BS: Brexit again

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 12:31 PM

"Oh I still keep the faith Jim, it's like a religion really"
You are talking arogant contradictory nonsense
How ano earth can you claim to be a socialist - openly attack the left and espouse an extremist right-wing philosophy?
How is that "keeping the faith"
You would have to be a schizophrenic to do both.
Your views are racist, Islamophobic, totally intolerant of people you describe as disease carrying sexual deviants....
Your veiws are those that filled Nazi gas-chambers - with Socialists and Communists, among others.
Being something involves your actually standing up for what you believe and not taking the opposite stance and attacking what you claim to believe.
Your "socialism" is that of The Nation Socialists - one of hatred of other races, creeds and ideals.
You swing from one reactionary statement to another - armbands for refugees, fortress Britain, all Muslims are totally untrustworthy because of theirt religion, blanket support for a Fascist like Trump, working people are not fit to control their own destiny, Anders Behring Breivik was making points worth listening to...... the list of extremist right-wing causes you have supported - on occasion, even when the right have abandoned them as too extreme (Yellow-star type armbands)
When eve you aver disagreed with Keith and Teribus - two of the most persistent extremist right-wingers on this forum.
Your hatefully persistent attacks on homosexuality -even when the world has moved on from this oppressively harmful practice, is beyond belief - almost as beyond belief as your claim to be a Socialist.
You are not even consistent or honest about your statements
You attack the left, get huffy for being accused of doing so, then do it all over again, claiming you don't have to be of the left to be a socialist (left is a defining feature of socialism - go buy a dictionary)
Your cavalier use of the term "liberal" to express a hatred for all progressive ideas and ideals, sums your somewhat unstable approach to politics absolutely - you appear to exist on a different planet from the rest os us - The Planet Strange
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 11:37 AM

Oh I still keep the faith Jim, it's like a religion really. I live more in hope than expectation these days, seen too many real socialists go to their graves.... their dreams unfulfilled.

I've stopped arguing the toss with Keith and Mr T....nowadays I'm on a learning curve and if we are going to change anything we need realists.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 11:12 AM

"The reason of course is that conservatives see the world as it is and actually believe what they espouse,"
Extraordinary
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/tories-have-forgotten-that-thatcher-wasnt-just-a-terrorist-sympathiser-but-close-friends-with-one-10507850.html
"whereas socialist, of whom I am one, "
Even more extraordinary
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:33 AM

Are some contributing to the Brexit debate or merely honing their skill set in cut and paste?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 10:10 AM

conservatives see the world as it is and actually believe what they espouse

Trump, Trumpists, and Trumpism immediatly destroy that argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: bobad
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:52 AM

It's the desperation which takes over when you realise he has you cornered and there is nothing for it but turn tail and run.
That's when the attempts to get the thread closed start.....highly entertaining.

That is sure to launch some entertaining, brightly coloured, large font sputtering.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:44 AM

"what I have been on about for all these years. "
Whoops – nearly missed this – an actual admission that you are a loutish ill-mannered bullying thus
That was a close one!
Jim Carroll

A reminder
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled.""
It will remind everyone that you are truly clueless and gormless to an astounding degree.
"Got the point now Shaw"
Probably because Carroll
Really Carroll
Keep floundering about Carroll
So all in all Christmas
For JOM:
Christmas
No need for reminders JOM I have nothing but the utmost contempt for you and everything you stand for. Not many humans wander this planet without one single redeeming feature - you seem to have managed that without even trying.
The Truth according to JOM - thick as shit and proud of it
I will repeat IT YET AGAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE TOO BLOODY THICK TO UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH (i.e. YOU RAGGY)
"complete and utter buffoon"
"That by the way THICKO "
"clueless ignoramus of truly astounding degree"
"Carroll"
"Have you found an echo JOM?"
Or have you always wandered through life making a complete and utter JOM-like CUNT of yourself?
Carroll
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 09:26 AM

I have found that conservatives are seldom wrong in debate they deal in verifiable facts whereas socialist, of whom I am one, are hardly ever right.


