BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 05:28 PM

Specially when feeding chimpanzees!

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 04:34 PM

Here's a little tip - don't mix radishes, melon and garlic and herb dip in the same meal either.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Sep 03 - 02:52 PM

I just bumped this because I like the title.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 03:58 PM

Better play safe and avoid pretzels as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 03:53 PM

It doesn't bear thinking about...

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Sep 03 - 11:56 AM

Yes, I heard that bananas have that effect on a chimp. God forbid we feed any to Spaw.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 10:53 PM

Ha! Ha! Great cartoon. Oh, those terrible looters!

Bonzo is actually quite fascinated by G.W. Bush. He thinks that the prez may be the long-sought missing link (between barely sentient homo sapien life and highly intelligent chimpanzees). Chimps have been trying for decades to determine what primitive creatures their ancestors evolved from, and this could be a key piece in the puzzle.

What baffles him is how such a creature can become leader of a great power, but he understands that our methods of picking a leader are a bit archaic and illogical.

By the way, he also says that his grandfather (Bonzo the first) acted alongside the former president Reagan, and blew him clean off the stage (metaphorically speaking).

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 08:08 PM

Try to discourage Bonzo from watching George Bush on telly. I mean, we've all got relatives we're embarrassed by, but this is a bit much for a poor ape...

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 08:03 PM

Well, it sounds like the cognitive equivalent of guard duty to me, pal!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 04:01 PM

Bonzo the Third is not an "equal" monkey, Amos. First of all, he's an ape. Secondly, he's 3 sizes larger than average (so he tells me), and has become quite notorious for scaring off female Jehovah's Witnesses who have been trying to interest the apes and monkeys in current issues of "The Watchtower". I think 6 bananas is more than enough to pay him for a crank phone call to Clinton. He should be getting the first 3 in a day or two, and I await the results with great anticipation.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Sep 03 - 05:50 AM

Who, me, LH?

Look, I evem elicited a straight answer!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 08:31 PM

Got that right, Wolfgang. It's similar with rabbits...no problem managing a harmonious group of females, but try keeping males in groups and you will have a lot of fighting. This is one reason that I somewhat prefer the idea of matriarchal systems to that of patriarchal ones. Ultimately though, I think an equal share of authority and responsibility is the best notion.

As for altruism...I think there are 2 varieties of it:

1. Altruism done primarily in order to appear as a "good person" in one's own eyes and the eyes of others...which can be a bit hypocritical (in some cases very hypocritical)...but which may still yield beneficial side effects to others as well...or not, as the case may be.

2. Genuine altruism which springs out of genuine love...most often seen in the powerful motivation of mothers who protect and care for their children in a very self-sacrificing way....more rarely seen in the case of genuine saints, who labour not for recognition but out of a deeper love for humanity. I've seen a few people like that in this life. Soldiers who fight out of heartfelt patriotism are also demonstrating such altruism, since it would usually be in their own best interests to avoid combat entirely by any means possible! But...they love their country, their culture, their religion, whatever, and are willing to risk all for it. That's altruism. When it goes too far (or when it's happening on the "other side") we call it fanaticism.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 05:53 PM

How do you distinguish between "guard duty", and young blokes just hanging round on the outside of the group, trying to look as if that was where they preferred to be? Whether you're talking about humans or monkeys it can look very similar, and one can turn into the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 05:36 PM

Yes I also suspect that the monkey had no firm grasp of justice nor any desire to be a little proto-warrior for justice, or a union activist in the making. Still, the self-awareness is intriguing, especially in its apparently negative impact on the ability to institute role diversification. This monkey's thought process extends in some fashion to an awareness of community and its benefits or drawbacks. We generally accept (don't we still?) that many social endeavours, e.g. those epitomized by ant communities, function with no understanding by the members. Here, however, we need to consider the functioning of, say, a small community of monkeys, and the need for one or more to stand guard, facing risks and losing out on feeding time or something else. Most people still believe (I think) that altruism is in appearances only, not a conscience decision?

In other words, with this monkey so self-conscious about keeping up with the Jones's, who or what convinces her to serve the greater goodwhen she's not being fed by keepers? The articles above says that resusal to accept injustice "has been a positive influence in the long-term in the development of human society," but these monkeys showed (possibly irrational) self-interest in conjunction with an awareness of community, not a disdain for inequity.

(Do only male monkeys take guard duty?)

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 04:43 PM

Why only female monkeys?
I know your responses were not meant serious but just in case someone is interested: The serious reason for this lies most likely outside of the actual experiment. Females only groups are much easier to keep than mixed or males only groups.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 04:35 PM

Maybe the males might have been more likely to bite the hand that fed them in such an inconsistent way.

