No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:00 PM

Kendall, the fact that you don't play the violin should not stop you (it certainly never stops people with far less talent than you!) - I have a wonderful 'music teaching' book that show kiddies 'in a fun way' how to play and appreciate 'great music'.

One of the early pieces (before learning how to play too many of those annoying black notes on the keyboard) is the famous 'Air in G'.

Want a Good Laugh?

It is set in the Key of F Major ....

:-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:52 PM

Even if I could read music I could never play my favorite music; for example, Beethoven's Violin concerto in D.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: John P
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:12 PM

I've been a professional musician for 40 years, starting with rock and blues and ending up for the last 25 years in traditional folk music. I'm not a theory nerd, but I have a VERY good understanding of the theory used in all the types of music I've played.

I can state positively that folk music has no B#. Most folk music is only loosely notated, if at all, and 90% of it is diatonic and in the keys of D, G, A, F, C, and relative minors. No B#s anywhere. No need to even consider the concept. Neither rock music nor the blues has a B#, either.

I don't do a lot of teaching, but when I do it is because there is someone who wants to learn what I do. This NEVER includes a detailed lesson in esoteric classical music theory. It does include a complete understanding of the applicable theory. This doesn't mean that I'm a bad teacher or a fraud. It just means that a B# is only pertinent to a very small group of musicians. The rest of us (maybe 99% of the musicians in the world??) simply have no use for it and no reason to learn about it.

If the teacher in question was supposed to be teaching detailed classical music theory or high level classical performing, then, yes, he should be teaching the B#. If he's supposed to be teaching guitar, he really should be teaching guitar.

Lastly, josepp, aren't you the one who keeps prattling on about how you don't "believe" in evolution, and think Creationism makes more sense? And you are bitching about someone else's lack of academic rigor?????? Your beliefs are a MUCH bigger threat to our culture than a music teacher who doesn't go into all the details, and is highly insulting besides. If you are going to be a pedant, you might want to consider getting a better general education before you start typing. Someone who spreads the level of misinformed twattle you do should be more cautious about calling a kettle black.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:09 PM

The peanut cart guy says he'll be back around in a jiffy. Just in time to stock up for the next hundred.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:00 PM

"That's where you're wrong. I am everybody. That's exactly who I am. "

You're right Don ... just another Troll, but one who frequents the Music threads for a change ...... :-)

Now, where did the peanut vendor go ....

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:55 PM

"'triple sharps' and 'triple flats'

Mark my words, laddy, go too far down that road and you'll end up silly in the head.. "

Sorry ate the whole bag of peanuts while waiting for the merry go round to slow down again....

A guitarist will often play in 'triple sharp mode' maybe even quadruple or quintuple sharp mode....


... or am I just too sharp for you lot who use capos.... :-P


What do you mean 'end up' - I was BORN this way ... :-p

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:53 PM

No, josepp, you're definitely not me.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:52 PM

hmmmm.....

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: mandomad
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:52 PM

Nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:33 PM

/////YOU may be a better musician for knowing it, josepp, but YOU are not EVERYBODY./////

That's where you're wrong. I am everybody. That's exactly who I am.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:32 PM

////I dont believe you can play music at all////

I don't care what you think.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Noreen
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:29 PM

YOU may be a better musician for knowing it, josepp, but YOU are not EVERYBODY.

There are people who could have learned that solo by ear; just because you couldn't, doesn't mean nobody could. People are different and learn in different ways; some, like you, learn better from the written word or note, others learn best by hearing, and a good teacher knows this.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:27 PM

Some people learn purely by ear, occasionally with stunning results. Between those extremes there's a lot of ground. The proof of the pudding is in the eating - let us hear what results your approach to music produces - it might lend some credibility to your opinion.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:23 PM

#As for folk music coming more from the heart, I think that's more myth than truth.#quote
more cods wallop, all music should come from the heart, music is not a mathematical exercise it is about expressing and interpreting feeling. I dont believe you can play music at all, maybe you can play the troll under the bridge, or the 3 billy goats gruffhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaoxI1DO6Sk

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:10 PM

The argument that one need not have an electrical degree to turn on a light switch is meaningless. Having been an electrician, I can do all my own electrical work. I don't have to call someone to do it for me. Same with my car. No, you don't have to be a mechanic to drive a car but it sure is nice to fix your car's problems yourself for next to nothing instead of paying $200 to some guy to replace a couple of bushings that cost $1.75 at Murray's. It's nice that if I write a song, I can jot it down myself without needing someone to do it for me.