The reason of course is that conservatives see the world as it is and actually believe what they espouse, we on the other hand see the world as we would like it to be and only a tiny minority understand or truly believe in our stated views.

I admit to enjoying Teribus putting you all through the mincer...I know its a sin against "liberalism".......but I cant help it.

It's the desperation which takes over when you realise he has you cornered and there is nothing for it but turn tail and run.
That's when the attempts to get the thread closed start.....highly entertaining.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 08:36 AM

Good! Moving swiftly on...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 07:20 AM

No need Shaw - you make a big enough fool of yourself without the need for embellishment by anyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 07:01 AM

He was only quoting you. You are far and away the most aggressive, abrasive, arrogant and insulting poster on this forum. When you get things wrong you won't retract. These are descriptions of you, not insults. And I fully expect, within minutes, a riposte that describes me in, er, less than complimentary terms that will absolutely confirm what I've just said.


Fire away!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:50 AM

Glad you put that reminder up again Carroll (That is your name isn't it?) If those reading the thread read your posts and then read your reminder list they will fully understand what I have been on about for all these years. It will remind everyone that you are truly clueless and gormless to an astounding degree.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:45 AM

Cheers, DMcG. You saved me a bit of ink there. By the way, I don't think I used the word "qualification" with regard to MPs, implying that they've passed some sort of exam and grabbed themselves a certificate. My point is that we should expect our MPs to be a damn sight more knowledgeable when it comes to the economy and politics than the average voter by dint of their work experiences. On the whole I think they are, and whether or not they've cheated the expenses system or aspire to move onto the gravy train or get £300 per day for snoozing in the Lords has no bearing on that. Teribus is trying to wriggle out of his blunder by going on the attack instead of saying "oops!" Normal!

Saying that they're generally more knowledgeable, by the way, does not imply that they are all honest, trustworthy and not moneygrabbing, before I get accused of claiming that they're all paragons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 06:26 AM

Yes, you are right, Keith. I don't trust politicians and I didn't put that last point over very well. What I was trying to say is that maybe I am naive to believe we can trust them to do the job that they are well paid to do. I thought that is what I did say and the the last line, that you omitted, I thought clarified it completely IE Not that I trust them at all, but they seem to be the best we have... But maybe I am also naive to think that everyone will understand what I am trying to put across. I should know better by now I suppose :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:30 AM

Catching up - probably missed a bit here and there
Jim Carroll
A reminder
"every time you mention the name Woodcock I know I've got through to you and you are getting rattled.""
"Oh Shaw please don't be so coy"
"Perfectly true Shaw,"
"Got the point now Shaw"
Probably because Carroll
Really Carroll
Keep floundering about Carroll
So all in all Christmas
For JOM:
Christmas
No need for reminders JOM I have nothing but the utmost contempt for you and everything you stand for. Not many humans wander this planet without one single redeeming feature - you seem to have managed that without even trying.
The Truth according to JOM - thick as shit and proud of it
I will repeat IT YET AGAIN FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE AMONG US WHO ARE TOO BLOODY THICK TO UNDERSTAND PLAIN ENGLISH (i.e. YOU RAGGY)
"complete and utter buffoon"
"That by the way THICKO "
"clueless ignoramus of truly astounding degree"
"Carroll"
"Have you found an echo JOM?"
Or have you always wandered through life making a complete and utter JOM-like CUNT of yourself?
Carroll
"Here is a link for you Jom:"
"By the way JOM"
"how boastful a man can get doesn't it JOM?"
"Don't worry JOM"
You really should read our own posts sometime - it would help avoid the foot-in-mouths - the "Rattle of an Simple Man", as the screenplay writer described it.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 04:23 AM

Dave,

Now, I am more than happy for people to call me naive for believing these things. Maybe I am. But, if we cannot trust the politicians to make make these decisions, just who can we trust?

That is somewhat different to your previously stated view!

" I am a cynic when it comes to politicians"

"Sorry to those who feel that the politicians lied to them. That is what they do for a living. Welcome to reality."

