BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 31 Mar 14 - 01:15 AM

Racism is a form of hate.
Back then everyone was racist. They believed in racial superiority.
One bit in one magazine is not evidence that Ireland was hated.


Culpability is disputed.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.

That is my case, and far from being dead it is the undeniable truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 01:11 PM

And by the way - I'm fascinated to learn that racism isn't hatred - especially that which compares human beings to dangerous animals - it does explain your behaviour on this forum
Lie down - your case is dead
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:54 PM

Jim, I quoted her in context.
She said that revisionism was dominant and long had been.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.

Culpability is disputed.
You can not deny or challenge that fact.


Piss off Keith - your case is dead

This is my case, and far from being dead it is the undeniable truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:38 PM

IF NOT, I AM DONE.

Promises, promises. Less talk, more action, fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:29 PM

In fact - stop altogether - you are a racist turd
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:28 PM

And stop changing the subject
You have selected quotes from Kinealy out of context and deliberately distorted them to lake your case
Stop lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:25 PM

Piss off Keith - your case is dead
We can now you are about to hide behind another word you don't understand and haven't read.
"Blatant, shocking lies Jim."
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree. Massachusetts?"
Stop lying.
"I said it WAS racist Jim, just not evidence of the Irish being hated."
"Political not racist"
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Stop lying
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 12:04 PM

Jim.
Now you have turned on the Irish, describing them as hate filled anti-British zombies poisoned by their biased education system and comparing their "brainwashing" to what happened in 17th century Salem, Massachusetts; you have included Irish Americans in this attack.
Blatant, shocking lies Jim.

You have excused a notorious account of the Irish from the racist 'Punch' Magazine, as being "not racist",
I said it WAS racist Jim, just not evidence of the Irish being hated.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:45 AM

Jim, I am not discussing the famine, just the historiography of it.
(Greg, I know of no books on the historiography of the famine.
DO YOU?
Recommend a couple why don't you?)

My only claim is that culpability is disputed.
Kinealy agrees and adds that revisionism (no culpability)is dominant.

DO YOU CHALLENGE IT JIM?
IF NOT, I AM DONE.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:30 AM

Whoops - missed abit
"Yet it is not only the number of people who died which makes the Famine such a tragedy. It is also the way in which they lost their lives. Death from famine or famine-related diseases is slow, painful and obscene.
Moreover, much of this death from the Famine need not have taken place. The Irish Famine was not just caused by food shortages, it was also due to political and economic choices. As a consequence, ideology triumphed over humanity.
In the face of food shortages, relief provided by the government was inadequate. Imports of food were too small to meet the scale of the problem. At the same time, large amounts of food continued to be exported from Ireland. In 1847 – 'Black '47' – 4,000 ships left Ireland, each carrying large cargoes of food to Britain.
This year marked the 150th anniversary of 'Black '47' – the single year when disease, suffering and mortality were at their highest. But the Famine did not end in 1847. In 1849, the level of mortality was almost as great as it had been in 1847."
Christine Kinealy
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:30 AM

400

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 11:20 AM

"Despite the shortages, the British government decided not to interfere in the marketplace to provide food to the poor Irish, but left food import and distribution to free market forces. Moreover, they allowed foodstuffs – vast amounts of foodstuffs – to be exported from Ireland. Merchants made large profits while people starved. At the same time, public works, which entailed hard physical labor building roads that led nowhere and walls that surrounded nothing, were made the primary form of relief. By the end of 1846, deaths from hunger, exhaustion and famine-related diseases were commonplace. No part of the country, from Belfast to Skibbereen, had escaped."
Christine Kinealy

"An even larger relief organization was the British Relief Association. It was formed in January 1847 by Lionel de Rothschild, a Jewish banker in London. Again, its fundraising activities were international, with donations being received from locations as diverse as Venezuela, Australia, South Africa, Mexico, Russia and Italy. In total, over 15,000 individual contributions were sent to the Association, and approximately £400,000 was raised. This money was entrusted to a Polish count, Paul de Strzelecki, a renowned scientist and explorer. He traveled to Counties Mayo and Sligo in 1847, where he established schools at which free food was given to the local children. Despite falling victim to 'famine fever,' he survived and remained working with the poor in Ireland.
In August 1848, when the Association's funds ran out, the schools were closed despite promises from the Prime Minister that they would be supported. Strzelecki refused to accept any money for his work, but he was knighted by the British government in 1848. Ironically, the only other person to be knighted for his work during the Famine was Charles Trevelyan, Permanent Secretary at the Treasury, who was renowned for his parsimonious approach to relief."
Christine Kinealy

