An ASBO for Morris Dancing?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:51 AM

Colin Irwin tells a story about his brief and doomed foray into morris dancing, where he once looked up in the middle of a dance and realised he wasn't waving a hankie, but a pair of his wife's knickers.

I'd like to believe it's true....

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:44 AM

Wtf is an "outsider"? Or even more importantly, what is an 'insider'?

These are technical terms for different sorts of Morris dancer. It depends on whether you wear your wife's underwear inside or outside your kit.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

"It's how it looks to outsiders."

Wtf is an "outsider"? Or even more importantly, what is an 'insider'?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 11:08 AM

or Wavers - as Diane says

Not me. My information (for the 3rd time) comes from the fittest and toppest Cotswold side, Morris Offspring and from the most representative governing body, the Morris Federation.

The point of the topic was to highlight inaccuracies in yet another BBC programme, The Write Stuff, which amid some really funny spoofy pastiche, managed to give the erroneous impression that a venue needed a licence to stage Morris (which, under current PEL legislation, it does not).

What the resulting "discussion" has revealed, however, is an even more than usual inability (or refusal) to read preceding posts resulting in (usually) wilful misunderstanding and compounded Chinese whispers.

In describing aspects of the nightmarish "f*lk scene" as ghastly, Matthew Parris certainly had a point. It's how it looks to outsiders.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:55 AM

http://www.proudfoot.tv/clientwork/Morris.mov

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM

i think he means diagonally opposite corners being held together, so the hankie doesn't drag on the ground or fly about too much....it makes a sort of bag effect.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:49 AM

Er this is your not maths teacher again

I am here to warn you that The project for the weekend after next ( you're not at a festival again are you?) will be to decide on the correct name and average length of the sticks / strikers /basher whatever they call 'em.

Dave

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:47 AM

I think that's referring to the holding of the snotters by opposing corners to make a parachute-like thingy rather than letting the whole thing dangle from just one corner.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:40 AM

"....This is why in some traditions - ie. Adderbury & Headington, where there are complex hand movements, the handkerchiefs (or Wavers - as Diane says - although I also have never heard that term!) are held on diagonal corners....."
Never seen a Hanky, or a Waver, held by anything other than the corner. Now if you hold a Hanky by the corner, it doesn't really have much choice as to being "diagonal"
In closing I would say that only "snotty" people would call "ankies", "wavers".
JohnB who uses "sticks" when he dances.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave Earl
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 10:35 AM

Er I think I may have lost the plot ( Again I here some of you cry)

Are we discussing ASBOs or the OUTside leg measurements of Morris Dancers.

If as Snuffy suggests napkins/hankies/wavers/neckers or whatever are 30 ins. square, the mathematically astute among you ( square on the hypotenuse and all that) will quickly calculate that when held on the diagonal the length will be 42.43 (to 2 places)ins.

With me so far ? Wake up that boy at the back?

This leads us to decide if
(a)the lower corner should touch the ground or just "clear" it (if so by how much?).

(b) should the upper corner touch the belt or hip bone of the dancer?

Class your task for home next weekend is to:
1 attend the next Stand (or practice night) of your local morris side

2 note there answers to a and b above as given by th dancers

3 with the aid of your calculator/pda/laptop, calculate the average leg length of the dancers

4 enter the data into an Spreadsheet ( your tutor can only view Excel spreadsheets)

5 on Monday morning combine all the data gathered by the members of you Tutor group into another spreadsheet and use that info to calculate the Average outside leg of all the Morris sides interviewed by the other members of your Tutor Group

6 On Tuesday prepare a report for submission to EFDSS and the Ring - you report is to include the spreadsheet that you prepared on Monday

Dave (No I,m not a Maths Teacher but you could tell that anyway couldn't you/)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Bemused Bystander
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:43 AM

I used to be fit but now no fitter than a couch potato :-)

(seriously - I started my working life as a Diesel Fitter 40+ yrs ago)

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:36 AM

Ach Bemused and here was me thought you were a diesel fitter

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:36 AM

This thread is pants.

