BS: Paragraph Breaks

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: s&r
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 05:38 AM

I'm still with RichM - note his apostrophes. You can name a dialect 'standard English' but it remains one of many standards used to give clear meaning within a subset of an English speaking culture. SWE is a dialect which is accepted by many as a good communication medium in a world which reads newspapers etc. But it changes every day.

Standard English on a mobile phone is rather different but still one of many non-unique 'standard English's'.

American dialect is a non-unique standard English. So is Estuary English.

Naming something 'standard' is not establishing that the standard exists.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 10:08 PM

if one wishes to know what basic form of English is considered anywhere near 'standard', one should look to the major news broadcasts and the major newspapers. They are still attempting to maintain some semblance of coherence....although there ARE puzzling departures at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:20 PM

I googled an found this:

"Standard English

Standard English, also known as Standard Written English or SWE, is the form of English most widely accepted as being clear and proper.


Publishers, writers, educators, and others have over the years developed a consensus of what standard English consists of. It includes word choice, word order, punctuation, and spelling.


Standard English is especially helpful when writing because it maintains a fairly uniform standard of communication which can be understood by all speakers and users of English regardless of differences in dialect, pronunciation, and usage. This is why it is sometimes called Standard Written English.


There are a few minor differences between standard usage in England and the United States, but these differences do not significantly affect communication in the English language.

Please note that most dictionaries merely report on words that are used, not on their grammar or usage. Merely because a word appears in a dictionary does not mean that it is standard."

Very few people actually use standard English but it does exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: 42
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:41 PM

are we still on about this?
j

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: s&r
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:26 PM

I'm with RichM. English is described in dictionaries and such as it is currently spoken (or believed to be spoken) by a reasonably well educated person. However, i quote from the Concise Oxford 2...ussage constantly changing (so) the distinction between right and wrong is sometimes difficult to establish. English is not monitored by any single authority; established usage is the principal criterion"

Johnson described his early dictionaries as 'descriptive not prescriptive'

The language lives and changes day by day

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:39 PM

RichM - There really is standard English but you are right, in that it is not what is commonly spoken or written.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:41 AM

English by dint of it's tradition, lends itself well enough to obfuscation, it does not need to have all traditional punctuation and spelling rules ripped out.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: RichM
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:12 AM

There is really no "standard" English. If you look at English grammar, style and spelling of previous eras, you can see this.

Language is a river, not a lake. It's always moving and changing. Internet English is only the latest major influence on our beloved language.

It's not that I decry standards. But standards themselves are always in flux.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:55 AM

Acceptable on the net to whom?

Not to me

Pedant and proud of it

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:08 AM

exactly freda - Its another language. A different genre, perhaps.

Capitals and periods make it easier to read, as do line breaks but its acceptable on the net to leave out capitals or misspell a word. Abrupt sentences or phrases are more than acceptable. Think, short, sweet, and to the point.

Long, run on sentences with no line breaks are very difficult to read and will therefore not be read by many. Paragraphs may or may not exist.

Logical flow is, however, a must.

Standard English is not net language.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: freda underhill
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:31 AM

well, spilt infinitives are along there with hanging participles - they're all over the place. gerundly, i find all this talk about grammar auxiliary to the essence of a good post.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: s&r
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:43 AM

And what sort of proposition could you end a sentence with?

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:17 AM

I try to never do that - unles it add emphasis...

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: s&r
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 07:41 AM

But what do you all think about split infinitives?

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 06:06 PM

Some but not all of the "rules" provided in various style manuals apply only to typewriter-written copy and were never intended for typeset/printed manuscript. The books all date back to an age when typewritten copy was the only format in which the written word was presented to teachers/professors and to typesetters/printers.

In addition to the various ellipsis- and dash-related issues already discussed, one very important and pervasive anomaly that often arose in the typography business ~ both when converting customers' keystrokes and also when training new employees to become typesettings ~ was the convention of double-spacing after the period at the end of a sentence. A helpful convention for manuscripts produced with monospaced characters, but completely unneccesary and inappropriate in typesetting.