"A key objective of Irish revisionism was to exorcise the ghost of nationalism from historical discourse and to replace it with historical narratives that persistently played down the separateness and the trauma, and derided the heroes and villains of Irish history".
Christine Kinealy

Issue of culpability avoided
Thirdly, the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts. Moreover, both the landlords and the British government have been rehabilitated; the former frequently being shown as hapless victims themselves, and the latter, as being ignorant of the real state of affairs in Ireland, and lacking both the financial and administrative capability to alleviate the situation anyway.
Christine Kinealy

To make this possible, a comprehensive and nation-wide machinery was created within Ireland in the space of only a few months. As a consequence of this scheme, mortality began to fall as, for the first and only time during the Famine, the problem of hunger was confronted directly.
But the soup kitchens were only ever intended to be a short-term measure, and after the government closed them in the autumn of 1847, mortality again rose sharply. This brief episode, however, in which free food was provided on a nation-wide basis, demonstrated that the administrative capability to provide relief existed. Unfortunately for the poor of Ireland, the political and ideological will to continue the scheme did not exist.
Christine Kinealy

No practical impediment to government intervention
Fifthly, there is a persistent claim that the British government in the 1840s possessed neither the practical nor the political means to either close the ports or import additional foodstuffs to Ireland. This is nonsense. Throughout the eighteenth century, and in 1817, 1822 and indeed, in 1845, the Irish and British governments imported food for resale in Ireland. In the subsistence crisis of 1782, an embargo was placed on the export of grain from Ireland, despite the opposition of Irish grain merchants. Furthermore, in the subsistence crisis of 1845 to 1847, which occurred throughout Europe, governments throughout the continent responded by temporarily closing their ports to exports (Portugal, Turkey, Russia, amongst others). This was, in fact, a traditional response to Famine conditions. Also, as the Corn Law crisis proved, there was no practical or ideological impediment to government intervention in the market place when it suited the purposes of the government.
Christine Kinealy

In regard to the Famine, INTERPRETATIONS WHICH HINTED AT THE ISSUE OF CULPABILITY OF THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT WERE PIGEON-HOLED AS BEING APOLOGISTS AND PERPETRATORS OF THE NATIONALIST STRUGGLE. Perhaps this accounts for the dearth of serious scholarly research on the Famine, most notably by historians within Ireland.
Christine Kinealy

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 10:49 AM

she has not written a single book on historiography.

And you have not READ a single book on historiograpy, and wouldn't recognize historiography should it rear up on its hind legs and bite you on the arse.

I am done with this discussion.

'Tis a consumnation devoutly to be wish'd. Thank God, and not before time.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 10:43 AM

Greg, she has not written a single book on historiography.
She has written about it in History Ireland, and I quoted her.

Jim you post lies about me when you have nothing else.

In this whole discussion you can not challenge a single thing that I have said.
Instead you claim I have posted wrong or bad things in ancient threads.
I never have.
I do not hold the views you ascribe to me.

Now, if you can not challenge my and Kinealy's claim that historians are divided and revisionists are dominant, I am done with this discussion.

ARE YOU CHALLENGING IT???????

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 09:52 AM

I do not think Kinealy contradicts in her books what she says in History Ireland

You do not think.... period. Try READING her books. Then you'll find out. Or, more likely, you'll simply dismiss it, a susual, if not in accord wioth your pre-concieve notions.

Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 08:45 AM

Good luck with the 400 by the way - that appears to be your sole objective in participating in subjects you know nothing about - scoring points
"And what do point mean - points mean prizes!!"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 08:32 AM

You have a list of the people you have targeted,
You have been given examples of what the historians you haven't read have said - you choose to ignore them
You do what you do and you are what you are.
What false accusations would they be?
All those 'false accusations' have been reproduced for you over and over again and you have confirmed that you still hold those opinions.
Your Irish opinions come in quotes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:54 AM

And ... you always make those false accusations against me when you can not challenge what I actually say.
Here, you can not challenge the fact that historians are divided.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 07:28 AM

Jim, my only case in this whole discussion is that historians are divided on the issue of culpability.

Why does that make you so angry when it is the simple truth?

