BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 07:54 AM

Every time one of these scumbag ministers makes one of of his scumbag statements he is reproducing a microcosmic Nuremberg Rally
Can't remember the Jewish writer who said that, but isn't it the case?
More "Bollocks"

AND ANOTHER - this time from Haaretz
ARABS TO THE GAS CHAMBERS
CELEBRATING DEATH OF CHILD BURNED ALIVE IN ARSON ATTACK

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 06:27 AM

Well, I think I can say without fear or favour that neither you, Jim nor I believes that axes are to be taken to Arab heads in Israel any time soon. I can also say, without fear or favour, that you, Jim and I are in agreement that the remark was made by "some twat of a politician." Just trying to spread a little harmony here, that's all....

Now when some "twat of a politician" says something stupid and untimely like that, we quite rightly pick them up on it and criticise them for it. All three of us, in our own differently sweet ways, have now had a pop at the detestable Mr Lieberman. So, Teribus, what I'd like you now to do is to 'ave a little word in Keith's shell-like and tell him that Naz Shah was being stupid and untimely when she made those ridiculous posts about moving Israel to the US. She was definitely being a twat of a politician, wasn't she? So when a proven twat of a politician then says something that fits nicely with your agenda, for example that they said something antisemitic when they didn't really, probably to save their skin, then we should really suspect that they may just be continuing to be a bit of a twat of a politician and not, as Keith would have it, the bearer of the sword of truth...


Just sayin'....

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 06:21 AM

"That is bollocks too.
"More denials of news reports and even films"
You may be an apology for a human being - but by gd, you are #a worse propagandist - you deny photographs, films of the events and photographs - they is both brandead and lazy
Where is your evidence that these have been manufactured?
1000 SUPPORT SOLDIER WHO EXECUTED PALESTINIAN
"Among the sea of flags and signs, one read "My honor is loyalty" – the motto of the Nazi SS. Last night was the latest example of the genocidal current running through Israeli society, one that has support from the grassroots to the parliament."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 04:45 AM

" Of course he wasn't saying that Arab heads would ever be cut off."

Got that Jim!

Call for Genocide 2016
Jim

That is bollocks too.


Celebrating deaths of Palestinian children
Jim Carroll

Need I say, more bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 04:24 AM

Should have blue clickied this - unmissable
Celebrating deaths of Palestinian children
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 03:50 AM

"Politicians say lots of things that they do not mean "
Then we have to take them by their actions
These are public statements made by senior politicians
You make an enormous issue of blogs by non politicians who later became politicised, yet you write off those made by leading Israeli statesmen - once again, without proof, of course.
The pair of you appear to have appointed yourselves unofficial spokesmen for these monsters - unless you have a regular pay-packet coming in, of course.
Do you actually have any evidence that these people don't mean what they say? -
I've asked Keith to provide evidence for his Jewish plot theory - none has been forthcoming - I've got sore fingers asking you to back up your claims with actual evidence - once again - nowt.
Likewise with asking you to provide facts and figures for you Labour Party accusation - th silence is deafening.
You seem to fill your tank with a string of excuses for a regime whose behaviour is open and obvious.
You a a self-appointed bunch of atrocity deniers - and not very good at it.
"How on earth could anybody have their heads cut off by Israeli Government Policy when no such Policy exists?"
How on earth can you make excuses for a Govenment that includes these people.
No - I don't believe for one minute the Israelis woud do such a thing - they would never get away with it - even their bosom buddies in the U.S. wouldn't be able to back them on that one.
THEY ARE INCITEMENTS TO RACE HATRED AGAINST A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE IN ORDER TO DRIVE THEM OUT OF LAND THEY HAVE OCCUPIED FOR MILLENIA - IT IS PART OF THE ETHNIC CLEANSING CAMPAIGN THAT HAS BEEN TAKING PLACE FOR A LONG TIME
And isn't it just working - you choose to ignore the calls for genocide by the tel Aviv mob - not worth a comment.
Here's a film of Israelis celebrating the fact that Palesininan schools http://www.redressonline.com/2014/07/watch-israelis-celebrate-the-slaughter-of-palestinian-children-call-for-murder-of-israeli-arab-legislators/ becaus "there are no children left in Gaza"
Incitement to race hatred is a crime in Britain - it is rife among Israelis and you scumbags excuse it.
Above all, all these incidents are living (or dying) proof of the accusation is becoming ot has bencome a fascist state.
A few more facts to be ignored or denied.
"DECENT DEMOCRATIC" cover-up ]
Evidence of War Crimes HAARETZ
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 02:40 AM

