BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:44 AM

Sorry Tug of Cox, "Impatience" is my middle name (well, not really, but maybe it should have been.

Here are the hyperlinks to the online resources that you shared in your post:

Link to the Joseph Antonio Emidy home page:
http://www.emidy.com/

British Association for Local History: Event in 2007 honored Emidy and commemorated the bicentennial of the end of British involvement in the Atlantic slave trade.

http://www.balh.co.uk/lhn/article.php?file=lhn-vol1iss83-6.xml

Details of Emidy's life are found in the autobiography of politician James Silk Buckingham (London, 1855). Buckingham played flute and studied music with Emidy. Find this at JSTOR: *

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4666(198611)127%3A1726%3C619%3AJEAAIC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G

Here are some maps of Cornwall, England:

http://www.cornwall-calling.co.uk/mapof.htm

-snip-


* Unfortunately, I'm not able to access full JSTOR articles.   However, Google took me to this website which may or may not be similar:

http://www.jazzbows.com/blackviolinlinks.html

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:33 AM

Thanks to all who have posted to this thread thus far.

And BTW, Tug the Cox, I agree with everything that you wrote. :o)

(I'm just kidding. You probably hit the submit button too soon. In any event, I look forward to reading what you'll post.
**

Most of the other references that I have found to Black Britons in Mudcat threads have been in threads about the blackening up custom used by some Morris Dance groups. Here is a link to one of those posts that I wrote:

thread.cfm?threadid=87981#1943526 Folklore: Padstow 'Darkie Days'

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:29 AM

This was supposed to fill the 'empty'post.


Joseph Antonio Emidy (1775(?) -1835)

Joseph Antonio Emidy was born in Guinea, West Africa. As a child he was sold into slavery and shipped to Brazil. Emidy was later taken to Portugal, where he received violin lessons. After three or four years of study there, Emidy gained a position as a second violinist at the Lisbon Opera (1794). Unfortunately, his skill as a violinist also led to the loss of his freedom: after a performance one evening, Emidy was kidnapped onto a British navy warship to serve as "ship's fiddler." He was released in Falmouth, Cornwall about four years later. Emidy remained in England, where he married and raised a family in the city of Truro, Cornwall. He is buried at Kelwyn Church, Cornwall.

Emidy was well known in Cornwall as a violinist, conductor, teacher, and organizer of orchestral societies. He is said tto have composed chamber works, concertos and symphonies, but none of his music survives.

Link to the Joseph Antonio Emidy home page:

http://www.emidy.com/

British Association for Local History: Event in 2007 honored Emidy and commemorated the bicentennial of the end of British involvement in the Atlantic slave trade.

http://www.balh.co.uk/lhn/article.php?file=lhn-vol1iss83-6.xml

Details of Emidy's life are found in the autobiography of politician James Silk Buckingham (London, 1855). Buckingham played flute and studied music with Emidy. Find this at JSTOR:

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0027-4666(198611)127%3A1726%3C619%3AJEAAIC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-G

Here are some maps of Cornwall, England:

http://www.cornwall-calling.co.uk/mapof.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:25 AM

Here's a post from this Mudcat thread thread.cfm?threadid=93977#1814649 which provides an additional perspective about contemporary Black Britons:


Subject: RE: Black people at folk clubs
From: Grab - PM
Date: 20 Aug 06 - 06:41 PM


...In the UK, blacks and Asians *chose* to come over. And as immigrants do, they tended to congregate in cities, which was (and is) where the work is. There's precious few jobs available in rural areas for the people born there, never mind jobs going spare for immigrants, so there was never any reason for immigrants to move into those areas. They'd also tend to clump together like most immigrants, partly for community and partly because their lower incomes/savings/education forced them to live in the less pleasant areas of town. This is pretty much the story of any group of immigrants starting up in a new country, I guess - check the various Chinatowns, Greektowns or whatever.

Integration has meant this isn't as much the case as it was, and moving to where the jobs are means that well-educated black Britons are likely to live anywhere. But there are still inner-city areas of Britain which are 80-90% non-white (areas of London, Manchester, Leeds and Bradford) and areas which are almost exclusively white (mainly rural areas: Lincolnshire is less than 2% non-white, and Fylde, where I come from, isn't much higher)...

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Tug the Cox
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:23 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:15 AM

Perhaps I should back up for a minute and clarify that in the context of this thread, by "Black Briton" I mean those people who have some Black African descent who either live in Britain or who used to live in Britain. [Yes, I know that you're not suppose to use a word in a definition for that word, but I don't think the term "sub-Saharan African nations" is applicable because their are people of Black African descent who live above the Sahara desert or within the Sahara desert].

In other words, I'm talking about those people who are descended from Black people who have lived in Great Britain for generations. And I am also talking about Black people who live in or used to live in Great Britain who are of Afro-Caribbean descent, Afro-South American descent, African American descent, Afro-Canadian descent, and [at least most of] the people who are from or are descended from Africa, including people of African descent of mixed race or of two biological Black parents who live in Great Britain and who may have other European countries (and may have done so for generations).

