Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: open mike
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 07:32 PM

www.bordersgroupinc.com/about/contact.htm
is the home page and there is a comment
place there...so go for it. we are sending
a critisism form the house here....please do..also

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Kim C
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 03:36 PM

Where do we draw the line between censorship and canning a bad act?

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: ToulouseCruise
Date: 06 Aug 03 - 02:15 PM

I think someone should defend the poor chicken's reputation... defamation of character and all that... compared to a chicken? No.

Compared to an ass? well, I'll let you make the correlation. I'm already on the US Govt's hate list anyways, being Canadian and all...

Brian.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:58 PM

Nicole, your bit about WalMart etc. made me curious, so...take a look at this...may not be too long before porn shops start selling Christian Porn! Paragraph 6 on down...I guess the outcome will keep them from popping up in most porn stores, though.:-)

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 01:14 PM

I'm not totally convinced of the account given by the store manager, or the artist. I think some truth likely lies between the two accounts given, and that we may not have heard the last of this case yet.

As to whether or not a First Amendment action could be taken in this case, I disagree with the poster who said he was a lawyer. There have been cases involving corporate workplace environments which are perceived as being discriminatory and harrassing (ie sexual harrassment) by a worker, where management has claimed their employees have a First Amendment right to tell lewd jokes, etc.

There is also a case I heard about recently where a corporate employer tried to discipline an employee for posting political cartoons on the company bulletin board. The employee, who wasn't the only employee posting things on the company bulletin board without company permission, brought an employment action against the employer for selective prosecution based on said employee's First Amendment rights. Because the company was selectively prosecuting the employee for his political speech, and because the employer had no written policy regarding employee posting on the bulletin board, the company lost the case.

So to say that there can be no First Amendment issues involved in employment or contract law cases is absurd.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 05 Aug 03 - 12:37 PM

I think you have a problem pal because the first amendment so called limitations as you call it does not fit your agenda.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,michaelpdx
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 04:46 PM

I think NicoleC -- among others -- has articulated it pretty accurately. And, with all due respect to some other observers, I don't think that recognizing the legal limitations of what the First Amendment protects is the same as giving a rousing cheer for the Corporatization of America.

michael

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Maryrrf
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 04:23 PM

I don't think this is necessarily a "corporate America" thing. I tend to think that any pub/restaurant owner, if he didn't like the music presented or more importantly if his audience didn't like it and told him so, would probably get rid of the singer. I've been fired before because an owner thought the audience wanted something more contemporary and/or more rock/pop style (i.e. not traditional folk). There may be more to it than just the "chicken legs" comment.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 03:58 PM

Good answer Nicole C.

Right on for Corporate America!

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: NicoleC
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 03:15 PM

I believe you are incorrect, Frank. A proprieter of a privately owned establishment legally has the right to sell, display or show whatever material they choose to provided it's legal under the law. They are NOT required to sell, display or show absolutely everything that is lawful.

It's why Wal-Mart doesn't sell porn and porn shops don't sell Christian literature and country bars don't book punk acts. It's illegal for them to choose why they present, although you might make an argument for self-censorship.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Frankham
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 03:04 PM

Hi Nicole,

The proprietor may have the right to censor any objectionable material as defined as being obscene, inciteful to violence, causing mass hysteria or anything that could be construed as harmful to the public good. George's chicken legs does not qualify.

People have the right to walk out, boycott or just never go back to a performance they find objectionable. But they don't have the right to censor it unless it meets the above criteria.

Newspaper articles are a different story than live musical performances. Articles are printed or rejected at the behest of the editors. Newspapers however are sued for slander and sometimes for ommission. Also they occasionally mislead. However, the Aryan Nation does publish it's own newspaper and we have the right to toss it in the trash or ignore it.

The Aryan Nation could be construed to be inciteful, harmful to the public good and promoting violence. Itt would be appropriate to throw them out of Borders. This again is not George's chicken legs.

The school is a different proposition than the public concert or coffehouse. Here, there are strict rules that are protected ostensibly for the good of the children who can't handle all kinds of information. I, for one, hypothetically, wouldn't sing about George's chicken legs for most school assemblies. I might at a high school, depending on the liberality of the teaching staff. Possibly a private school.