Steve Shaw - 21 Oct 16 - 05:11 PM

Of course he wasn't saying that Arab heads would ever be cut off.

You know and realise that Steve, I know and realise that - BUT Jim Carroll DOESN'T he believes it to be Israeli Government Policy just because some twat of a Politician said it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 22 Oct 16 - 02:32 AM

Jim Carroll - 21 Oct 16 - 03:35 PM - Complete and utter bollocks Jim - as usual - Politicians say lots of things that they do not mean and know full well will never happen. They are said to placate the various groups they address and are as changeable as the wind. they also change what they say for "domestic" consumption and then state something else entirely for "international" consumption.

Besides Jim, Avigdor Lieberman said opponents of the Israeli state "deserve to have heads chopped off with an axe". NOT "Should have their heads cut off" - there is a massive difference. He made that statement on 3.09.2015 and I do not think that since making that comment the Knesset has even debated let alone voted on reintroducing capital punishment in Israel - so answer my question - How on earth could anybody have their heads cut off by Israeli Government Policy when no such Policy exists?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 07:45 PM

Call for Genocide 2016
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 05:11 PM

Ridiculous post, Teribus. Of course he wasn't saying that Arab heads would ever be cut off. But Keith's suggestion that it was a "figure of speech" is equally ridiculous. It's a lot more than that and Keith, as ever, in "putting Israel's side of the story," is trying to trivialise a lousy, rotten racist remark from a lousy, rotten, known racist. The remark is a symptom of the fact that the man is sick in the head and has no place in a supposedly responsible administration. He exposed himself via his own words. He's not been the only one in successive Israeli regimes either, has he?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:35 PM

"An Israeli Minister says that all disloyal Arabs should be beheaded. Must be true an Israeli Minister said it."
If it is published and not disproved - yes
"it must also be Israeli Government Policy."
If they (two of them_ attain and keep high office, it must have the Government's blessing
Are you suggesting that it is proper for ministers who made such statements to hold office?
"An Israeli Minister said that as well."
Nope - the report set up by the Government said that one and the man they found responsible was later appointed Prime Minister - so the Government must have approved of that one - the world said they were guilt so we don't take the Israeli's word for it anyway..
"Only problem with the former is that under Israeli law capital punishment "Israeli law dos not cover massacres of unarmed civilians or refugees, doesn't stop them from happening regularly
If they made a difference, the Israelis would abolish them the same as they are calling for the abolition of the International court
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:22 PM

Using Steve Shaw's logic, on points raised by Jim Carroll:

If an Israeli Minister says something it must be true and it must be fact, it must also be Israeli Government Policy.

An Israeli Minister says that all disloyal Arabs should be beheaded. Must be true an Israeli Minister said it.

An Israeli Minister says that Israel was not responsible for the Sabra-Shatila Massacres. How about that one Jim? An Israeli Minister said that as well.

Only problem with the former is that under Israeli law capital punishment does not exist so how could Arabs "disloyal" or otherwise, or anybody else in Israel be sentenced to death in an Israeli Court. Now in Gaza under Hamas completely different story.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 03:08 PM

"Does Israel behead anyone?"
"Is it Israeli policy to behead opponents?"
"Why do decent countries have anything to do with such a barbarous regime?"
Why do decnt countrie
s sell weapons to terrorist States - For money and political influnce, Keith, for money and plitical influence
Did the minister say it?
Can yuo produce one single statement claiming it was a figure of speech - no you cannot - you are lying again
Yes there has. We have the testimony of many senior Labour members and leaders."
The produce their descriptions of that antisemitism
If you can stop yourself from lying for a single minute.
How do you think a jury would react if an accuser stood up and accused someone of a crime and said "!I'm not going to tell you what h has done
You are a stupidly dishonest antisemitic toad.
Jewish Pact of Silence - how racist can you gt?
Another statement for you to deny
Holocaust threat to Palestinians
An Israeli minister today warned of increasingly bitter conflict in the Gaza Strip, saying the Palestinians could bring on themselves what he called a "holocaust".

