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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 14 Jan 06 - 08:17 AM Carol C, please explain to me, if you can, when someone offers an opinion that is in opposition to yours, then they are accused of "not thinking things through" ('G') or they "obfuscate and lie" ('OG'). Have you given any consideration as to the possibility of someone else knowing a few facts, particulary when they have talked with people who were on scene within 24 hours of Katrina? Reading media reports that we know are "built up" (a reporting term) can be similar to the the 3 blind men offering their explanations as to what an Elephant is like. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 14 Jan 06 - 07:43 AM Well, fir one, it would have been a cabinet level position, Old Guy, which carries a lot more weight than and agency... Second, when it was demoted, it lost alot of it's budget... I don't see this as the DEM's fault but, hey, inspite of their minority status, they are not completely blameless either... The fights the DEM's took up in the establishement of the DHS were related more to labor issues and less about organization... They picked the wrong fight, perhaps, but weren't the one's who had much control of how the organizational chart would end end up looing like... But based on FEMA's track record in the 90's I think it's safe to say that it wasn't as capable when Katrina hit... Added to that, as I have pointed out, Bush and the White House were AWOL in the early going and were late to the battle... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 14 Jan 06 - 03:33 AM I apologise. I have been going too fast and putting wrong things together. However I do wonder why the fact that GWB did not want to have a DHS and then he did not want FEMA to be part of it is glossed over here. He made concessions to the opposing party in an effort to keep the peace and now it is being used against him. Could FEMA have done a better job if it was left alone? Nobody seems to want to answer questions so I will ask them one at a time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:18 PM See what I mean, O-Guy??? Play nicer with CarolC an' maybe you won't need that nurse... B.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 09:14 PM (thnx bobert) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:55 PM Old Guy... time to get new reading glasses. Either that or get your nurse to read the thread to you. The sentence as it is written in my post reads, "I never said I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts". All anyone who wants to verify that has to do is read the thread. And I have already answered most, if not all of the questions that have been put to me, and provided documentation for all of my assertions. You, on the other hand have done nothing but obfuscate and lie. You're not answering your questions because you don't know the answers. But go ahead and do some research and post your results. And then I will follow along and take them apart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:46 PM Yeah, great, O-Guy.... Now how about going back to the very first post in this thread and assemble a rebuttal... Bush was the one to give the orders and he flinched... Bush was responsible for backing up his post 9/11 rhetoric about protecting the American people and he failed... These, based on well over 200 posts without a rebuttal to be the strongest evidence that the "gate" belongs behind Katrina... Hey, when any one of the Bushites will mount a rebuttal then you can ask questions of me... Until then, yer just blowing smoke... Debating 101... Rebuttal, then assert an opposing view... UIf you can't rebutt my arguments then you have no right to change the direction of the debate... Any high school debating coach can tell ye that.... And, O-Guy, don't get too smug in dealing with CarolC... You make her mad and she'll take you to the cleaners... Maybe you won't know just what a butt whup she put on yer ol' butt but everyone else will... Better just stick to yer talking points, keep on punching but when you go declaring some kind of victory, this ol' gal gonna hurt you bad... She is easilly the best debater in Mudville... Plus she's mighty purdy which has nuthin' to do with anything... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Old Guy Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:28 PM I thought I would give CC the opportunity to present her unassailable facts fo us to marvel at first. I though an expert like CC would have the answers at hand but evidently those answers would embarras her so she declines to answer. In other words another person that won't answer questions. Furthermore when you go to those Lousianna government sites you get a 404 document not found error which means it has been deleted. Also a person that contradicts herself: "I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts." From: CarolC - PM Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise... http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:02 PM Yeah, Q, yer right.... Here we are a month after I argued the point that Bush was reponsible to driopping the ball and messing up the sytem so bad that it couldn't ptrotect the American people and I haven't seen the first real rebuttal to the "FACTS" I included in that arguement... Of sure, I've been called a lotta stuff... People have siad that I won't answer their qustions but that's not my job... This thread is about George Bush and he failed the US people and I have yet to read any Bushite here present a thought out response to my original charge which I sould think mean... ... they don't have one (period)... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:24 PM Re: your questions, Old Guy, you tell us. Are you so lazy that everyone else has to do all of your work for you? I don't have an anti-Bush bias. I have an anti stupidity bias. Let's get FEMA back the way it was prior to its absorption into the DHS. Don't let your anti-Democrat bias prevent you from supporting changes that will save lives and prevent tragedies like the aftermath of Katrina from happening in the future. And if your reference to global warming was directed at me, please show me where I have said anything at all about global warming and Hurricane Katrina. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:20 PM Lots of subjects for lots of threads but most have little to do with the subject at hand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:15 PM Here's the text of the letter from Governor Blanco to President Bush. I don't know why it is no longer available in the Louisiana government's website, but it might be because that site is not designed to handle the amount of traffic it gets as a result of keeping that page active... August 27, 2005 The President The White House Washington, D. C. Through: Regional Director FEMA Region VI 800 North Loop 288 Denton, Texas 76209 Dear Mr. President: Under the provisions of Section 501 (a) of the Robert T. Stafford Disaster Relief and Emergency Assistance Act, 42 U.S.C. �� 5121-5206 (Stafford Act), and implemented by 44 CFR � 206.35, I request that you declare an emergency for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina for the time period beginning August 26, 2005, and continuing. The affected areas are all the southeastern parishes including the New Orleans Metropolitan area and the mid state Interstate I-49 corridor and northern parishes along the I-20 corridor that are accepting the thousands of citizens evacuating from the areas expecting to be flooded as a result of Hurricane Katrina. In response to the situation I have taken appropriate action under State law and directed the execution of the State Emergency Plan on August 26, 2005 in accordance with Section 501 (a) of the Stafford Act. A State of Emergency has been issued for the State in order to support the evacuations of the coastal areas in accordance with our State Evacuation Plan and the remainder of the state to support the State Special Needs and Sheltering Plan. Pursuant to 44 CFR � 206.35, I have determined that this incident is of such severity and magnitude that effective response is beyond the capabilities of the State and affected local governments, and that supplementary Federal assistance is necessary to save lives, protect property, public health, and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a disaster. I am specifically requesting emergency protective measures, direct Federal Assistance, Individual and Household Program (IHP) assistance, Special Needs Program assistance, and debris removal. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 13 Jan 06 - 02:12 PM I have a few questions for CC: 1 How many hurricanes made landfall in the US in 2005? 2 How many in 1992? 3 How many hit after Bush and before DHS? 4 What did victims of the hurricanes that hit afer Bush and before DHS have to say about DHS? How many Pros vs how many cons? You may have to alter your anti-bush template a little if you want to put things into perspective and find the real truth. After we have exhausted ourselves arguing about that and each of us declaring victory we can move on the the Bush is responsible because of global warming argument. Here are the top 10 hurricanes in US history before Katrina: 1. GALVESTON, TEXAS 1900 2. FLORIDA 1928 3. FLORIDA KEYS 1935 4. HURRICANE AUDREY 1957 5. SOUTHEAST U.S. 1926 6. LOUISIANA 1909 7. ATLANTIC-GULF 1919 8. LOUISIANA 1915 9. GALVESTON, TEXAS 1915 10. NEW ENGLAND 1938 http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/hurricanes/interactive/hurricanes.topten/intro.html Except for 1957 they were all early 1900s Where was global warming and GWB back then? Could it be that these things run in cycles? Whittle a cyles hole in your template and things come to light like this: http://www.globalwarming.org/article.php?uid=286 "The hurricane activity of the next 20 years should resemble the period that began in the late 1920s and lasted through the 1940s. The increase is due to higher salinity content in the Atlantic Ocean, which alters its currents and increases average ocean temperatures, fueling more storms. Gray emphasizes that this is a cyclical trend and has nothing to do with global warming(CNN, April 22, 2000)... .. University of New Mexico scientist Louis Scuderi, studying tree ring data in New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, and Colorado, has identified a 72 year drought cycle in the region according to an AP article of April 29th. The last such drought occurred in the 1950s, leading Scuderi to believe that another is imminent in the 2020s." This dates back to pre-Bush before so it couldn't be biased against Bush. Now do you want to move on to the Kyoto argument? Why should the US be bound by the Kyoto protocol if China is not? What other countries have and haven't signed? Who consumes all this energy in the US anyway? Is it the people? If so why can't they consume less and solve the problem instead of beating the government over the head about their own activites? Witness Barabra Striesand, environmental Activist who travels in private jets and stretch limos ansd is so concerned about air polution and green house gasses. Where do you want to begin? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 12:30 PM Number of buses... "According to a September 5, 2003, article in the Times-Picayune, "The [Orleans Parish school] district owns 324 buses but 70 are broken down." In addition, a Louisiana Department of Transportation and Development profile of the New Orleans Regional Transit Authority (RTA), last updated May 5, notes that RTA owned 364 public buses, bringing the total of the city's public transit and school buses to fewer than 700." Public transit buses were being used to evacuate people. But as I said before, they were being used in the manner that would help the most people under the circumstances... taking them to the nearest emergency shelter. The school buses people saw in neat rows under water in pictures could very well have been the 70 buses that were broken down and not operational. http://mediamatters.org/items/200509120009 That article debunks quite a few other falsehoods that are being spread here in this thread. For instance, the stupid accusation that Blanco should have, but didn't ask for specific assistance... "According to the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) December 2004 National Response Plan (NRP), when responding to a catastrophic incident, the federal government should immediately begin emergency operations, even in the absence of a clear assessment of the situation. Because a "detailed and credible common operating picture may not be achievable for 24 to 48 hours (or longer) after the incident," the NRP's "Catastrophic Annex" states that "response activities must begin without the benefit of a detailed or complete situation and critical needs assessment."" On the subject of prepositioning assets... "In fact, a Navy ship -- the USS Bataan -- was "preposition[ed]" off the Louisiana coast ready to aid Katrina victims but was deprived of needed guidance by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), as the Chicago Tribune reported on September 4. Moreover, the Bush administration did not send a hospital ship to New Orleans from Baltimore until four days after the levees were breached. Kelly wrote that the Army Corps of Engineers had by September 10 "begun pumping water out of New Orleans." But James Lee Witt, FEMA director in the Clinton administration, said that both efforts should have happened much sooner: "[I]n the 1990s, in planning for a New Orleans nightmare scenario, the federal government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to remove water from the below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby."" National Guard... "In fact...according to Department of Defense officials, Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco and Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour had requested additional Guard personnel before the storm hit. And, as the Associated Press reported on September 3, Blanco accepted an offer for additional troops from New Mexico the day before the hurricane hit, but that help was delayed by paperwork needed from Washington." According to the NRP (http://www.dhs.gov/interweb/assetlibrary/NRPbaseplan.pdf), the local government officials did everything they were responsible for under the plan. FEMA before Bush (from the perspective of Miami Herald columnist Leonard Pitts Jr., whose house was damaged by Hurricane Andrew)... "The day after I crawled from the wreckage of my home in 1992, the Federal Emergency Management Agency was there with water. Shortly thereafter came low-interest loans and other forms of help." And after Bush... "By contrast, a woman who saw me conducting interviews in Bogalusa, La., seven days after Katrina struck marched up and demanded to know if I was, finally, the man from FEMA because her house was split in two and she and her husband and children and grandchildren were sleeping on the porch." _______________ From the Mayor of Hattiesburg, Mississippi (originally taken from an article in the CNN website, for which the link is now defunct)... "FEMA, meanwhile, has refused to release 50 trucks carrying water and ice sitting at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, Hattiesburg Mayor Johnny DuPree said. 'They're sitting down there right now because one person from FEMA won't make the call to say, "Release those trucks,"' he said. Two-thirds of the residents of the southern Mississippi city have no power, and that figure was 100 percent for three-and-a-half days, he added. He said FEMA representatives did not arrive in Hattiesburg -- 95 miles from New Orleans -- until Saturday. 'People from all over America have come in to help us," he said. "But the people who get paid to do this haven't done what I think they should have done.'" www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/04...topstories" We've already covered all of this ground many times in previous threads. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:14 AM That last should read "criminal neglect" rather than "negligence". |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:12 AM And, the flooding was confined to the low areas of NO for the first couple days, not affecting the Super Dome. Ingress and egress was not affected The Super Dome is hardly the only area that needed assistance. Most roads in New Orleans were impassible. Some were not. There is no excuse for FEMA's criminal negligence of the people in the Super Dome. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:01 AM Okay Carol, okay - call it what you want and I will go with my concept. Now that is settled, your comment of me "not thinking things through" is a puzzlement. You say you are repeating things that "I have read from people who were there." Well good for you - since I don't trust most of the sensationalized reports in the media, I only repeat what I have personally been TOLD by people 'who were there'. Best I can do. And, the flooding was confined to the low areas of NO for the first couple days, not affecting the Super Dome. Ingress and egress was not affected. Opening a road after a tornado, which I have helped with, is not that big of a deal. Tractors, trucks and cables work very well and very quickly. However, around the outskirts of NO, this was not the case. There was not the problem of "impassable roads" or the kid with the school bus would not have made it out of town. With this, you go with your opinions and what you read, I will stick with my accounts from the people who were there. Enough, okay? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:41 AM Here are some definitions for the word "blog" (much more detailed definitions than what can be found in a dictionary)... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blog "A blog is a website in which journal entries are posted on a regular basis and displayed in reverse chronological order. The term blog is a shortened form of weblog or web log." http://www.marketingterms.com/dictionary/blog/ "A frequent, chronological publication of personal thoughts and Web links." http://www.blogscanada.ca/BlogDefinition.html "So what is a weblog, anyway? Generally speaking, it's an online journal comprised of links and postings in reverse chronological order, meaning the most recent posting appears at the top of the page. As Meg Hourihan, co-founder of Pyra Labs, the blogging software company acquired by Google in February 2003, has noted, weblogs are �post-centric� -- the posting is the key unit -- rather than �page-centric,� as with more traditional websites. Weblogs typically link to other websites and blog postings, and many allow readers to comment on the original post, thereby allowing audience discussions." http://searchwebservices.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid26_gci214616,00.html "On the Internet, a blog (short for weblog) is a personal journal that is frequently updated and intended for general public consumption." The necessary requirements to make a website a "blog" are that it be, A. A journal Snopes is not a journal. B. Chronological (reverse) Snopes in not chronoligical in any way. C. Has multiple entries per page Snopes has one entry per page. And because it's not a journal, it doesn't follow a journal format. It is an informational site that has a separate page for each diffferent "urban myth" that it is either debunking or validating. Personally, I don't have a problem with blogs (Gooeyduck's bizarre accusations notwithstanding). I tend to avoid using them as my only documentation or support for an argument, but I will sometimes use them together with other sources if I think it is reasonable to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:06 AM You're not a big fan of thinking things through, are you GUEST,G? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:05 AM No, they're not assumptions. I am repeating what I read from people who were there. Especially people who were responsible for rescue and other emergency purposes. Flooding has a tendency to make roads impassible (for road type vehicles), don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:24 AM By the way Caro, your assuming how things were around NO - "roads impassable" - are just that, assumptions. The wind damage in NO was not the problem, flooding was. I think 'A' was there as I have an aquaintance who was there at the same time and he says wind damage, i.e., trees down, etc., was minimal. To the east was the wind damage, well, not damage really, he said "stuff" just disappeared. (Gulport, Bay St. Louis, etc.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 13 Jan 06 - 08:16 AM Q, I meant no such thing concerning the citizens of New Orleans. (with the possible of exception of some government official and their cronies) Now, where did I say that? Carol C, I will go with the Dictionary definition of 'blog' And, as normal, questions going unanswered and BS being introduced. No comments on the 100s of mobile homes and RVs standing empty due to the local government continuing their practice of indecisiveness?????? The same people that ignore this are the ones who are complaining because some hotels want to return to a sense of normalcy and need their rooms back for tourists. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 13 Jan 06 - 01:04 AM Bush boasted today that $85 billion has been approved for the region but only $25 billion had been spent. Beyond saying the federal government "had a great role to play," he didn't say much, certainly nothing of substance. Just who approved the $85 billion?- or has it been approved? Is he just woofin'? And just what has been approved for the Corps of Engineers to build the levees, walls and flood gates? Certainly we know of no unified plans, let alone a timetable. Wonder what the waste factor is on the money spent so far, and how much went to Halliburton and subsidiaries. If the 'billions' are there, and if the levees and flood controls were built with the 'billions' to level 5, money would start to flow from the private sector. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:29 PM Danged good idea, O-Guy.... If there's any folks in the world that understand flood plain it the Dutch... Get a few Dutch engineerrs to the charette... As fir the snipers, O-Guy... Seems the more we look at the reports the less likely it is that anyone was shooting a doctors... Yeah, I was in Missisisppi during Katrina doing some recording at a buds house and that's all he listened to was Fox Mythology Network and they repeated ther snipping story over and over lie it was the ***only*** story associated with Katrina???? No wonder, fir those who only listen to FOx, whcih is the most partisan news ( if you can call it taht) station in American that one might come out still elieving that folks were shooting at doctors... And please, CarolC has provides ample links, don't do the juvinilistic "prove it" bullsh*t on me... Heck, I'm still hjaving problems with the Philosophy 201 "prove you exist" question to be bothered with stuff that CarolC has allready taken care of here... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Old Guy Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:17 PM Go take care of your drywall Bobert. Ever try Durabond? Now I want to know about the snipers. I see that there were widespread reports of snipers and the word spread like wildfire. It caused several rescues and supply deliveries to be halted. Blaming it on one news source is not logical because they are all out there trying to out scoop the others. One doctor said he heard shots and heard the bullets hitting nearby. If I was there that would convince me and have me running for cover. Nobody can confirm anything and it has been attributed to the "Fog of War" or the equivalent of the fog of a disaster. However if federal troops are to be put on the ground they need to be authorized to defend themselves with force and make arrests if necessary snipers or not. That is not legal under Posse Comitatus unless it is requested with the proper protocall. I would not send soldiers anywhere where they cannot defend themselves legally. I have never said everybody in New Orleans is a crook but I am under the impression that the government and the police force is corrupt to a certain extent. Not as much as a third world country but certainly more that most large southern cities like Atlanta or Mobile. If I am wrong, lay it on me but it should come from sombody who really knows and not some carpetbagger that has never been to NO or experienced a hurricane. Now about the 1960's flood gates. The GAO has said they would have done more harm than good. I find that hard to believe but I guess thay know more than I do. However Blanko was in the Netherlands studying their levee and floodgate system, I suppose that if floodgates are proposed now, they will be termed an absolute necessity instead of harmful. They could hire contractors from the Netherlands and they would probably do a good job. They built the Palm Islands off of Dubai and they are working on World Island and a third Palm Island bigger than the other two put together. It is the most amazing thing I have ever seen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:57 PM Okay, her we go... 1. Seein' as that problem cannot be solved with the same consciousness that created it, Bush and his gang are outta the deal. Yes, he needs to remove his asdminstartion from the process of the plan to rebuild the Gulf Coast... (More on this later...) 2. The Army of Corps of Engineers, before the first thing is built inside the worst areas needs to rebuild the leves to withstand a Cat 5 hurricane... Not not a 4! (Actually, I have recently heard that by the time Katrina hit N.O. it was a Cat 3??? And di this musch damage???) So, rebuild the levees to withstand a Cat 5... 3. Turn the Justice Departemnt loose on the insurance industry which has taken a run-out-the-clock attitude on paying claims... Yeah, haul a couple COE's into jailand that outta get them playing nice. 4. Provide national "gap insurance" to any "home owner" who lived in their own home that covers the difference between wheat the weiel insurance companies will pay to rebuild and what it will take to rebuild. 5. BUT, and this is the all important "but", before folks start rebuilding, hold a redevelopement/redesign charette... Now, I ain't talking about a few old folks from the hood witha room full of slick talking planners... That ain't a charette, its an ambush... And it's going to take some national public serice announcements to let folks who either have relocated or can't make it back to appoint proxies to represent their interests... 6. Offer a major prize for a national competition of various engineering schools to find a way to build entire blocks on barges that can't be seen in the case of flooding where entire blockes, trees, shrubs and Rover's dog house i tha back yard can raise with flood level... (Yeah, I know this seems to contradict my #1 but, hey, it's worth a looksie just in case the Army Corps screws up... 7. Look toward public/private partnerships in ares were a complete redevelopemt might be possible. If these areas are to be rebuilt with vision there will be these pockets that weill open up and so be prepared to negotiate with the private sector for thier redevelopment... Lotta creative ways to "share" sapce. 8. Offer tax incentives (local, state and federal) for investement in the rebuilding of centers that bring back the cultureal aspects of the area. And on the fedral level, like community block grant programs to assit in amtching funds for such rebuilding. 9. Hold as a goal a mix racial mix in these ares that is no greater than 10% different than before Katrina. 10. Lastly, and this is perahps the hardest and it is the area of finacing. Given that this area is so important to the domestic oil industry, that rebuilding will be partially paid for by the oil industry. Hey, they beed folks there to work so they can throw a few peas in the pot. These two states don't have extra revenues so reality being just that, I would propose that tyhr Bush administration roll back it's tax cuts incrimentally and that a portion go toward rebuilding the Gulf Coast... Thrwo in the public/private partnerships in many areas and the bills get paid. There, that's Bobert's "Ten Point Plan" Unlike the Bushites here, I ain't afraid to throw out some ideas... Sure, I expect them to start taking shots. Fine, shoot away but not if you don't have the balls to put forth yer "10 point" plans... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:39 PM What's your point, Gooeyduck? I never said I don't ever refer to blogs in my posts. I just said that Snopes is not a blog. From Gooeyduck... She (CarolC) blames the sniper rumors on blogs, puts down blogs as being rightie, even though the uses blogs to support her argumnets, points us to a web page that mentions MSNBC and Fox but no blogs. I'm cornfused. Please show me where I have done any of these things. Yes, I agree. You are confused. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 PM Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 09 Jan 06 - 06:51 AM Here's some perspective from someone who was involved in the Hurricane Pam exercise... http://suspect-device.blogspot.com/2005/09/hurricane-pam-where-it-all-started-to.html Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!! Looks like a blog to me Suspect Device Blog The Rectal Foreign Body in the X-Ray of Louisiana Politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 06:57 PM Thank you, Q and CarolC.... I'm in the middle of a large project... Actually several and don't have much pudder time these days for Googling up stuff but with these GUEST's it's almost a full time jib searching out the facts to combat their mythogies... Ummmmmm, now I guess it was the Duck who asked what I would do now and that's a fair question and I will respond with a 10 point program in a little while... Gotta got do some sanding, apply some more mud, etc... Professor Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jan 06 - 04:22 PM Gung-ho Bush on tour and giving speeches on how wonderful things will be after Miss-NO rebuilt. He doesn't mention that Congress must vote the cash. Until they do, his campaign promises are bushwah. His talk of 'big help' coming in just sounds like Halliburton et al. will get more billions. Whether this will happen or the money bills will get drowned in congressional committee piss is not yet known. Meanwhile Guest G et al. continues to mouth the fiction that the people of New Orleans are crooks, gamblers, shooters liars and thieves. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:44 PM GUEST,G, you should read the other threads on Katrina. There were supplies turned away in Mississippi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 02:42 PM A blog is a weblog. An online diary. Snopes is not a blog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:21 PM Okay, one thing at a time is fair. I really would like to see the numbers on the buses. The aerial views of bus parking showed hundres, still sitting there but now submerged. You did give a response but not an answer. And I was not being facetious, not getting in ahead of the storm has been a point directed against the Feds. (read GWB) Someone will still have to show me where FEMA turned away supplies from, say, Mississippi. And, Walmart had stores in the storm stricken area. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:11 PM Carol C, this post of mine is probably not too important but it demonstrates my tenacity for accuracy. There are three groups of defiinitions for "blog". Allow me to quote one of the most common ones; * noun: a shared on-line journal...... I have never heard the term "debunking site". Nor is it listed as such in any Dictionary or obtainable thru a "Google" search. You can, however, locate sites that deal with "Urban Legends". It is my opinion that Hurricane Katrina and its' subsequent aftermath does fall under that catagory. Snopes has close to 7000 registered members which to equates to a sharing process. If one would contemplate this site as a separate entity, it would suggest that Snopes is not much different than this thread. Which is a collection of people, most often reading what they want to read, and using that information to try to convince others of its' authenticity |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:10 PM My second paragraph in my last post was in response to this: My question is still out there, "how many city/school buses were available for evacuation prior to Katrina hitting land." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 01:00 PM The operative phrase here is "caused by". Again, moving supplies, temporary housing, etc., PRIOR to Katrina would have only added to the amount of cleanup. I think that is a pretty fair assumption, don't you? No, I think that's quite a fallacious assumption. Moving temporary housing ahead of the storm obviously doesn't make sense. But it's a red herring to suggest that FEMA did the best job it could to get supplies in. Walmart was able to get supplies in before FEMA did. And in many instances, when people did get supplies in, FEMA turned them away. I have seen the numbers on this, but it's going to take some effort to track them down. I don't have time right now, so I'll work on that later. But from the numbers I saw, there weren't anywhere near enough school buses to make much of a difference in the numbers of people left behind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:53 AM Snopes is not a "blog", goeyduck. It's a debunking site. That's wehre people use actual documentation and quotes from live people to debunk the BS that gets spread around in blogs and email chains. And its a website devoted to debunking urban legends, which is what that garbage about people shooting at rescur workers really is... an urban