Interpreting all this in terms of "justice" seems a bit stretched to me. Essentially, it's a kind of journalistic PR.

I mean, if you did this kind of experiment with human beings, the kind of reasons for the results shown could include all kinds of other motives as well as a hunger for justice. And as this thread has demonstrated, even when it comes to "justice" there are all kinds of different way of determinig what is just.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 03:15 PM

Trying to start trouble are you, Hrothgar? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Hrothgar
Date: 21 Sep 03 - 05:08 AM

Back to the original proposition:

All of the monkeys in this were female - why was the experiment done with female monkeys only?

Possibly they couldn't get the male monkeys to work at all, because they were smart enough to figure out that the keepers would have to feed them anyway?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 12:57 PM

Equal pay for Equal Monkeys!! Little Hawk Unfair!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,Bonzo the Third
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 12:24 PM

It's a deal! Send the first 3 bananas by UPS at once. I'm warming up by practicing my raspberries on fat tourists with cameras and whiny little kids. First I give 'em the raspberry, then I moon 'em! If that doesn't work, I do something really gross. Ha! Ha!

Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! I am salivating already!

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 12:14 PM

6 bananas. 3 in advance, 3 after the job is done.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,Bonzo the Third
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 12:05 PM

I wouldn't think of doing it for less than 10 bananas, payable in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 11:53 AM

Then too, piecework is normally based on a set fee for doing a specific job. You don't get paid more if it takes you five times longer to do it. This is an important thing to remember when hiring certain types of somewhat unscrupulous fellows to paint your house or cut down your dead trees and haul them away. NEVER pay them by the hour!!! They may be there for weeks if you do... Agree on a set price at the beginning and pay them only when the job is completely and properly done...eh, Raptor? :-)

Bonzo - Well, I am a little disappointed at your lack of pluck and enterprise. It's true that Clinton is a dangerous lunatic, but he doesn't normally go to gigs heavily armed. I expected better of you. Furthermore, a crate of bananas for a mere long distance phone call is exorbitant! I will instead offer you one (1) banana to make the call, payable after it's been made.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 11:39 AM

McGrath - that was communism... from each according to their means, to each according to their needs.

The vinyard parable is this: Those workers employed at the beginning of the day agreed to a price and were happy. They stopped being happy when others came in near the end of the day and got the same price for fewer hours work. The moral (apart from always read the small print) is, your reward will always be equal to your labours, but some may not have to work hard to get it.

I still say that cucumbers are only good for one thing - and that sure as heck ain't eating!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,Bonzo the Third
Date: 20 Sep 03 - 11:30 AM

Little Hawk, I must decline your offer of bananas for harassing Clinton Hammond at his next gig. I've heard about Clinton Hammond. He's dangerous. Get someone else to do your dirty work. I'm a chimp, not a chump.

However, for a crate of Grade A bananas I will call him up and blow raspberries at him over the phone, long distance...

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 06:58 PM

Grapes are better than cucumbers -- any six-year old knows that!! Why? Fructose, man!!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 06:46 PM

Well, yeah, but it's not really about money nor is it about normal everyday work situations between a boss and his hired help. I would have been quite annoyed by such a story when I was young too, by the way, for much the same reasons as you are, Wolfgang.

One has to assume that in the society of Jesus' time people were general fairly familiar with the kind of parables that he used to describe spiritual problems and solutions. If not, he would not have spoken to them in that fashion, but in some fashion more suitable to their understanding. It was a society where virtually everyone was quite religious, and would probably understand that such a story was symbolic, not literal.

Now suppose that you took a modern speaker who talks to people about positive thinking, using all of our present vernacular and expressions...and then translated it (as best you could) into ancient Hebrew and went back in a time machine to the year 3 BC and read it to the locals in Palestine. I suspect they would find a lot of it confusing or incomprehensible. You would probably end up getting stoned to death or something. :-)

This is one reason why I do not place my sole dependence for spiritual inspiration on ancient texts and teachers, but instead read all the modern stuff I can on the subject, and try to find living teachers as well. There are some out there.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 05:15 PM

I still don't like this particular bible story.
You just have to imagine the landowner using this method of payment the next day and always after that. The needs are of course still the same. But if the workers can get that pay with a tiny fraction of toil you can imagine what happens.

And it is not a very good story about solidarity in my eyes:
Am I not free to do as I wish with my own money?

For that line alone I didn't like it when I was young and I still don't.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 04:47 PM

Bruce,

to repeat it with dogs is a good idea. My gut feeling is they wouldn't care about 'unequal pay'. But, as they write (too often) at the end of articles: 'Further research is requested.'

