on the Mount and Matthew 25 are a very good moral guide for everybody, believers and unbelievers alike, with little need for "interpretation. " The ancient Jewish laws are a mixed bag, and Paul seems to have some moral hangups. Are Allah and God the same metaphysical being? Yes, God has many names and many definitions - and all of those, while valid and worthwhile perspectives, are not adequate to describe a truly transcendent God who is also within us. Makes me think of When All Thy Names Are One, by Bob Zentz. I believe the Koran lists Jesus as a disciple of Allah I don't know that I would use that terminology because I come from a different faith tradition, but I can see truth in that. I've read parts of the Koran and found truth in it. I've read Sufi Islam poets like Hafiz and Rumi and found lots of truth in them. It's my understanding that the Koran considers Jesus to be a prophet of Allah. If so why are Christians and Muslims at war with each other? I think it's generally the fundamentalists who wage war because of religion. Fundamentalists, by definition, think in absolutes - and people who think in absolutes tend to be intolerant of those who think differently. If you read the Sufi mystics of Islam and the Christian mystics and the Jewish mystics and those who have found serenity in whatever religious tradition, you'll find they all say more-or-less the same thing - and peace and tolerance and justice for the oppressed are an intrinsic part of their lives. So, Frank, you don't think atheists think like fundamentalists? Agnostics certainly don't, but atheists and fundamentalists both tend to think in absolutes, in blacks and whites with no shades of gray, believing their view correct and all others incorrect. Atheists and fundamentalists have a very similar definition of God - again, defined in absolute terms. Atheists reject that God, and fundamentalists bet the farm on Him(/Her??). Those who are in the middle aren't quite so sure of themselves. Some have had what they consider to be experiences of God, and some haven't - but they just aren't completely certain either way. Those who believe in a God have varying levels of a foggy notion of something transcendent, something just beyond their grasp, something they are able to touch momentarily now and then - but in reaching and exploring, they find meaning in life and they find a reason to hold onto ideals and to strive for justice and peace. They express their faith in a different language, a language of song and story and poetry - not a language of logic and absolutes. Even though their faith may be very important to them, those people in the middle aren't going to want to convert you. They'll do their best to live their lives with integrity. If their way of living is attractive to you, they'll be happy to have you join them. If not, that's OK. On the other hand, it's very hard for such people to defend their faith, because their faith isn't expressed in the language of logical defense. It's something different altogether. All they can say is that if the way they live seems to make sense to observers, then maybe their faith also makes sense - that's about as close as they can get to defending their faith. Another thing - I think most believers on that middle path will admit to the possibility that there may be no God - that hasn't been their experience, but it's certainly possible. Vice-versa for agnostics. Can atheists accept that there may be a God? Can fundamentalists accept that there may be NO God? No, because they see things in absolutes. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Peace Date: 19 Apr 07 - 01:25 AM In some ways we are no further ahead of our ancestors who thought the world was ending because an eclipse took place. It was an omen. Todat, we have become aware through science that we actually could be wiped out either by chance (comet/meteor strike) or our own screw ups (pollution, starvation, war). We have grown in our understanding of how things work, but we have not grown at all in establishing any reason why things work at very basic levels. Eventually we get to the question of 'what causes life' or 'how can something so complex possibly exist'? And there we run into the wall. For all our sophistication, we have no answer. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: nutty Date: 19 Apr 07 - 12:54 AM So you have brought us full circle again Joe and the questions still continue. Is Jesus the son of God because the Bible says he was? Why do you believe what the bible says? I believe the Koran lists Jesus as a disciple of Allah Are Allah and God the same metaphysical being? If so why are Christians and Muslims at war with each other? Yes, there is a historical precedence for belief but again this could be explained, as I have stated previously, by the reluctance of the human psyche to stand alone. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:45 PM IF you don't see how that proposition is circular, Nick, then I can only wish you great comfort in your religion. A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:40 PM Just want to set the record straight and possibly head off religious intolerance. Frank |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:35 PM Straw man, straw man...you sure do love these threads. They're your natural home. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Stringsinger Date: 18 Apr 07 - 11:32 PM There is no fundamentalist atheist. That's religious propaganda. Non-belief is not a fundamentalist belief. You don't believe in atheism because atheism is non-belief. There is an insidious movement to condemn atheists by calling them "fundamentalists". This is not only a fabrication but suggests the intolerance of the religious community. There are no atheists that would call themselves "fundamentalists" but there are plenty of Christians who would apply that term to themselves. The Christians that use the term "fundamentalist" to describe atheism are enabling the Christian fundamentalists in their persecution of non-believers. After Christian homophobia comes atheophobia. Frank Hamilton |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Nickhere Date: 18 Apr 07 - 10:02 PM Amos: "Let's be fair here - God gave us a fairly sharp intellect if we care to exercise it and use it. Surely, Nick, the circularity of this expostulation is clear to you?" Err, no, not really Amos, sorry! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: John O'L Date: 18 Apr 07 - 09:38 PM "If there is a God. He's sadistic bastard." "(He) allows them to shed responsibility for their actions" These are themselves devices used to avoid considering that human atrocities and travesties are of human making. (Assuming there is a large-G God), why should he step in and bail us out every time we screw up? Where I come from we call that bludging. You, as an individual, learn as you grow to take responsibilty for your actions (or lack of action), and we, as humans have to learn to do the same. It's up to us, and the fact or fiction of a God has nothing to do with it. Natural disasters are another matter, but once again He can't be expected to give us a life through which we are always wrapped safely in his omniprotection. What would be the use of life like that? Is that really what you would expect of a benevolent God? Seems to me as if it would be pretty crappy. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:58 PM The Light of the World--mentioned above by Georgiansilver. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:54 PM Let's be fair here - God gave us a fairly sharp intellect if we care to exercise it and use it. Surely, Nick, the circularity of this expostulation is clear to you? A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 07 - 08:16 PM Well, Hazel - the dominating, destructive God doesn't seem to jive with the God of the New Testament. In Matthew 25, Jesus does speak of condemnation - of people who oppress the poor and the hungry. Those who enter heaven are those who feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, care for the sick, and visit the imprisoned. Notice that it doesn't say anything about sexual orientation or conduct, or about obedience to authority. Two millenia of believers have believed that this is what God wants them to do, so at least there's some historical precedent. And yes, two millenia of others have added a lot of garbage to the requirements. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Nickhere Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:44 PM Nutty: "But Nickhere .. how do you know what God wants you to do ??" Good question! Again, I have already posted some stuff on this on the mudcat thread I pasted above. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Nickhere Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:43 PM Nutty: "Because it allows them to shed responsibility for their actions eg GOD'S WILL" This is only one of many mis-conceptions about God and those who try and follow Him and His word. To the un-informed (and I mean this is the most well-intentioned way, and not as any kind of slur etc.) Christianity may indeed seem like a cop-out: e.g God is the 'brains'. But this overlooks the first fact: being a Christian means having to apply your brain more than ever (at least I found it did). Before becoming a Christian, I would ask myself 'what do I want / what do I want to do?" - and in fairness, this is a no-brainer. It's not exactly rocket science most of the time to know what you want. Plus it's possible to speculate endlessly and 'harmlessly' on the 'meaning of life' while just following your instincts all the while. On the other hand, knowing what God wanted required some real soul searching (no pun intended). I had to get to know Him, and then adjusting your life accordingly is no easy task, it makes lots of demands on you - demands that one might prefer to ignore. But it does bring a deep inner peace and contentment (maybe that's one reason to believe in God) though it's also a false notion to believe that people only have religion for 'comfort'. There are tough times, even when you're a Christian, life isn't all roses, and even if you know God is close, you still have to deal with tough times all the same and cry real tears. And it's no comfort to know that leading a bad life could leave you in danger of Hell! An atheist has no such worries. He can lead a good life or a bad life and it'll be all the same to him (or her) in the end. That could be very comforting to some...! What reasons does he have to lead a good life? Personal satisfaction maybe? Maybe there are others, if anyone wants to add some ideas? Christians will be called to account for their actions twice - once here in the eyes of men (i.e the world) and again after death, before God. Another mis-conception is that Christians believe they are 'superior'. They don't (at least not if they're good christians). They're happy that they've found God, no doubt about that. But they know they need God because they are sinners in the first place, imperfect people. Jesus gave the example of washing his follower's feet, and telling them 'you call me master, and yet I wash YOUR feet. If I, the master, do that, then so much more should you do it" (obviously washing feet was only an example of any act of kindness to another). As for religion as an excuse allowing people to conduct wars etc., It's true that many wars have been carried out in the name of religion. But look at them more closely and you will find other motives: the conquistadores were not motivated by religion alone but capital and profit. The fighting in Northern Ireland is often wrongly ascribed to religion - are you a catholick or a protestant? This totally ignores the socio-economic roots of the conflict: the supression of one half of the population by the other using the convenient tag of religion, but in reality having far more to do with the cultural origins of supressor and suppressed, civil rights, have and have not, power and who has it. People have killed in the name of many 'isms' .... look at the millions killed in the name of communism in China (10s of millions between 1949 and 1970s) Cambodia (2 millions under Pol Pot) Russia (30 or more million between 1920 and 1940s - under executions, enforced collectivisations, gulags, famines caused by government policy etc.,) That's only 1 'ism' Capitalism is killing millions around the world today in the name of 'Free Trade' and a global economy. Religions have no monoploy on death and suffering. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: nutty Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:18 PM But Nickhere .. how do you know what God wants you to do ?? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Nickhere Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:12 PM Tunesmith: "If there is a God. He's sadistic bastard" Why do you say that? You might like to check out what's been said on the topic already here: Mudcat God thread |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Nickhere Date: 18 Apr 07 - 07:09 PM Donuel: "god implies instant authority. Thats why there will always be someone who will claim that god told him who to elect, who to appoint and who to obey" I'm beginning to realise (though I supppose deep down I've known it for a long time) that America is a land of extremes: fundamentalist Christians and atheists alongside each other. A lot of the postings I've seen on mudcat relating to God (i.e reasons not to believe in Him etc.,) tend to boil down to the fact that his so-called 'ambassadors' have done such a dreadful job of 'representing' him. I'm thinking here of the religious far-right, who are in some ways similar to their Islamic counterparts. Then you have telly-evangelists swaggering about conning people out of their wages and appalling leaders like Bush invoking God before setting off on destruction and mayhem more befitting of Lucifer. No wonder people have such a terrible impression of God!! Of course they don't seem to stop and really check very often if God actually wants all of these things enacted in His name.... Someone coming along like Bush telling you God has commanded him to invade Iraq, yea, invade and put all its people to the sword... and assume this must be a bloodthirsty and awful God. Then there was that idiot US General a few years back (name eludes me) who said something along the lines of "well my God is bigger than his God" in reponse to some al-qaeda lunatic's threats. No sniggering in the back there...! Once again, there is something in the Bible about all this. Jesus said "Many will come in my name, false prophets, claiming 'I am He'....by their fruits you will know them" and also [on judgement day] "many will come on that day saying 'but Lord, didn't we cast out spirits and perform wonders in you name?' And I will say to them 'away from me you evil doers!" He was warning us against counterfit Christians like those above and telling us to look at their deeds rather than merely their words and not to take them as being representative of either Him or his message. Let's be fair here - God gave us a fairly sharp intellect if we care to exercise it and use it. Surely we are smart enough to distinguish between what God says He wants us to do, and what telly-evangelists and the Dubya's of this world tell us He wants us to do? If the police told me the law said I had to do this or that, the first thing I'd do is go and read the Law for myself to see if it were actually true. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: nutty Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:50 PM But what really does the damage Joe is the belief ... the absolute certainty that whatever their belief, they are right and others are wrong and that they are allowed to think this way because of the power that their 'God' gives them. Yes you can argue this round in circles but that is the problem with dealing with a metaphysical being. Someone who has no substance ... whose existence can't be proved (there go those circles again). It's because human beings have the power of thought and have the ability to rationalise that they also have this need to absolve themselves of responsibility for their own actions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:26 PM I don't suppose I'd believe in a God like that either, Hazel. But maybe belief in a God could help us believe in the possibility of lasting justice and peace and generosity and an end to poverty in a world where that sort of stuff is clearly impossible. I suppose those who believe in power and violence and domination, have a god of power and violence and domination. I don't think that sort of god coincides with the God of the founding documents of most of the major religions, including Christianity. In The Great Transformation, Karen Armstrong says almost all major religions are founded on some form the the Golden Rule, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." I suppose all this is a circular argument. Those who believe in a dominating, destructive God rightly condemn such a God. Those who believe in a loving God rightly have a different perspective. -Joe- |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:23 PM Of course He did, Bill...it's His way of "finding himself"!! :D A |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Bill D Date: 18 Apr 07 - 06:06 PM Little Hawk...you miss the point again. *I* have no definitions of God, narrow or broad. All I do is question other's definitions. I comprehend why somone would have a definition that indicates an anthromorphic old fellow who sits in 'Heaven' and answers prayers about who to support in a war... and concerns himself with swallows and saves an occasional victim in a plane crash......I doubt their vision...but it is easy to comprehend. I also understand if someone claims there was a sentient being/spirit who clapped his hands and 'made everything', then sat back and watched. It has a certain allure, but I see no way to ever find out if it is true. But I don't even see any content in the assertion that somehow 'all existence' MEANS 'god'....if you say it with enough inflection in your voice, it can 'feel' meaningful, I suppose...and there's certainly no law agin' it.....but there's no law agin' saying "huh?" when someone 'explains' the idea, either! I guess I feel as compelled to question assertions as you do to make them....maybe 'God' made me do it...*grin* |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: nutty Date: 18 Apr 07 - 05:51 PM Why should anyone believe in 'God'? ............................... Because it allows them to shed responsibility for their actions eg GOD'S WILL It gives them power over the actions of others eg. DICTATING GOD'S WILL It allows them to commit atrocities in his name and yet feel no guilt. eg RELIGIOUS WARS/ INTOLERENCE It allows them to feel superior and special eg GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE It allows a heirarchy to make control the masses by blackmailing them into behaving in a particular way. eg HEAVEN and HELL |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Why should anyone believe in 'God'? From: Amos Date: 18 Apr 07 - 04:57 PM Ha! You're not the real Jesus!! The real Jesus would never say that. A |