(In reality,not hypothetically, I don't find the subject matter very interesting. :) And not enough weight can be given to it to provoke this arbitrary action by Borders.

It's a sad day when the (P)resident must be deified and unblemished in order to block out the criticims of his administration. Those who react (reactionaries) are probably overreacting because they know that Bush has messed up and don't want to admit it. That's really what this "chicken legs" is all about.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 02:19 PM

Okay, then.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Kaleea
Date: 04 Aug 03 - 05:04 AM

If Mr. Bush's legs are all that some poor Musician can find to joke about concerning the president, Mr. Bush is quite fortunate.
    For those of you who suffer from the delusion that you have "Freedom of Speech" merely because you are an American, I daresay I wish that I were that naive again. You have the freedom to speak of things your listeners desire to hear. If you speak otherwise, you must be prepared to pay the consequences. While it may be true that you won't be imprisoned for each infraction, there are often rather undemocratic consequences. You may have the freedom to speak your mind behind closed doors, or in the company of a handful of caring friends, but in larger numbers of persons, you must expect that there will be those who will condemn you, tell others of your obvious errs, & make your life miserable if at all possible, & above all, they will never treat you as an equal.
    If the same Musician had made a joke about legs, arms, nose or whatever of the former President immediately before bush, likely nothing would ever have been made of it by Borders.
    Borders is about big $$, and big $$ rules. Bush is for big $$, so he currently rules. Those who are not for big $$ or little bush had best learn to whom they speak for fear of BIG BROTHER WATCHING & listening, too!
    Freedom of . . .?

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 08:39 PM

Were I the woman involved and I wanted to press it, I'd go for the breach of contract. Assuming that I could find a lawyer to take the case.

It comes as a shock to most that a business can do (within legal limits) pretty much anything it wants. It can come as a greater shock to learn that an employee should have no expectation of privacy when working; again, within certain limits (like a general televising of the bathrooms).

The company bought the computers, etc. etc. etc. for the company's purposes, and though they let you use one the understanding is that your use should further the company's ends and not your own. Yes, you might be allowed to receive some personal emails, but! More, try sending out some emails using the company's servers that are critical of the company and see what happens. In fact, you might find yourself up the ol' crick if you sent out critical emails from your home account on your own time.

Same sort of thing here: Borders owned the ball, didn't like the player, and removed her from the game. It's not a free speech issue any more than my asking you to stop singing "The Bastard King of England" in MY living room when in MY opinion it would offend someone.

Were you to sing the "Horst Weisel Lieder" in a public park outside a synagogue I wouldn't stop you, but you'd be responsible for the resulting damage to yourself.

Free speech, like all freedoms, carries with it responsibilities.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,michaelpdx
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 02:09 PM

Frank raises a very fair question, to which there is – fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your viewpoint – a fairly unambiguous answer: The question is one of "government action," and the law at present is clear that merely being organized as a corporate entity under the laws of the United States – or otherwise existing "at the beneficence of the national and state governments" – doesn't make a private entity a part of the government (sorry, but I'm at home and don't have the cases handy), any more than does my paying taxes. There may a case to be made that a corporation should be treated differently from a private citizen in this regard, but, except in certain rare circumstances (e.g., the PruneYard case dealt with free speech rights in the public areas – not within the shops themselves – at a large suburban shopping mall, which had essentially taken over the traditional public-meeting-place function of the public town square), the courts haven't done so. The issue comes up quite regularly in the context of gathering signatures on electoral petitions, and the almost-uniform trend is for the court to uphold the private property owner's right to control what gets expressed on private property (surprise), except in the PruneYard-type setting. At least under the First Amendment, and most state constitutions. There may be some states – California, perhaps? – in which the rule under the state constitution is more relaxed in favor of free speech, but it's hard to see a Borders store fitting into that category. This is probably one to take to your state legislators – the Supreme Court is unlikely to agree within our collective lifetimes.

On the other hand, the singer at Borders may have some kind of breach of contract action available (about which I know next to nothing and glad to admit it)

michael

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: NicoleC
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 01:05 PM

I see your point, Frankham, but that court case would set up a precendent where one kind of free speech was protected, and another kind wasn't. You're talking about removing any editorial rights. Freedom of speech goes both ways. Freedom of speech isn't just about what one says verbally, it's about being able to express one's political (and other) thoughts safely.