Of course, nowadays most common everyday "typing" is output in a typographically sophisticated format, so none of the old "typewriter" conventions are appropriate.

Going back to the simpler issues first addressed in this thread: short paragraphs are indeed preferable to huge gray blocks of text, not only easier to read, but indeed much more likely to be read at all. And lack of capitalization (all lowercase keystroking) is moderately irritating, but not nearly so offputting and illegible as ALL CAPS ALL THE TIME.

Lowercase letters have a greater variety of shapes and can be recognized and differentiated much more easily than caps. To prove this to yourself, print out a long line or two of anything in all-lowers and also in all-caps, and then cut each line in half horziontally (i.e., so that each cut piece of paper consists of all top halves of letters, or all bottom halves.). You'll be able to read the lowercase stuff easily enough, but the half-lines of all-caps will be totally incomprehensible.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Mr Red
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:13 PM

well I agree - most pithy comment is short. It is the trend in modern communications anyway - the sound byte. We will regress in years to come to grunts. full circle.

But yes - clarity of presentation, clarity of thought and maybe a little highlighting in bold italics and underline or small and a good dose of colour goes a long way. But judiciously.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

104

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 11:35 PM

Bill D -

The trick for separating those closely spaced characters is to set your cursor at one end and see how many clicks of the arrow key it takes to get across the suspect character or character group. It's sometimes easier to see if you hold down the shift key to "select" as you step across.

DaveO -

With default Autocorrect setup in many current word processors, if you type two hyphens, the program will automatically change it when you type the next character - or sometimes when you type the first space following where you dropped the dashes.

Formally, the correct typographical names for the "dashes" are "hyphen," "en dash," and "em dash." For typographic purposes, the "hyphen" is identical to the "minus" character, although a very few typefaces have separate glyphs.

The key on your keyboard should insert a hyphen "-".

In Word, if you type a space, with a hyphen following it, Autocorrect should convert the hyphen to an en dash "–" if you have Autocorrect turned on.

In Word, if you type two hyphens, with no space between the preceding character and the first dash, Autocorrect should replace them with an em dash "—".

The Chicago Manual of Style shows approximately 54 entries on proper usage of the em dash, but only about 18 citations for usage of the simpler en dash. Approximately 20 citations are shown for the hyphen, but there is a separate section with about the same number of entries under "hyphenation."

The hyphen is ASCI character 045, and can be inserted in html, as in a post here, by typing "-".
The n-dash is ASCI character 150, and can be inserted in html, as in a post here, by typing "–".
The m-dash is ASCI character 151, and can be inserted in html, as in a post here, by typing "—".

Typographers also include a "2-em dash" and a "3-em dash." The 2-em dash may be used to indicate missing letters in text, but the 3-em dash should be used to indicate missing whole words. The 3-em dash may also be used in bibliographies to indicate the same author as a preceding entry.

There isn't a "quick-key" method for typing 2-em and 3-em dashes, but since the em dash fills the glyph cell, two em dashes in a row should leave no gap, and is equivalent to the 2-em, etc.. So far as I've been able to find, even the Unicode standard doesn't give you characters for the 2-em and 3-em, so the might better be call 2 ems and 3 ems(?). But that's not how they talk about them.

For most formal manuscript work (i.e. ms. for book publishing) you usually can type one or two hyphens almost anywhere, and the galley proofers should mark each and every dash to show the layout people "what kind of dash" goes in each place. If you're lucky, they'll be better at it than you want to be. The typesetter should never have to guess.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 06:53 PM

… ... hmmmm. I see! But I had to magnify it to really make out the 'true' ellipsis. So, I guess I just use dots. Golly, you learn something every day. Now, at least, I have alt-0133 … engraved in my memory in case I want to be professional.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 05:19 PM

I'm a court reporter, and I do use the en dash, with no space either before or after (assuming, of course that it's in the midst of a sentence. If, of course, it's indicating a broken off sentence, there's no space before it, and what you might call infinite space after.

