BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 06:30 PM

Jim Carroll, World Champion Point-Misser -- as usual!

~M~

Nemmine, Jim: it's that ole ❤-in-right-place that matters -- what we all luvya-4!

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 03:14 PM

"As that is precisely what this thread is about, that is what every poster to it is doing, by definition."
No it isn't Mike - it is yet another revelation of how a Church, given enough power, will abuse that power.
That is not scoring points - it is making sure it can never happen again.
Yousr suggestion implies that those who brought it to world attention in the first place did so to "score points"
Pretty much on par with a mutual 'friend'.
Rather be silly than sick, thanks all the same.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:49 PM

Scoring points from dead children? If it is about anything, it is about questioning the right of the Catholic Church to be in charge of children and vulnerable adults, given their track record in living memory of most of us here.

Point scoring from tragedy I leave to the likes of you Michael. You seem far better at it than me, Jim or any other decent member of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:44 PM

"Stop trying to score points out of the deaths of children"
.,,.

As that is precisely what this thread is about, that is what every poster to it is doing, by definition.

Don't be silly, eh Jim?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 12:45 PM

Concern over this and other matters is not people picking on Catholics. I am a practicing, although not a "good" Catholic and I am as disgusted as any. I encourage everyone to read bishop accountability abuse tracker each and every day. There is so much more coming out..we are starting to hear from other parts of the world, Australia is revealing more and more about Vatican interference for one thing...mg

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 11:04 AM

Missed a bit - just so we can put an end to this distasteful interlude
Joe wrote:
"My home's septic tank is a huge, sturdy concrete vault that looks very similar to the concrete vaults used in graveyards. It would not necessarily be an inappropriate grave."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 10:56 AM

"placing children, in death, in shit-holes (no matter how magnificent),"
For crying out loud Keith - if you are going to try and score points out of this disgusting affair, have the sense to read what had been written before you make a complete arsehole of yourself - haven't you got yourself in enough trouble by just selecting the bits that suit you?
I actually wrote:
"I raised the matter only in response to your appalling suggestion that any place designed to dump our shit is a suitable one to dispose of maltreated children -"
I then went on to produce the archaeological evidence of what these vaults might have been.
I have since been pointing out that the 'septic tank' issue is a diversion from the real issue
Stop trying to score points out of the deaths of children
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:26 AM

We haven't seen anything proactive from the Church either, Joe, just blather, flim-flam and flannel. If I had 800 bodies buried under my land, I'd be acting, making arrangements for the matter to be sorted out permanently.

Let's look at this right-wing now. If ever there was a case for accusing Rome of bowing before vested power and influence, this is it. It starts among the Cardinals - they are the self-selected candidates for the top job, and so what starts as a desire for perfection, becomes infighting between them. We then meet the next layer down, the Bishops. They would love to become Cardinals, but can more easily be destroyed by them, and so become sycophants. At the same time, they also hold the Parishes under a thumb of iron, lest by acting autonomously, they open the way to destruction. The result is an authoritarian heirarchy.

Alongside that, you often find a shadow fellowship of family. I find it really surprising to find how often the people who rise high in the Church come from families who are high in the secular world, to an utterly feudal degree. I thought it might have just been Belgium, but I'm now dealing with another European monarchy at top level and it's the same. The result is you have to nail both Church and State to get anything to change, they protect each other. Thus it is we see power corrupting, and absolute power corrupting absolutely, the perfect recipe for right-wing diktat.

There must be a limit to toleration, as liberality is abused in this way. Every time this kind of thing has happened - and it has been current for eighteen years now in my adult life - the liberal wing has allowed the right wing to hide behind it. You have turned the cheek the requisite seven times, you have told your brothers they are wrong, and still it continues. It must stop.

The Biblical foundation for the damnation of child abuse is the start of Matthew 18, but the Chapter goes on to cover all of this in great and specific detail. Taking the grace of forgiveness and using it for evil is exactly what it deals with, and is all part of the same sick spirit.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:21 AM

The septic tank story is the way this came in the new originally. Sensationalist? I don't know, pretty solid news outlets like RTE reported it that way, based, one assumes, on the fact the area was marked on some older maps as 'septic' tank.

As soon as more clarity came to the issue this was corrected.

My own issue with this news was the priest who came on the original news item to say there was nothing to see there, just move along, it's all old stuff anyway. And I wasn't exactly the only one who took offence at that, if some of the comments locally are to be taken into account. I must stress here that the downplaying of the situation came well before there was more clarity so it's fair to say it was the kneejerk reaction some would expect. There was, at that point, no call for clarity or looking into the matter just the denial anything untoward could have come to light. And that's where this thread started.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 09:16 AM

Jim,
P placing children, in death, in shit-holes (no matter how magnificent),

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:47 AM

I only asked what Catholic left meant Joe? It was a question, not a debate. It sounds a bit of an oxymoron, that's all.