If said singer can say whatever she wants about Bush's legs, doesn't the proprietor of an establishment have as much right to show THEIR freedom of speech but not having it said on their premises by someone who appears be acting in an official capacity and speaking FOR them? Freedom of speech has never meant that someone HAS to pay for your space and aid you in the effort to express yourself. The New York Times doesn't have to allow just anyone column space in the name of free speech.

I (fortunately) am not forced to listen to Aryan Nation "free speech" -- just because you're free to say it doesn't mean anyone has to listen. If your court case was passed, the Aryan Nation could then sue & argue that their freedom of speech was interfered with when they weren't allowed to give a regular speech to elementary school kids every Tueday at 2pm. After all -- if they want to say it, the school can't stop them AND has to allow them the use of the space in the name of free speech, right?

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Amos
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 12:27 PM

I'm baffled by sorefingers' tirade -- there must be a lot of evil suppression floating around so elegantly disguised as to be invisible to me in my naivete. Sad.
I wish, sorefingers et cie, that you would provide specifics when you make accusations. To do otherwise is most unhelpful.

As to Borders, I take back my decision to boycott them, in light of further evidence and clarification. Singing badly is a public burden which Borden's is not obliged to support or be identified with. One manager canning one performer for the reasons mentioned is a different story.

A

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Frankham
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 11:02 AM

'nother thing. Is this suppression of free speech corporate policy or is it confined to the store in Fredericksburg? What is the corporate policy re: songs about Bush's chicken legs? What does Borders say about this?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Kim C
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 11:00 AM

It still sounds to me, though, like it was the last straw for someone who already was on pretty thin ice.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Frankham
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 10:49 AM

I thank Micheapdx for his clarification of the legal issue. It seems reasonable that any corporation can arbitrarilly suppress whatever speech it desires. This certainly makes a case for caution when it comes to the privatization of such elements of the government such as Social Security or the Post Office.

But wait a minute. Doesn't the government have something to do with this? I give you that the ruling cited took place in 1980 but perhaps this ruling needs to be challenged again. Can it not be argued that the suppression of free speech is still the issue since Borders operates within the confines of the US Government and Virginia State and is not in itself a state or a country? If "Congress shall make no law * * * abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." could this be interpreted to include the right to sue Borders for abridging the freedom of speech since they exist at the beneficence of the national and state governments? In this way, arent they are a part of the US government and subject to it's laws? Not that the case would be won under the present political climate, wouldn't there be a valid reason for it to brought?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,GUEST, michaelpdx
Date: 03 Aug 03 - 02:03 AM

Well, the Borders manager may very well have been a censorious fascist with a corncob up his ass. Or the singer – and her jokes – may very well have been atrocious and deserving of the hook. But – and I post this in the spirit of focusing the discussion – as far as constitutional issues go (and, yes, I'm a lawyer, and litigating First Amendment issues is among the things that I've been doing for a living for a lot of years), the short answer is that this has nothing at all to do with the First Amendment. It must be remembered the First Amendment provides: "Congress shall make no law * * * abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The Fourteenth Amendment makes that applicable to the state (and local) governements. A Borders store is simply not the Congress, nor is it a state or local government; it is privately owned premises, and as a result Borders gets to pretty much control what goes on inside – within certain limits, of course, typically set by, among other things, the Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection Clause and by public accomodations laws, relating to prevention of discrimination on the basis of race, gender, age, religion, ethnicity, disability, etc., as well as public health and criminal laws. They can prohibit all singing in the store, or they can prohibit singing of everything but "Dixie." Or "Memories." It's their store. De gustibus, and all. The federal constitutional guarantees, as well as most state constitutional provisions, are directed against government impingement on the rights of free expression. Since Borders is neither a government entity nor (as a legal matter) an agent of the government, nor is it even arguably the functional equivalent of the town square (see PruneYard Shopping Center v. Robins, 447 US 74, 83 (1980)), the situation simply doesn't involve any rights protected by the First and Fourteenth Amendments. There may be an issue here, but the issue is not one of free speech, at least not in a First Amendment sense.