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 04:06 PM

I've known two really wonderful Jack Russel terriers, one of which belongs to my dad. She is known as "Jackie O.":-)

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 03:50 PM

Hi, Mary...well, I have to agree that some Jack Russels are real mental cases, but I happened to know one that was a very neat little dog, so I guess that has prejudiced me in their favour. :-)

The prodigal son? I'll have a look at it (again) and see...

I like that story about the orangutan letting the springs return slowly. He was obviously a thinking ape, not just a strong one.

Still haven't heard back from Bonzo the Third, and the zoo staff will not put me through to him. In fact, they laughed at me. Some people!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 02:10 PM

The question about this monkey for fairness, as others have alluded to above, is whether he may have just been pouty (and therefore self-defeating), rather than taking a stand for justice.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 01:01 AM

Roger:

So he demonstrated that some gorilla was a s strong as .8 orangoutangs?

What about men? What sort did he test? (Given the variety it is an untestable statement as written anyway!)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Padre
Date: 19 Sep 03 - 12:54 AM

But is a grape 'better' pay than a cucumber - that seems to me the definition of 'unequal' What this report seems to be saying is that some monkeys would rather have what the other table is having, not that one reward is 'more equal' than another. "The grass is always greener...."

If the measure is weight, the cucumber should clearly be the winner.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:57 PM

LH, you did well with the laborers in the vineyard parable. How 'bout the prodigal son.......I see similarities.....especially the father, and the pouting older son/brother.

And about Jack Russells.....it's been my experience that they are about the most neurotic dog around. I've known three, and they were so attached to their female owners that they went bananas when a male was near. ...Next to Dalmations, about the nastiest dogs to approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: rangeroger
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 10:57 PM

When I was a student at San Diego State I took an experimental psychology course in primate behavior. The proffessor was Dr. Chris Parker. WE spent a lot of our time at the San Diego Zoo observing the primates there.

Chris had done a lot of work with the gorillas and the orangutans there and related a story to us about one of his experiments.

He was in the crowd one day observing Albert,the patriarch Silverback who used to be at the zoo. Someone in the crowd made the comment that a gorilla was as strong as ten men. Chris began to wonder "How do you prove that statement"? Do you put a gorilla at one end of a rope and ten men at the other?

What he came up with was a tube filed with garage door springs witha handle at one end and a tension gauge at the other.This extended through a concrete wall into the gorilla enclosure.Albert would get a reward of a banana slice upon reaching a predetermined tension. The interesting part came when Albert started placing his banana slices on the window where Chris was observing. When Albert failed to pull the handle sufficiently to get a reward he would reach up and take one of his stockpiled slices and reward himself anyway.

As to the strength of the pull? Well over 800 lbs and when Albert reached the point of reward he would simply let go of the handle allowing every thing to crash back into place. Chris said the entire building shook when he did that.

Another interesting note was that Chris also tried the experiment wth Bob, the old orangutan. Bob not only pulled more than Albert(over 1000lbs) he did it one handed and with complete control would slowly let the springs return with nary a sound.

rr

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 09:15 PM

Yeah! Right on, McGrath! That's the way I see it too.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 08:06 PM

The vineyard story sounds fine and fair to me. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

Just because you are hanging round all day hoping to be hired instead of picking grapes doesn't mean the needs of you and your family are any less. Solidarity!

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Joybell
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 06:00 PM

Monkeys monkeys an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of computers and an infinite amount of time. I knew I was in the right place. I've been wondering where you were.

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 05:50 PM

Bonzo the Third - your offer interests me. How many bananas would you charge to travel to Windsor, Ontario and pitch overripe durians at Clinton Hammond when he is performing his next gig?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 05:48 PM

Wow!!

LH:

Competency in violence is not the question. The proposition is that an entity resorts to viokence only after having screwed up other possible means of managing things. But I think actually that is just disingenuous, since almost all animals live on some sort of violence. Carnivores against each other, and herbivores against weeds and plants.

In fact just because humans organize their food chain doesn't make it look any less violent from the cow viewpoint, does it? Getting your throat cut or your brains smashed in is no less violent because it is done by an organization with secretaries and all...

Maybe you could argue that if we were truly competent we would live on light and water, but I feel that's going a little far...

:>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 04:54 PM

There has been some other interesting animal research going on lately. Take a look at the news regarding a fossil of a guinnea pig the size of a bison.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 04:42 PM

That's a fascinating story, Kat. There are some individual animals who are extraordinary individuals, showing a highly developed soul.

Merely being in the presence of a highly developed soul greatly assists other souls, and that is true for animals as well as for human beings. It's the basis behind the formation of spiritual communities. Sounds like the Harras Wildlife Sanctuary is a spiritual community to me.

I like Jack Russells a lot. They're lively, bright little dogs.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 04:30 PM

LH, I did saay Western society as we know it, basically. I agree with you, otherwise and would actually prefer a more egalitarian society of bartering, sharing and, self-sustainability.