I'm aware that my definition for "Black Briton" may not include all of those people who are considered "Black" Great Britain, at least I got the impression that the referent "Black" (or "black") is used differently in Great Britain from this Mudcat thread.

Here is a post that I wrote trying to get clarification about that subject:

thread.cfm?threadid=101762#2058035

Subject: RE: BS: Does Being Dark Matter?
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 21 May 07 - 07:46 PM

And with regards to alanabit's story of "Betty" who had Sri Lankan origins saying ""Well done Alan. You really stuck up for us blacks.":

I found that story interesting on many levels. But, I'd like to focus on this one aspect of that story-

I don't think in the USA that people from Sri Lanka, India, Pakistan, and other places in the Far East use "blacks" as a group referent for themselves.

Apparently the referent "Black" in England and other parts of the UK includes person from Sri Lanka as well as Black Britons who were there prior to Black people from the Caribbean coming, Black people from the Caribbean, Africans, African Americans, Black Canadians, Black people from Latin/South American, Middle Easterners etc etc etc.

Am I right about that?

And is this the same way "Black" is used in Canada and in Australia?

When you think about it, it makes sense since some Sri Lankans, East Indians, Pakistanis, etc etc etc are much darker in skin color than African Americans. But I don't think that "black" is used that way in the USA.

Maybe I'm wrong.

??


-snip-

See that thread for the responses that some 'Catters gave to that question.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 10:12 AM

There is a very useful book which I can't recommend too highly - edited by Paul Oliver Black Music in Britain, Open University Press, 1990 (and now sadly out of print).

There were black musicians in Britain in the late 18th/early 19th century, such as Billy Waters who was caricatured by Cruikshank and Pierce Egan in Life in London. The later minstrelsy craze included a few black performers. Black sailors contributed to the development of the shanty singing tradition. There were early black performers in jazz after World War One such as Gordon Stretton, and also a number of African singers who recorded in London before World War Two.

The impact of the Windrush and subsequent migrations on Britain and British music has been well documented, but there are a lot of other strands that still need to be researched. A recent exhibition in Liverpool noted the invisibility of the city's black community in the Beat era but their contribution was real and significant, even if it wasn't much noted. See this site for more information about Black Music on Merseyside.

Matthew Edwards

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:49 AM

Here is another post from that provides an excerpt from the same BBC article whose link appears to no longer work:

Subject: RE: Say what?-song lyrics defined
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 10 May 06 - 06:40 PM

There were a fair number of black people around in England in the 18th century - slaves or servants or sailors. And then after the American War of Independence they were reinforced by exiled American veterans from the black regiments that fought against the rebellion, as a way of winning freedom from slavery.

The indications are that they mixed in with the general population, rather than maintaining a separate community. The chances are that by now a great many white English people have some black ancestors.

Interesting article here from the BBC Open University site - The First Black Britons.

One paragraph in that article to raise the spirit:

The black and white poor of this period were friends, not rivals. So much so, in fact, that Sir John Fielding, a magistrate, and brother of the novelist Henry Fielding, complained that when black domestic servants ran away and, as they often did, found ' ... the Mob on their side, it makes it not only difficult but dangerous to the Proprietor of these Slaves to recover the Possession of them, when once they are sported away'.

thread.cfm?threadid=91272#1737537

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:44 AM

Here's another post from that Black Britons and Folk Music thread:

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,guest - PM
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM

Hiya all
Just a quick note, Black British stuff can be found on 'africlassical.com' checkout Samuel Coldridge Taylor. I would call that stuff Folk! not just classical... Also I am Black British! who listens to folk, Blues etc. but also who is able to enjoy all sorts of music.   I think that most Black musicians in the early/mid 20th c played to earn a living, but unlike in the states, there were too few opportunities to make any sort of living due to who owned the record companies and even if there was an attempt to self finance a record, the Black UK market was small and probably poor. Hence our looking towards America for our music (which we bought back in great numbers from our seafaring days)...

-Joe

-snip-

Here is the link to the website that Joe (Guest guest) mentioned:

http://chevalierdesaintgeorges.homestead.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:43 AM

There was a well-documented wave of immigration from the West Indies into Britain in 1948 on a ship called the Windrush and, as Les has said above, there was a need for workers to combat the labour shortage caused by the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:41 AM

I have found a very interesting article, very much on the lines of what I was trying to say in my first post.

http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent?CONTENT_ITEM_ID=2392&CONTENT_ITEM_TYPE=0&MENU_ID=10596

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:39 AM

Here are three posts or excerpts of posts from Black Britons & Folk Music? about the possible influence early on that Black Britons may have had on British folk music:

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: McGrath of Harlow - PM
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 01:25 PM

Here's an article I linked to on that other thread Azizi mentioned - The First Black Britons*

It's not true that there weren't a fair number of black people in Britain during the slave trade days - but there wasn't any plantation system, or a separated-off culture over the generations. With the end of slavery, descendants of black slaves and freed slaves mingled into the rest of the population. The number of people in England with some black ancestors is probably very high.