And for what it's worth, suggesting that W. has "chicken legs" is an insult to poultry everywhere. IMHO.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 11:29 PM

The thing that amazes me in all this is that since both the active principles in this story are on the net(and were before any of this ever happened) it is possible for us, who were once only able to hear what the news media had to say, to get the story direct from the people involved themselves--

I take your point, Sorefingers, and will be sorry to see you go, but rather than subjecting yourself to the vagraries of what are now somewhat moderated discussion threads(not a new thing, there have always been groups that where ever post is reviewed before being added to the threads) , maybe you should consider setting up a blog of your own--it looks like it is the next wave--

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 08:17 PM

Well that piece of censorship should not be a problem for the Mind Police here at the Mudcat; apparently there are some topics which are simply deleted without a word or warning. It seems as if they have one rule for a certain set of people and another for the rest of the long suffering contributers/visitors - since Muddie ceased to be a Blues site.

I have seen perfectly normal Folky threads remvoved from the regular list and shoved down to BS - which contained folksongs! - seen irrelevant twaddle about TV personalities stuck in our faces for days and endless BS from a certain UK city shoved down our throats for years at a time - about which the selfappointed thought police of Mudcat do absolutely nuttin.

So the poor lady of Virginia is not something the members or contributors of this site should be in the least bit- since it is by the same abuse that Mudcat attempts to squish those it disapproves of.

Funny thing - Muddie is losing people weekly because of the mental monsters who delete, remove, etc If you don't believe me go see how Maestronet is falling apart from the same kind of bovine waste; and if the original format was still followed the place would be hopping with interesting debates, ideas and folksongs instead of boring, depressing unoriginal twaddle ripped off of other more sucessful sites.

Talk about people in glass houses and rocks, Oh yeah!

Me, I am off back to the Rap sites where real musicians belong these days and take the piss out of dead Bob and his nazi family all the day long.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 07:40 PM

Thanks to M Ted, my wisdon and perception stands firm.

She sucked.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Amergin
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 01:28 PM

I order my books from the local independant bookshop...one I know the people...two I know they will try hard to locate what I want...three it has a better atmosphere than most book chains i have ever been in..especially in those chains that have people coming up to you every five minutes asking if you need anything...that can be annoying...four..I would rather support a little business than a big busniness...

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Kim C
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 12:51 PM

So, maybe she wasn't very good, and wasn't appealing to the shoppers.

It also sounds to me like ths store manager has a corncob up his ass or something. I don't think I'd want to play at his Borders.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 10:56 AM

The manager who appears to have been the manager who was working on the night she performed has his own blog, where he was in the habit of setting forth his views well before this happened. He has annotated one of the articles on it with his rebutal, and told his situation from his own point of view--

Martin Gibson seems to have guessed his perspective--basically, he says that she was awful and the customers walked out on her:

>....If I haven't made it clear, and I haven't, my store has been accused of 'banning' this singer from >performing at our store based on a single stupid unfunny comment that she made comparing >Bush43's legs to chicken legs. This is not the case at all. She was asked not to return to torture our >customers anymore with her non-lively banter and non-compelling music. People were standing >up and leaving her performance! The asses in the seats are the reason we have music in our cafe in >the first place! Dammit, I am a champion of Free Speech, I have the fucking First Amendment to the >right there, permanently placed to thumb my nose at the degredation of our civil liberties put >forth as national security by the aforementioned Bush43 and his evil band of merry, merry men. >The irony abounds. But aside from the fatigue-driven maniacal giggles, I'm not laughing.


He also says:

>...her contract does mention content, that said content will be appropriate to a 'general-interest' >shopping atmosphere. Ms. Rose also performed a song called "Clouded by Hormones" about a teenage >boy and his blow-up doll. Does that sound appropriate to you?]

For his whole story, check Banzai's Blog of Fantastic Terror!

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 09:50 AM

Just for discussion's sake, Beccy, assuming that the performer had her bookings cancelled due to the Bush remarks, and given reasons posted above for it being illegal, why do you think that was legal?