My comment comparing membership of a religion with membership of an indoor pub sports league is an interesting analogy. To oppose and remain corporate at the same time takes some doing.

I suppose that the detail of how the regime starved babies and treated women as second class for having them needs further investigation. But for some on here to assume that as the detail of the septic tank scenario being somewhat inaccurate means those disgusted at the church and it's wicked ideas need to apologise for something?

Eight hours solid sleep each night. No problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM

"You lapped it up gullibly enough Jim."
No I did not - remember golden rule, brain in gear before opening mouth.
I was the one who pointed out that the burial sites were possibly historical tombs - and produced the article stating the same - (08 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM)
I don't expect a withdrawal from you - you don't go in for that sort of thing.
" I really had thought that the two of you would be capable of reasonable discussion, but I guess that's not possible."
Would you please indicate where anything I have written is in any way unreasonable?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:10 AM

the 'septic tank' burials were a headline-grabbing ploy, largely by the gutter press

You lapped it up gullibly enough Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 05:03 AM

Jim Carroll and Musket, I really had thought that the two of you would be capable of reasonable discussion, but I guess that's not possible.
Too bad.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 03:32 AM

Catholic left?

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 03:10 AM

"born-again know-nothings"
Your case would be far more palatable if it wasn't accompanied by smears such as this
The 'Know Nothings' were established to denigrate the Irish people fleeing the Famine, those commenting here are criticising church bodies for their behaviour towards vulnerable human beings.
You have already linked these criticism to atheism - now you are presenting it as an attack on Catholicism - it is neither.
It is a condemnation of the appalling de-humanisation and abuse of many thousands of sick and distressed people by bodies which were part of an all-powerful church - the excuse for that behaviour was that their victims were "sinners" who deserved nothing more.
There are more then enough established facts for you to deal with - deal with them before you dig yourself in even deeper and lose the respect of those of us who still regard you as a decent person.
"admitting that the septic tank might not contain any human remains"
Old news Boo-boo - the 'septic tank' burials were a headline-grabbing ploy, largely by the gutter press - they have long been established as not a factor in all this, except to those who wish to divert from the main issue, which is the maltreatment and deaths of thousands of people.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Jun 14 - 02:12 AM

Despite the allegation from our unknown Guest, I haven't seen any recent statements from the Catholic Church denying the conditions at the mother and baby homes. Indeed, Archbishop Martin of Dublin called for an investigation of Tuam and the other Mother and Baby Homes. It really doesn't pay the Catholic Church to deny anything that's factual anymore, so they've stopped doing that for the most part.

We of the Catholic left want to know the facts of the conditions in these institutions, but we can't make use of unsupported allegations or information that is clouded by slanted language. We think the Catholic Church should be a place that fosters critical thinking and supports free will and a spirit of generosity. We don't want to go back to the authoritarian atmosphere that existed before Vatican II. I think it is that authoritarianism and the clericalism and judgmental spirit that goes with it, that fostered the harsh conditions in the mother and baby homes and the Magdalene Laundries and the industrial schools. There is a strong conservative movement in the Catholic Church. I don't know why, but they want to gain back the severity that was so prevalent in the Catholic Church before Vatican II. They made great advances during the lengthy reign of John Paul II, 1978-2005. They lost some ground during the reign of Benedict XVI, and they've been really worried since Pope Francis took over in March 2013.

But you born-again know-nothings* who make such a ruckus here, make no recognition of the different forces active within the Catholic Church, and you see it all as monolithic and therefore uniformly to blame for everything bad done in the name of the Catholic Church.

I don't think the conditions in these institutions were quite as dramatically bad as some of you would like people to think, but I think it's clear that these institutions were deplorable. There are strong forces within the Catholic Church fighting to see that such deplorable situations never happen again in my church - but to win that fight, we need to make use of factual information, not Know-Nothing propaganda.

-Joe-


*Know-Nothings, for those of you who don't know: Wikipedia will tell you the Know Nothing movement was an American political movement that operated on a national basis during the mid-1850s. It promised to purify American politics by limiting or ending the influence of Irish Catholics and other immigrants, thus reflecting nativism and anti-Catholic sentiment.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 02:53 PM

And by 2014 the Church had still not learned to avoid denial when faced with hard facts. Nothing to be seen, move along...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: bobad
Date: 24 Jun 14 - 12:17 PM

The Associated Press last week issued a lengthy correction admitting that the septic tank might not contain any human remains at all; the wire service had also incorrectly reported that the children hadn't been baptized because they were born out of wedlock. Other media outlets have been slower to dial down the hyperbole. Britain's Guardian newspaper amended a headline on an opinion piece, removing the "dumped" claim, but most outlets have left their fact-free speculation to stand.