I have never even expressed an opinion about the famine, except to describe it as a human catastrophe.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 04:24 AM

This really has gone far enough
In the past you have mounted campaigns against entire communities and races, describing Muslims in general as potential terrorists and British Pakistanis in particular as "implanted cultural" perverts.
Now you have turned on the Irish, describing them as hate filled anti-British zombies poisoned by their biased education system and comparing their "brainwashing" to what happened in 17th century Salem, Massachusetts; you have included Irish Americans in this attack.
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive. Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree. Massachusetts?"
You have excused a notorious account of the Irish from the racist 'Punch' Magazine, as being "not racist", so presumably you believe it to be an accurate physical description of my predecessors
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
Your mate had described those who were forced to flee the Famine, again my predecessors, as:
" a combination of indolence, ignorance and intransigence the necessary changes were actively resisted
This latter included the Scots who wre forced to flee Scoctland in similar circumstances in that description.
This is not only racism run riot, but it is an open attack on very many members of this forum
My family originated in Ireland - they were refugees from the Famine.
Many of my family`members received ad are still receiving Irish educations, aunts, uncles, cousins, and their children and grandchildren.
This is also the case with native Irish and Irish Americans who contribute to this thread - so your arguments are directed at all of us.
To back up your arguments you have concocted a theory based on historians you have not read (admitted), and cannot possibly their views on these matters.
The irony of all this of course, is that having accused the Irish of inbred hatred, you display more personal hatred in a handful of postings than I have ever encountered in a lifetime of arguments and discussions.
If I feel the anger that I do about your racist attacks n me, my family and my neighbours, I cannot begin to imagine how a Muslim and especially a British Pakistani would feel if they stumbled on one of your racist diatribes.
I have always admired the cosmopolitan nature of this forum and have been grateful to read and share views with people from other backgrounds, cultures and races.
I don't believe there are any Muslim members of this forum - little wonder!
Should you be allowed to persist in your efforts, Mudcat stands to be turned into an exclusively W.A.S.P site.
Should the administrators of this site consider closing this thread, I request that it be left open long enough for it to be appreciated in all its full glory before doing so.
As a footnote, I have just been informed by a kind forum fairy that someone has set up a fake Flickr account (I don't have one) on my behalf containing Irish military memorabilia - it seems to be the level of intelligence these things operate at.
I firmly suggest to those in charge that, should you attempt to indulge in racist and cultural attacks such as these in future, especially when they involve other forum members, you should be stopped immediately and, should you persist, that you be barred from membership of this forum altogether
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 14 - 01:49 AM

My interest here is historiography, not history.
Have you read any books on that?
Are there any?

I do not think Kinealy contradicts in her books what she says in History Ireland.
Does she Greg?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:05 PM

Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online

No no, fuckwit: her BOOKS - not an op-ed article.

Go read a couple & get back to us, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:26 PM

Well Jim, I think she said that the revisionist view is "dominant."
Are you claiming I am wrong??

No.
You can not.

I also think that she said, "the issue of culpability has been consistently avoided or denied in revisionist accounts."
Are you claiming I am wrong??

No.
You can not.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 03:46 PM

"Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?"
"a simple YES or NO."
Do you still beat your wife - a simple yes or no will do fine?
Now you really are showing your prattish desperation.
I believe the policy adopted by the British Government gave rise to the outcome - one million plus deaths and mass emigration for generations to come.
Trevelyan - the instigator of Britain's policy, made it quite clear that he detested the Irish, that he believed the Famine to be divine retribution and that the consequences of the Famine would be in the interests of the British Empire.
Whether the British Government had thought through their policies of non-action to their logical conclusion remains a moot point - the fact that those policies wrought the holocaust that it did does not - that's what Britain did (or didn't do - that's what happened)
Why the **** are you asking me to repeat what I have already said several times - you are now sounding like another of Keith's moronic Daleks?
You refuse to respond to Britain's policy - fine, no answer is answer enough for me.
You have flipped and somersaulted around Trevelyan's attitude to the Irish - all a fake, just his opinion, nothing to do with British policy.
Trevelyan was Britain's mouthpiece on Irish policy, they appointed him, they honoured him for what he had done for Ireland - they were responsible for what happened in Ireland.
There is a logic behind the claim that what Britain did was deliberate - it suited Britain to have s subservient colony as a neighbour, but even if it was not a deliberate act of Genocide, it was an act of Genocide through malicious inaction - take your pick.
Not only do you still have to respond to the actual facts of British policy - you have yet to even mention the half century of evictions that consolidated what the Famine had done.
on't you dare suggest I have hidden behind cut-'n-pasted you distorting shit - most of those I have put up are taken from Keith's links - and eve if they are not, they beat your distorted and unqualified waffle hands down.
Now about that wife-beating - yes or no?
"Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain,"
There we go - Trevelyan writ large - thought you said I was making it all up - you'll be claiming that all Irishmen were simian-like braideads who have been brainwashed into hating Britain next - just like our learned-without ever reading a single work Keith; but there agai, he's already told us he is infallible
"Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online and we have discussed it in detail."
to lying - you obviously have not read it, let alone discussed it - very selective quoting is not discussion - neither is ignoring everything she wrote because it doesn't suit your anti-Irish racist agenda.
And has said everything you have not - callous indifference, failure to apportion blame, romanticism rather than finger-pointing....
It's all there, should you ever venture to read more than one paragraph at a time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:52 PM