For those of you still following this, check back in a little while, because I am following up some information that may provide illumination--

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Beccy
Date: 02 Aug 03 - 08:27 AM

Excuse me, but I guess I don't see this as a "Bush-related" scandal. I see it more as a super-sensitive, over-worried bookstore owner type deal. Yeesh. What the owner/manager did was perfectly legal, but pretty stupid.
I cannot imagine that he got enough complaints about the comments on Bush's legs to be really concerned about his clientelle. I would imagine that he probably got more complaints 'bout the Maher song (even though THAT's reactionary, too...) As my younger sibs would say, "WhutEVER!" I just wish people would think before reacting a bit more or less depending upon the histrionics on display.

Beccy

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:54 PM

I just read the last few posts. When I agreed to play there was no mention of playing for free. It came down to they offered me a certain amount I wouldn't take it, I told them what I wanted they didn't take it so we split the difference & agreed, both times. They paid promptly by check at the end of the gigs & gave me a pretty fair discount on her books, both times. All in all it was a good experience
that I would repeat, the staff was very nice & the managers gave us free reign to set up how we saw fit & use whatever they had on hand that we wanted. The food & drink was also at no cost to us. Still I don't agree with how they handled the national Chicken Leg scandle.
Barry

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:47 PM

Nashville never had many indie bookstores, at least not by the late 70s. There was one where we used to get all our school workbooks - it closed several years ago because the owners retired. There are a couple of small new age shops that sell books, and a Catholic shop, but that's about it, for new books, anyway. We do have several used bookshops, and they don't appear to be going anywhere. Their numbers have actually increased in the last five years. There are a couple of them that have been around for as long as I can remember - Elder's on Elliston Place, and Dad's Old Books in Green Hills. Both excellent shops.

I don't know anything about Borders and the Union - is there a retail union? I worked in retail for awhile and never knew such a thing.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Frankham
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:41 PM

I think it's sufficient that Fredricksburg Borders has received it's share of criticism. I guess all Borders aren't the same. The ones here in Georgia seem to be OK but there hasn't been the "test case" of whether to sing about the (P)resident's skinny legs. I can't see it would be an issue in the Atlanta area.

Mr.Gibson, you wrote: "Your common sense approach is so refreshing compared to all the political posturing, constitution babbling, and lawyer wannabees."

In response I would like to say that this is a political issue. It has to do with the right of free speech. To defend this aspect of the Bill of Rights is not political posturing in the way I understand that description. There are those that take the right of free speech for granted. I agree however that the decision made in Fredricksburg may not have been corporate policy. But ultimately, the corporation is responsible for taking action to see that it doesn't happen again. As to the Constitution babbling, I take that document (including the Bill of Rights) very seriously as a responsible American citizen. This issue is not a minor infraction but goes to the heart of the hysteria being created today by perhaps well-meaning folks who are overreacting. This is a byproduct of the level of hysteria that has been escalated for political purposes (that's political posturing. 911 doesn't give anyone the right to trample on the right of free speech.

As to the legal wannabees, what's wrong with that? Most Americans could benefit from a good civics lesson. I know the role of lawyers is being denegrated today by militant right-wing pundits but without an advocacy system, we would not have a great government. The idea that all lawyers are base liars and immoral is a propaganda mechanism that is being fostered by some of the right-wing diehards.

Kat,
There have always been sinister times in our history. I lived through the McCarthy era and you're right, I am seeing a replay of it. I've enjoyed Bill Maher and don't like to see him censored by Ari Fleischer who is basically a Bush apparachik. I think it's appropriate the Fleischer watches what he says as well. The voters may be able to see to that.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Barry Finn
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:38 PM

I did a couple gigs at Borders Books when Captain Linda Greenlaw (see The Perfect Storm) was promoting her books, the Lobster Chronicles & the Hungry Ocean (both great books). I believe they (the store) or Linda wanted music that would go with the subject matter of the books.
There was money & there were contracts. The contracts were simple, only dealing with time, date, store & money, the allowing of selling your CD's while preforming & amount of time preforming. Nothing about staying away from any types of subjects or behavior etc. As far as I was concerned it was a cut & dry deal. At the first preformence I teamed up with Jerry Bryant, they bought some of his CD's to sell to boot. I believe there's a good bit of leeway locally given to the individual stores. That all said I think they should have told any tight assed commentators that the artist was contracted to preform & that as a store that premotes the printed word they could not turn 180% & premote the censorship of the spoken word.