"If any MPs thought it was legally binding then they are fools. I suspect that, like many other politicians, they are not fools but are lying. Although that is merely my opinion but born out of experience."

"Many promises were made by politicians that have now been broken. The only surprise there is that some people seem shocked by this."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 03:01 AM

got the point now?

I don't know about Steve, but I certainly haven't.   The question was whether a practicing or retired MP should have a deeper understanding of the implications of leaving the EU than a general member of the public. Whether they are paragons of virtue or slime balls is not the point. Whether they leave impoverished or with vast sums in deposits in Luxembourg is not the point. Whether the EU is a gravy train or not is not the point - it may well be a reason to vote leave but has nothing whatever to do with the question. Now I admit Steve using the word "qualification" was not ideal, but it is obvious enough what he meant and it is plain silly to obsess about the word.

What strikes me most about this thread is it is fixated on the referendum that is in the past. There is a huge amount of future stuff about Brexit, characterised by hard or soft. There is the recent by-election and what it means for future elections. There is the recent discussion between May and Merkel about the status of ex pats on both sides. Why is this ignored to prattle on about Kinnoch and Co?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Dec 16 - 02:25 AM

Steve Shaw - 02 Dec 16 - 08:20 PM

"Oh, and Lord Kinnock isn't an MP, Teribus, not for over twenty years. 😂"

Perfectly true Shaw, but that was why I referred people to him and his wife (Both of whom are Lords drawing £150 and £300 per day). Both were elected as Labour representatives Neil as an MP and wife Glenys as an MEP, Neil proved unelectable as Leader of the Labour Party and never became Prime Minister. So he was then put forward without any election process to become a - EU COMMISSIONER - the first prize when it comes to the EU Gravy Train. Having both clambered aboard this "golden lunch ticket" my, my, how their fortunes have grown. They serve as an example to all our younger professional politicians who have never held a job outside of their own party's political machinery how to become a millionaire.

Got the point now Shaw 😂😂😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:36 PM

Are you suggesting that because he is no longer an MP he is no longer more qualified? Or that UK MPs are more qualified than MEPs? Perhaps if your posts made more sense I would be better able to keep up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:58 PM

The conversation here is about whether MPs are more qualified than the general public. Teribus doesn't really agree and he gave me an example of one to illustrate -- Neil Kinnock, who hasn't been an MP since 1995. Do try to keep up. Would it make you happy if I told you that I think Kinnock is a total pillock?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Stanron
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:36 PM

Come on Steve, you must know that both Lord and Lady Kinnock worked for the EU before retiring with an estimated £10 million pension pot. There's still lots of gravy on that train. That's why so many of our politicians were, and in some cases still are, so keen for us to remain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:20 PM

Oh, and Lord Kinnock isn't an MP, Teribus, not for over twenty years. 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 07:22 PM

Well, Iains, there are far better targets for you bile than MPs when it comes to pay. Let's take the bankers, for example, who wrecked this economy a few years ago despite taking home multi-millions in bonuses which, oddly, don't seem to have dried up. The damage ran to hundreds of billions. The expenses scandal cost us a million and a bit, very wrong of course, but let's keep a bit of perspective, shall we? Many a doctor, dentist and headteacher gets paid more than an MP, not to speak of telly celebrities, company bosses and those bankers. And an MP could be out on his ear after five years, lest we forget, no notice, no redundancy, no warning. Still, that is hardly the point of the attack from you and Teribus, which questions my comment that MPs are more qualified to make major policy decisions than the millions of ordinary people.

Almost all MPs are members of political parties, each of which has its own distinctive policies. I expect my MP to understand those policies and to be able to argue for them. I also expect my MP to be fully au fait with the workings of government and the implications of government policies and strategies. When they are first elected they will be on a steep learning curve which will come on top of the political work they have done in their pre-candidate life. That's their job. Members of the public do not have any of these obligations. MPs are, therefore, far more qualified than the general public to make decisions predicated on in-depth understanding of the issues at stake. I really don't know why I have to explain this to you.