legend. I'll respond to more later when I have more time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Al Date: 12 Jan 06 - 11:26 AM Times-Picayune's articles make clear that throughout much of the 1990s, officials in Louisiana couldn't come up with state money needed to match federal funds. The resignation of Rep. Bob Livingston in December 1998 didn't help. (Livingston was chairman of the House Appropriations Committee; federal funding for flood control projects was one of his pet projects.) Nor did environmental laws, such as the Migratory Bird Act of 1918. (Construction on a hurricane protection levee in St. Charles Parish was halted for months because a great egret nesting area sat in the levee's path.) "The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing." |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:30 AM My My that is constructive. Reverse the things demanded by the Democrats. Now what should be done in New Orleans? Perfesser squarebob. CC says there were a "handful of snipers" Does that make you a liar? She blames the sniper rumors on blogs, puts down blogs as being rightie, even though the uses blogs to support her argumnets, points us to a web page that mentions MSNBC and Fox but no blogs. I'm cornfused. CC also seems to be blaming the absence of flood gates on the stingy administration when local "Activists" like you and her down there sucessfully blocked building floodgates that were supposed to be built in the 60's for peanuts compared to what they will cost now. Is that true? Why is the electorate down there strongly divided? What are they divided about? Why do things keep disapearing off of the louisiana.gov website like their plans for a disaster and Blanco's supposed official request for a state of emergency while Fed government docs are still there? C'mon now, we need an ejucation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:59 AM No attack from me, bobert. Paranoia on your part? What I can ascertain is you make a bunch of statements early on, pronounce them as gospel, and then continue to ignore the ongoing comments of others. Any comments on the hundreds of buses left sitting proir to Katrina hitting land or the mobile homes sitting unoccupied while local government continues to demonstrate its' inability for decision making? Or, are some of the acusations made four months ago about the NO/LA governments' lack of performance perhaps being proven out by the ongoing indecisiveness? Hmmnn? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Bobert Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:43 AM Everything I have stated related to FEMA's inaction and snipers has been backed up my CarolC's research so go ahead and attack me if you don't like my sty7le but behind it you'll find my arguments based on facts... Is folks like the Duck who, even after being presented with evidence that the sniping didn't happen, who continue to tell the story as if it did... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,G Date: 12 Jan 06 - 08:29 AM Carol C, yes, your 12:19 post is informative and it is unfortunate you and bobert fail to realize the main thrust of it. ".....FEMA, to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the effect of alleviating hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local populatiom......." The operative phrase here is "caused by". Again, moving supplies, temporary housing, etc., PRIOR to Katrina would have only added to the amount of cleanup. I think that is a pretty fair assumption, don't you? I will give you credit, Carol C, for your research efforts unlike that other fellow who simply pooh-poohs actual facts offered by others. My question is still out there, "how many city/school buses were available for evacuation prior to Katrina hitting land." I remember seeing pictures of hundreds, after Katrina, sitting in their parking areas under water. Oh, one other thing, it was mentioned that hundreds od mobile homes, RVs, etc. are sitting empty around New Orleans because the city government can't decide where to place them. A'NIMBY" scenario I guess. Much was made of them being delivered without keys which is easily solved by a 5# hammer but no one is commenting on the thousands of displaced people living hundreds or thousands of miles away who can not return due to the lack of decision making by local government. Ah yes, the inability to make decisions within that area continue, four months after the diaster. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:43 AM Nothing constructive? See my 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM post, Gooeyduck. It's far more constructive than anything you've posted so far. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:40 AM Politics are heating up. Republicans have launched a petition to recall Governor Blanco. Recall petitions must be signed by at least one-third of the State's 2.8 million voters in 180 days in order to force an election, an outcome which is highly unlikely. The move will further polarize an already strongly divided electorate. The Baton Rouge Advocate: www.2theadvocate.com/news/2180962.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:38 AM Here's an article that debunks many of the reports of snipers shooting at rescue personnel, and most of the rest of them have yet to be substantiated... http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/12801034.htm I got the information in my previous post from seeing interviews of people who were there at the time, stranded on rooftops waiting to be rescued. They said they did not witness anyone shooting at rescue personnel, but they did see people shooting in the air in order to alert rescue personnel to their presence and their need to be rescued. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:28 AM Excuses, ctirticism, finger pointing and nothing constructive. The only specific, credible sniper debunking I can find is about an incident one bridge. The rest are general "mainstream Media lied" with no specifics. Nothing indicating Fox was the culprit. Bobert You are so unconvcining I wonder how you even convince yourself. Just a bunch of knowitalls with an agenda. Will the people at ground zero get enough signatures for recall? |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:24 AM No creditable news agency found support for the reports of widespread sniping. The Guard killed two snipers, effectively stopping the handful of snipers who tried to take advantage of the situation. Right-wing bigoted bloggers are responsible for most of the garbage reports, and irresponsible repeaters of the garbage (read Geoduck) are not worthy of consideration. News today: The NO Times-Picayune reports that The U. S. Army Corps of Engineers are going to install temporary gates to close off the canals in NO, and are importing stronger clay from the Gulf to build up the Mississippi River-Gulf Outlet Canallevees in St. Bernard Parish before the nest hurricane season. A 219 page report by the Corps of Engineers interagency Performance Evaluation Task Force outlines investigations into widespread levee failures. The federal government may be taking first steps to correct past failures. The American Society of Civil Engineers is acting as a consultant. Pumps will still be inadequate by mid-summer, but it is hoped that the flood gates will keep surge and waves out of the Canal. We can only hope that another major hurricane doesn't hit the area next hurricane season. Congress must approve the plans, however, before work can start by the Corps. The three gates could cost $105 million, peanuts compared to the $2 trillion plus wasted in the stupid efforts in Iraq. See www.nola.com, articles from the Times-Picayune, Nov. 11, 2006. The Interagency Performance Evaluation Team is conducting 'dozens' of evaluations of the failures of levees and levee walls. We can only hope that some action results from their efforts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 12 Jan 06 - 12:19 AM Getting rid of the local people and not doing anything about the incompetence at the top levels accomplishes nothing. Here is the Snopes.com debunking of many of the lies and distortions that you have allowed yourself to be duped by... http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp I'm still looking for the text of Blanco's request. But here is the president's response to Blanco's request... http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/08/20050827-1.html "The President today declared an emergency exists in the State of Louisiana and ordered Federal aid to supplement state and local response efforts in the parishes located in the path of Hurricane Katrina beginning on August 26, 2005, and continuing. The President's action authorizes the Department of Homeland Security, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), to coordinate all disaster relief efforts which have the purpose of alleviating the hardship and suffering caused by the emergency on the local population, and to provide appropriate assistance for required emergency measures, authorized under Title V of the Stafford Act, to save lives, protect property and public health and safety, or to lessen or avert the threat of a catastrophe in the parishes of Allen, Avoyelles, Beauregard, Bienville, Bossier, Caddo, Caldwell, Claiborne, Catahoula, Concordia, De Soto, East Baton Rouge, East Carroll, East Feliciana, Evangeline, Franklin, Grant, Jackson, LaSalle, Lincoln, Livingston, Madison, Morehouse, Natchitoches, Pointe Coupee, Ouachita, Rapides, Red River, Richland, Sabine, St. Helena, St. Landry, Tensas, Union, Vernon, Webster, West Carroll, West Feliciana, and Winn. Specifically, FEMA is authorized to identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency. Debris removal and emergency protective measures, including direct Federal assistance, will be provided at 75 percent Federal funding." Bush clearly states that FEMA has the job of determining what is needed, and then providing it. So if things that are needed are not provided, and since it was FEMA's responsibility to make sure that the "resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of the emergency" are provided, then responsibility for any inadequacies is the fault of FEMA. My suggestions are the same as those of local and national disaster planners all over the US. Take FEMA back out of the DHS. Make the FEMA directorship a cabinet level position, answerable only to the president. Restore the funding that the Bush administration cut from FEMA's budget. Appoint and hire people for FEMA based on qualifications, and eliminate the practice of cronyistic appointments and hiring practices. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: GUEST,Geoduck Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:23 PM Getting the incomptent people out of the local government would be a start. Now where are your solutions? If the snipers were debunked, Show me. Otherwise it is your opinion and not based on Fact, and show me where Fox is responsible. No facts, no credibility. You just like to hear your self say it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate... From: CarolC Date: 11 Jan 06 - 11:14 PM The "snipers" were actually people who were shooting guns into the air to get the attention of rescuers so the rescuers would know they were there. They were not shooting at rescue vehicles. |