As for folk music coming more from the heart, I think that's more myth than truth. I recently found a sheet music version of "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" that has a very nice guitar solo that I have since lifted for my own version. I've done the song for years per Lead Belly but this solo really fleshes it out tremendously. I couldn't have learned it by ear. No way I would have figured it all out. But having the music in front of me, I got it down. I learned to play blues the same way--looking at sheet music in books.

I don't know why anyone would argue that it's not a required ability. You're always a better musician for knowing it--always.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:06 PM

I was kinda hoping josepp would link to some of his own music. I'd love to hear it.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

100

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Gurney
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:05 PM

GSSchweik, sorry, but you did mention a harp, in your first post. A bs harp, specifically, as I said.
It tickled me, as some typo's do.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:56 PM

HiHo (if I may be so informal as to address you by your first name), if you can find out when the accordion was made, that could provide a clue as to what's going on. An international conference in 1939 established Standard or Concert Pitch as A=440 hertz (cycles per second). Prior to that it had been all over the map, as low as 423 and as high as 455.

I'm just guessing, but that may have something to do with it.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:33 PM

I learnt my theory as a child alongside classical piano lessons, but I've always followed the very basic rule that if a note's got a # on it, you just play the next note up. It seems to work quite satisfactorily. I don't believe any teacher would actually make the claim that B# doesn't exist, but nevertheless anyone already capable of reading a 'B' could work out how to interpret a B#, should they encounter one, without a great deal of thinking, special training or knowledge.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 04:18 PM

I'm sure it's already been said above, but B# certainly exists and is needed - for example as the the "tee" ( as in "lah, tee, do") - in the scale of C# minor.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: HiHo_Silver
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:49 PM

Just to start a little further discussion: As an old folk musician, I once purchased a button accordion which apparently came from Germany and which I though was in F Major. After inspecting it some time after I had it, I discovered the Key was stamped on the bottom end as E#. Accompiment seemed to be fine using F Major on other instruments. Any thoughts?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:33 PM

Exactly so, mandomad.

I'm all for knowing all about everything. But—

One does not have to have a degree in Electrical Engineering in order to flip on a light switch.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: mandomad
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:06 PM

Too effin' technical for me, I've never found a B~Sharp on my mandolins, or the need for one. Just play...



      mandomad

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: C-flat
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 03:01 PM

"Why, that can't be right!!!! There's no such thing as C-flat, only B!

Hmmmm. To B, or not to B.....

C-flat. (am I real?)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Stanron
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:58 PM

I've enjoyed all the waste and utterly meaningless arguement. Keep it coming.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:57 PM

"C Sharp on BBC radio 4"

THAT is a thread title. Notice the thread starter said C Sharp, NOT D Flat.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PoppaGator
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:52 PM

I thought this was a FOLK music forum...

I'm not one of those "opposed" to musical literacy ~ I recognize that additional knowledge is just about always a positive thing ~ but I do contend that most music (including ALL folk music, and virtually all vocal music) comes first from the heart and the imagination, and that transcription of musical creations in written form is secondary ~ it occurs afterwards.

Hell, I feel pretty sure that even orchestral arrangements are "heard" in the composer's mind before (s)he writes the "dots" down on paper.

I feel ambivalent about posting my comment, about participating in this discussion at all, because too much time and thought has already been wasted upon an utterly meaningless argument. Couldn't resist the temptation, sad to say...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 02:05 PM

GUEST unnamed, 5:32 a.m. today said: The issue of equal tempered vs. mean tone and the rest is a quite unrelated, though it does have some bearing on how notes are played.

In musical life, music theory and proper chord spellings are important because they represent something we do. Yet when we "do" B# and C in equal temperament, there is no difference between their sounds. It's not until we "do" these notes in meantone and justly intoned scales that they sound different from each other. So I would say that the issue of which type of scale cuts directly to the heart of the question.

The a cappella ensembles in which I sing strive to interpret dots using intervals based on the physics of sound (mostly 3-limit just intonation, yet I doubt our singers know it's called that), which approach allows overtones to ring out freely. For us, the difference between B# and C surely does matter.