Of course, if you're one of the "all these politicians are the bleedin' same and we should get rid of the lot of 'em" brigade, all this will go straight over your head. The worrying thing in that circumstance is that you have the vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 07:08 PM

I really do think that MPs are 'more qualified'. After all, it is what they are supposed to do for a living. That are actualy paid a considerable amount of money to make these sort of decisions. They are certainly far more qualified than I am, than the bloke in the pub is and even more than the hack behind the sound bites in the stun and the daily heil.

Now, I am more than happy for people to call me naive for believing these things. Maybe I am. But, if we cannot trust the politicians to make make these decisions, just who can we trust?

Not that I trust them at all, but they seem to be the best we have...

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:01 PM

They are also the "more qualified" MP's who thought THEY should decide who was to be leader of the Labour Party!!! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Iains
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 03:35 PM

"More qualified MP's" Now that is an interesting concept.
Would you care to flesh out just what these qualifications are Mr Shaw?
Trousering amounts from the public purse would appear one qualification,
but I fail to see how this aids the electorate and I could never understand paying for cleaning moats either. Perhaps that was in order to reintroduce the ducking stool.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 02:19 PM

"There is nothing democratic about a referendum in which millions of less-qualified people are asked to decide an issue that the more-qualified MPs that are elected to represent them should be deciding"

Dying to hear what makes those Professional politicos "more-qualified"?

These like the more-qualified MPs who lied to the British public in taking us into what they knew in 1973 would become the Federalist EU?

These the more qualified MPs who would naturally wish to remain in the EU in the hope of access and self advancement in what is known to be the greatest gravy train in the world - the unaudited EU Commission. Want an example Shaw - Just take a look at Lords Kinnock.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:43 PM

Contradictory. Autocorrect again!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:40 PM

... So this is not a game changer...

I am not sure I agree, for two reasons. At first glance they may sound contractors, but they aren't.

Firstly, imagine any by-election where the campaign focuses on Brexit. If the elected person supported leave, it has no overall effect: that is happening anyway, all other things being equal. But if the elected person is for leave, it does alter the balance. So the leave side can only lose in this process. There may not be enough by-elections to affect things, but that is the direction.

The second thing is that the government does have other concerns, not just Brexit. But this is a strong indication that the Brexit argument is likely to be more potent that traditional party lines. And a UKIP candidate can probably tell a stronger leave message than any other party. So this suggests - no more than that - that UKIP will be strengthened. And equally in some areas, the most pro remain is likely to do well, be it LibDem or Green.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 01:12 PM

Well as a matter of fact I know Richmond very well and have spent many days there this year and last. Planes are a major issue there, but in this election all the main candidates were anti-runway so there was nothing to kick against. Sarah Olney is just as much against the airport expansion and bulldozing villages as the Trust Fund Kid, so your point falls flat on its face. Maybe the people of Richmond, rather than generally just wanting to have it back at the oiks, are better at spotting a racist, spoiled-brat charlatan than you are.

There is nothing democratic about a referendum in which millions of less-qualified people are asked to decide an issue that the more-qualified MPs that are elected to represent them should be deciding, a situation made far worse by a disgraceful campaign that did everything to lie and scare and nothing to inform. If that's your idea of democracy, I feel sorry for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 12:11 PM

The Richmond election was in response to the expansion of Heathrow.
The Richmond voters, like most well off metropolitans, had voted remain and the Lib Dems cleverly chose to campaign on that not Heathrow.
It turned out that the voters of Richmond were less bothered about more planes and bulldozed villages than suppressing the uppity oiks.


Few constituencies voted remain, so this is not a game changer.

The people should never have been given a say in a referendum,

Spoken like a true democrat.
How would you have stopped UKIP offering one?
If only UKIP had, the election result would have been very different.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:30 AM

Thanks for backtracking, Teribus. Forcing you to greater accuracy is quite an achievement.

