Concertina

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:56 AM

My take on the McCann.

Have played it for many years. V difficult to get to grips with at first. But, perseverance is all!
It's "home" key would be C major.
(Always best to start with no accidentals IMHO)
Going up the Sharp road. G (1 Sharp) D (2 Sharps) A (3 Sharps) E (4 Sharps) are pretty intuitive, well to me anyway!
The Flat route is a bit more problematic.
F (1 Flat) is Gods own key for me. and having cracked the system, is so easy. B Flat (2 flats) is about as far as I've got, and I really have to concentrate!! I think that it's the "thinking backwards problem that foxes me.

I really hope that I never have to attempt a tune in A Flat or C Sharp!

Really agree that it can't do the hyperspeed antics of the English, or the danceable bounce of the Anglo (Mind you, I do try to emulate both on occasions!) but, for the enquiring mind, the McCann and Crane Duets are the Guvnors...For deranged minds try the Jeffries Duet!!!

Whatever, all Concertinas are a joy to play, and to listen to, and unlike a Double Bass, you can get them on the bus!!

Good Luck all who wish to try.
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Eye Lander
Date: 10 Jun 06 - 06:24 AM

Andy and I are both learning the English, he by ear and me with the dots! We both had a little printed grid that sat quite nicely on the top of our concertinas (good old blu tac) that told us where the notes were until we got the feel of the instrument, and as mentioned earlier Concertina.net ia a brilliant site that's where I found the grid. I tried the Anglo and didn't really get on with it but then again I couldn't get to grips with the melodeon either perhaps that's why I have fallen for the English - but I LOVE it, can't play very well yet, but that doesn't stop me!! Andy says the 1 major advantage is that the English will play in any key.

Jillie

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Jun 06 - 08:37 PM

"In simple terms, a triangle may give you a major chord or a minor chord"

But....

Depending on what key you are playing in (and this is what I mean about the basic 'Home Keys' of the McCann!), aren't some of those 'Minor Triads' just exactly the related ones you 'need' anyway?

:-)

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Bernard
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 08:01 PM

I play piano accordion, English concertina, Anglo concertina and melodeon (amongst other things), and I would recommend the Anglo as being the better choice for Morris music, as it is far easier to play more than just the straight melody on one.

As we have a few musicians who play melodeon in our side, I tend to play either accordion or Anglo, though I do prefer the English for 'Second Morris (Badby)'.

I'd say the Anglo was as near as you're likely to get to a concertina with chord buttons, too - although the English 'chord triangle' method seems straightforward on the face of it, the reality is it can be rather complex because of the less than ideal placement of some accidentals (muso-speak for sharps and flats!).

In simple terms, a triangle may give you a major chord or a minor chord, it isn't a fixed pattern as such.

Wheatstone originally designed the English to make reading music easier - the notes on the left are one the lines, with the notes on the right in the spaces... then it got complicated!

At least with the Anglo, if you stick to the 'home' keys, holding buttons down on the same row will give you auto-chords to some extent, a bit like the bass end of a melodeon.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: EBarnacle
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 07:50 PM

You're right, CD, but the buttons are close enough so you can do thirds, fifths and triads with one finger, as long as it's a natural chord.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Crane Driver
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 04:41 PM

You may (or may not) be surprised to learn that I play the Crane duet - for song accompanyment, in a ceilidh band and, in my wonderfully mis-spent youth, for Morris dancing. I've owned Anglos, Englishes and McCann duets in my time, but sold them all again, because anything I want to play comes easier and better on the Crane.

For me, anyway.

As said above, try them all if you can, and go with what works for you.

Andrew

BTW - as far as I know, NO concertina comes with chord buttons.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,stevethesqueeze
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 11:16 AM

My what a lot of interest your question has caused!!

In my humble view as an elderly semi professional musician I think that all the three main systems are really good and useful. They each have their strengths and weaknesses. Don't be put off as you can play most things on most types. Just try them all if you can. Prices for instruments are ridiculously high and much snobbery exists in the concertina world. The cheaper italian anglo's can sound great in the hands of a good player and a fine Jeffries anglo can sound squeaky and bad when played by a poor player. Many years ago I was ashamed of a tattered old Hohner concertina I had at a workshop, it was the only thing I could afford at that time. During one of the tuition sessions I bemoaned the fact until Alistair Anderson picked it up and played it. It sounded fantastic! best wishes stevethesqueeze

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 05:08 AM

For the record the McCann fingering pattern IS the same in the left and right hands - it just feels different because you have to employ the opposite finger.