Nobody wh has never read a single book on the subject, or has never had the interest to have done so can possibly know anything whatever on this subject
"DENY THAT"

Yes I deny that.
I know for an absolute fact that the issue of culpability is disputed.
With all your reading, do you deny that?

I know for an absolute fact that Kinealy, who is in a position to know, says that revisionism is "dominant."
With all your reading, do you deny that.

You only read nationalist historians anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 12:45 PM

Ah but Greg, her essay in History Today is online and we have discussed it in detail.
She says,"Revisionism has dominated Irish historiography since the 1930s, and more intensely since the 1960s."

As you say, "Fuckwit."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:44 AM

It was Kinealy who stated that they are a majority.

Ah, but Keith: you're never actually READ Kinealy, so you know bugger all about what she said or didn't say.

Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM

Christmas:

Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?

No vast tracts of cut'n'pastes just a simple YES or NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:12 AM

By the way - you are still attempting to talk down to people from the hole you have dug for yourself - entertainment value at least
" that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion"
Yup - a government appointee put in charge of feeding the people he hated
Kicking the milkman's horse again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 10:04 AM

"Jim they are taught to blame the British government of the day"
If you read what your own historians say (you obviously don't ever read your own links) you will find that their point is that causes have been ignored and blame not dealt with - just effects.
Nobody wh has never read a single book on the subject, or has never had the interest to have done so can possibly know anything whatever on this subject
"DENY THAT"
Still nothing on Government policy Sergrant major - just more diversive waffle
As you were - so to speak
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:50 AM

1: "Ireland was Britain's responsibility and they delibarately abused that responsibility fot the 'good of Empire'."

Nope the Irish themselves, must bear responsibility for the condition of the country, its land tenure agreements and how they viewed its management, and how they ran their estates and farms. The British Government did not have any responsibility to any land-owner in the United Kingdom to ensure that he ran his estates effectively or efficiently. There was no nanny society in the 19th century, no BIG GOVERNMENT.

2: "The Irish economy, agrarian and rural, was as it was under British rule - It wasn't changed in any way because it suited the Empire to leave it as it was - Britain's breadbasket.

There were no attempts at modernisation - it remained a basic peasant economy - and referred to as such.

That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast.

Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed. "

No Christmas, wrong on every single point:

- Ireland had up until 1801 been self-governing, the fact that it was corrupt and inefficient through a mixture of indolence and ignorance was no fault of mainland Britain, or it's Government. Various Commissions had looked into the questions with a view to improvement subsequent to the Act of Union in 1801, the Devon Commission (1845) being only one of them. By the way Christmas what you are presenting here is a contradiction. IF, as you claim, the British Government had set up Ireland's economy to be agrarian and rural for the benefit of Britain or the Empire, then they would be, by default, acting against their own interests surely to destroy what they had supposedly created through deliberate mass emigration – True? Yet that is what you say they did. Can't have both must be one or the other.

- Tell me Christmas what great Government funded "improvement" programmes were instigated by way of "modernization" elsewhere in Great Britain and throughout the Empire from say from the 1700s onwards? You see I don't think there were any, all investments that tended towards improvements and modernization be they industrial or agricultural were privately funded in those days. Take the sub-continent of India for example. At the time of the Mogul Empire only 5% of the land was irrigated by 1850 over 25% of it was – all financed by the private enterprises that would benefit from the increased production brought about by the improvements. So much for your contention that - " That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast." - British investment in India was massive.