For those who don't know, the en dash is represented in typewriting as two hyphens, which is the closest you can come in that medium.

Dave Oesterreich


Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: wysiwyg
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 02:49 PM

Now does anyone want to discuss the difference between hyphen, soft hyphen, n-dash, and m-dash? One of the most exiting topics in typography, since almost nobody ever does it "right."


i COULD... BUT IT WOULD JUST CONFUSE FOLKS. sO i WON'T. :~)

Damn Capslock!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 01:35 PM

Several people have mentioned Strunk and AP style guides, and both are reasonably good. Most publishers in the US use the Chicago manual. Take your pick, but ask the prof, or your publisher, which one you are expected to use. It can make a very big difference.

Be aware that the AP style guide is specifically for newspaper usage and actually encourages a lot of things that aren't really good practice in more "formal" work.

I keep all three, Chicago, Strunk, and AP handy and use them frequently - to hold the lid down on the scanner when a piece doesn't want to lay flat.

If you type something in a modern WP program, like Word, when you type three dots "..." it should get "autoformatted" to the single ellipsis character "…" but you don't get that special thrill entering stuff here. My browser displays them so they actually look the same, but three dots is three separate characters, while the ellipsis is only one. In modern typography - or in old stuff actually typeset - it's a single character. Typing three dots is just a "typewriter simulation," or in modern WP it's an "input method." And some old typing manuals did recommend spaces between the dots.

If you really want a "real" ellipsis, the character has ANSI value 133, and you can type "…" to get one in your posts. And yes, if it comes at the end of a sentence, it should have a "period" after the three dots, "…." but that looks ridiculous in typewriter work, so style books varied when people still used typewriters.

Now does anyone want to discuss the difference between hyphen, soft hyphen, n-dash, and m-dash? One of the most exiting topics in typography, since almost nobody ever does it "right."

John

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Mar 05 - 09:01 AM

I think that some folks who write rearrange the WORDS in a random order.

I think that some folks who write, rearrange the LETTERS in a random order.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 08:40 PM

There were always two types of students back when I was in school. There were those who wanted to know, "will this be on the test?", and there were those who gnawed their way through the concepts, insatiably pursuing knowledge.

The former were really good students. The latter sometimes dropped a detail here and there but became interesting people.

I always try to remember that when I read poorly stroked posts.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Amos
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 07:30 PM

The only reason there is anty "should" about it is the rule that was made up for typewriters, not typesetters. In metal type an ellipsis is one font, and the spacing between the dots is less than an ordinary space. No reason for the rule in a WP program which can generate a proper sized ellipsis in a single keystroke … … …

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 06:34 PM

". . . keep them together on one line," that is.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Don Firth
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 06:32 PM

It's a bit of a hassle, but in most word processing programs, it's possible to put a non-break space between the dots, which will keep the together on one line.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 06:26 PM

Most of my (Mac) fonts have an ellipsis character that looks like this "…" Now I know it "should" have a space between each period, but the one-character ellipsis doesn't split when the text wraps, and the hand-made one does. Looks like this. .
. which is rather ugly.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: John Hardly
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:46 PM

All the greatest literature in the world is nothing more than letters and punctuation arranged into patterns. If one can find a good pattern, one can join the world of writers of fine literature.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:32 PM

I think that some folks who write rearrange the WORDS in a random order.

I think that some WORDS who write rearrange the order in a random folks.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Allan C.
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 05:07 PM

From a previous discussion:


Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Stilly River Sage - PM
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 02:14 PM

McGrath described exactly the most common instance of how I use the ellipsis here, to indicate I could say more, but am pausing at this point since the meaning has been made.

