BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 19 Oct 16 - 04:53 AM

Kevin,
So far as I have seen the examples of anti semitism in this context (Labour Party) have all been essentially about criticism of Israel, or of people opposing those criticisms and defending Israel against such criticisms.

Really? I am not aware of any that were just criticism of Israel rather than anti-Semitism, so please give an example.

Steve,
Why, Keith, none other then your very favourite example, Naz Shah. She only mentioned Israel. Only since you asked.

She called for Jews to be transported out of the Middle East, and she and Corbyn acknowledged that her views were anti-Semitic, not just anti-Israel.
Have you got any example of accused anti-Semitism in Labour that was just legitimate criticism of Israel?
I think not.

Steve, anti-semites used to claim that Jews manipulate our governments.
Now that is not acceptable, they claim that a "pro-Israel lobby" manipulates our governments, just as you do.

You refuse to say what power they have over our governments.
The anti-semites used to claim that the Jews controlled the banks and the media. What is your version Steve?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:00 PM

Good link from bobad by the way ( ironic, eh? 😂😂😂) that shows the Tory scumbag Tim Loughton opportunistically homing in on Labour's " particular problems" with antisemitism. Loughton was, of course, the chairman of the select committee that delivered the antisemitism so-called report. Just thought I'd mention it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:43 PM

"If that is true, tell us which examples of claimed Labour anti-Semitism was really just criticism of Israel."

Why, Keith, none other then your very favourite example, Naz Shah. She only mentioned Israel. Only since you asked.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:35 PM

So far as I have seen the examples of anti-semitism in this context have all been essentially about criticism of Israel, or criticism of people who oppose those criticisms and who defend Israel against such criticisms. And my contention is that that is not evidence of anti-semitism.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:48 PM

So far as I have seen the examples of anti semitism in this context have all been essentially about criticism of Israel, or of people opposing those criticisms and defending Israel against such criticisms.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:02 PM

"Ha ha ha! You talk such ludicrous bollocks!"
Don't expect for one moment yu will either apologiese or withdraw your remark
BEHEAD DISLOYAL ARABS
ALL PALESTINIANS LEGITIMATE TARGETS
You have had both of these, your denying them again make you the dishonest individual you are.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 02:46 PM

The statistics are shocking but not surprising: Antisemitism is on the rise in Britain

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 02:34 PM

Jim,
She described criticism as the new anti-Semitism

Yes. She said that now criticism of Jews is not acceptable, anti-semites turn their hate on Israel instead.

That is not saying that everyone who criticises Israel (like the media and the opposition parties, unlike in neighbouring regimes) are all anti-Semitic.

The same woman proposed total war against all Palestinians
The foreign minister I linked to and you have ignored proposed that all "disloyal Arabs" should be beheaded

Ha ha ha! You talk such ludicrous bollocks!

Kevin,
they "direct their hate at Israel". Which is in practice how "antisemitism" seems to be defined within the current Labour Party moral panic.

If that is true, tell us which examples of claimed Labour anti-Semitism was really just criticism of Israel.
Please do not ignore that reasonable request as you did last time you suggested this.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:30 PM

Still no one talking about the subject.

IShe was talking about anti-Semites who direct their hate at Israel, and never suggested that anyone who criticises Israel is an anti semite.

But the only evidence that they were antisemitic was the fact that they "direct their hate at Israel". Which is in practice how "antisemitism" seems to be defined within the current Labour Party moral panic.

So it's all right to criticise Israel if you aren't antisemitic - but if your criticisms are more than minor, that proves you are actually are antisemitic.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:23 PM

"He's just lying, Jim."
Didn't think for a moment he wasn't Steve
Inconceivable they should warn you and ignore his hate mail
ISRAELI DEMOCRACY
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 01:11 PM

He's just lying, Jim. Had I been threatened for hate speech, which I have not, how would he know anyway? Desperate trollery from a liar who has abused people here via multiple identities. We can refer to him but I don't think there's any point taking him on. Perhaps one fine day he'll be history.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:43 PM

"Let me remind the folks again who has been threatened with suspension from the forum more than once for hate speech."
You mean you haven't
Yours are the mst vitriolic and cowardly postings on this thread, and your efforts to link Israel's crimes to the Jewish people make them the most antisemitic.
Duck - more vitriol on the way!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:20 PM