- Examples please of instances where: " Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed. " - I won't hold my breath, the statement doesn't even make any sense.

3: "Britain simply refused to deal with a famine which had was the consequence of an economy it had imposed on Ireland "

The economy of Ireland was precisely that of the one that had been "imposed" by the Irish land-owners prior to the Act of Union. By the mid-1800s, after a string of successive famines and food shortages, it was patently obvious that change was required but due to a combination of indolence, ignorance and intransigence the necessary changes were actively resisted (The opposite was true 140 years prior to that in Scotland were the improvements brought about through England's agricultural revolution were fully embraced and welcomed, Scotland having just lost about 20% of its population to famine.).

4: "Government employees - Civil Servants - DO NOT MAKE GOVERNMENT POLICY" - Teribus

"I've just said that - keep up" – Jim Carroll

Really Christmas?? Care to explain this earlier exchange then:

""The greatest evil with which we have to contend is not the physical evil of the famine, but the moral evil of the selfish, perverse and turbulent character of the people"

Don't know about you Christmas but that would appear to be an expression of someone's opinion " - Teribus

"That was the opinion of a policy MAKING Government employee" – Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:23 AM

"It was as responsible for assisting the Famine victims as it would have been if it had taken place in Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol;

Apples to Oranges Christmas.

Tell me what sort of famine, similar to the one that struck Ireland, could have struck Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol? Noting of course that the Irish cities of Cork, Dublin and Belfast actually increased in size during the famine, industrialised Belfast hardly felt the effects of it.

it chose not to help other than to provide financial assistance to leave Ireland"

Really?? So no Indian Corn was purchased, no additional workhouses were built, in 1848 no 227,329 people were receiving relief in Irish workhouses, no three-quarters of a million people had been provided with food and a daily wage, three million people were not being fed. The only assistance given was in the form of assisted passage eh? What complete and utter rot, once again nothing but deliberate misrepresentation and lies.

Any idea what the most effective way to deal with a famine is according to various UN Aid Agencies Christmas? You should look it up it might surprise you (Hint: It has got S.F.A. to do with providing food, which they reckon is the worst thing you can do.)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:13 AM

More of the "most historians" bullshit, fuckwit?

It was Kinealy who stated that they are a majority.
It is ungracious of you to call such an eminent historian "fuckwit" Greg.
"Fuckwit" compared to who?
You?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:09 AM

Jim they are taught to blame the British government of the day, not the "English as a race" !
Deny that?

It is automatically assumed that the responsibility for the Famine lies with the British

No it is not!
Not by the majority of historians.
It is disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 09:02 AM

a version of events that most historians do not support?

More of the "most historians" bullshit, fuckwit?

Jaysus.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:40 AM

"As for your concern about historians.
Can we clear this thing up about education and historians once and for all.
Historians today have slated past historians for dealing only with the effects of the famine - a tug on the emotional (National) heartstrings, rather than examining why what happened, happened.
Both Kinealy and Neilson seem to be arguing that nobody, to date, has dealt in any detail with the causes of the Famine.
Kinealy says that the reason for this, and the reason for why so many historians continue to do so, is to run the risk of handing the dissident Republican factions propaganda ammunition - a hint that she believes that the facts actually bear out the Republican (political) case.
It is automatically assumed that the responsibility for the Famine lies with the British - how could it be otherwise; Britain ruled Ireland and controlled its economy.
It was as responsible for assisting the Famine victims as it would have been if it had taken place in Manchester, Birmingham or Bristol; it chose not to help other than to provide financial assistance to leave Ireland
Any material assistance for the starving Irish came from charities such as the Quakers, and in some case, even this came with the price of changing your religion in exchange for a bowl of soup (not from the Quakers, I hasten to add).
This said, in the half a century I have been personally associated with Ireland, I have never encountered a scrap of anti-English racist abuse; that period includes the 20 years of partition and sectarian -generated 'Troubles'
We, and dozens more English people visited this town to see it draped in black flags at the time the hunger strikers were dying and received the same welcome we have always received.
This isn't to say that the Irish don't hate our politicians - don't we all?
Apart from one exception (itinerancy) the only place there is a significant race or sectarian problem in in the 'British' north, with arson attacks on the homes of asylum seekers and annual aggressive marches.
It is a scurrilous lie to suggest that Irish people have been taught, or believe in any way, that the English as a race are to blame for the Famine.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:14 AM

Jim, do you deny that Irish schoolkids were taught to blame Britain by government decree?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 08:05 AM

1: "You have been given the chronological list of the Great Irish Famine containing further statements by Trevelyan stating that the British economy was more important than feeding the Irish people (Government official policy)"

Christmas, apart from defence of the realm, what do you think the prime responsibility of the Government of any country is? Of course the economy of the country (Population of the whole at the time being some 25 million) was more important than feeding approximately 2 million people – If you disagree with that then you must be one of those clowns who when faced with any real problem advocates throwing the baby out with the bath water – You would seriously recommend putting 23 million at risk in your efforts to save 2 million?