"The more Qassam [rocket] fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger shoah because we will use all our might to defend ourselves," Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defence minister, told army radio.

Shoah is the Hebrew word normally reserved to refer to the Jewish Holocaust. It is rarely used in Israel outside discussions of the Nazi extermination of Jews during the second world war, and many Israelis are loath to countenance its use to describe other events.

The minister's statement came after two days of tit-for-tat missile raids between Hamas militants in the Gaza Strip and the Israeli army. At least 32 Palestinians and one Israeli have been killed since the surge in violence on Wednesday.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/feb/29/israelandthepalestinians1
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 02:51 PM

Jim,
"Whoever's with us should get everything," Lieberman said, in reference to the loyalty of Israeli Arabs, who make up some 20 percent of Israel's population. "Those who are against us, there's nothing to be done – we need to pick up an axe and cut off his head.

As is obvious to any rational person, that is a figure of speech, or is there only one person, i.e. "him."

Does Israel behead anyone?
No.
Is it Israeli policy to behead opponents?
No.
Why do decent countries have anything to do with such a barbarous regime?
Because it is all bollocks!

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 02:45 PM

Jim,
Here has not been a shred of evidence to show antisemitism in the Labour Party

Yes there has. We have the testimony of many senior Labour members and leaders.
It is ludicrous to suggest that they are all lying, which is your only case Jim.

For crying out loud Keith, please respond to the facts put up or go away

Put up the facts one at a time and I will respond to them.
I believe I already have, but I am prepared to humour you.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 01:52 PM

Not a very nice person, this Lieberman chap, is he, Keith? Care to put "his side of the story" for us?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 11:39 AM

KEITH HAS DENIED THIS
Jim Carroll
"Israeli foreign minister says disloyal Arabs should be beheaded
By Ishaan Tharoor March 10, 2015
An ultra-Orthodox Jew looks at an election billboard poster in Russian that translates to 'Death Sentence to Terrorists,' and underneath, 'Right On Lieberman' in Jerusalem, 01 March 2015. (EPA/JIM HOLLANDER)
Avigdor Lieberman, Israel's foreign minister and the head of a right-wing, Israeli nationalist party, is known for his fiery rhetoric. But he possibly crossed a line during an election rally in the city of Herzliya on Sunday.
"Whoever's with us should get everything," Lieberman said, in reference to the loyalty of Israeli Arabs, who make up some 20 percent of Israel's population. "Those who are against us, there's nothing to be done – we need to pick up an axe and cut off his head. Otherwise we won't survive here."
Lieberman, the head of the Yisrael Beitenu party, may argue he was speaking in biblical metaphors -- his comments carried allusions to the Book of Esther, reports Haaretz. But they are deeply provocative, and reflect Lieberman's known antipathy for the Israeli Arab population.
The foreign minister's comments in the past have led critics to accuse him of racism. These include his calls last year to boycott Arab businesses that had shut their doors in protest of Israel's bombing campaign in Gaza, as well as a proposal made last November suggesting Israeli Arabs be given "economic incentives" to leave their homes in Israel for the West Bank.
Unlike some other politicians on Israel's right, Lieberman is staunchly secularist. His brand of nationalist populism is anchored among Israeli Jews who emigrated from countries in the former Soviet Union, where he himself was born.
Lieberman's reference to beheading is particularly garish given the wider context of the region. The jihadists of the Islamic State have carried out the grisly act on hostages throughout the past year in the war zones of the Middle East. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu singled out the group's savagery in a speech last week in Washington, equating its worldview with that of Iran, his main geopolitical foe.
Netanyahu's Likud party even ran a campaign ad warning that, should his centrist and center-left opponents win in upcoming elections this month, the door will be open for the Islamic State to infiltrate the Jewish state. Lieberman's party could once more partner Likud in a coalition government after Israelis go to the polls.
After Lieberman made his controversial remarks, an irate Arab Israeli legislator demanded an investigation into the comments and labeled Lieberman as "Jewish ISIS," referring to another term for the Islamic State."