According to the Modern Language Association (MLA), an ellipsis should technically include spaces between the periods, thus: . . . to be clearly seen. If you use an ellipsis in a quote, it means you're dropping part of the phrase (for space and clear meaning). If you use . . . . (four dots) then the first one is the end of the previous sentence and the next three indicate that more than a few words, perhaps as much as a few sentences or paragraphs, have been dropped. They're trickier to use correctly. At some point you have to decide to simply use two quotes, rather than running two distant bits together as one.

I use the ~ to mean "about" or "approximately." I don't know where I picked it up, but it's pretty commonplace here in the U.S.

SRS





Post - Top - Forum Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
Subject: RE: BS: a new punctuation mark
From: Don Firth - PM
Date: 10 Mar 04 - 04:31 PM

Actually, there are two forms of the elipsis: three dots ( . . . ), indicating that something has been omitted within a sentence, or sometimes tying two sentences together; and four dots, indicating that the omission comes at the end of a sentence or paragraph, thus. . . .   The latter case is often used informally as a means if indicating an incomplete thought, presuming that the reader can fill in the rest.

Spacing is also regarded as important when typing a manuscript. In the three-dot ellipsis, there should be a space following the last letter of the preceding word, a space between each dot, and a space preceding the first letter of the following word. In the four-dot ellipsis, there should be no space between the last letter of the preceding word and the first dot, but a space between each dot. There should be two spaces following the fourth dot.

Or so says my style manual, which has a good section on preparing manuscripts for publication.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 04:00 PM

I think that some folks who write rearrange the WORDS in a random order.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:49 PM

Oh, and for real fun-- after you compose your post, rearrange the paragraphs in a new, random order. Hahahahhhh!!!!!!!!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: wysiwyg
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:35 PM

In practical terms, in today's times, spaces in ellipses have more to do with fonts than with style rules (I used to work in typography). Some fonts have tighter letter-spacing than others. If ellipses look too tight, they will be letter-spaced in typesetting so they are more visible as ellipses, or a word space will be used as a low-quality quick fix. If they are too loose they may be kerned tighter.

A lot of the style "rules" came to be when mechanical typing of manuscripts was the rule. Even in typesetting, in more recent years, before the advent of WYSIWYG programs (What You See Is What You Get), the "copy" (manuscript) would need to be typed by the customer, saved to disk, and the disk converted at the type shop. Whatever way the customer input the copy, that's what would come out in whatever font they had chosen.

In some cases certain character sets will be style-corrected throughout a piece that is being typeset, by a sort of search/replace function, with the kerning or letter-spacing automatically included in the replacement.

I used to proofread manuscripts converted at the type shop-- from customer inputs submitted on disk, to finished, camera-ready product. A lot of silly inputs got fixed by this search/replace method.

But nowadays we're all fonted, and it makes things a bit less rigid in actual practice.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:14 PM

The correct term for "..." is ellipsis, short for ellipsis points. The word actually has two meanings, the first being "the omission of a word or words understood in the context."

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Homeless
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:03 PM

Pauline, if you're going to correct Doug, shouldn't you have also said that his sentence should have started, "I try to use"?

Also, I seem to remember from high school that an ellipses is not just three dots, but a dot, space, dot, space, dot sequence. Can one of you with a handy-dandy reference either verify or disprove that?

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: DougR
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:32 PM

Don Firth, 02 March, 11:57 AM (I think)...Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Don Firth wrote something I agree with! Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! :>)
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:27 PM

As the foremost abuser of ellipses in these here parts, I wish I knew exactly why I do it. It is an 'attempt' to make my typing reflect the way I think......a little pause, then resume. I also use '' -- bold, italics, etc. to represent emphasis or to highlight a concept. After 8 years, it has become a real habit, although I try to make my composition clear.

Ellipes are 'supposed' to be used to show that part of a quote has been left out "... i wonder why maybe itd help...", and should only use 3 dots. I often vary the # of dots to show the length of pause...............but I don't break up sentences, I hope, in quite the way you note, Pauline.