He's really lost it this time. That has simply not happened. Mad as a box of frogs.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 12:06 PM

Hate speech Shaw, like Land grabs, invasions, repression, massacres, apartheid wall... right. Let me remind the folks again who has been threatened with suspension from the forum more than once for hate speech.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:42 AM

If the powers that be here think that they are protecting freedom of speech by allowing bobad to come here making comments of that nature they are seriously deluded. Hate speech is in itself an attack on freedom of speech. I honestly don't think we should be responding to him, Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:23 AM

Finished Keith
She described criticism as the new antisemitism
All the links give exactly that as a headline
The is what she said, that is what she meant.
The same woman proposed total war against all Palestinians
End of story
The foreign minister I linked to and you have ignored proposed that all "disloyal Arabs" should be beheaded
Perhaps he meant only giving them a haircut!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 09:16 AM

Jim,
but that's what she said

No it is not.
She was talking about anti-Semites who direct their hate at Israel, and never suggested that anyone who criticises Israel is an anti semite.

It is undeniable, even by you, that Israel allows and welcomes criticism.

It is undeniable, even by you, that they have a free media. Haaretz is always criticising the government and their policies.

It is undeniable, even by you, that they have opposition parties in government whose job is to challenge the government, so your claims against Israel are false, and it begs the question, why do you not criticise those countries where it is true?
Why do you always and only single out Israel for your false claims and lying propaganda?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:34 AM

" that is a blood libel worthy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion."
Mumbo jumbo nonsense and not even accurate in Jewish lore.
Definition - "blood libel noun
an accusation that Jewish people used the blood of Christians in religious rituals, especially in the preparation of Passover bread, that was perpetrated throughout the Middle Ages and (sporadically) until the early 20th century."
That the Israelis massacred Palestinians who got in their way is beyond doubt and a matter of history.
The British left Palestine to the sound of occupied houses being cleared for settlement by hand-grenades being tossed in.
Israel has perpetrated and facilitated massacres throughout its history.
As far as I know, Steve has accused only Israelis of massacre - not the Jews.
Equating one with the other is antisemitic by definition
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 08:12 AM

According to Shaw the Jews invade their neighbours to massacre them - that is a blood libel worthy of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Like MGM would say "you don't think you're an anti-Semite but you are".

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:07 AM

That's what I've just said on the other thread. Oops, sorry, Teribus. I didn't say it. I typed it. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 07:01 AM

"Don't let them get to you"
They don't, but their presence here is an extremely helpful reminder of Pro Israeli fanaticism at its most extreme.
Trolls are fine when you don't have to take them seriously
I'm afraid the current "new racism" accusation against Labour makes the two threads inseparable.
Mayv#b we should get this out of the way by agreeing that criticism is not antisemitic and if that is what Labour is guilty f, thre is no case to answer.
Then we can move on.
How about my contention that, by definition, it is antisemitic to attribute Israelis actions to the Jewish People, therefore it is antisemitic to accuse those who criticise Israel of antisemitism.
In the long run, this is what this is all about
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 06:17 AM

Neither Keith nor bobad are worth responding to. Don't let them get to you. Their loveless inhumanity is incurable. Anyway, this is going a bit mental in two threads at the same time, thanks to them, which isn't much good, to be honest.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 06:11 AM

"Israel has never done any of those things."
Yes it has Keith - you can deny the statements made by the Israeli minister until you are blue in the face but that's what she said and that's what he meant.
She describes condemnation of Israeli policies as
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
THE NEW ANTISEMITISM
How many of these links do you want - there are pages of them?
The recent Labour report describes it as "the new Racism" - which amounts to the same thing
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 05:29 AM

Supporting a State that claims criticism of its actions are unchallenged and describes Israelis and Jews who do so as "Self-hating Jews"   - typically Fascism

Israel has never done any of those things.
Its neighbours, e.g. Turkey and Egypt, do lock up journalists critical of their governments, and in Russia they are gunned down in the streets, but Israel allows and welcomes criticism.
They have a free media. Haaretz is always criticising the government and their policies.
They have opposition parties in government whose job is to challenge the government, so your claims against Israel are false, and it begs the question, why do you not criticise those countries where it is true?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 04:52 AM

By the way Bobad
Equating Israeli behaviour with the Jewish People - typical anti-Semitic trope
Supporting a State that claims criticism of its actions are unchallenged and describes Israelis and Jews who do so as "Self-hating Jews"   - typically Fascism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Oct 16 - 03:36 AM