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 11:26 AM

Well how happy I am that you see Naz and Jezza as wielders of the sword of truth! That you're so respectful of them! May I interest you in joining the Labour Party as a pensioner member? Only £1.96 a month! Come and join us, Keith, and I'll see if I can't get you a free pass to join Momentum!

Just give over, will you, with your sanctimonious "respect." If there's one thing you've proved over the years here it's that you have no respect whatsoever for the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:26 AM

Why the hell do you do this Keith?
You are presented with a mass of facts, you completely ignore them and repeat the same old-same old like a pre-recorded message, over and over and over..... again.
It is exactly what ***** up these discussions
The facts man - the facts
Here has not been a shred of evidence to show antisemitism in the Labour Party unlss you include criticism of Israel
That comes from Jews - perhaps they are part of your "plot"!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:15 AM

For crying out loud Keith, please respond to the facts put up or go away
If you hav any problem with those facts, please deal with them and stop misrepresenting the situation with meaningless quotes.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 10:02 AM

Jim,
"The right-wing bum-wipe press, the Anti-Corbynites and the pro-Israeli propaganda team (including their handful of representatives on this forum" AND CORBYN AND SHAH HERSELF!!!)" dishonestly presented the idea as Shah's antisemitic attack on the Jewish People."

You and Steve would rather claim that she and Corbyn and the NEC are all lying about this, but I find it easier to believe that they know what they are saying and you two have got it all wrong again.
I can see why you might lie about it.
I can not see why they would all lie to smear their Party with anti-Semitism where there is none.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 09:52 AM

Steve and Jim,
I don't care about what Jeremy Corbyn said about what she said. Naz Shah and Jeremy Corbyn are politicians.

You seem to regard them and the NEC as congenital liars, determined to brand Labour guilty of anti-Semitism where none exists.

I have more respect.
I see no reason for them to lie, nor any reason to disbelieve them except that they all contradict you Steve!

Why should we believe you over them?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 06:01 AM

Took you a long time to come up with that twist, eh, Teribus? You've just done what you accused me of doing in the self-same post. If she meant Jews she would have said Jews. There are plenty of refugees and descendants of refugees who are not citizens of Israel. As ever with you lot, an extrapolation too far. I suggest that you're telling us what Naz Shah SHOULD have said, in order to make your smears easier to stick, then taking her to task for it. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 04:38 AM

ANOTHER INTERESTING JEWISH VIEW of ANTISEMITISM
To be ignored by our incumbent Regime-rooters, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 04:30 AM

Naz Shah took a the genuine proposal of a Jewish academic and suggested it as an answer to the conflict - the map she used was Finklestein's ans was the original idea.
There was no animosity towards either the Jewish or the Israeli people - any animosity was aimed at the Israeli leadership - simple as that - as the Israeli regime have branded all condemnation of its policy"Antisemitic", that is what Shah was accused of and, I would guess, for the sake of making the issue go away, that is what she admitted to and apologised for.
The right-wing bum-wipe press, the Anti-Corbynites and the pro-Israeli propaganda team (including their handful of representatives on this forum) dishonestly presented the idea as Shah's antisemitic attack on the Jewish People - some even headlined it as a demand for the forcible TRANSPORTATION of all Israelis.
It was not her idea, it was not malicious and it was not antisemitic.
Any antisemitism in all this comes from those who would blame "The Jews" for the actions of the Israeli regime - the foremost of those being that regime itself.
It also comes from the member of this forum who suggested a pact of silence on the part of the Jewish Politicians in order to protect what they claimed to be a party with a large antisemitism problem (not forgetting his two supporters, of cours - credi where credit's due)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 21 Oct 16 - 01:34 AM

