BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: GUEST,bankley
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 11:18 AM

beware of agent/provocateurs... it's a common tactic to infiltrate a group and/or plant undercover security personnel to incite the crowd, to provoke the security forces to react against otherwise peaceful demonstrators. It's worth a few stripped down cars torched to justify the billion plus expense of protecting our glorious leaders and populace from vandal hordes at the gates of 'freedom'...

The Surete du Quebec were forced to admit that they had planted officers in the crowd during the SPP conference in Montebello. They were rock carrying, hooded inciters and were 'outed' by the other protesters. The giveaway was that they wore the same police issue boots as the uniformed officers..

when the Caledonia land claim stand off was happening in Ontario... undercover officers were brought in to act like taunting rednecks in an attempt to get Mohawks to be violent, thereby providing an excuse to send in the cavalry... it didn't work....

there's a lot more to it all than we're lead to believe..

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 28 Jun 10 - 10:32 AM

Usual rent a mob no doubt! Just like UK union picket lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 10:39 PM

I have no problem with peaceful, deliberate, well-reasoned protest. As a former National Guardsman and (I hope) a rational being I have a lot of problems with people burning, looting, and hurting other people no matter which side of the bayonet the wounded is on.

If you want a revolution, fine. Go start one. Just remember the price that must be paid and the responsibility you take on. (If you shoot at me, though, I tend to shoot back. Just an old habit, I guess.)

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 09:19 PM

The question still remains unanswered why Toronto was chosen. This seems one of the most asinine moves by a government never elected by a majority and Harper must bear the brunt of the blame. I hope that he starts paying back the billion plus out of his pension! The anarchists were, no doubt, expected so the solution for all but the most stupid would be to meet where they could not go! This has to be one of the biggest boondoggles in our history!

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 03:35 PM

Not knowing exactly what all is going on in Toronto, much of what I hear in the news reminds me strongly of "The Battle in Seattle" back in 1999. Similar situations. World economic conference at which many people are not happy with the way things are being handled. In Seattle, there were some 40,000 peaceful, well organized protesters marching and demonstrating around the Convention Center and the hotels where the delegates were staying. Many labor unions participated, and they stressed the idea of keeping the protest civil and preventing them from turning into anything violent or nasty.

But—

There was a group of goons, many of whom were from out of state (one group proclaiming themselves to be "anarchists" from eastern Oregon), who were not all that interested in the issues. They wanted mayhem. And instead of concentrating their attention to the Convention Center where the meetings were being held, they roamed all over the downtown area, smashing store windows, looting, and setting fires in Dumpsters.

And, of course, the goons got all the media attention, and what the peaceful protesters were protesting about got lost in all the noise, smoke, broken glass, and pillaging.

Was it, perhaps, the whole purpose of the no more than 200-odd people wreaking mayhem to draw attention away from the issues being raised by the peaceful, well-disciplined protesters?

I sort of wonder if something similar might not be what's going on in Toronto.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 02:22 PM

Make yer own joke.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: gnu
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 02:08 PM

Ed... that would never happen in Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Ed T
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 01:32 PM

"I think we have to make a distinction between the legitimate and peaceful demonstrators and the shit disturbers, the "roving band of protesters in black balaclavas" whose sole purpose is to instigate a confrontation with the police - they're the ones busting windows and torching cop cars".

Do you mean the normally peaseful types who in mob action bust windows and torch cop cars following a win in sport games?

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 11:52 AM

These people are black anarchists, deliberately provoking violence as a way of highlighting repression and undermining the legitimacy of government. Curiously enough, the result is exactly the opposite: strengthening repression and confirming the legitimacy of government. They erode the value of peaceful protest, and support the need for 1 billion dollars in security fences and repressive laws. They assume that a cheap version of the Hegelian dialectic will eventually bring about a reversal and realization of the evil of government, and the overthrow of all states.

They are childish fantasizing parasitic stupid morons.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 11:36 PM

I support the peaceful demonstrations as a right to assemble but I question what exactly is being protested against? This whole international conference seems to me to be a folly of fools from the start and the security costs totally obscene! For this I place the most blame at Harper's feet! Rather than spend well over a billion dollars trying to secure the largest city in the country these meetings could have been held at a military base where high levels of security are already in place. International discussions in preparation for the conference have no doubt already scripted any consensus to be announced and the face to face meeting of the leaders amounts to little more than dinner and a photo opp.
All that being said the stupid thugs starting the riots will give justification to these outrageous costs!

