BS: Clapping for the NHS

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 01:49 PM

Clearly we can't have anything nice here. The group ganging up on this thread to talk politics, to discuss moderation, to request particular moderation (we tried to add something new and you decided it meant you could get away with all sorts of crap) isn't what this thread was about.

---

Eliza and I had a conversation, after the moderators had a conversation, about the behavior of the British men on this thread.

This is what I told Eliza in one of our exchanges:
"It is strange - many of them I consider friends, but they simply refused to "get it" when they were told they were off topic and bullying others. I saw a group of middle-aged and older white British men announcing to the women on the thread that what they wanted to discuss was okay because it was what they wanted to talk about. And when I said "no," then they wanted to argue about it. None of that having to do with the thread."

I do consider many of you friends, but I am deeply disappointed at how incredibly thoughtless and dense you were regarding this topic. And how dismissive of the attempt to turn the thread around. You guys can do better; let's hope the turnaround comes real soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 12:18 PM

If you haven't seen it on Instagram, you might want to find and follow @goodnews_movement. It's run by @iammichellefigueroa and has been a huge boost for people supporting healthcare workers, grocery clerks, delivery people, first- and last- response workers, and neighbors working the cheer their neighbors.

This article might help you track it down: https://people.com/royals/how-meghan-markle-and-prince-harrys-only-follow-on-instagram-is-changing-the-social-media-game/

Or try this: Instagram. This is world-wide coverage.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 12:09 PM

Eliza started this thread to talk about supporting health care workers and other front-line help. She didn't start it so some of you could ramp up the political discussions or complain about moderation or keep sniping to see if the next set of off-topic complaints have been removed.

Grow up. Let this thread be what it was intended and go talk politics on the UK political thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 11:40 AM

There are comparable episodes of applause in the US, especially in hard hit places like New York City and New Orleans. Lines of police and firefighters on the street outside the hospital staff exits as well. It isn't like they can do anything about the personal protective equipment, the lack of ventilators, the piling up of bodies, but they can express support. A friend of mine lives a block north of the old St. Vincent's location - in an email the other day he remarked on the time, noting that he could hear people clapping from the street and surrounding buildings. He's usually a curmudgeon to do with city noise, but I think the streets are so much quieter now that it's probably a surreal thing to hear.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 08:56 AM

41 grocery clerks have died from Covid here. They made $11.31 an hour.
They are first responders too.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 08:08 AM

I didn't perceive that as pressure to applaud, Doug. Not did I see calling it a vacuous, flag waving charade as pressure to stop doing it. But I do take your point about pressure being as much about how it is received. I cannot say how PFR received it but his robust response makes me think he is not one to buckle under easily!

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 07:04 AM

Nope. A firmly-expressed point of view is not pressure. In no way was I telling him what to do. And we are all grown-ups here, Doug. Cue cheap shot response from someone or other...

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 06:05 AM

Ok, no pressure on here ....

Communication, and miscommunication for that matter, is about how things are received as much as how they are intended.

So you may well be my mate on this forum. But if you knew about the 8pm applause tonight but decided not to turn out, well sod you. You are so wrong.

Some might interpret that as pressure.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 04:39 AM

He is being pressured though, Steve. Some time back he said his neighbours are bringing pressure to bear and there are local right wing thugs involved. Ok, no pressure on here but I am quite happy to provide a vent for the frustration caused elsewhere :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: mg
Date: 13 Apr 20 - 12:38 AM

i think clapping is fine but excessive noise when people might be struggling with this illness might not be the most sensitive approach. Some of what I have seen in other countries like loud instruments would not be my choice of sound if i were ill

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 10:55 PM

Well, I may have gotten the media interested...

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 12:27 PM

"..so stuff it up the jumper of any mates trying to impose their opinionated will
on anyone else..."

For the fifth time...nobody is trying to impose their will on anybody else. If you don't want to clap, don't clap. That's great. I simply think that your opinion about the clapping, as you bluntly expressed it here (vacuous, short-term, populist...) is wrong. Please note the word THINK. If you can be blunt in that manner, you shouldn't be surprised that someone who doesn't agree with you can be just as blunt. The people who turn out to applaud are doing it for good motives. The words you used sounded like words of ridicule and came across as mean-spirited.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 12:15 PM

No one is trying to impose anything on anyone, PFR. It's entirely up to you whether you clap or not. Just as I can choose to join without being accused of being involved in a vacuous, flag-saving charade :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 12:05 PM

I've got about 300 watts of mini PA, and a drum machine with hand-clap samples..

.. and they can stay in their storage boxes..

Because I personally thank care workers and NHS staff, by phone and emails just about every day...

..so stuff it up the jumper of any mates trying to impose their opinionated will
on anyone else...

No matter how well-intentioned they think they're being...