Some of the major ports have a different history, in that there have always been a fair number of black sailors over the generations, and as has been noted, the shanty-singing tradition reflects that.

-snip-
* It appears that that link is no longer working, but here is a similar article [if not the same article] that McGrath of Harlow also mentioned in that thread:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/pathways/blackhistory/work_community/docs/london_chronicle.htm


"This report in the London Chronicle indicates some sense of a common identity among Black people in London in the 1760s. According to the report, 'No less than fifty-seven Blacks or Negro servants…, men and women…entertained themselves with dancing and music consisting of violins, French horns and other instruments…till four in the morning.' The claim that Whites were excluded is particularly interesting.

British Library, Burney 5276b, London Chronicle, 16-18 February 1764
By permission of The British Library"


**


Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: GUEST,greg stephens - PM
Date: 10 Dec 04 - 04:12 PM

I seriously think the black contribution to English fiddle music in the period 1650-1850 has been underrated. I really hope that in these more enlightened times(and with a bit more money available for research) that some serious research is done on the next few years, on diaries, playbills and other adverts, and we get a bit more of qa picture of what was actually going on in London and Bristol and Liverpool in that time. I think the results might be very interesting. English music changed a lot in that period, and I have a hunch that black people may have had quite a hand in it.

**

Subject: RE: Black Britons & Folk Music?
From: greg stephens - PM
Date: 22 Dec 04 - 05:56 AM

..."English musicians, like African musicians, are and have always been ingenious and quick to learn. Any African musical person arriving in England in 1700 would have figured out what to do with a fiddle in ten mintues, whether or not they came from north or sug-Saharan Africa. Likewise any English fiddler(or a substantial percentage of English fiddlersa), when coming across a black dancer doing the solo hornpipe spot in an English pub in 1720, or finding a group of black fiddlers giving it some in Liverpool in 1750...well, they are going to react just the same as me faced with Leadbelly in 1957, or the Stones with Muddy Waters, or anybody with Louis Armstrong or Jimi Hendrix. They would say "Give me a slice of that".
   
We really do not need a thriving plantation culture(as in America), or a millions strong sub-culture(as we have now), to explain black influence on indigenous English music in the 18th or 19th century. These things happen easily and quickly. And they will have happened in London, or Liverpool, or Bristol, or Whitehaven, to start with. Not in Little-Piddling-in-the-Mire!. London and Liverpool was where the blacks were, and where there was work in plenty for fiddlers and dancers. That's how, and where, cultural transfers happen.

The sea-change in English fiddle music from 1700 to 1800(and American music) was very much black influenced. That is what I am suggesting. And no, I cant prove it, Neither can anyone else. I would put it in the category of the Bleeding Obvious. I just hope some universities will direct a bit of research money in that direction, to reinforce some of the background information.

-snip-

[spacing changed to enhance reading]

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Rasener
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:37 AM

I am White English, but I do remember my dad explaining what happened after World War 2.
If I remember rightly, he explained that due to the war, there was a massive shortage of labour for mainly meanial jobs in the UK. Consequently, Jamaicans, Wests Indians etc not living in the UK, (but I think think part of the then British Empire) were invited to take up those jobs. Consequently we had a flood of Black people coming to this country. That was very eveident, where I lived in Birmingham as a lad. They settled in principle very well into the community and indeed I played cricket with a lot of the children of those families that came here. I even went to their parties, which were great fun. However, they always thought that I was from the police and the same with my white cricket mates LOL
So 60 years on, they have certainly become an intergral part of the Midlands.

Unfortunately, I am unable to find anything to substantiate the above as my father is no longer alive.

Subject: RE: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:19 AM

Using Mudcat's internal search engine, I found only one discussion thread on the subject of Black Britons:

Black Britons & Folk Music?

I started that thread in December 2004, a few months after I joined Mudcat. There were a number of posts to that thread. The last posting-to date-was on 14 Apr 05 - 02:21 PM.

Subject: BS: Seeking Information About Black Britons
From: Azizi
Date: 06 Jul 09 - 09:11 AM

As an African American I know next to nothing about people of African descent in Great Britain's past. I also know next to nothing about Black people who currently live in Great Britain. And I don't it's only African Americans who know very little about Black Britons. I think other Americans (meaning people from the United States) lack information about this population and their culture/s.

It seems to me that such information could be helpful in discussions about various topics on this forum, including the discussions about the blackening up customs of some Morris Dance groups.

As a means of learning more about Black Britons, I've searched Mudcat archived threads to find what comments/information about this subject have already posted on this forum. In my opinion, having a central resource thread about this broad subject would be helpful to those interested in this subject (including me). Of course, this may be just the category/list making Virgo in me speaking once again.

The purpose of this thread is to provide a listing of and hyperlinks to Mudcat threads on Black Britons. In addition, the purpose of this thread is to provide links to some other Internet resources about that population. This thread will also include excerpts from those postings and Internet articles, reader comments, forum postings etc.

It's my hope that this thread will not just provide information/links, but also elicit insightful, interesting, and respectful discussion on this topic.

Thanks in advance for your participation on this thread.