The truth is not entirely clear, but we know this: 796 babies are buried somewhere on the site of the old Bon Secours sisters' home, which operated between 1925 and 1961. The records clearly show that. It's also true that these institutions, into which unmarried women were placed by their families, has a higher infant mortality rate than the general population. In the 1920s, children born to unmarried mothers, mostly living in institutions, were six times more likely to die than children living at home with married parents. By the 1950s, they were three times higher, and by the 1960s it was equal, says historian Lindsey Earner-Byrne, author of Mother and Child: Maternity and Child Welfare in Dublin, 1922-60.

That Story About Irish Babies Buried in a Septic Tank Was Shocking. It Also Wasn't Entirely True.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM

"These stories have been so shrouded in name calling and posturing, that it is impossible to sort out the truth."
That is the point Joe - the truth has been a matter of record, certainly on the clerical abuses, the Industrial Schools and the Magdalene Laundries, for a long time now - the Government has put its hands up to its part in them and compensation has been paid, largely by the taxpayer.
What remains is to ascertain there is a full recognition of why these things took place and that they can never happen again
In order for this to be possible, the church needs to acknowledge its part and pass on all necessary information, mainly to give the victims and their families some sort of public recognition that what happened was wrong - closure.
That has yet to happen.
The only posturing that has taken place here has been that by and in defence of the church.
There has always been a danger that this could be put down to the Catholic religion (pretty much the way things have been labelled 'Muslim' elsewhere.   
Whatever my personal beliefs on religion, I have no wish to see Catholic members of my family or friends and neighbours implicated in any way - they were victims of the church's unacceptable behaviour, as were those who suffered and died in the Homes, industrial schools and Laundries.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 07:29 PM

Catherine Corless is the amateur historian who first brought the story of the 796 unmarked graves to light.
Ms Corless obtained death certificates for all 796; deaths listed were influenza, convulsions, tuberculosis, measles, whooping cough, meningitis and other illnesses. Infections spread rapidly in these institutions. (The death certificates were examined by The Irish Times.)
She did not find any burial records.
The burial was first described by boys (interviewed by Corless) who levered up a slab the size of a coffee table and found small skulls (they guessed about 20).
The buildings had been a workhouse before it was taken over by the sisters. In back was an area labeled septic tank on maps of the site.
The graves are in a part of that area.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 06:28 PM

Well, Jim Carroll, despite what you may presume about me, I am really interested in finding out the truth about the Magdalene Laundries, the industrial schools, and the mother and baby homes. These stories have been so shrouded in name calling and posturing, that it is impossible to sort out the truth.
You cited a story above about the findings of an inspector in a mother and baby home in Cork, and it was a very believable story that was factually presented.
On 6 January, Catherine Corless posted a Facebook entry that was credible and unclouded with propaganda, and I think it's worthwhile to post it here:

The following is a synopsis of the research and essay that I wrote.
The Mother/Baby Home Tuam
The Mother/Baby Home in Tuam was opened in 1925 and was run by the Bon Secours Sisters to cater for unmarried mothers and their babies. This was an era in our history when pregnancy before marriage was deeply frowned upon by church, state and family. The unfortunate woman who found herself in this predicament was quickly sent to an institution such as the Mother/Baby Home out of sight of prying neighbours and relatives.
The Bon Secours Sisters were a nursing congregation who had come from Dublin to take charge of the hospital wing of Glenamaddy Workhouse, which catered for the destitute, old and infirm, orphans and unmarried mothers. These Workhouses had been instigated by the Irish Poor Law since the 1840's, but now after the Treaty, the Irish Free State reformed the whole system and put in place administration on a county basis, so that separate arrangements were made for the aged and infirm to go to County Homes, and for the unmarried mothers and orphans to go to institutions.
All Workhouses were closed, but it was decided that the one on the Dublin road in Tuam would be chosen as a Mother/Baby Home. The Home building itself was in a good structural state but needed quite a bit of repair. The Sisters and some of the mothers and children began the task of clearing and cleaning, and by the end of the year 1925, all were ready to move in. Dr. Thomas B. Costello was the Medical Officer for the Home and the Rev. Peter J. Kelly, a grandnephew of the former Archbishop of Tuam Dr. John McEvilly, was chaplain.
The building belonged to Galway Co.Co. and they were responsible for repairs and Maintenance, and a capitation grant was paid to the nuns for the cost and upkeep of the mothers and babies, and for the salaries of doctors. A maternity wing was added some time later. The travel writer Halliday Sutherland visited the Home in the 1950's and it is worth quoting his review of the Home:
"The grounds were well kept and had many flower beds. The Home is run by the Sisters of the Bon Secours of Paris and the Reverend Mother showed me around. Each of the Sisters is a fully trained nurse and midwife. Some are also trained children's nurses. An unmarried girl may come here to have her baby. She agrees to stay in the Home for one year. During this time she looks after her baby and assists the nuns in domestic work. She is unpaid. At the end of the year she may leave. She may take her baby with her or leave the baby at the Home in the hope that it will be adopted. The nuns keep the child until the age of seven, when it is sent to an industrial school. There were 51 confinements in 1954 and the nuns now looked after 120 children. For each child or mother in the Home, the Galway Co.Co. pays £1 a week. Children of five or over attend the local schools. The whole building was fresh and clean."
Haliday Sutherland, however, did not interview any of the resident mothers or helpers. Had he done so, he would have got quite a different story to the one he was told. During my researching the Home, I spoke to some mothers who gave birth there and their account of their confinements speaks of long unattended labours without sight of a Sister or midwife, it was only during the birth that a nurse was in attendance with only the help of an untrained resident. The doctor gave one examination when the mother was first admitted and that was the last they saw of him. No drugs of any kind were ever administered to help with pain, no kindness ever shown. Only mothers who had the ability to pay £100 for delivery services were allowed to leave after the birth. It was a condition that all others must wait a full year
in the Home filling domestic duties, cooking, cleaning, minding the babies and children and tending to the gardens. The mothers did not have the choice of keeping their babies as outlined by the writer Halliday Sutherland. Seeing that their confinement in the first place was a hush-hush affair, no family would allow a daughter back home with a baby, as Irish Catholics in those days were in fear of a much distorted doctrine by the Catholic Church that the unmarried mother had committed a heinous crime. It is also to be remembered that the man who had fathered the child was never villainized or held responsible. Neither did the Irish state at that time offer any support for the unmarried mother.
The late John Cunningham, former editor of the 'Connaught Tribune' spent his early days in the Tuam Home, as his mother died in his infancy, and in an article which he published in the 'Connaught Tribune' April 1998, he speaks of the cruelty of the system which allowed the separation of babies from their mothers.
In his article entitled 'Emotional minefield of the rights of mothers and adopted children from the Ireland of yesterday', John relayed the conversation he had with a woman who had spent most of her life in the Home: 'What were the young women to do? Many weren't wanted at home, they were ostracised by society.
In those days a young woman could not become pregnant and stay at home. It was as simple as that. I saw the devastation when they were parted from their children. They nursed the child and looked after it for a year and then they went one way and the child stayed to be adopted or to be boarded out a few years later. I don't know if any of them recovered from the heart-breaking parting. It was heart rending'.
For the children who were not adopted from the Home, they attended the Mercy Convent N.S. or the Presentation N.S. once they reached the age of 5. They were brought down to the schools in a line and always left a little earlier in the evenings, to ensure that there would be no integration with the other pupils. The sound of their heavy clogs making their way up the Dublin road is a memory that resonates with most people. After they made their first communion, many of the children were fostered out by families. There was an allowance per week from the Government at the time, and a yearly clothing allowance, provided to those families for the care of the children. Unfortunately, there was no vetting system in place to check on the suitability of those families to take those young vulnerable children, and many of them were sent to uncaring unscrupulous families who spent very little of the allowance on them. Many of the children were treated little better than slaves, but had to remain with the families until they reached 16 years of age after which many of them emigrated to England in the hope of a better life. Some of the children fared a little better, with the foster family accepting them as one of their own, and some even inherited the farmsteads they were sent to.
The Home was closed in 1961 as it had fallen into a dilapidated state. The children who had remained there were sent to the Industrial School in Castlepollard, Co. Westmeath. The Home and grounds remained vacant for a number of years, except for the rear building which was used by 'Bontex' who made school uniforms. In the early 1970's the whole building was demolished to make way for a new housing estate. When I started my research into the Home, I spoke to some of the residents who had moved into this housing estate on the Dublin/Athenry road,
and they indicated that there was an unmarked graveyard in an area at the rear of where the Home once stood. It was believed that it was an angels plot for unbaptised babies, but further in my research I discovered that in fact, many children and young babies were also buried here. I was astonished to find that there was no formal marking or plaque to indicate that these children were buried there. I decided
to contact the Registration Office in Galway to check for deaths in the Home. I was dismayed to find that in fact the number of children who died in the Home during it's existence 1925-1961 numbered nearly 800. I now have all those children's names, date of death, and age at death, which will be recorded into a special book.
It just did not seem right that all those children lay there unnamed forgotten.
Hence, I made contact with the Western Traveller and Intercultural Development (WTID) and a committee of interested people emerged, all with the view that some sort of Memorial should be erected in this children's graveyard in dedication to their memory. Our committee is named: 'The Children's Home Graveyard Committee'
We introduced our Project to erect a Memorial to the children, to the Tuam Town Council at one of their meetings, and got a unanimous decision that they would help us with some funding when they get their 2014 Grant Allowance. The Heritage Council have also promised to help but have cautioned us that Heritage Grants have been cut for 2014. Our fundraising is ongoing as it will take a large sum to complete the whole Project, i.e. to erect a proper Monument, clear the pathways into the graveyard, and to maintain the area with flowers and shrubs etc., A St. Jarlath's Credit Union account has been set up for anyone who would like to contribute to this very worthy Project.