Steve Shaw - 20 Oct 16 - 09:52 AM

Well Teribus, no doubt if you went to a Naz Shah speech you'd be sitting at the back shouting "Yah, boo, you lying bloody leftie! Red scum! You wouldn't know the truth if it reared up and bit you on yo' sweet socialist ass!" But when she pronounces on her "antisemitism," why, she must be spot-on accurate! Sword of truth! So which is it to be? 😂😂😂

So let me get this right. You tell me what I would say THEN take me to task over it???? What's the matter Shaw, is that really the best you can do? Pathetic and utterly ridiculous.

Unless you hadn't noticed I have been quoting and commenting upon what the person in question actually DID SAY, not what I thought she might say.

Oh by the way she did not mention Jews she mentioned Israelis (8 million people made up of 6 million Jews, 1.6 million Arabs and 400,000 others) Now as she also stated that those who originally lived there could get their land back that means the Arab citizens of Israel would not be required to move doesn't it? So her comments were directed solely at the Jewish citizens of Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 06:39 PM

I didn't mention Arabs. You did. I didn't mention Jews. You did. Naz Shah didn't mention Jews. You did. We have to wonder whether this is something to do with your rather sick obsession with making the Jews collectively responsible for the actions of the Israeli regime, which makes you such an antisemite and such an enemy of the Jewish people. Naz Shah was CLEARLY referring to a solution to the political problems caused by the Israeli REGIME (idiotically in my opinion). I don't care about what she said about what she said. I don't care about what Jeremy Corbyn said about what she said. Naz Shah and Jeremy Corbyn are politicians. They are doing what politicians always do, in this case, indulging in damage limitation. They are breathing the polluted political air, just like they all do, the whole bloody shebang. Actually, they do it clumsily and with rotten timing, but at least they do it without spin. Look where spin has got us in the last couple of decades. I am giving you MY unvarnished opinions. You see, Keith, you have never, ever, done that, even though this is supposed to be a discussion forum. You unfailingly appeal to authority, all the time, every time. Naturally, you only appeal to the authorities that are in line with your own prejudices and bigotry. And you wonder why you get abuse and name-calling. Actually, no. You love it, and you do it to attract that abuse so that you can come here and act like the abused innocent. In other words, you are a troll.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 03:01 PM

You have had the quotes Keith - want them again?
Happy to oblige
You might try here
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:02 PM
Jim Caroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:46 PM

Steve,
If she apologised for antisemitism she was doing it to save her own arse. There is nothing, NOTHING antisemitic in the above,

She had already been reinstated when she made her statements acknowledging that her ignorance of Jewish history had led her to make anti-Semitic statements.
Corbyn also found them anti-Semitic, so what is your opinion worth Steve?


And you lied by stating that she called for "Jews to be transported out of the Middle East." She said no such thing. Israel does not equal Jews.

No. You pretend to believe that she meant Arabs should be transported to another continent, but obviously she did not, and her acknowledgement of the anti-Semitism of her statements, and the same acknowledgement from Corbyn and the leadership prove it.

JimI assume we have finished with your "Bollocks" claim regarding the two Israeli extremist ministers

No. They simple do not say that however many times you quote them not saying that.

Kevin,

If she had been talking about her beliefs as being antisemitic that would be a different matter. But in fact she specifically has said that she is not herself antisemitic.

She said what she believed. Now her beliefs have changed as she has been educated about Jewish history.
She is not an anti-Semite, just ignorant.
Her ignorance led her to make anti-Semitic statements.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 10:26 AM

"In determining what is regarded as unacceptable and offensive, then the definition comes from the person or group suffering and noting the offence, it most certainly is not defined by those doing the offending."

So no room for objectivity at all, then? 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:52 AM

Well Teribus, no doubt if you went to a Naz Shah speech you'd be sitting at the back shouting "Yah, boo, you lying bloody leftie! Red scum! You wouldn't know the truth if it reared up and bit you on yo' sweet socialist ass!" But when she pronounces on her "antisemitism," why, she must be spot-on accurate! Sword of truth! So which is it to be? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

The fact that Naz Shah said that her remarks were antisemitic is not actually conclusive as to whether they were or not.