You can contact them through their web site if you wish to complain (yes I did).

Barry

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Mark Ross
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:25 PM

More like the American Nightmare!

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 07:02 PM

"they site their stores in neighborhoods where highly successful independent bookstores existed for decades, and drive them out of business."

That's called Capitalism... and near as I recall, it's the American Dream...

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 06:51 PM

Just the somewhat testy sort of edge to your comments, MG--couldn't figure out if you were curt and dismissive because you objected to the things that people were saying, or were just one of those charmingly crusty sorts and I just wasn't reading you right--

Anyway, according to maryf, you sign a contract with Borders that essentially obliges you to play for free, so after you've signed the contract, in essence, you are compelled to play for free--

There has always been a cottage industry based aspiring performers "for exposure"--they are easy marks, because it is hard to get started, they've invested a lot in their craft, and they are always a little bit desperate for opportunities--very disturbing to see that it(like so many other scams) has been appropriated by large corporations--

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Amos
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 06:50 PM

Let me just go on record as saying that I also think the President of the United States has skinny legs and needs to pump some iron.

A

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Mark Ross
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 06:48 PM

Exposure? Feh! You can die of exposure in this trade. And you'd think they could afford to pay performers, which is why we need a union. Anyway, the whole thing stinks. If it looks like a duck.............


Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,Boyd
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 05:24 PM

Agreed katlaughing. I've ordered books a couple of times online. But online ordering will never replace the bookstore for me. I love the book people and the ability to browse the shelves, leaf through the books--it's the whole experience I treasure.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 05:19 PM

Lots of good used books to be had from indies online, too such as BookFinder, ABE Books, etc.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,Boyd
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 05:09 PM

I don't shop at Borders either because of their anti-union tactics, because they site their stores in neighborhoods where highly successful independent bookstores existed for decades, and drive them out of business. But if I did shop at Borders, after hearing about this, I wouldn't shop there anymore, even if my chain seemed progressive.

Once the Borders and Barnes and Nobles drive all the independent booksellers out of business, the book world will be one depressing place in the US. Independent booksellers specialize, focus on customer service (because they can't carry the inventory of the book superstores, they special order books for you and usually do it free of charge, without any money from the customer up front), and usually have truly knowledgeable book people as staff, who work for a pittance (and a generous discount!) because they love books and literature, and are eager to share their knowledge with others.

Give me an indie bookseller any day of the week. I have a Borders and Barnes and Noble both in my area, and I never shop at either store. Ever. I'm blessed to live in a good size city where there are plenty of good independent bookstores to choose from, and as an avid reader, I am always grateful for such an embarrasment of riches in this regard.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Maryrrf
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 05:01 PM

The way it works at Borders is that you do have a contract and it is given to you by the regional manager. In this case, Fredericksburg is under the same regional manager as Richmond and some other stores in Virginia. You get the "free drinks" and an opportunity to play "for exposure". I occasionally play at Borders in Richmond and enjoy it, the people who work there are nice and friendly, it's usually a nice, attentive audience that enables me to experiment with some of my quieter material, and I sell CD's and promote my other upcoming performances. As I said before, the two times I played in Fredericksburg I didn't enjoy it and I won't play there again. I was rudely treated the first time but I did play a second time because I had a contract and decided to honor it. Although Borders is a chain I guess the individual management at each store is different and the "atmosphere" is different. The one in Richmond is very pleasant and they have a very good selection of music - at least I'd say it's the best selection around here. I also enjoy browsing the the books and magazines. Having said that I'm now debating if I'll play there again. They could at least offer the store credits, like they used to.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 04:43 PM

Well, M. Ted

Why the hell would I not want something like this discussion to take place? Who cares?

No one is forcing anyone to play for free at Borders. No one has to if they don't want to. They DO play there for exposure or for the fun of it. I did. Just like an open mike night in some gin mill sells beer, performers in the Border's Cafe sells books and CDs.