I'd probably advise against the duet for faster tunes (which may not exclude Morris, of course). Slower tunes are ok (Eastern European drinking tunes, specially), but try playing a duet in an Irish session - aaaaaaagh! Duets were designed for marching bands (or so I've been told) and church use - and they're prefect for that - but don't try to play fast or your fingers will knot and there's a nasty stretch between C# and F#, which you need a lot in D.

There is a good logic to the lay-out but it takes a long long long time to find it!

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 03:23 AM

Just because they CALL it a duet, it doesn't mean you have to play duets on it! I just do simple cluster chords with the left hand, which tend to drop out when the tune goes down left. It's all very simple, morris-ish rather than Morrisey. I just wish I could play a bit faster without losing my finger memory.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fliss
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 03:12 AM

I play Irish music on an English concertina, dont think I could get my head round a push me pull you Anglo. Its a bit more difficult to get the bounce out of an English system thats needed for the Irish music, but I try!

Ive had my Lachenal 48 key since I was 9. Its 1880s so is a venerable instrument. Ive also got an 1930s Lachenal, which sounds louder in sessions.

As everyone says its a matter of what you feel comfortable with.

good luck with your mission... keep pressing the buttons:))
fliss

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 08 Jun 06 - 12:29 AM

EBarnacle.
Are you referring to Jim Eldon by any chance..(not sure about the gum bit!!)
R

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:57 PM

Mmmm
Have been called a lot of things in my time, but "esoterically sanguine" isn't one of them. Quite like it though!!!
R

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:54 PM

If you can walk, chew gum, sing and play the fiddle simultaneously, get a duet.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:13 PM

"duets have too many buttons for my taste, though they can sound great."

It's just an English, with all the notes shuffled around...


Actually, my McCann is more logically easier to play in certain 'home keys'...


If you can pick up a mouth organ and not get confused, then the Anglo is just one split into two pieces, with bellows.

If you like the 'logicality' of the piano keyboard, then the English is more for you.


Duets are for the esoterically sanguine....

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:15 PM

ClaireBear said:

Mr. McCann labeled a whole lot of birdshot with A through G, shot that into a hexagonal piece of wood, and used the result for the fingering pattern

Yes, I did wonder. The person who tried to tell me that I'd find the Duet only 'moderately difficult' has a scatter-shot divided mind. Though this is not so acute a condition as that displayed by a a diatonichead. When I put this theory to a melodeon player he said: 'Me schizophrenic? Yes, I am. No I'm not. Who said that?'

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:33 AM

Thing about any kind of Duet, though, is that they're rare and expensive. If you're learning, you want something other people have got and which doesn't cost an arm and a leg in the 1st place.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,ClaireBear
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:20 AM

Thre are duets and duets.

I play McCann duet for morris -- not very well, possibly, but I get by. This is the "too many buttons" duet, but the right hand is simple enough to play. The left hand (to me) is not very intuitive. Umm, that's a tactful understatement; what I actually mean is that (as the man who sold it to me 25 years ago explained it), the fingering pattern seems to suggest that Mr. McCann labeled a whole lot of birdshot with A through G, shot that into a hexagonal piece of wood, and used the result for the fingering pattern.

The concept of the duet is that you're supposed to be able to play a duet between the left hand, which has the low notes, and the right which has the high. On the McCann, I've never gotten to the point where I could do that freely; I still have to memorize all my left-hand fingering patterns.

However, I've also got a Crane (Triumph) duet that I'm starting to learn. Unlike the McCann system, which is played with four fingers per hand (making it possible to play quite fast), the Crane is a three-finger system. This makes it more suitable for slower tunes than fast (but it's fast enough for morris, I think), but the great thing is that this means it has the advantage of identical fingering patterns for the left and right hands. the first time I picked up this instrument, I found I could actually play a duet between my left and right hands.

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:15 AM

To confuse matters still more in Irish sessions it seems to be the Anglo that is favoured - But played in the inimitable Irish style. Lots of session tunes in D are prety easy on the C/G box. Well, for those with clever fingers, unlike me! Never realy fancied a G/D but can see some advantages, particulaly for English Dance and for playing along with the ubiquitous D/G melodeon:-)

Cheers

DtG
Proud owner of a 30 button Lachnal C/G Anglo. Willing to part ex my old, pretty poor if truth be known, Hohner C/G for something interesting if anyone wants to take me up:-)

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: JohnB
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:11 AM

If you have a local Morris team, go and talk to their players, see what they play. Have a go at a couple of different ones if you can.
I personally (though I don't have either) find the English action more sensible. I have great problems with both cencertina's and melodians?button boxes of the anglo persuasion. I can never find the note I want.
You could always try a Piano accordian, which are just like a piano, which may be easier if you read music. That's what our main Morris Muso uses, he plays piano and could not get the hang of that Diatonic Anglo thing.
JohnB.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: IanC
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 11:03 AM

John

Pick something you'll find easy to learn. If you read music and play the guitar, then the English Concertina is probably your babe. Also, if you play piano or you like doing things in various keys, then the English Concertina is probably best. This comes from someone who is quite biased as I play and sell Anglos.