On the strength of that British economy in the period we are talking about, you really should do some research '46; '47 & '48 Great Britain went through a financial crisis roughly equivalent to that recently experienced in 2008 – not waffle, merely a matter of recorded fact.

Also a matter of record is the fact that by the mid-1800s the Empire was actually costing Great Britain money.

2: As to you never claiming that there was a deliberate policy of genocide, or ethnic cleansing? Please explain your references to it, all taken directly from your contributions to this thread?

A: "I really did begin to wonder whether somebody who confesses to never having read a book on the subject really does know more than every single contributor to this forum, including those of us whose understanding of it is based on the fact that many of our ancestors (not only mine) fled from Ireland directly because of England's genocidal policy – whew what a relief!!"

B: "coming from a man in his position, that can only be construed as Government policy, in which case, The Famine was used as an exercise in ethnic cleansing."

C: "That policy was made clear by Britain'r representative in Ireland, Sir Charles Trevelyan' in a letter - it is indisputable British policy.

Your breathtaking cowardice in even acknowledging this statement, let alone trying to explain away the genocidal implications of it "

D: "John Mitchel, the Young Ireland leader, transported in 1848 to Van Diemens Land, had a different view, calling the famine "an artificial famine. Potatoes failed in like manner all over Europe; yet there was no famine save in Ireland. The Almighty, indeed, sent the potato blight, but the English created the famine".

E: "In a way, all historians are 'revisionists' on the subject - none of them have dealt with the Trevelyan letter and its implications of deliberate ethnic cleansing."

F: "I personally can't see how such a statement from Britain's powerful representative in Ireland cannot possibly be construed in any other way than 'ethnic cleansing and holocaust'

G: "It was the genocidal inaction that every single historian who has written on the subject has condemned - the racism that was behind it just explained that inaction.

H: "Because of the way the Famine was mishandled (some believe deliberately) Ireland was never able to recover it"

I: "You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal "

3: As far as your attacks on Keith go, having gone through the exchanges on this thread I have found that at no time at all in any of his posts to this thread has he ever stated either of the following views:

A: "All you have ever said is "Britain didn't do it"

B: "from the start your line was that Britain was in no way responsible for the Famine"

You always bitterly resent it with complete and utter indignation when people put words in your mouth, yet you are not beyond inventing and quoting arguments and comments for people that they have never espoused - truly despicable behaviour.

Simple question for you Christmas that only requires a YES or NO answer.

Do you believe that the British Government carried out a deliberate policy of genocide in Ireland between the years 1845 and 1851?

No vast tracts of cut'n'pastes just a simple YES or NO.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 07:05 AM

I obviously can't speak for Ireland, but I can say that the USA and NY in particular have a long history of immigration... and many of those new immigrants came because of lack of options back home... and some to save their lives.

As for your concern about historians... we have school boards that want to teach creationism as a science and plenty that view the War Between the States... aka the American Civil War... as strictly a matter of state's rights - slavery had NOTHING to do with it. And despite photographic evidence and still a few eyewitnesses, there are those who claim the Nazi purges & Holocaust is a hoax.

Perhaps a population that has many residents and their families who have suffered injustice in their original homelands might just have a different perspective than your historians... who may be in the majority now but are not without opposition. Who can say what another 50 years will bring?

From AP at the time:

ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) _ New York school children must be taught about the Irish potato famine under a bill Gov. George Pataki plans to sign Wednesday in a New York City ceremony with Irish President Mary Robinson.

Pataki counsel Michael Finnegan said the law will be the first in the nation to require teaching about the famine, which killed or uprooted millions in Ireland during the 1840s.

The bill mandates that the famine be portrayed as a human rights violation akin to genocide, slavery and the Holocaust _ subjects the state has mandated students be taught since 1994.

Some legislators complained the requirement will be another burden for already failing schools.