Also, It's my belief that human beings are (generally) evolved to a higher level of intelligence (and thus responsibility) than animals,...I just watched a program about a little MALE Jack Russell terrier named Tokkolos in Namibia at the Harras Wildlife Sanctuary. That little 2yr old dog has a lot to teach us. He was originally supposed to be a companion animal for the director. However when she took him out to exercise, along with a few cheethas which she'd raised from orphanhood, the little dog found himself being followed about by four smaller baby cheetahs. Around there is is/was common for farmers to kill the mother cheetahs if they threaten their cattle herds.

Harras was founded to care for the orphans of such as well as other wildlife. Anyway, little Tokkolos adopted those kittens and mothered them. He not only mothers all of them, he also mothers any other type of animal orphan which comes to the Sanctuary, no matter the species, gender, etc. In the case of four newborn kittens (cheetah, I think) he literally saved them by giving them the good washing up a mother would do which stimulates them to eat, urinate and defecate. It was really incredible to watch him mother, play and discipline those fine cats, esp. as they became bigger, near the size of larger dogs, and on. They clearly respected and obeyed him.

After watching it, I couldn't help but think how much I wished human beings would get along so well without thought of colour, ability, gender, etc.

The other extraordinary thing was the young woman who is the director, having grown up there as the daughter of the original founders, walked among the big cats freely and without any malice from them. There was NO violence, no fear of the animals nor did the animals seem fearful in anyway. Sure, there were territorial spats, but nothing which drew blood.:-) And, Tokkolos reigned over all. An almost Eden on earth it would seem, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 03:56 PM

Life is like a tree full of monkeys. The ones on the top look down and see nothing but smiling faces. The ones on the bottom look up and see nothing but arseholes.

And I don't like cucumber so it's the grape for me every time!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: GUEST,Bonzo the Third
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 02:35 PM

I would be willing to engage in violent or destructive acts for grapes, as long as those acts do not require substantial risk to my own well-being. Phone the ape and monkey house at the Philadelphia Zoo and ask for Bonzo the Third.

I will also work for bananas, mangos, and papayas.

I want to thank Wolfgang for starting this excellent thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 02:34 PM

The results of the study aren't really surprising when one considers that inequity aversion in humans is most pronounced during relatively early childhood. How often do parents of two-year-olds hear something like, "Not fair! Suzie got more than me!" ? The fact that it is something human children learn so early and easily would seem to indicate that it is a trait passed down from our "pre-human" ancestors, not a "learned behavior".

I would be very interested to see the same type of study performed with dogs to see if inequity aversion is strictly a primate characteristic or if it is even more deeply ingrained in the mammalian psyche.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 02:27 PM

Well, Kat, it depends on the society. In some societies the pay may be the primary or at least a key objective, in others accomplishing the work may be the main objective, and the pay is simply not a factor. This would certainly be true in a moneyless society, and there have been some of those.

But what about the violence question posed by Amos? "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"? Well, yes, that is generally true in the case of human beings...although...in a case of warfare (launched, one assumes, by the morally incompetent) one may require competent warriors to defend oneself! So there you have a situation arising out of human incompetence which requires further such incompetence, done of course in as competent a manner as possible. :-) Stonewall Jackson was a marvelously competent expert in the organized incompetence that is called "war".

Now for a tiger, violence is a prerequisite to survival, but does that include violence on other tigers? Possibly, when one takes into account territorial requirements and food supply...this leads me to think that a totally nonviolent tiger would be, in fact, incompetent.

It's my belief that human beings are (generally) evolved to a higher level of intelligence (and thus responsibility) than animals, so we ought to be able to find ways of avoiding violence...and we certainly could, if we were all willing to. It's partly just laziness that stands in the way. For instance, we routinely practice violence (by proxy) on untold numbers of domesticated animals merely for the convenience of eating food we have grown accustomed to. There are alternatives, but laziness and habit and profit stand in the way of doing anything substantial to change the situation.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 01:33 PM

Well the one with the grapes was probably just doing it to catch the eye of some male! Silly grrrls...competing over some fellah!

Seriously, in human life one wouldn't expect another woman to give up her higher salary for her lower-paid sisters, not in this day and age, in a Western society as we know it. She probably had a real struggle to get there, paid her dues, so to speak. Rather than giving that up or resting on her laurels, though, she may do as many really have and work for equal pay for women, overall. The more women who can command higher pay, the more chances others will be able to follow.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Monkeys refuse unequal pay
From: Amos
Date: 18 Sep 03 - 12:54 PM

VIOLENCE

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

                Salvor Hardin

Postulate: This sentiment applies to all species, not just homo sapiens. Discuss.