For intuitive unlearned people like me, and for morris and dance tunes, then the Anglo Concertina is good. No bother about which key to play in (just play everything in G or C ... all the other Morris musicians will be doing anyway, as they need to play together).

You need to have some idea, though, of how much you'd like to pay and how likely you are to stick with it, as it were.

Are you in the UK? and what part of the country.

PM me if you feel I could give you more individual help.

:-)
Ian Chandler
Kirby Manor Music
Ashwell, Herts. UK

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: EBarnacle
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:49 AM

"Price might be a factor for you, unfortunately they are not cheap instruments." One of the beauties of a good concertina is that you can always get your money back when [if ever] you decide to sell.

One of the advantages of the English system is that you can do natural triads and thirds with one finger. It just takes practice. As an English player, I am prejudiced. I have had my Wheatstone for more than 30 years and have bought and sold several others. None has made me as happy.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:54 AM

No, just saying that a duet can do "chunky" chords for Morris, but also has the flowing flexibility of the English for "subtler" tunes. On a MacCann, the simpler chords tend to be easy line vectors, and it's quite easy to put in an accordion style left- hand. In fact, as an occasional player, my big problem is overdoing the chords.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:45 AM

I play English so am perhaps biased but if you do decide that that is the one for you I have an excellent Lachenal 48 key English which was my starter before I bought an Edeophone. If you are interested pm me.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:38 AM

There's nothing 'compromising' about a Duet. Are you suggesting that it's not fully chromatic but more so than an Anglo? It's not that. It may be less scary to those with a diatonic phobia who'd thus run miles from an Anglo but it's still very hard (I speak from the vast experience of half an hour when a friend who'd recently taken it up tried to tell me it was only 'moderately difficult', compared to an English). Personally I find English fingering completely logical, and suitable for most dance music, though the Anglo is preferable for the more staccato southern English style and more or less essential for Cotswold Morris.

It really depends on what styles you want to play and whether you can cope with notes being in strange places (or not there at all), and how many keys you'll need to play in.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,Jim
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:25 AM

Hi,

Are you able to try different models - to see what feels comfortable ?

I chose english because I don't like the diatonic (different notes push & pull ) nature of anglos, but having chord buttons would be useful !

Price might be a factor for you, unfortunately they are not cheap instruments.

Are you able to get to a festival or dealer to try out the diferent kinds ? Or maybe a concertina group - though you may start a civil war about the merits of the anglo v english etc.

.... duets have too many buttons for my taste, though they can sound great.

How about listening to some of the really good players - see if there is a style you would like to go with & needs a particular kind of concertina.

I do know people who play both anglo & english, but not many - it does seem sensible to weigh the pros & cons before putting the time ( & money in ).

On other factor - individual concertinas can have very different sound qualities - you may one you particularly love the sound of, & nevermind the science bits.

Good luck

Jim

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Fidjit
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:20 AM

look up concertina.net they should be able to help.

There are workshops also that you could go to to get the feel for it.

Chas

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,The black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:16 AM

Have a look at concertina.net. There have been plenty of discussions on this topic on the forum there, but the best advice is try as many concertinas as possible. Nothing beats hands-on experience to determine which way to go.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST,helen
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 08:14 AM

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:52 AM

A duet isn't a compromise, it's an excellent first choice.

Subject: RE: Concertina
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:42 AM

Anglo is a common choice for Morris, English is common enough for dance music. Why not compromise and try a duet?

Paul Burke

Subject: Concertina
From: GUEST,Morrisloverjohn
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 07:33 AM

I really want to learn to play the concertina (I currently play the guitar, and can read music). However I'm very confused about which one to buy - an Anglo or an English concertina. I really want to learn to play Morris tunes and English dance music. Which would be the best option? Your help in this matter is greatly appreciated. there is alot of info on the web, but it leaves me more confused than ever.

Thanks

John