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 10:57 PM

I'm proud to live in a country were one can bring their democratic protest to the streets.

and with that I proud to live in a country were the police are professional enough not to lose their cool with the protesters ... even while a minority of these protesters pushed their buttons to the limit ... they did not use tear gas, shoot rubber bullets and run into the protesting crowd en-mass bashing their heads with billy sticks.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 10:39 PM

I think we have to make a distinction between the legitimate and peaceful demonstrators and the shit disturbers, the "roving band of protesters in black balaclavas" whose sole purpose is to instigate a confrontation with the police - they're the ones busting windows and torching cop cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Rapparee
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 09:50 PM

Great deal of difference: for one thing, during the Vietnam ordeal the protesters in the US had a very, very personal involvement and it was called "the draft" (a/k/a Selective Service). When people come to a "protest" ready to riot (as happens now) it is no longer a "protest" or a "demonstration" but a, well, a riot.

There's nothing to be gained from being pepper-sprayed, rubber-bulleted, beanbagged, teargassed, beaten, and arrested except among your "peers" ("Wow, he was busted in Toronto, man!"). The one thing that the "establishment" is and has been ready for is direct confrontation.

Instead, insert moles and have them work their way up to the top, THEN move the change. Problem is, the moles start liking the money and the perks....

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 09:24 PM

I think you're overlooking the effect that demonstrations had on public opinion which, by most analysis, was one of the major factors in bringing an end to that conflict.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 09:12 PM

The Vietnam War ended because winning it was impossible with China and the Soviet Union supporting the North and the Viet Cong.

Comparing that conflict with vacuum-heads trying to disrupt a meeting of world leaders is nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:53 PM

Well Q, contrary to your opinion, I believe that demonstrations were instrumental in bringing an end to the Viet Nam war.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 08:43 PM

No one gets any message from the protesters.
Except for demonstrators and police, downtown Toronto was largely deserted.
The news media cover the rabble, kooks and vandals and their acts of destruction but nothing else.

The cost to Canadians is a billion dollars, storekeepers lose money and have do do repairs, and service equipment is damaged.
No benefits accrue from the demonstrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: bobad
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 07:16 PM

I don't know gnu, to me it's just a disparate group of people with various causes taking advantage of an occasion where they will have the world's media attention, politicians do it all the time too with the bill being footed by the taxpayers. I rejoice that we live in a country which respects the right of peaceful assembly and protest, notwithstanding the draconian laws passed by the McGuinty government for this summit.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:55 PM

sIx... so, "protesting" is seen as a way of spurring on our world leaders to do better? I thought that is what they were trying to do.


And, the protesters allow the opportunity for nere-do-wells to taint their message while not doing squat to change anything.

It all seems childish to me.

Vote... form political socities of mutual goals... whatever... but "protesting" at such a venue simply seems childish and insignificant to me. Providing a continuing commitment to real change far exceeds carrying a sign where it will make no difference.

In the end, it boils down to this... if the protesters were halfway intelligent, they would not be protesting. They would be organizing and getting their shit together instead of acting like children.

The problems the protesters protest did not just pop up. So why are they not organized and in great numbers? Not just in TO today! The answer is...?

Don't get me wrong. I am upset too. But this shit is inane.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:29 PM

"my hat's off to the police for staying calm and not losing it."

well ... they have remained cool so far ... let's hope it doesn't get worse.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:27 PM

"Are these protesters protesting the fact that things are not perfect yet?"

Yes they are ... in fact many things are wrong in the world today ... the G20 are trying to apply 20th solutions t0 21st century problems.

Why couldn't the G8, G20 just hold a bunch of net meetings .. would have saved a lot of us Canadian taxpayers much needed money.

With all this being said ... my hat's off to the police for staying calm and not losing it.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:24 PM

I think that Stevie should have chosen Blind River and put Shane and Don in charge of security.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: gnu
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:17 PM

What I don't get is this... why would anyone do such a thing? Even the peaceful "protesters". Why?

The G8 and the G20 are aimed at solving problems. That is the aim. Are these protesters protesting the fact that things are not perfect yet? Good luck with that.

I find it all very odd.

Especially shututting down TO and spending $1.2B.

Subject: RE: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 06:03 PM

Kooks, vandals and empty heads everywhere. Strong measures needed.

Subject: BS: Toronto G20 rioting begins!
From: 3refs
Date: 26 Jun 10 - 05:32 PM

Welcome to the rest of the world Toronto!
I hope for the best, but I fear for the worst. I think it was only a matter of time before something like this happened.
I pray there are no deaths, and little distruction.