So Bobad has just put it in a nutshell
Criticism of Israeli policy is the "new racism" that is referred to in the Parliamentary report on The Labour Party.
Barnacle and Robo seem to go along with that - Robo appears to go as far as comparing Einstein to Hitler - have to say, I have never come across that one before!
The Labour politician, Naz Shah was cited as being antisemitic because she suggested that the Israelis be moved to America - she withdrew that statement, admitted that it was antisemitic and apologized for it - but that aside.
Now we have EBarnacle suggestions that the Palestinians have no right to land that has been occupied by them for many centuries - millenia even - because of a deal that was done between two Empires - a deal between two absentee landlords, as it would be recognised here in Ireland
Palestinians have no right to their land and, presumably, should be moved elsewhere.
Where does this differ in any way from Naz Shah's antisemitism - the mass eviction of an entire people, as B is suggesting (or even their being allowed to stay on out of kindness) is ethnic cleansing, pure and simple.
B. confirms that by holding up two religions and suggesting that one is more fit than the other to stay were they are, putting this conflict on a religious war footing based on "my sky fairy is better than your sky fairy".
This is utter, primitive nonsense.
Religion has no place here, and those who suggest it has are no better than Isis.
This is about people of two different cultures being allowed to live peacefully together without hindrance.
Today's reality cannot be infected by what happened when Palestine belonged to a rapacious Empire - God knows (pun intended) today's world has enough post-Empire problems without adding Israel to the list.
The situation is starkly simple - the Palestinians are where they are because of history
They are not going to move willingly, hopefully they will continue to resist any efforts to make them -
Just as hopefully, the present Israeli regime will not seek 'a final solution' - their record with refugees is not one of the best.
There are already 7.2 million Palestinian refugees scattered over this planet today, one in three refugees in the world are Palestinian.
1.4 million, one third of registered Palestinian refugees, live in the 58 UNRWA-recognised refugee camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the Gaza Strip and the West Bank - that does not include those not registered.
Are you people seriously suggesting that that number be added to because they pray to a different bogey-man?
As far as the Brirish Labour Party is concerned, the latest Parliamentary Report has let the cat out of the back by declaring that Labour is guilty of NEW RACISM - criticism of Israel, as far as they are concerned has now become antisemitism.
Isn't it a shame that Apartheid South Africa didn't thik that one up - they'd never have needed to pull out.
I'm sure Israel - the state that enouraged them to become nuclear weaponised - would have backed them up on that one.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:33 PM

Land grabs - typical anti-Semitic trope
invasions - typical anti-Semitic trope
repression - typical anti-Semitic trope
massacres - typical anti-Semitic trope
apartheid wall - typical anti-Semitic trope

But, nah, he's not an anti-Semite he's just fond of disseminating lies to demonize a country and it's people, a country which is a model of democracy, tolerance, equality and individual rights whose neighbours are committed to it's annihilation and the genocide of it's Jewish population. But that doesn't seem to bother Shaw at all in his obsessive hatred.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:05 PM

The moral panic around the Labour Party is stoked only by disaffected ex-Blairites and Brownites and those outside the party with a dishonest agenda involving finding a focus for their faux-antisemitism. I've fought racism all my life and have been even fallen out with people very close to me about it. I am a Labour Party member. I am not going to belong to a setup that espouses any form of racism or other forms of discrimination. My bar is set pretty high apropos of that, though I've been around long enough to know that I can never expect perfection.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:46 PM

Which part of the region has ever made an honest attempt at peace? Well, the word "honest" is key, isn't it? Every set of peace talks between Palestinians and successive Israeli regimes has been a sham. Why?   Because there has never been the slightest motivation for the Israeli regime to offer even the tiniest compromise. Why? Because they have always been able to do exactly, and in full, whatever they wanted to do. Land grabs, invasions, repression, massacres, apartheid wall... The nation that gives them by far the most aid, including three billion per annum for their military (for a country of eight million), puts absolutely no conditions on that aid (AIPAC sees to that). Netanyahu could probably boil Gaza babies and eat them for lunch and his aid still wouldn't be threatened. Why would he dream of entering talks with the slightest prospect of his having to give a single inch when he knows he'll never have to?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:41 PM

There is a further twist to this however - the possibility of a kind of secondary antisemitism, where someone who has no kind of antagonism towards Jews, but who is strongly critical of Israel, could be trapped into accepting the claim that Israel and the Jewish diaspora are essentially one, and on that basis could develop a kind of antagonism towards all Jews.