Republican Assemblyman John Faso of Columbia County, just south of Albany, called the bill a ``silly'' exercise in political correctness.

But Democratic Assemblyman Joseph Crowley of Queens, the bill's prime sponsor, said the famine has relevance in today's world.

``Hunger is still being used as a tool of subjugation, as a means of keeping people down, in places like Somalia, Ethiopia and China,'' Crowley said.

While triggered by a blight of the potato crop starting in 1845, Irishmen and historians have argued for generations over whether the attitude of the ruling British government contributed to the misery.

An estimated 1 million of Ireland's 7 million people died during the crisis _ some say more _ and 2 million or more fled the island. Many of those refugees settled in New York.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 07:01 AM

The idea of brainwashing children is a disgusting one and anybody who suggests if has been carried out systematically by any Government or political influence is a disgusting individual.
Irish people, as a whole, are an extremely hospitable and welcoming group of people and for somebody who has never read a book to suggest that they have been conned by any political agenda or are unaware of their own history is disgusting arrogance.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:41 AM

Why decree they teach a version of events that most historians do not support?
The result in Ireland has been that many people, like Jim, are unaware that the issue is even disputed.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:27 AM

Since it's been awhile since my school days in NYS, I had to check out the 1996 curriculum change mentioned above

here is a link:   books.google.com/books?isbn=0299187144

however, the CHANGES made also include study of the holocaust and the historic treatment of blacks in the US. Hardly singling out Britain or promoting hate mongering. Instead the stated goal is to make students aware of how prevailing attitudes coupled with government actions or inactions can contribute to human suffering.

They didn't remove the American Revolution or FDR's Lend Lease Program... they just added a few more areas to be covered... but don't worry, I'm sure our kids have managed to sleep through them as well as they have the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 06:00 AM

Game, set and match
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 05:59 AM

hate filled zombie mobs of Irish and Irish-American brainwashed schoolchildren

Where did that come from?
I did state that by decree a version of history had to be taught in Irish and NY State schools.
I did not make it up. I gave reliable sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 05:56 AM

The issue isn't 19th century racism in Britain, but your 21st century support for it

I never have and never would, and to say I do is an attempt to smear with lies anyone who challenges your view on anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:36 AM

The issue isn't 19th century racism in Britain, but your 21st century support for it - a simple answer to your question.
I can't imagine how you are going to deal with you hate filled zombie mobs of Irish and Irish-American brainwashed schoolchildren
It really is difficult to unsay what has been said on open forum, isn't it?
Too late, too late the maiden cried
Have a good day
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:09 AM

Keep it up Keith - you're doing a grand job
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 04:04 AM

Views held then were undoubtedly racist.
People believed in racial superiority in those days.
Not just in Britain but everywhere.

But, there was no hatred of the Irish in Britain.
At that time, the most celebrated national hero, Wellington, was Irish as were the best writers.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 03:56 AM

"Please remind me what it was."
That you regard comparing Irish famine refugees seeking to earn a living in England after an inconceivable holocaust which brought about the deaths of over as million of their fellow-countrymen, as "not racist" will do for starters.   
"A creature manifestly between the Gorilla and the Negro is to be met with in some of the lowest districts of London and Liverpool by adventurous explorers. It comes from Ireland, whence it has contrived to migrate; it belongs in fact to a tribe of Irish savages: the lowest species of Irish Yahoo. When conversing with its kind it talks a sort of gibberish. It is, moreover, a climbing animal, and may sometimes be seen ascending a ladder laden with a hod of bricks.
-Satire entitled "The Missing Link", from the British magazine Punch, 1862 "
That you let pass on the nod the fact that contained in that description, which you describe as "not racist" is a clear indication that Britain regarded all foreigners, especially those of a different colour as being on the same level as animals.
"A creature manifestly between the GORILLA AND THE NEGRO
That you pass off the Irish and Irish American populations, particularly schoolchildren, as hate-filled morons, comparable to dementedly murderous seventeenth-century religious fanatics who allowed themselves to be whipped into frenzied mobs of killers, just about adds the topping to your racist concoction.
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?"
Many thanks for further confirmation to a long -held opinion.
All I need to make my day is for you blustering, bullshitting friend to back you up in your opinion.... but I doubt even he would go as far as you have. whatever he may believe on the subject.
This has bee a good start to the day - I wonder what the rest of it will bring.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Mar 14 - 02:24 AM

Can you say what it was Greg.
Of course not.
"Fuckwit."