If she had been talking about her beliefs as being antisemitic that would be a different matter. But in fact she specifically has said that she is not herself antisemitic.

However her views as to whether what she wrote was actually antisemitic have no more evidential force than those of others.

It is clear that she was not making a proposal as to what should actually happen, any more than the Jewish critic of Israel, Norman Finkelstein, whose writing she was drawing on, and whose illustrative map she used.

Antisemitism is a real and terrible thing, and it needs to identified and opposed - but extending the meaning of the term in the way that has been done does not help in identifying and opposing, and in fact has the reverse effect.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:45 AM

This is a crass argument
What do you do when one group of Jews accuses another group of Jews of crimes in the name of Judaism - as is now happening regularly in Israel
Each accusation has to be taken on its merits, not on who it offends.
you have just been given a long statement on Labour antisemitism which contradicts everything that is being claimed - by a Jewish member of the Labour Party
How do you make up your mind without knowing all the facts?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:32 AM

"n determining what is regarded as unacceptable and offensive, "
So if a young black lad says "you're only arresting me because I'm black", we have to take his word for it?
That's the basis of Israeli defence
Do I have that right

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:25 AM

Hate to point this out to you Kevin but what "you suggest" she meant is irrelevant.

The professor himself is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 08:25 AM

In determining what is regarded as unacceptable and offensive, then the definition comes from the person or group suffering and noting the offence, it most certainly is not defined by those doing the offending.

Amen!

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 04:41 AM

Sorry Teribus - I attributed both postings to you - your arguments have become indistinguishable
I doubt if you will respond to any of the points anyway
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 04:37 AM

"Do you portray Israelis as monsters? "
No - we present their leaders as monsters.
""Israelis are gleefully killing children"
No - who has?
" Do you target Israel's very existence? Do you say things like "Israel has no right to exist" "
No - who has?
"Do you single out Israel for alleged human rights violations?"
No - we point out that they occur when thy occur, as
we do with every other atrocity and injustice.
The fact that others commit atrocities dos not legitimise Israeli regime behavior.
"Do you make excuses for terrorism when Palestinians do it while wholeheartedly condemning Israeli violence?"
No - we deal with things that are happening as a whole - for instance, we point out that Palestinian terrorism is no different than the acts carried out in by the Israelis in order to win a homeland - most of my quot comne from Israelis and other Jews and from Human Rights Groups - they are my favourite source.
I never seek the opinions of politicians AND I HAVE NEVER USD THE SILENCE OP POLITICIANS AND STATES TO MAKE AN ARGUMENT
"And, most importantly, do you criticize to hurt Israel and her citizens, rather than aiming to find peaceful solutions that benefit everyone?"
No - where has this ever happened?
Can you give me myy marks please - I make it 10 out of ten for all of us.

I have given the history of Shah's comment - you choose to ignore it
Shah made her suggestion based on two previous suggestions made by two Jews in order to seek a peaceful solution to the prevailing situation - it was not an attack on the Jewish people, it was a reasonably thought out, if impractical suggestion.
By the old definition, that suggestion was antisemitic.
The Israelis have torn that definition up by attributing their behaviour to the Jewish people as a whole - claiming criticism of their actions is "antisemitic" does just that.
Your above list of questions carefully avoids that aspect of antisemitim
If the old definition is no longer valid an new on needs to be reached.
"Nadiya Al-Noor" is a Muslim who has converted to Zionism and has taken up the Israeli cause against the Palestinian People.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 20 Oct 16 - 02:19 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 19 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

"I would suggest that Shah was not making a genuine proposal as to what should happen when she wrote that."

Hate to point this out to you Kevin but what "you suggest" she meant is irrelevant. The lady herself declared that SHE regarded and recognised her remarks as being anti-Semitic and stated that they were made in ignorance based on misinformation, and that Kevin is the alpha to omega of what Naz Shah said. No-one is interested in what others say to try and tidy that up and sanitise it.