Sarah Olney is going to vote against the triggering of Article 50. We need a good few more like her who can see that triggering the damn thing is a turkey voting for Christmas. The people should never have been given a say in a referendum, and the way it was conducted by both sides is abundant confirmation of that. But now that we've had one, once the terms of exit are made clear to us, we should have not the same referendum again but a second one on whether the terms are good enough to give the government tbe go-ahead to invoke Article 50.

Goldsmith, the racist Trust Fund Kid, made the by-election his protest against a runway. What the idiot should have seen was that this is a non-issue in Richmond. Neither of the other main candidates disagreed with him. So the LibDems made it instead into a brexit issue - and wiped out one of the biggest Tory majorities in the country. That has changed the agenda on brexit. It will shift even more so as long as the Supreme Court does the right thing next month. We're getting nearer to seeing democracy over the horizon.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 09:25 AM

"the daily mail is owned by a tax exile , some patriot."
And was once owned by a Hitler/Blackshirt supporter - a history to be proud of.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: DMcG
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 08:06 AM

Anyone inclined to talk about the impact of Brexit on the Richmond Park by-election? Given that voting against was a key part of her campaign it is at least plausible that she is bound by that rather than the referendum. That is not the case in general, I would say, but as she has been elected since the referendum I would say the position is genuinely different.

It makes the chances of an early election very remote, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 07:00 AM

the daily mail is owned by a tax exile , some patriot.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 06:52 AM

Steve Shaw - 02 Dec 16 - 04:59 AM

I didn't say anywhere that "you thought that..."

But you seem to be saying that I claimed it here:

"Teribus, you won't be the first person to be accused of racism by claiming that "our welfare services, housing, education and labour markets are being swamped by the current level of immigration."

The original version is perfectly true:

"Ordinary people up and down the country are apparently concerned that our welfare services, housing, education and labour markets are being swamped by the current level of immigration - that is why they voted as they did." - Teribus

Expressed in MSM reports and analysis of results by political commentators of the EU referendum to explain how traditional labour voters turned out in droves to Vote LEAVE (Sunderland IIRC over 70%).

Now then just for a change answer the question asked:

"When was the critical breakpoint for all the investment and planning to accommodate the influx of people our country has experienced since the expansion of the EU and the refugee crisis we see as a result of repression and crack downs by Governments in Eritrea, Libya, Syria? It takes time (years) to plan and build hospitals, schools, transport facilities and houses and normally those tasked with predicting and planning those things operate from models based on current situation and probable predictions. Now back in the 1980s none of those planners or Government economists had the slightest inkling at all that Anthony Charles Lynton Blair would get up one morning and introduce complete unrestricted access to the UK."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:50 AM

"British tourists forced to wear wristbands in EU Spain."
For Christ's sake Keith - we've been through all this.
The wristbands and the painted doors were recognised as being detrimental to the well-being of the refugees - racist thugs were using them to target their victims - they were removed because of this.
Even the extremist right wing press accepted the dangers - it was the Daily Mail who compared them to Jewish yellow stars.
And you crowd go on defending them
What kind of Christians are you - more to the point - what kind of human beings are you?
"Jim, I have never "blamed" immigrants they are only trying to better themselves financially. "
That id belittling them in itself - many of them are just trying to stay alive, having fled war zones we have helped to cause.
They have come to Britain in the same way Britons and Irish and Scots went to America - and why so many British people went to Europe until you clowns closed the door - to earn a living.
We owe these people - we shaped their countries to serve an Empire that no longer exist, we support the people whose terrorism they are fleeing from, politically and by selling them arms, we fill our shops with goods produced in factory death-traps for pittance wages....
And you people want to wash our hands of the mass poverty we have helped to cause by turning them away
What kind of "Christian/Human Being are you.
And still you refuse to respond to the employers hiring cheap being a major cause of low wages and unemployment
Socialist!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! my arse.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:36 AM

Wristbands?
Have you seen the sitcom Benidorm?
British tourists forced to wear wristbands in EU Spain.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:12 AM

"...against our own people." So it's us and it's them. When you're down the pub, do you start your sentences with "I'm not a racist, but..."?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 05:00 AM