I'll take Borders. At least there are no drunks. Also, the lighting's better.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:33 PM

Thanks Martin. :-)

The truth is...... we have several fine bookstores in Nashville, and rarely do ANY of them have everything I'm looking for. B&N has no books on belly dancing, and while they have a great selection of books in Spanish, they don't have anything in any other foreign language (aside from the usual language reference books). Which is strange, because Bookstar (which is owned by B&N) has a shelf of foreign language books. But neither of them have many foreign language magazines - usually Spanish, sometimes French, but little else.

Davis-Kidd (which used to be locally-owned, but got sold to a company based in Tennessee) usually has some German magazines, but no books.

All of them have crappy history sections, and fairly poor art sections.

Borders has a GREAT bargain table.

Anymore, I get most of my books online, either from Amazon, or Alibris.

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:29 PM

I am curious, Martin Gibson, why you find it necessary to insult people--it doesn't seem to me that you really want this discussion to take place--curious to why that is--

Also, in the larger sense, why is the world's largest bookstore entitled to engage musicians but not pay them? I isn't a charitable event, in fact, it is a promotional effort intended to increase revenues for the store--musicians, like other skilled tradespersons, ought to be paid--People would be outraged if they tried to get masons to lay tile for free, or glazers to put in those big glass windows for free--if they demanded electricians to rewire those annoying fluorescent fixtures for free, they would be enormous outrage--

Don't tell me that it is the exposure--how much is that exposure worth when the main opportunity is playing for them?

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:20 PM

Too bad Mark Ross.

Borders Blend is a fine coffee. They probably also have that CD you can't get anywhere else.

Don't you think spouting "corporate fascism" is a bit dated?

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 03:04 PM

My first impression of a brand new Borders here was very negative. They were new and I did try to be patient, but none of them knoew how to look up a book on the database, didn't know where the section was that said book might be shelved in, etc. I finally left after 10 minutes of fraying patience. Went down the street to Barnes & Noble had the book fetched and in hand and was out of there within 5 minutes. Borders should not have opened until they were well trained in operating!

Hi, Frank,

Bit more thread creep. You may be right about the way they meant it, but I think if you read it in context from the above linked article, it seems a bit more sinister. Sorry, I probably should have posted the whole paragraph before. Referring to the chicken legs comment:

That seems to be the comment that got Rose in trouble, though she also sang a tribute to Bill Maher, the liberal comedian and former host of ABC's Politically Incorrect who after the 9/11 attacks made comments condemned as supportive of terrorist zealotry and critical of U.S. military tactics. Maher apologized but still suffered the wrath of viewers, advertisers and, eventually, the network that killed his show.

Reacting to Maher's comments, then-White House spokesman Ari Fleischer said, "There are reminders to all Americans that they need to watch what they say, watch what they do."

kat

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Mark Ross
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:57 PM

Borders is definitely an anti-union shop! See Michael Moore's THE BIG ONE. The IWW tried to organize in Philly 10 years or so ago, and they fired the organizer. This doesn't surprise me at all, it's corporate fascism and I refuse to shop there.

In Solidarity,

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:57 PM

Kim C. said:

"Maybe the store manager already had something against this artist and was just looking for an excuse to get rid of her.

I enjoy Borders. I won't let the actions of one stupid store manager influence my decision to patronize the chain. In a chain situation, there are lots of stupid things that go on, that have nothing at all to do with corporate policy."


You have a lot of common sense. Your common sense approach is so refreshing compared to all the political posturing, constitution babbling, and lawyer wannabees.

Take Care!

Subject: RE: Borders Fires Singer for Bush Joke
From: Kim C
Date: 01 Aug 03 - 02:25 PM

Chicken legs. Big deal.

Maybe the store manager already had something against this artist and was just looking for an excuse to get rid of her.

I enjoy Borders. I won't let the actions of one stupid store manager influence my decision to patronize the chain. In a chain situation, there are lots of stupid things that go on, that have nothing at all to do with corporate policy.

I have to say, though, that while I really enjoy visiting the state of Virginia - Fredericksburg is probably my least favorite place. I went into a shop there, looked around for several minutes, and left, without anyone saying hello, goodbye, kiss my ass. And yes, the shopkeeper knew I was there, because she was sitting right by the door. There were only two establishments in Fredericksburg that didn't treat Mister and me like we had lobsters crawling out our ears - one relic shop, and one coffeehouse. (not a Starbucks, either, by the way)