I also just thanked a front-line essential worker teacher again,
and nearly put my back out in the process...

[Right, I'm tearing that page out of Dr Comfort's manual as well...!!!]

WE can all do our OWN little bit to share the LOVE for real heroes
in our OWN positive ways...


Take care Bonz mate, whatever our politics, our love for our spouses is a universal bond
WE ALL have in common...

AND MANY THANKS to the emergency paramedic crew and A&E staff
who looked after my old mum so recently after a fall,
and a very bruised bum...

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 11:27 AM

Bejaysus, I have two bodhrans unused for 25 years. I forgot about them. Out they're coming!

We used to get an annual visit by a spoons "player" who used to dress up as a Roundhead (or was it a Cavalier...) at our session years ago, for one of those re-enactments. Eventually, I seriously had to tell him to bugger off. Even he would be welcome of a Thursday evening now!

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 08:52 AM

I have dug out the bodhran and the tambourine. Heaven help the neighbours :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 08:44 AM

If it's a thread about the NHS, it's going to get political. Labour founded the NHS in the teeth of bitter Tory opposition whether you like it or not, and, true to their natural instincts, the Tories have run down the NHS concertedly. Four years ago a report stated that the NHS was not in a proper state to handle a major crisis. That report was ignored by the Tories. We are now several months into this crisis and doctors and nurses on the front line are dying or getting sick through lack of proper protective gear, and haven't been tested in timely manner to make sure that they aren't spreading the virus in hospitals. Now we hear that there is an impending shortage of vital anaesthetics and that doctors may have to look for less desirable alternatives. The voting choices of those who chose Tory have brought this about, whether they meant to or not. We don't know what Labour would have done had they been in, and silly guesswork about that is shallow and disingenuous. The Tories have had ten years with an NHS that was in pretty decent nick when they took over after 13 years of Labour, lest we forget, and just look at us now. As for going out to applaud, for the fourth time, it's grand if you don't want to. But coming on a forum with lofty statements about how it's infra dig, or that you "don't do display", etc., or that you consider it to be useless, short-term, vacuous or populist, is a kick in the teeth for all those good-hearted people who actually just want to show that they care and express solidarity with front-line workers. It's your perfect right to say those things, but it's also our perfect right to say that we think you're wrong-headed about it, not for not doing it, but when you speak out against it. My bin lid is all ready for 8 PM Thursday.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Mrrzy
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 08:13 AM

Bonzo, best of wishes to your wife.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: fat B****rd
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 08:08 AM

Best thoughts from Dunfermline, Bonzo
Charlie

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 07:26 AM

THank you Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 06:58 AM

That wasn't directed at you Dave

Maybe not conciously, Eliza but as your response came immediately after my post I think I may have triggered something. There is a much better may to support the NHS of course. Don't assist those that would dismantle it :-)

My thoughts are with you too, Bonzo. Hope your wife gets better soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Thompson
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 06:53 AM

In Ireland we have done some of the clapping sessions that have crossed the world, but lately we're doing what we do on Christmas Eve: putting a light in the window.

Traditionally this is a candle left in the window to guide the Holy Family on their wanderings towards Bethlehem; it used also be the custom to lay an extra place at the table… whether anyone actually invited in any wandering beggar as is the intention of this custom is another question.

The light in the window now is a salute to, a thanks to, and a protective wish for all the medics, hospital cleaners, hospital porters, ambulance and fire brigade staff, gardaí and others who are keeping the light of civilisation alive amid the pandemic.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 06:42 AM

Thank you Eliza

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 06:12 AM

My thoughts are with you Bonzo. Hope she's soon feeling better.
Eliza x

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 05:40 AM

You can clap for my wife who is trying to bring her temperature down with ice packs.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 05:34 AM

That wasn't directed at you Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 05:08 AM

stop attacking me

I didn't attack you, Eliza. Why so defensive? And it is the Tories that have tried to turn the clapping for the NHS into a political gesture.

Clap for Boris

Now, that IS despicable

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 04:27 AM

Why do some people on here try to inject political posturing into any thread they come across? I thought Mudcat now allowed only ONE political thread, but here we go again.
I am sick and tired of being lambasted about my voting choice when I merely wished to discuss social gestures and ways of supporting the NHS workers with applause etc.
Please,stay on the Politics thread and stop attacking me, it's absolutely infuriating (and despicable).

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 07:48 PM

"I don't do display." Well bugger me. Not a lot to brag about there, is there? :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:11 PM

I have absolute admiration for both NHS workers and likewise private sector hospital workers who are now looking after NHS patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:00 PM

Thank you for that Raedwulf, I don't do display either. It doesn't mean I have no respect or admiration in my heart for NHS workers, or any other group that is doing its best for our society.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Raedwulf
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 04:18 PM

I feel the same, Sen, don't worry. And I, ooo-arr, am Naarfolk tu, as 'ee knoe, lass! ;-)

I don't wear my team's shirt, I don't fly a Union or England Flag. I donate to the Royal British Legion every year, but I never take a poppy. Doesn't mean I don't respect. I just don't do display.

