BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: harpgirl
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 12:51 PM

...monkey see, monkey do!

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 12:41 PM

LH I was grooving right along to that ramble. It was a good one. I think I will spend a lot of time on that, in fact.

Related to all of the above, I recently have come to believe that we are decensded from the primates who consciously decided to violate the social contract of ritual violence (i.e ritual aggression to accomplish the purpose without carnage), and who made a deliberate and calculated decision, with foresight and malice aforethought, to throw rocks right between the eyes.

Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 12:23 PM

Awright!!! Ha! Ha! Ha! That sounds like an event which I absolutely MUST attend. My rates are quite reasonable too. I will speak for a good meal and a glass of wine, or a weekend with Winona R., or a 1/32 scale Revell model of the Kawanishi Shiden (that kit is very hard to find these days).

- LH

p.s. what does "docent" mean?

p.p.s. Wolfgang, I see big trouble brewing in the monkey house. I fear that any day they will elect a really stupid monkey with big ears who will launch a pre-emptive attack on the chinchilla cages, claiming that they are hiding weapons of mass destruction.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:57 AM

Gee, LH, you do rattle on some, doncha?? But I am glad someone is willing to take on the burdensome role of Mudcat Spiritual Docent and Cosmic Interpreter.

I do hope you'll come to the next meeting of the Mudcat Green Tea and Literary Insights Circle and share your view of "Meaning in the Teacup, Full or Empty" (our current thematic topic). I am sure we can arrange an honorarium.

Sincerely yours,


A

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:44 AM

Good story, Wolfgang!

I suspect the Bible parable had to do with non-material considerations, in which case it might might much better sense. Depends on what it's about.

Yeah. Okay, I took a look at it. Here's what I get out of it.

The various workers toil in the vineyard (of life). The vineyard is embodied life as we know it, and we all toil in it, but some harder than others, and some longer than others. People (whose love is conditional) expect favoritism and practice it...so those who toil harder or longer expect a greater allotment of Divine love for having done so...a bigger reward. And they will get a bigger reward from other people, for sure, because people's love is conditional. The ones who worked harder and longer also expect to get to lord it over those who didn't, and form heavenly hierarchies accordingly...of the more righteous and the less righteous, and so on. You see people doing this everywhere in Earthly life, specially in religious orders.

In this respect they are quite unlike the Divine, which does not love conditionally but simply loves, period, and in an equal fashion. Divine love is not divisible...because it's complete love.

One simple parable or demonstration of that is that when the sun shines it shines equally on everyone without prejudice. It doesn't reserve itself for the rich man, the saint, the local preacher, etc. Likewise, when the rain falls it falls equally on everyone.

In such a situation, the "important" man feels vexed, because he figures that he, of all people, ought to get a special dispensation from the "powers that be"...but he doesn't! He gets exactly the same dispensation everyone else does. He gets Divine Love, in full measure, which is his penny for the day's work. Same as everyone else. He gets equality. In such a system the last appear (by contrast to the usual human state of affairs) to come first, and the first last.

That's Love.

It is also, curiously enough, the basic notion underlying pure socialism...but it's efficacy is greater limited by the spiritual maturity of a populace and their leaders, which usually isn't that high. Capitalism is the antithesis of that, being based on self-interest, inequality, and competition (a form of war). Both socialism and capitalism have a useful part to play in human development, but socialism is essentially more egalitarian in its nature. That has not prevented it from being hijacked by some of the most vicious dictators and police states in history, however. People are clever creatures. They can ruin anything, given half a chance.

What humans call "love" is mostly just a form of conditional negotiation. ("I'll give you what you want if I get what I want.")

Since God doesn't want (meaning "lack") anything...there are no conditions to be negotiated. The Divine loves everyone in a complete fashion. Whether they recognize it, are open to it, or accept that love is an entirely different matter! Many (all, in fact) are called. Few step forward and answer (because they don't hear the call in the first place...they're too busy with other matters that concern them). Those who do not step forward and answer cannot be chosen, because it is on them that the choice depends.

All of this, of course, may strike you as utter tripe and fantasy. If so, feel free to go on enjoying your usual concepts of reality. That's what we all do.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 11:04 AM

All of the monkeys in this were female. A more informative summary is here.

The burning question left is what did the unfairly rewarded female monkey do who got the grape without doing any work for it? Did she offer to share? No, she sat back and ate the grape with signs of pleasure. You might even have seen a grin but that's speculative.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:51 AM

Kat:

Be careful comparing women with monkeys! You could be accused of some kind of chauvinism! :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:21 AM

"...and the bears all demand at least one waltz a day."

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:20 AM

Great story, now if it had only worked better for women in the equal pay dept.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 09:56 AM

just goes to show you that the monkeys *know* they are being 'paid' to perform.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 09:39 AM

I thought you'd like it. The old-fashioned behaviourist approach has lots of difficulties explaining that behaviour.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 09:24 AM

Wonderful, too, that they are so discriminating about the kind of pay! I love it!

Thanks, Wolfgang!


A

Subject: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:14 AM

Monkeys reject unequal pay
SARAH F. BROSNAN & FRANS B. M. DE WAAL
Nature 425, 297–299 (2003)

"A cucumber should be well sliced, and dressed with pepper and vinegar, and then thrown out, as good for nothing". Dr Samuel Johnson's views (quoted in Boswell's Tour to the Hebrides) are close to those of brown capuchin monkeys. A monkey willing to perform a task for a cucumber may refuse to do so if its partner is given a tasty grape. "It's not fair", the complaint of children the world over, is the message. In balking at this unequal pay, the monkey is surely being irrational, rejecting food that is on offer. But the negative emotion of "unfairness" and the refusal to accept inequitable situations has been a positive influence in the long-term in the development of human society, and the same evolutionary pressures seem to have prevailed in other primates as well.

I loved reading this article. In humans that is well known from laboratory studies: Participants often rather would take less money if they know another participant gets the same amount than get more but see the other participant walk away with much more money for the same work or the same money for less work.

This reminds me of what I consider one of the more stupid stories in the Bible, the workers in the vineyard (my translation may be far off, but it is in Mt 20). They complain that they get the same pay for a full day's work as those who only did work for an hour. The employer then says they should not complain for they did get what he had promised. The crooked logic in that story never takes into account how real humans (and monkeys) are.

Wolfgang