That's what I'm looking for, Jim - factual information.
I'd also suggest reading the Ryan Report, http://www.childabusecommission.ie/rpt/ExecSummary.php. This report gives very credible details of the cruelty in the industrial schools, which were primarily operated by orders of religious nuns or brothers.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:10 PM

Jim, I don't think it is humanity which has disappeared here, just that there are limits to how much a Church which claims divine inspiration can take refuge behind it. If it didn't, and never had, then perhaps there would be a case, but if you set high standards to everyone and fail to measure up to them yourself, then you'll find yourself accused either of hypocrisy or of being away with the fairies.
I'm not saying the ideals are unachievable, they are achieveable but only by direct inspiration, not by organisational measures. The test is objective, can they really do the exceptional? I'm qualified to criticise because I not only have, but do, to a level which is mundanely incomprehensible. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
In this instance, the proof is that the pudding was putrid. The solution, to clean the shop. It's not happening and the Spiritual Health Inspector's closing the shop as a result.
#it humanity were to be applied, then the starting point is to recognise the problem and sort it out so it can never recur. The Pope has it in him, in theory, but does he have the bottom to succeed in practice? If he were thirty, then he would have time to progress at the measured pace he is taking, but he isn't, the clock's ticking, and the hand is writing on the wall, Mene Mene Tekel Upharsim.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 08:46 AM

"putting your creed"
Sorry Guest - I don't go along with this, though Mr Offer (to be even more formal) would love it to be the case.
Since we moved to Ireland the churches here have gradually emptied in the light of the revelations, even in the somewhat conservative west - good Christians have simply walked away from their church.
I understand that some of the churches in Dublin are now in trouble due to the difficulty in recruiting new priests.
We spent forty years recording devout Catholics and, while not sharing their beliefs, it was impossible not to respect their faith and their humanity - it was part of the joy of working here.
It is this humanity that is missing from this discussion and it is the lack of a decently contrite response from the church which will lower it even further in the eyes of the faithful.
I shudder to think of how all this would have effected some of the older singers we recorded, admired, and in some cases, regarded as close friends - all wonderful human beings.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:36 AM

It was real data which started this, Joe and nothing but nothing has been done by the Roman Church to add anything to it. Instead, you wriggle and twist in an utterly discreditable manner, putting your creed who we know and don't love before the Joe Offer we know and love. The latter is someone real, the former something which has disappeared so far up its own philosophical posterior as not to know any longer where its arse and its elbow are. Yes, it would be wonderful if Rome could get back to where it should be, but to do that you need to get rid of everything baleful from the past - and that includes some dogma about the priesthood. The infamous pairing of Papal Infallibility and Apostiolic Descent producing the sense of priestly infallibility behind the unaccountability. The suppression of confession in the Confessional, busibody monitoring of fellow-believers gone insane. At root, it is an absence of faith in the power of God to affect real change for good, usuroing his authority for one's own career prospects.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 05:33 AM

Well Joe Offer - since you appear to insist on addressing those who disagree with you in a hostile manner.
The conditions in the Magdalene Laundries are far to well known to repeat, and if we did, you would, no doubt, accuse us of rubbing the church's noses i past sins.
The link was intended to highlight the problems that the victims of these slave camps had in getting recognition of, let alone recompense for their suffering at the hands of members of your church.
The victims you were referring to had spent their lives in these hell-holes and were too old to be returned anywhere other than to be placed in the hands who would take care of them (ongoing revelations having made further mistreatment and neglect unlikely).
That church bodies should take on responsibility for such victims cannot considered anything but an obligation on the part of the church - not by any stretch of the imagination a kindness.
Contemporary eye-witness accounts of the conditions in the mother and childrens' homes
My and others here's disgust of the behaviour of those left in charge of the most vulnerable, is not that of a "born again atheist" but that of human beings - I wonder how long it will take for those who carried out or oversaw these abuses to ascend to that level - or do only the holy psess that particular quality.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM

Well, Jim Carroll, no matter what you think, I believe the truth is far more effective than all the dramatic posturing. Tell the truth, and tell it in proper context. Otherwise, I might begin to think that all you can do is spout propaganda.

There were comments made about the septic tank story just before the message I posted, and I felt it appropriate to respond. I'm glad to see you finally concede that the septic tank story is false.


You gave me a link to a Website, http://www.magdalenelaundries.com/. I went to the Website to find information about treatments of the residents of the laundries. I clicked four or five links, but didn't find any information about conditions in the laundries. I'd really like to see factual information, but please direct me to more specific locations.