Insofar as this may happen some of the responsibility for that lies with those who promote this claim on behalf of Israel, and in doing so risk actually promoting secondary anto-semitism - but clearly this kind of secondary anti-semitism is totally unacceptable and irrational. Whenever it might arise it should be countered by those whose criticism of Israel are not corrupted in this way.

I would take it that this is what the current moral panic around the Labour Party is primarily about. However the existence of many articulate and dedicated Jews among those most active in criticising what Israel has become militates very strongly against that kind of development, and there appears to be very little evidence of it actually being present to any real extent. Accusations of anti-semitism have certainly not been restricted to those who may have fallen into that trap.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 07:20 PM

Historical context is a bitch, department . . .

Einstein moved from Germany to Princeton, N.J. in 1933.

In 1939 Princeton students voted him second greatest man.
For greatest man, Princeton students voted for Adolf Hitler.
(For third, Neville Chamberlain)

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 06:57 PM

Jim, go back to the history books. The Zionists bought land from its owners, the Ottomans. The Palestinians were tenant farmers. They never had title to the land. The Palestinians [sic] committed pogroms and murders far back prior to and during the British Mandate. The Mufti of Jerusalem made common cause with the Nazis to kill the Jews. Fortunately, they were unsuccessful.
Which part of the region has the most freedom? Which part of the region kills or imprisons its journalists if they attempt to speak the truth? Which part of the region holds elections on a regular basis? Which part of the region has full citizens of several religions? Which part of the region has ever made an honest attempt at peace?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:55 PM

"How does this not describe the Palestinian's behavior toward their own people-"
Does -t - are the Palestinians actually attempting to ethnically cleanse each other or create an apartheid State?
Sounds like a nasty dose of schizophrenia to me
Are you really suggesting that the Palestinians have a track record of massacring each other
I'm afraid I'll have to sleep on that one!!
"as well as their stated intention toward Israel and its inhabitants?"
Palestine is fighting a defensive battle - is nobody going to refer to the territory that has been taken from them.
I've mentioned this before, but the 'terrorism' attributed to the Palestinians is really no different than that used by Israeli Freedom Fighters against Britain and Palestinians
You really should read Jewish Historian Benny Morris
If one group were terrorists, so were both
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:42 PM

Absolutely agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 05:12 PM

Also true - but the same logic applies to people of any party or none when they are accused of antisemitism. There has to be some indication that their attitude towards Israel is founded on hostility to Jews. With real anti-semites there would be no problem in demonstrating that.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:59 PM

True. Though you didn't exactly specify the Labour Party in your thread title. Hey ho.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 03:51 PM

Talk about their leaders

True in the context of discussions about the situation in that part of the world.

But of course, talking about their leaders in itself has nothing whatsoever to do with identifying whether there is any actual basis for accusations of "anti-semitism" in the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:52 PM

Loose use of terms such as "Israel''s" and "the Palestinian's" [sic] is not helpful. Ordinary Israelis and Palestinians are not the prime movers in this conflict. Talk about their leaders instead.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

Arguments abouts the rights and wrongs of Israel and Palestine are completely irrelevant to a discussion about "antisemitism" in the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 12:38 PM

"Given Israel's track record of of massacres, human rights abuses and attempts to set up an apartheid state - why should anybody be suspicious of criticising such a State?"
How does this not describe the Palestinian's behavior toward their own people--as well as their stated intention toward Israel and its inhabitants?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:44 AM

they used to be

There's your problem, Colonel- you're talking "used to be" and I'm talking now.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:37 AM

"On the subject of Maps Jim, where is the one drawn up by Hamas, "
Wha....??
Aren't the official ones enough for you.
You're as pathetic as your mate
You are the one who disputes casualty figures before you decide if it's a massacre worth condemning.
I should have thought the 1,462 civilians 495, children and 253 women.
in the last round of butchery would have been enough for anybody - not for you massacre appeasers apparently.
ANOTHER ISRAELI VIEW ON THE REGIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:23 AM

No they wouldn't Greg, they used to be given all the help and all the technical aid and support that the U.S.S.R/Russia could deploy and yet they still lost. The "Armies" of the Arab States in the region are not there to defend their countries from foreign invasion they are there to suppress the civilian populations of their own countries. If you doubt that then look at their track record.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:09 AM

the Arabs of the region are piss poor at waging war

Perhaps if the had the billions in financial & military & tactical aid the U.S. regularly doles out to the Israeli government they'd be a bit better at it.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 11:04 AM

Casualty comparisons? WTF have they got to do with it? The fact that the Arabs of the region are piss poor at waging war should direct them towards a peaceful resolution, but they appear to be on an extremely long learning curve.