In determining what is regarded as unacceptable and offensive, then the definition comes from the person or group suffering and noting the offence, it most certainly is not defined by those doing the offending.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 09:54 PM

Nadiya Al-Noor
Yesterday at 11:36am ·

Israel is not above criticism. Like every country, it has its flaws, and we need to address them in order to make the country better. However, there are legitimate ways to criticize Israel's policies, and there's "criticism" that's actually seeped with antisemitism.

Here's how to tell if your "criticism" is actually antisemitism:

Demonization: Do you portray Israelis as monsters? As cold, unfeeling, hateful entities? Do you use common antisemitic tropes, such as "Israelis are gleefully killing children" "Israelis are stealing all the money" "Israel controls the world's media" "Zionism is racism" etc.?

Delegitimization: Do you target Israel's very existence? Do you say things like "Israel has no right to exist" "Jews have no roots in the area"?

Double-standards: Do you single out Israel for alleged human rights violations? Do you cry and scream about every little thing Israel does, but are largely silent about other conflicts and issues in the world? Do you make excuses for terrorism when Palestinians do it while wholeheartedly condemning Israeli violence?

And, most importantly, do you criticize to hurt Israel and her citizens, rather than aiming to find peaceful solutions that benefit everyone?

If you answered "yes" to any of the above, congratulations, you're an antisemite!

It's okay to criticize Israel, but only if it's legitimate criticism based in facts and with the intent to solve problems (which should be the rule for criticism in general).

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 12:55 PM

Have we finished here Teribus?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:34 AM

"why do you, McGrath and Carroll insist that they were not."
Can't speak for Mac, I insisted no such thing - I in fact pointed out that she apologised for it and admitted it was antisemitic for her so suggest it.
I certainly query whether it was, as it was not aimed at the Jewish People, but if it is, it in no worse than Israeli ministers demanding beheadings or a war against all Palestinians.
She has apologised, theirs remain as stated.
Please do not accuse me of holding opinions that I don't.
One thing about all this of course is that Shah did not invent this proposal, nor did she demand that it should be anything but voluntary - there has never been a suggestion that the Israelis should be expelled from the area.
The idea was first mooted by Jewish professor, NORMAN FINKLESTEIN a Holocaust survivor descendant and it was his map that has been reproduced in the press (without having been identified, of course).
It follows on from an early suggestion that Israel be made a STATE of the U.S. which would "enable them to relocate anywhere in America if they wished"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:05 AM

That was directed at Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 11:03 AM

Well as I've pointed out to Keith in the past, when it suits you we lefties are dishonest, bigoted liars. Except when we say something that happens to suit your agenda, when we suddenly become inviolable holders of the sword of truth. Like Naz, I'm a leftie. I think she was stupidly wrong to make those remarks. I think she was right to apologise. I think she was wrong to apologise for their being antisemitic, because they were not. I can only think that she wanted to save her own arse. She wouldn't be the first politician to do that and she won't be the last. Even we principled lefties are not incapable of that.

And it's you lot quibbling, not me. It's you who want the definition broadened. She didn't mention Jews and she clearly didn't mean Jews. The problems she was suggesting solving (idiotically) were brought about by the Israeli regime, not by "the Jews."

Anyway, if you and Keithie think she was so correct in identifying antisemitism, why don't you solve your little definition problem and get Naz Shah to define antisemitism for you ? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 10:59 AM

I would suggest that Shah was not making a genuine proposal as to what should happen when she wrote that. Essentially she was trying to make a point about the hypocrisy of those who expect people in the Middle East to accept something which they would never accept for themself.

It was indeed a badly expressed way of making that point. Steve is correct however in pointing out that she was making no specifically antisemitic point. The fact that the predominant number of Israelis are Jewish is contingent - what was significant was that they are a population of settlers parachuted into a region, to displace and replace the existing population. Ironically of course, that is precisely how the United States came into exisrence.