Here (click) is a story about a Magdalene Laundry that closed in 1993. The story says, "When the laundry closed its doors in 1993, Madge and other women being held in the laundry were moved to a new building but remained under the care of the Good Shepherd nuns."

Seems to me that by the time these institutions closed, people realized that they were places of cruelty, so efforts were made to improve conditions at the end. I haven't found complete data on the Tuam home, but I have read several articles about the death rate, including this one. It appears that the death rate was very high during the early years of the institution, as high as 50 percent during one year. Then the death rate went down, and then went up again during World War II. And one report said that of the 796 deaths, 10 were due to malnutrition.

forbes.com has an interesting view of the perceptions of this whole story. It's worth a look.

I have no doubt that the actual data will determine that the conditions at Tuam and other institutions were unacceptable. But I want to see real data before I form an opinion.

I do have to say that it's entertaining to watch the moral outrage of all our born-again atheists/agnostics. The sound very suspiciously like born-again Christians with their outrage and their moral superiority. I guess they have the right to do that because they disowned their ancestors and covered up the skeletons in their closets and made sure they didn't have Jews or other unacceptable elements in their dart clubs. But they say the same exaggerated things about Catholics that the fundamentalists and snake handlers have been saying for years.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: akenaton
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:44 AM

What a predictable response from Ian.

It says everything about who and what he is.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 04:04 AM

If The Yorkshire Indoors League of Darts, Dominoes, Cribbage and Putting Ferrets Down Your Trousers decided at their AGM to set up a system of abusing young women, I'd want to see evidence that such a motion was not only overturned but that the proposers were asked to leave.

Otherwise, I'd have no option but to resign myself....

I would still get pleasure out of saying 15/2 15/4 and the odd 5s & 3s, but I wouldn't be able to represent my pub in the league, that's all. I would disassociate myself rather than say that they don't represent members, because in actual fact, they would...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 03:07 AM

"So far, no septic tank has been found."
The septic tank claim was laid to rest (more decently than the children were) some tome ago - it is you who has kept it alive to divert from the real issue - the horrifically inhuman treatment of "sinners" at the hands of those calling themselves Christians, with the full collusion of the Irish Government - that is, and has always been the real issue.
"many of the remaining residents moved to convents and were cared for by nuns for the rest of their lives."
Your sanitised view of what happened to the Magdalene girls can be found in full here - I suggest you follow all the internal links - they make for uncomfortable reading.
MAGDALENE LAUNDRIES
When I was growing up, my main impression of the church was one of sin and guilt - It would be good to witness contrition from the groups that were the direct cause of such suffering - precious little has been in evidence so far, especially from those involved in the laundries.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:47 AM

Musket, this story of 800 babies thrown into a septic tank spread all over the world, but yet most of those babies were buried in earthen graves and the death count was 22 per year. So far, no septic tank has been found.

There are statements above in this thread about how babies were starved to death by the nuns who ran these institution, but there were only ten babies who died of malnutrition over 36 years - and no information how that malnutrition occurred.

I would think that any religion that has "love thy neighbor" and "preferential option for the poor" as basic teaching, ought to do an excellent job running institutions such as the mother and baby homes and the industrial schools and the Magdalene Laundries - but they didn't, and that is a scandal and a shame. From what I've read, the environment for the young people in these institutions was harsh and uncaring, very much like basic training in the U.S. Army was for me. For the most part, there was no systematic cruelty, but the clients of these institutions were treated as having done something wrong that they had to pay the price for - very much like they were in a penal institution.

Such an environment is fertile ground for abusive personalities, and there are records of many employees in some of these institution who were abusive.

But for the most part, the stories are not as dramatic as the demagogues would have you believe. And the stories are the same all over the world during that period. The workhouses of England were just the same, and England also had mother-and-baby homes that were similar to those in Ireland. Sinclair Lewis wrote of poor people in the U.S. who were treated similarly.

And it wasn't all bad. After the last of Magdalene Laundries closed in 1996, many of the remaining residents moved to convents and were cared for by nuns for the rest of their lives.

But it's true that if the Catholic Church believes what it preaches, it should have done a far better job with the institutions under its care, and it failed to do that.

Hello, my name is Joe Offer.
I am a Roman Catholic. I was brought up Catholic, and it is the religious tradition where I feel at home.
Yes, I know it's fucked up, and it's not perfect like your life; but it's an essential part of my life and it's where I feel at home.
Get over it.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 22 Jun 14 - 02:15 AM

"It was 1925, not 1926."

Oh, that's alright then. The catholic approach to children is off the hook if that's the case.