Jim, I have never "blamed" immigrants they are only trying to better themselves financially.   I blame short sighted governance which introduced such an idiotic immigration policy. A policy which discriminates against our own people.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:59 AM

I didn't say anywhere that "you thought that..." Teribus. If you hadn't regarded your statement as fact you wouldn't have made it! The Tories hate the NHS and are dismantling it. Hospitals are closing, services are being cut back, there is a shortage of GPs, waiting lists are turning into a national disaster. Far from causing a crisis in the NHS, immigrants are propping it up. Next time you go into any hospital, open your eyes for once. As for housing, the house-building record of this and several previous administrations is pathetic. Immigrants are absolutely not to blame for that either. They make a great scapegoat covering up for government deficiencies of course. And we invest in transport links, of course, ignoring potholes whilst indulging in vanity projects like another runway for the southeast and a high-speed "rail link" that will make it easy for people to bomb down - guess where - to London, of course! that is already costing almost double its promised budget before a single bloody sleeper has been laid. "Blame someone else?" You go apeshit when we blame Thatcher for the things she actually did. Your latest obsession is to blame Blair for everything. Are you sure he didn't rape all our daughters and eat babies too?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:50 AM

"Why don't you address the point about the redundant workers,"
I have done - a dozen times
They are the result of ruthless employers hiring the cheapest and corrupt politicians letting them
I've even suggested a solution - a legally binding living minimum wage
Your blaming immigrants is inhumanly despicable and it's a confirmation of your 'Rightness'
No insults - just analytical argument which you refuse to respond to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:31 AM

No BWM I am not claiming that these workers were made redundant by immigrants...they were made redundant by globalisation, but they see immigrants happy to earn the minimum wage ,or less....because it is worth three or four times as much in Eastern Europe where much of it ends up. The playing field is not level, these locals could not survive on the minimum wage, most are better off on benefits with their rent paid......who can blame them being upset that their services are being overused while funding is being cut......and the money is simply not available to give these people proper retraining or ensure a decent life.

Taxing industry or "The rich" will simply exacerbate the situation under this capitalist system......that is a fact of life.

We require something more radical, but with you people masquerading as socialists, I wont hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:14 AM

To be pedantic, it's 'hordes'. But however you spell it, it's a racist slur.

The problem isn't your 'hoards of Eastern European immigrants'. If workers are made redundant, there's a legal issue in that their jobs no longer exist, and they cannot legally be replaced. If British workers are, as you seem to be claiming, being made redundant in order to employ cheap foreign labour, then employers are wholly to blame for:-

a) breaking employment law
b) undercutting existing wage/salary rates by employing cheap labour.

You really need to get your head out of the Daily Heil and the Sun, and widen your reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:12 AM

Oh Shaw please don't be so coy - Steve Shaw - 01 Dec 16 - 04:07 PM - quote the whole thing and concentrate your mind on the first bit:


"Ordinary people up and down the country are apparently concerned that our welfare services, housing, education and labour markets are being swamped by the current level of immigration - that is why they voted as they did." - Teribus

Now where in all of that have I said "THAT I THINK THAT"???

Liked your automatic hard left "socialist" mantra dictum - Never forget - It is always somebody else's fault.

"It would be more honest to address the real causes of the pressures on those elements, namely under-investment, poor planning and low morale." - Steve Shaw

Tell me Shaw when was the critical breakpoint for all the investment and planning to accommodate the influx of people our country has experienced since the expansion of the EU and the refugee crisis we see as a result of repression and crack downs by Governments in Eritrea, Libya, Syria? It takes time (years) to plan and build hospitals, schools, transport facilities and houses and normally those tasked with predicting and planning those things operate from models based on current situation and probable predictions. Now back in the 1980s none of those planners or Government economists had the slightest inkling at all that Anthony Charles Lynton Blair would get up one morning and introduce complete unrestricted access to the UK.