A very left-leaning friend posted a meme this morning that amounted to "Were you applauding them 5 years ago? Will you be applauding them in 5 years? And why did you vote the Tories back in if you respect the NHS so much?" Etc. I respected NHS workers before this started, I'll respect them after it ends and, to be honest, this hasn't changed that all. They've always had a difficult job to do, not least because the electorate keep voting the CON jobs in!*

Do I feel the need to clap to show respect? No. I can understand that there are reasons for doing so, especially if you live in a fairly urban environment. It strengthens community feeling for one. But I don't think the newly-sown field of spinach out front of me is going to be all that influenced, one way or the other if I do it or don't...

*NB: I don't vote for the LAB rats either. They'd only screw things up differently, not less or more. But at least they'd fund the NHS better, instead of trying to screw it into the ground!

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 04:25 AM

The point here is that it is offensive to refer to warm and genuine expressions of gratitude for the workers who put themselves in harm's way in these extraordinary times (as opposed to normal, safer times, Doug) in negative terms such as vacuous, short-term and populist. Of course, we have no right not to be offended, but neither has pfr if we bite back. And this is a mid-morning post.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 08:57 PM

Nobody is pressured to conform, and that's the third time I've said that. The nub of this issue here, denied by pfr who is usually so honest and straightforward, is that he attacked the actions of the millions who went out to applaud as vacuous, short-term and populist (blimey, "populist" fer chrissake!). As if he knows why we went out and did it, which he patently doesn't. I personally don't give a flying shite about "the practical value" of the Thursday night applauding. I for one don't turn out to do it for any "practical value". I do it to show support for and solidarity with the health workers, care workers, supermarket workers and school workers who are all putting themselves in harm's way for the good of others, including me, which happens to be a damn sight more than I'm doing. I'm not going to judge the motives of anyone else who turns out to applause. There's way too much bloody judging going on as it is. I hear judging of people sunbathing in parks by people with private gardens the size of football fields. I hear tut-tutting of people sitting on the beach by people with massive balconies with panoramic sea views. You can shove your judging where the sun don't shine as far as I'm concerned. I'll be out there next Thursday and I happen to have a gorgeous dustbin lid to bang. Join me if you want or don't bother. But if you're too "embarrassed," or you think we're all being a bit stupid and vacuous, well just shut yer gob about it. You have seriously got better things to whine about.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 07:28 PM

Hospitals have been treating sick people, with all sorts of infectious diseases, before the arrival of Covid-19 but nobody applauded then. The current pandemic will fade away in time and, with it, the weekly applause. The applause may, in fact, fade away first as the novelty wears off.

I am sure that most people joining in the 8 o’clock applause are showing solidarity and this will give support to those being applauded, but there will also be a number who are simply taking part in an ‘event’, in the same way as those who line the streets for a newsworthy funeral of someone they have never met. They are doing for their own benefit, so they can feel involved.
(before anyone takes offence, I am not classing anyone who has contributed to this thread in the latter group)

Unlike bears, coronavirus can’t be scared off by lots of noise, so the practical value of the Thursday ritual is somewhat limited. One of my daughters, who works for the NHS, has been given a free upgrade in her motor insurance cover and had Iceland to herself when shopping after work this week. Another daughter and my son work in the kitchen of a care home. They each received a large box of basic foodstuff from their employer, this week. That sort of support is much more important than gestures, however well meaning.

All that having been said, clapping may give some support in the short term and certainly can't do any harm unless others are pressured to conform.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:37 PM

Two of our neighbours - a husband and wife - are Paramedics. If they are off-shift when we all come out for the weekly show of appreciation, they come out and applaud/rattle pans/yadda yadda, with us. They say they are very heartened by the public show of support.

Good enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:32 PM

Nope. We are simply saying that we approve of, and participate in, the weekly supporting of all those key frontline workers. We're not saying that we can get them their kit or get them paid more. We want to show our appreciation and solidarity, that's all. We are really not saying that you don't have the right to demur. Fair enough if you do. But that isn't what you did. You went a lot further. You said that our actions were vacuous, short-term and populist. You didn't have to say that, but you did. You could have respected our right to do our good-hearted supporting, whatever your view of its shallowness, but, instead, you decided to knock us. That invites biting back, and it seems that you can't take that. I haven't done a poll, but you need to reflect that you are almost certainly in a minority, and you also need to reflect that nearly all those people who turn out to applaud are good-hearted and well-meaning people who are actually thinking a lot more about the brave folk who are the ones who are truly propping up this country. Nuff said.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:18 PM

Ok my neighborhood online group is up to doing this, at 7 when the shift change happens. Weds.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:54 PM

Stay safe and well - I hope my wife and I do as well,
when it's her next turn on the rota
to be exposed unprotected to infant kid's of potentially infected essential workers...

btw... news flash...