Move on, nothing to see here.

zzzzzzz

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:53 PM

@DaveMC
Kindly do us the service of reading the thread before you come plunging in at the end of the debate with a load of nonsense. We went back to source and found that there was quite enough to go on pending the excavation of the site, if it ever happens, and even without, the way those kids were treated throughout their lives reduces this so-called religion to a den of sadists. OK, there are those who have not have lived virtuous lives within the fellowship, very many more than those who have not, but by not kicking out those who parasitise them, they are thereby giving aid and comfort to their abusers.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,davemc
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 08:32 PM

Associated Press has issued an apology for its misleading reporting of this issue. Most of the major "shock! horror!" aspects of the story seem to have been fabricated and then subsequently picked up and embelished by other news agencies:

"In stories published June 3 and June 8 about young children buried in unmarked graves after dying at a former Irish orphanage for the children of unwed mothers, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that the children had not received Roman Catholic baptisms; documents show that many children at the orphanage were baptized. The AP also incorrectly reported that Catholic teaching at the time was to deny baptism and Christian burial to the children of unwed mothers; although that may have occurred in practice at times it was not church teaching. In addition, in the June 3 story, the AP quoted a researcher who said she believed that most of the remains of children who died there were interred in a disused septic tank; the researcher has since clarified that without excavation and forensic analysis it is impossible to know how many sets of remains the tank contains, if any. The June 3 story also contained an incorrect reference to the year that the orphanage opened; it was 1925, not 1926."

(source: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100277164/associated-press-apologises-for-its-incorrect-reporting-of-the-tuam-babies-scandal/ )

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 03:12 PM

Well, we have a step forwards, folks. The Pope has excommunicated the Mafia ne masse, after the Ndrangheta killed a three year old in Calabria in an execution shooting targeting his grandfather. His exact words were "It must never again happen that a child suffers in this way."

Now, your Holiness, if you would be so kind as to repeat the exercise on the denizens of your own Halls of Infamy, we might start getting somewhere. Oh, and ensuring they actually apply your first instruction might be a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jun 14 - 04:11 AM

A bit more on mortality rates at the various mother and baby institutions. One, and I read it correctly this time, clocking up a 50% infant mortality rate between 1924 and 1931 resulting in 662 deaths in that period. Mortality rates for 'illegitimate' children were five times those of children born within marriage.

Irish Times rticle

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Musket
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 08:00 AM

In Northern Ireland, which is part of The UK, it is very difficult to get an abortion, even in cases that would satisfy the terms of The Abortion Act 1968. Hitherto, it has meant a trip on a ferry to a hospital in Scotland or England, as we are all NHS contributors and recipients.

A recent ruling has meant that in future, women from Northern Ireland will have to pay. Add the ferry / flight on top etc, and you begin to see the problem. Most women who would travel for termination are, measured by their funding authority, so we can distinguish between and find the NI ladies cared for on mainland Great Britain include victims of rape or domestic violence, (34% for 2011/12 as opposed to 11% overall for UK.) Not always the most upwardly socially mobile of women for such an expense. The procedure privately has a going rate, I am informed of circa £560.00 plus any accommodation and after care. (Price of a small hospital whose overall price list I happen to have.)

Not exactly boutique abortion or abortion as a form of contraceptive is it? For every one of these to register in that abuse category, (HRG in NHS speke) it would mean police and social services input. It doesn't allow for those who refused social assessment, sometimes because they were afraid for when they returned.

Even in The UK then, where despite an official religion (Anglican) we see a separation of church and government, Northern Ireland lets superstition reign with church inspired abortion regime and legislation to oppress gay people. Not to mention a first minister, lead politician and all that, applauding and defending a bigoted pastor who called other religions evil.

Yeah, California may be land of the free (unless you are of Mexican extraction) but the rest of the world has superstitious hang ups Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 06:39 AM

contraceptive trains

corrected link from previous post. Sorry about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 06:29 AM

I add to Jim's post this wiki entry on contraceptives in Ireland

And some memories of a few of the women who rode [url=http://www.rte.ie/archives/exhibitions/1666-women-and-society/459015-condom-train-and-women-in-the-media/]contraceptive trains[/url]of the 1970s and were arrested for bringing in contraceptive contraband from the North.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:33 AM

"It's had for me to believe that condoms were impossible to get in Ireland"
Condoms we virtually impossible to get outside the cities - Ireland is a rural country
Sex does not work by a rule book - it is often a spur of the moment act - it was a sin to contemplate birth control.
The forbidding of birth control was an act ob barbarism considering that large families was the main cause of poverty and hardship among the lower classes.
The grim irony of all this is while the church was dictating the sexual behaviour of the faithful it was ignoring and often facilitating the rape of children.
As far as I am able to find, even today, the only compromise the modern church has considered on the subject of contraception, is in the cases of the spread of AIDS, and that, reluctantly.
The church continues to prove itself unfit to guide, let alone dictate on sexual matters.
Jim Carroll

"Ignoring the mountain of evidence, some maintain that the Church considers the use of contraception a matter for each married couple to decide according to their "individual conscience." Yet, nothing could be further from the truth. The Church has always maintained the historic Christian teaching that deliberate acts of contraception are always gravely sinful, which means that it is mortally sinful if done with full knowledge and deliberate consent (CCC 1857). This teaching cannot be changed and has been taught by the Church infallibly."
THE CHURCH AND BIRTH CONTROL

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:33 AM

Thinking about this a few more minutes Joe I actually am getting very angry about this. So the church allows abortion under certain circumstances? How to explain the church's reaction to legislation, allowing for abortion in very limited circumstances to save a mother's life, proposed after the Halapanavar fiasco?