Just intonation sounds bright and alive next to the comparatively duller, non-ringing sound that results when our singers sometimes revert to the compromise versions of intervals known as equal temperament, which predominates in life.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Crowhugger
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:54 PM

GSS at 8:03 a.m. today: ROTFL...And for quite a few minutes! Thank you.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: treewind
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 01:31 PM

If you'd only gone up another semitone you'd have been in B minor (2 sharps) and the piano would have been in A minor (no key sig at all)...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:11 AM

In actual fact, about 5 months after I was told that I was a saxophonist (at age 13), my band director expressed an interest in a particular piece of music and asked if I might be able to play it.

(It was a Beethoven piece.)

The only dots I could find for the piece was an arrangement for piano in A♭ minor. (signature on the score C♭ major)

When I played it for him, straight from the dots, he affirmed that it sounded fine but complained that it would be a lot of work for him to rewrite the piano part for an accompaniment for my B♭ saxophone.

So I kicked it up two semitones and played it for him in what was B♭ minor (C♯ major) for my instrument, so he'd be able to play from the original score in A♭ minor (C♭ major).

Then he looked at the sheet music and discovered he'd be playing 7 flats (while I played 7 sharps) and decided he wasn't really as interested as he thought he'd been.

I never did bother to look up whether that sheet music really was the key that Beethoven used when he wrote the piece.

John

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 09:03 AM

No, I generally sing over any stuff I can't do or don't feel necessary

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:51 AM

As a self taught guitarist with very bad Osteo Arthritic fingeers who can't physically managed certain chords, I'm amazed how many songs on chord web sites have what I consider far too many chords, yes ok if you're a serious musician or learning formally, or have healthy fingers, then of course you want to play ALL the chords. Yet most of my repertoire, much of which originally had quite complicated chords, I've found or devised much simpler chords for, and from listening to others basically sound just as good, I'm sure all the serious misicians might be horrified, but is it really neccessary to play ALL the chords given?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 08:03 AM

LOIUS ARMSTRONGS HOARSE.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: kendall
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

Anyone remember an awful Sci Fi movie called The Gamma People?   Gamma radiation screwed up a group of people and made them like Zombies.
One of them turned out to be a genius named Hugo. He was instructing a little girl as she played piano. He was brow beating her with statements such as, "Music should be a precise configuration, not a sentimental noise."

When it comes to music theory, I feel like a clam digger at a MENSA convention.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:44 AM

Well, you had all better B#, that's what I say...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:42 AM

On a piano, yes.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: s&r
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:40 AM

Is Hsharp the same as C in Germany?

Stu

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:37 AM

GOOD SOLDIER SCHWEIK never mentioned a harp, sorry to harp on about it, but that is one fact that is true on this thread.
I would likie to nominate kansas johns post too, excellent.I have just spent the last hour and a half painting my House ., WHEN I SHOULD HAVE BEEN PLAYING MUSIC.
SORRY,but i am out of here this is a complete waste of time

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:32 AM

Is that a game of Lotto {or Housey-Housey}?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:30 AM

Let's simplify this.
The key of C major comprises the following notes:
C
C##
C####
C#####
C#######
C#########
C###########
C############ (or just C)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 07:09 AM

SPB - I am very glad to hear it!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:33 AM

I've just spent the last half hout playing ascending and descending minor scales when I should be working!!!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:16 AM

Some realities are crimes. Others are recriminations.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:14 AM

Josepp said: The best guitarist I ever played with can't read. What has that got to do with anything??? I'm talking about someone who is being paid to teach music and is apparently teaching it wrong.

What it "has to do with anything" is that EARLIER you said:

Josepp said: When I watch musicians that I respect play, they can all play straight off sheet music. That is how it should be. Anything less damages our culture.

You made no mention of teaching music there...you quite clearly stated, in black and white, that every musician (NOT teacher) that you respect can read music and that musicians who can't damage our culture. So presumably the "best guitarist you ever played with" is someone you don't actually respect and who you believe is damaging our culture! It's there. You said it. I can't see any other way to read it?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:08 AM

You can play, and you can teach how to play, without ever referring to music notation or theory.

Misinforming people about aspects of theory, or making money out of presenting yourself as an authourity on theory when you actually don't understand it at all, is fraudulent.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 06:02 AM

a person's imperfection is what makes music pleasing

So that's why I'm so popular! :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:58 AM

nine nine nine

a cockroach who befriended a cat called mehitabel and typed her entirely lower-case letters coz he couldn't reach the shift key

dont you know from nothing

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Mar 11 - 05:52 AM

What's an archy?