However in the light of history, it was a very insensitive way of putting it, and she rightly apologised. The fact that she did not challenge the claim that it was antisemitic, while denying that she had any antisemitic intentions, merely indicated that she was willing to accept a definition of antisemitism which is very much open to challenge. Which in fact is what this thread is primarily about.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 09:46 AM

Steve Shaw - 19 Oct 16 - 06:39 AM

"There is nothing, NOTHING antisemitic in the above, yet this is your favourite example.

What a pity for your argument that the person you referred to thought that the comments were anti-Semitic - Perhaps you can explain how on earth you can claim to know what is meant by someone better that they themselves can.

Naz Shah herself put her exposed anti-Semitism down to misinformation and ignorance on her part. She very publicly apologised for the remarks and withdrew them unreservedly no quibbles at all about Jews, Israelis or Israel - by her own admission her remarks were anti-Semitic - why do you, McGrath and Carroll insist that they were not.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:43 AM

And you lied by stating that she called for "Jews to be transported out of the Middle East." She said no such thing. Israel does not equal Jews. Further confirmation of that wicked conflation, and of why we should never trust a single word you ever utter.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:39 AM

Shah, who was elected MP for Bradford West last May, shared a picture of Israel's outline superimposed on to a map of the US under the headline "Solution for Israel-Palestine Conflict – Relocate Israel into United States", with the comment "problem solved".

In the post shared in 2014 – nine months before Shah became an MP – it went on to say that Americans would "welcome Israelis with open arms" and that the relocation would bring peace to the Middle East by ending "foreign interference".

The post suggested the US had "plenty of land" to accommodate Israel as a 51st state, allowing Palestinians to "get their life and their land back".

Alongside the post, Shah added a smiley-face emoji and suggested she would lobby the prime minister to adopt the plan.

It added that Israeli people would be welcome and safe in the US, while the "transportation cost" would be less than three years' worth of Washington's support for Israeli defence spending.

Shah added a note suggesting the plan might "save them some pocket money".

Well, Keith, that's the whole yarn as reported faithfully by The Guardian. Seven mentions of Israel/Israelis and NOT ONE MENTION OF THE WORD JEWS.

Naz Shah was extremely stupid to make those remarks. But you can only be antisemitic if you mention Jews or imply that Jews as a people are responsible for the issues you're pointing to. It's quite clear from the above that her flippant remarks were aimed at the POLITICAL PROBLEMS caused by Israeli policies, which are determined by the ISRAELI REGIME. If she apologised for antisemitism she was doing it to save her own arse. There is nothing, NOTHING antisemitic in the above, yet this is your favourite example. It's a perfect example of your conflating criticism of Israeli regime policies with attacks on Jews because they are Jews. You're trying to impose your disreputable "wider definition" that makes Jews collectively responsible for the actions of their regime, which makes no more sense than making all Brits collectively responsible for invading Iraq. It does make you an antisemite. You are the enemy of Jewish people the world over.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:33 AM

Sorry - missed a bit
Keith denies this, of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 06:03 AM

"She called for Jews to be transported out of the Middle East, "
She apologised, accepted it to be antisemitic and withdrew her statement
I assume we have finished with your "Bollocks" claim regarding the two Israeli extremist ministers.
Didn't expect an apology or a withdrawal - you don't do that sort of thing
Jim Carroll

Zionists have been calling for Palestinians to be expelled into neighbouring countries for years - here are a couple of spectacular example for you to deny
"Moshe Feiglin, a Knesset member from Netanyahu's ruling Likud Party, publicly called for the expulsion of all Palestinians from Gaza and their replacement with Jewish settlers, about as sparkling a call for ethnic cleansing as can be imagined.
Not to be outdone, Rabbi Dov Lior, spiritual guide of the illegal settlement Kiryat Arba took matters a step further. In an article from the Israeli press (Haaretz) the ultra-Orthodox rabbi issued a religious ruling permitting the total destruction of Gaza if Israel's military leaders deem it necessary. I believe that is called genocide. Yes, these are coming from the far-right of Israel's political spectrum, but that element is growing and its demented vision resonates with a growing number of Israelis."
From the COLORADO PROGRESSIVE JEWISH NEWS
20th July 2014