That reaction spoke of dismay when the bill was passed see here and had the Cardinal threaten with legal action if this bill meant church run hospitals would have to perform abortions in cases like the Halapanaver one, i.e. to save the mother's life.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:06 AM

And again I'll say: Joe, not in Ireland. Please look beyond your own local experience and the most liberal minded best case scenario. Reality is all too often different.

And again I'll refer to the Savita Halapanavar case, how recent do you want the experience to be, who was told 'we're a Catholic country, we can not give you an abortion' .

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 04:02 AM

One wonders, MG, whether they really mean that, or whether they actually mean they want to impose (ie tax) themselves on all. Parasites are as parasites do.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 14 - 03:58 AM

Joe, however reluctant you may be to usurp God's judgement, we have judgement to be able to exercise free will, and it is there to be used. Not using it is actually using it, in deciding not to. So being reluctant to pass absolute moral judgemnent is deciding to be morally permissive, and this is the result. Being a moral prude is the opposite extreme.
As has long been said, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. There are many good men in the Roman Church, it is time they acted to purge it of those who are looting it, both morally and literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 10:55 PM

Troubadour says: Come on Joe! You know as well as I, or any other who was raised as a Catholic, that the Church back then did not permit contraception, or abortion even when abortion was to save the mother's life.

Well, Troubadour, the Catholic Church has always had exceptions for the cases when an abortion would save a mother's life - but there has been a lot of misunderstanding of that exception, even among priests.

As for the Catholic Church not permitting contraception, that's true - and it's a rule I have always ignored myself. However, for the life of me, I can't understand why anyone would worry about following a rule against contraception, while ignoring a rule against extramarital sex. That's close to the height of stupidity, like setting the house afire but carefully making sure to turn off all the lights before leaving. And in my memory, contraceptives were always available even when they were not supposed to be available. It's had for me to believe that condoms were impossible to get in Ireland. Marijuana is illegal under federal law in the U.S., but is anyone willing to say it's impossible to obtain?

As for abortion, I don't know if there will ever be agreement on that issue. If you believe that human life begins at conception, you most likely would be very unwilling to end that life during pregnancy. If you believe life begins at birth, you most likely will have a different opinion of abortion.

As for me, I don't know when life begins, and I think it's a matter of opinion that has no firm answer. Therefore, I mourn the loss of life or potential life that takes place in abortion, but still believe it is the pregnant woman who must make the final decision.

I don't think it's immoral to oppose abortion, or to support abortion. Still, I think that abortion is reason for grieving the loss of life.

I don't think in absolutes, and I'm very reluctant to pass absolute moral judgments against other people. I don't walk in their shoes.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 08:54 PM

well it is only pretty recently that they declared that heaven was open to all...

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 08:21 PM

... taking life by deliberate neglect.

Ah, but then, ya see, 'twas God's will.

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: Ed T
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:43 PM

In heaven, all the interesting people are missing." 
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:39 PM

@Pleiades Pete
Matt 18:14 ...your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should perish. So killing kids is against God's will.
Matt 18:6 ...it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. and a pretty gruesome fate awaits them.
Matt 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. namely hell-fire.

Which to me is pretty categorical that no redemption for them is possible.

The idea that Heaven is accessible to all is yet another piece of Roman apostasy. The number of texts which say otherwise is considerable, and it is clear that not all are chosen (Matt 22:14).

Subject: RE: BS: Dead babies and Tuam Bon Secours nuns
From: GUEST,Troubadour
Date: 19 Jun 14 - 07:06 PM

"And Stim's tie to the hypocrisy of modern anti-abortionists is a bit anachronistic, I'd say. I'd agree that hypocrisy is alive and well in the so-called "pro-life" movement, but modern pro-lifers are unlikely to be in favor of burying dead babies in a septic tank."

Come on Joe! You know as well as I, or any other who was raised as a Catholic, that the Church back then did not permit contraception, or abortion even when abortion was to save the mother's life.

How does that gel with delivering live babies and deliberately allowing them to starve to death because they were illegitimate?

How they disposed of the bodies, while horrific, is a side issue.

The point is that those who professed an absolute concern for preserving life, were at the same time taking life by deliberate neglect.