On the subject of Maps Jim, where is the one drawn up by Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah or the Palestine Authority that shows the borders of this two-state solution they keep lying to the United Nations about. You know it does not exist and I know it does not exist, their avowed aim is to destroy the State of Israel and annihilate its population.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:29 AM

"Sorry Jim do you want that list of Arab attacks on Jewish settlers and the attacks by Arabs against Israel since 1920"
I know who attacked who and I have given you the casualty comparisons.
I have also give you the maps of territory losses
I am not interested in what happened nearly a century ago when this territory was part of the loot takn by the British Empire - it was not theirs to give away.
Your suggestion that the Arabs have no right to the territory is really no different to Shaz's suggestion that Israel; should be moved to America.
The missiles fired into Israel don't even measure up to the dead massacred at sabra Shatile, never mind those who died before or since - they are a pitiful; response to attempted ethnic cleansing by a nuclear facilitated, well armed power - David sling against Goliath armed strength, to use a Biblical comparison
The ratio of Palestinian/Israeli deaths deaths of in the present decade is 8 to 1 - so much for what happened a century ago.
This is a war for territory by Israel - it is not defensive - look at the maps
AN ISRAELI JEW'S ACCOUNT OF THE CONFLICT
"Bregman describes Israel as "a heavy‑handed and brutal occupier". He regards the four decades of occupation chronicled in this book as a black mark on Israeli, and indeed, Jewish history. He finds it depressing that a people that has suffered such unspeakable tragedies of its own can behave so cruelly towards another. The only sign of hope in this otherwise bleak picture is that the occupation may carry within it the seeds of its own demise. By forcing the Palestinians to live in squalor, Bregman concludes, Israel has "hardened those under its power, making them more determined to put an end to the occupation, by violent means if necessary, and live a life of dignity and freedom"."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 10:20 AM

The usual warmed-over BooSpew, false equivalence & irrelevance.

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 09:50 AM

Justin Amler

It seems everyone is an expert on Jews these days...except Jews!

We have a 70 year old organisation called UNESCO telling us about our history, even though we're 4000 years older than them.
We have the White House deciding that our 3000 year old capital isn't actually in Israel.
We have the US State Department informing us, the indigenous people of the area, that living in our own land is unaceptable, though I don't remember it being unacceptable to kick off the Native Americans from their own land.
We have the United Nations telling us what we need to do to achieve peace, even though they've never actually solved any conflicts themselves.
We have the European Union telling us how labelling tomatoes is the road to peace, even as their own members tear each other apart.
We have the Arab world...oy the Arab world... telling us about human rights, while their streets are filled with blood and conflict.

So, at the risk of being controversial, let me, a Jew, tell you about the Jews...

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 09:11 AM

"Every tyrant in history from the Nazis down, have claimed "self-defence" for their atrocities - Israel is only the last in a long line."

Sorry Jim do you want that list of Arab attacks on Jewish settlers and the attacks by Arabs against Israel since 1920 - there were no attacks by the Arabs of the region prior to the creation of the League of Nations Mandate because the Arabs of the region knew full well what their Ottoman rulers response would be - they'd have wiped them out without a second thought.

If 15,000+ missiles were fired into my country it would not take a Sherlock Holmes to deduce that my country was under attack or that any response mounted by the Government of my country would justifiably come under the categorisation of "Self-Defence".

Done any further work on the capability of a bulldozer to dig a mass grave Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: What does 'anti-semitism' mean?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Oct 16 - 08:54 AM

Jim,
Can you actually produce anything from "Informed, intelligent people" actually defending Sabra Shatila, or the massacres of Palestinian civilians

No, because they do not hold Israel responsible for any massacres or war crimes.

Can you actually produce anything from "Informed, intelligent people" and decent liberal democracies actually accusing Israel of massacres or war crimes?

No.