Teacher, 35, dies 'after contracting virus'

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:41 PM

And you told us that we were being vacuous,short-term and and populist when we applauded the front-line workers. And that you don't like being preached at. Or bullied. Sheesh. I thought you were better than this, I really did.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 01:54 PM

DtG - I appreciate how much folk club folkies relish any opportunity
for a rousing happy clappy communal singalong..

fair enough.. but never my cuppa tea..


However, seen from my less than happy point of view..

"These bolshy ungrateful key worker conscripts
don't show enough respect,
for how much good we do sending them off to die on the front=line,
with our loud patriotic clapping and pot banging...!!!"...?????

Ps.. got a text from my hospital junior Dr nephew...
[a town up north]

Covid has hit his hospital, not too hard yet, and he's ok for the moment...

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 01:11 PM

To clap or not to clap is a matter of personal choice. Mrs. Backwoodsperson and I choose to clap, but I hold no negative opinions with regard to those who choose not to.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 11:48 AM

DtG - that's me in neutral gear...

I haven't come anywhere near full on overdrive piss taking ridicule..

..and have no desire to unless provoked...

Btw.. I have never had any urge to 'pressurise' any other human being
about anything...

So that notion can f@ck right off...

I'll leave that sort of thing to the habitual control freaks amongst us..

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:56 AM

"But if you choose not to do it, then stick your head above the parapet to call our actions vacuous or populist or useless,that ridicule actually seems to be pressurising US not to do it"

Nope.. I'm not ridiculing or pressurising anyone..

That's just your take on me expressing an honest justifiable dissenting opinion - a fair "imho",
considering my resentment of a foolish inept PM ordering the potential sacrifice
of my wife's and my health and lives...
When there are other more effective strategies the tory govt
should have implemented instead..

Excuse me if I might see this as far right revenge on the teaching profession, they have reviled, maligned, and mistreated for years...

Nah.. clapping and pot banging don't do it for me..

It won't be like a normal infant school teaching day.
when all she usually just brings home is coughs, colds, and head lice...

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:39 AM

"batmnan"..???

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 10:37 AM

Steve - I've just done my little bit to show appreciation and support for my wife's risky essential work,
now I don't think my lower back and neck will recover for days...

Right then.. I'm tearing that page out of Alex Comfort's old illustrated instruction book...

..and as for me describing the applause as vacuous, or or an empty gesture,
or whatever other words i care to choose
to express my opinion of peer pressure exhortations to conform to a ritual..

Look at it from the point of view of an older lower ranking officer
compulsorily pushed into the front-lines,
ie.. my mrs, accompanied by me - her batmnan..

While civilians far to the rear safely tucked up in their homes,
hand out white feathers
to chide any folks who fall out of line with populist oficial line propagandising shows of 'support'..???

We don't want applause for being pushed into the trenches..
We are pissed off being shoved into the f@ckin dangerous trenches without gas masks and helmets...!!!

We weren't even asked if we wanted to willingly choose to volunteer
as cannon fodder...

Nah, I'll call the thursday 8 o clock flag waving charade whatever I bloomimg well like...

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:54 AM

Trying to get this started here.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 06:16 AM

There is an 8 PM applause and spontaneous acts like yelling or howling.
Cites are bathed in blue light to celebraie health care workers here.

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:35 AM

Clap for Boris? I know that he's a despicable womaniser, but I wouldn't wish a dose of the clap even on him...

Subject: RE: BS: Clapping for the NHS
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:33 AM

Bit of a distinction to be made here, pfr. If you choose to refrain from the clapping, that's grand. Nobody I know is trying to pressurise or bully anyone else into doing it. But if you choose not to do it, then stick your head above the parapet to call our actions vacuous or populist or useless, that ridicule actually seems to be pressurising US not to do it. Everyone I know comes out to do it. With everyone I know, this little action has promoted discussion and heightened awareness of the sacrifices being made by those workers on the front line and the dangers they confront every day. That includes your missus, my sister (who is doing exactly same as your missus as it happens) and all those beautiful people who are looking after my mum with such love. We can't get them a pay rise or better safety kit by going out to applaud them. But we can show our deep appreciation, maybe make them feel a tad better about life, and make the stinking Tories shift uncomfortably from privileged buttock to privileged buttock as we let them know what they've done to OUR NHS and care sector. But mostly, just to show our appreciation and gratitude.