I am trying, generally, to watch and adjust my style to better conform.........but if I stop, how will you know it's ME? *grin* (and yeah, I know several people who don't like the *grin*, preferring a ;>) or something. I don't think [s]or [BG] conveys the same feeling....but *shrug*... we all do differ, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Pauline L
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 01:04 PM

Rapaire, what is "ellipse" in writing? I know it in geometry.

Doug, you omitted a comma. It should be, "good punctuation, grammar, and formatting." I doubt that that's why so many of your posts are ignored. BTW, I'm an English teacher in my spare time, and I have edited many term papers.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:10 PM

The elipse (... and yes, my spelling may be off) is a standard punctuation. Lots o' dots (...........) is just lots of dots.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 02:34 AM

If everyone who appreciates proper writing mechanics would just ignore the posts of those who use the no-caps-no-punctuation style, maybe the perpetrators would get the point after a while.

"gee nobodys responding to any of my posts i wonder why maybe itd help if i used a period every now and then"


I try and use good punctuation, grammar and formatting, but my most of my posts still get ignored.


Doug C

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Pauline L
Date: 04 Mar 05 - 12:11 AM

While we're discussing.....styles of writing....that we....don't like,...I can't stand excessive use..... of.......dots.....old fashioned law librarians.....people who write long sentences....or speak......like that......

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: skipy
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:31 PM

Perhaps there is a market for paragraph repair kits!
I'll check ebay.
Skip




(broken.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: HuwG
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:49 AM

On a slightly related topic, this year's Golden Bull Awards from the Plain English Campaign, based in New Mills not far from me.

Most of these are not quite examples of poor paragraph layout. Usually the Golden Bull winners are talking a language which makes sense only to themselves. This is an condition shared by many, but unfortunately, it seems to be particularly common among those who represent the public face of large organisations.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:31 AM

What WILL happen is this (pick one or more):

A d00d writes a grant application. It can neither be read nor understood. A very worthy cause goes unfunded.

A supervisor can't read a safety violation report, and someone is maimed or killed as a result.

Reports on a safety defect are unreadable and incomprehesible, so a dangerous product remains on the market. The resulting lawsuits bankrupt the company.

A CEO can't understand a proposal -- the company loses money and a young person, a bright young person, loses a job.

But here's a actual, real report from "the front."

My friend Mary is director of a law library in a Midwestern law school. As part of her job she teaches legal research. One student came to her and objected to the requirement that his report be in the format universally accepted by the US courts. Other*S* have objected that they need not learn to use print sources, because "it's all on the Internet." And so forth. Mary has been patient...so far. She's only flunked one kid out of law school this year, for he didn't turn in ANY assignments; his argument was that he was "too busy."

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:20 AM

yes!

I recently copied an interesting post into an email & hit return after every sentance & read it that way cos it was a solid block of text & I couldn't focus on it.

I considered writing a PM to the author, but I couldn't work out how to say what I wanted to say without sounding critical or picky. Formatting & spacing can be done after the ideas have been put on screen so as not to interrupt the flow of ideas. bugger, I still can't get that sentance right.

Even with my new computer glasses I can't comfortably read large blocks of text & sometimes skip posts.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: GUEST,Rapaire
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:12 AM

hey d00d, try vuing it thru the lenz of today, ya no? and also u haf 2 realize that adspeak and just having a "secret langwij" is needed by every generation.

Sloppy writing, I think, indicates sloppy thinking. But that's just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: Allan C.
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 09:05 AM

My own pet peeve is the use of "and also". Pick one, please, but not both!

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: GUEST,Mingulay at work
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:22 AM

It gives a whole new meaning to calls for "longer sentences".

Kids today do talk like texts, if they can be bothered to talk at all.
I once asked someone's name to be told it was Smiff. When I enquired if that was one f or two, I was met with a stare so blank and devoid of understanding it was cold enough to freeze hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Paragraph Breaks
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 Mar 05 - 10:43 PM

Did you ever think maybe that's the way they TALK?

Hahahahhhhh........ good one!

"Paragraph Breaks, Paramedics Rush to Scene, Attempt Repair"

Film at 11.

~S~