This paper by Professor Martin Ruhs Martin Ruhs (Associate Professor of Political Economy at the Oxford University Department for Continuing Education, a Fellow of Kellogg College) is quite interesting:

Is unrestricted immigration compatible with inclusive welfare states? The (un)sustainability of EU exceptionalism

Introduction

The economist Milton Friedman was one of the first to argue that there is a fundamental tension between what he called "free immigration to jobs" and "free immigration to welfare" (Friedman 1978). The political scientist Gary Freeman made a similar point in his widely cited article on 'Migration and the political economy of the welfare state', which concluded that "ultimately, national welfare states cannot coexist with the free movement of labor" (Freeman 1986, p.51). The implication of these arguments is that you can have large-scale labour immigration or an inclusive welfare state – but not both. However, under the 'free movement' rules of the European Union, EU workers have both the right to freely migrate and work in any EU member state and the right to full and equal access to that country's welfare state. Does the experience of the EU show that the alleged tension between large-scale labour immigration and inclusive welfare states does not exist or, if it exists, that it can be overcome? Or will the free movement of workers within the EU prove to be unsustainable? In this paper I argue and show why continuing to insist on both unrestricted migration and equal access to national welfare states for EU workers has the potential to undermine the political sustainability of 'free movement' because it does not take adequate account of important differences in the labour markets and welfare states across EU member states.

So like the precipitate introduction of the common currency the "Free Movement - both economic and welfare" seems to be another EU screw up brought about by those at the helm in the EU not thinking things through.

See Hollande is not even going to stand for re-election in France.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 04:04 AM

Why don't you address the point about the redundant workers, whom you expect to welcome hoards of Eastern European immigrants with open arms because "we" created the situation?

Instead of bombarding other members with insults.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 03:50 AM

"The issue of WRISTBANDS   and the refurbishment of Local Authority housing has been explained to you several times."
And still comes over as an act of absolute inhumanity comparable with forcing to forcing the Jews to wear yellow stars, as it wwas described even in the right wing British Press,
You continued to support the obscene practice long after the Right Wing British establishment outlawed it as being detrimental to the well-being of refugee families - making you righter than right in anybody's book.
As with other extremist right wingers on this forum, I don't give a tuppeny **** what you care to go over - you are what you are and we have nothing to say to each other - I'd probably better spend my time arguing with the B.N.P. - at least they they have a following.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Dec 16 - 03:29 AM

As well as being a ranter Jim, you are completely missing the point.

The issue of WRISTBANDS   and the refurbishment of Local Authority housing has been explained to you several times.

I don't intend to go over any of your conspiracy theories on this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 08:38 PM

"how did the redundant workers who's jobs are no longer viable help to cause this situation?"
They didn't - the dismantling of British industry by verious governments - started in earnest by Thatcher saw tto that.
Politicians destroyed British Industry while helping themselves to "expenses" from the nations purse.
Greedy bankers, with the assistance of equally greedy and incompetent politicians brought Britain to its knees through numerous crashes and recessions
Greedy employers, assisted by politicians, have taken away what little voice British workers had, done away with the right to notice by creating zero contracts and have operated a cheap labour scheme by employing as cheap as they can get
And you blame the Immigrants (while claiming to be a socialist)
Socialist my arse
You are every bit as supporter of exploitation of workers as any extremist riht wing Tebbittite
You said a little time ago that a good Goverment would be one that embraces Christian values - what values would they be?
You show not a shred of humanity toward people in trouble and wnat to stop them entering Britain ,and those who do scrape through, you are in favour of forcing them to wear armbands and live behind red-painted doors so the scummy racists can single them out - even after the British establishment had abandoned the idea.
Compassion for your fellow man? - I see only prejudice and hatred for those who don't meet your social and particularly your sexual standards.
You are an extremist, right wing mess Ake - probably the most far right individual I have ever come across, totally impervious to the suffering of others.
Christian my arse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit again
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 07:44 PM

"As human beings responding to a situation we have helped to cause - it has to be."

Now there's a novel idea......how did the redundant workers who's jobs are no longer viable help to cause this situation?
And why do I ask?.....because they are the people most aversely affected by unregulated immigration!