US readership needs to translate . . . )

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Bemused Bystander
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:32 AM

Elastic tester in a knicker factory.
A brief note ----
Wages, 20knicker a week...sorry that was a bloomer.. should be 30 knicker a week!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM

You wear your wife's underwear at work? What's your job?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Bemused bystander
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 08:54 AM

I sometimes get home from work & take my wifes underwear off - does that count?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 08:38 AM

"I think it's just great to see grown men and women discovering their inner fairy and finding a place where they can do this without hindrance or ridicule."

They'll be getting ridicule if I'm around.

What on earth is an "inner fairy"? It all feels so contrived and twee, it makes my teeth itch. Maybe it's a bit like those chaps who come home from a hard day in the City and put on their wives' underwear - a release from tension, I grant you, but a somewhat dysfunctional one...

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Marje
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:44 AM

Tim up there, and anyone else who's still missing the point of the original post - it was not a serious point or allegation. It was a quotation from a SPOOF, a PARODY, a PASTICHE of a John Grisham thriller, as the panelists imagined he might write for the English market. It was not real. Nobody ever said that a morris dancer could or would be the subject of an ASBO, it was a flight of fancy on a panel game about writing.

And to move on the the hanky issue: wouldn't it be astonishing if ever morris side everywhere called their kit by exactly the same names? Why on earth does it matter if people in one region use slightly different terminology - the do for the weather, for types of bread, for children's games, so why not in the morris world? And Diane, if you think it loks silly to squabble about this (as indeed it does), remember it was you who started the controversy by correcting someone else's usage.

And as for fairies at festivals - bring 'em on! I prefer to stick to more conventional festival clothing myself, namely a casual, verging-on-hippie style, but I think it's just great to see grown men and women discovering their inner fairy and finding a place where they can do this without hindrance or ridicule. So what if they do wear suits all the rest of the year, is that any better?

Mind you, I do live near Totnes, where you could probably walk down the high street wearing wings and a tiara without attracting a backward glance.

Marje

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:23 AM

Where is Keith Chandler when you really need him?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Whippett
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:15 AM

surely it should be a FASBO

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST,Jim Martin
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 07:01 AM

Is it 'wavers' or 'waivers'?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:38 AM

I personally don't call them anything. I'm not in a side these days so don't have to. But having consulted the super-side, Morris Offspring, and the Morris Federation which is an authorititive governing body, I'd be inclined to accept their word as accurate rather than a disparate gaggle of ex-prancers.

Suit yourselves, disintegrate into squabbling chaos and squeal in an impotent tantrum while the media takes the piss out of how ridiculous you look in the eyes of the outside world.

.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM

No, No. Diane is right. At the Seventh Conference of the International Folk Music Council Held at Sao Paulo, Brazil in 1954, Enid Abayes presented a paper entitled Definition of Morris Dancing in which they were clearly defined as wavers.

Morris sides all over the Cotswolds were enormously grateful. They'd been wondering what to call them for hundreds of years.

One or two villages that refused to comply were told that what they were doing was clearly not Morris Dancing.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: pavane
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:06 AM

No, I have never heard of 'wavers' either.
There are 'linked handkerchief' dances, but I never heard of a 'linked wavers' dance...

(And I should be careful when referring to 'knockers' in the company of the Morris Fed, too.)

And hey. I still remember meeting a member of Jubilee MM on Newport Station, Wales in the 1980's...
Nice to hear of them again

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Megan L
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:03 AM

Oh Snuffy that was awful LOL

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 04:02 AM

Morris has got a legal exemption from licensing requirements, but they have to show their "waivers" when they dance.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:26 AM

When you think about it though it mut be right - If dancing such as barn dance, square dance, ceilidh or whatever you like to call it is social dance then all else must, dy default, be anti-social dance. Ergo Morris Dancing IS Anti-Social Behaviour. To get an order usualy means to have to do it, so an ASBO is therefore an order to perform Morris Dance! Bloody hell! That'll get the yobs off the streets...

:D

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 03:19 AM

The very excellent Morris Offspring which is made up of young dancers from the top Cotswold sides say "wavers".
The most representative overall governing body, the Federation, says they're "wavers".
I think that's point proved.
Have you any idea how ridiculous you'll look to knockers and outsiders if you descend into a squabble about what to call your kit?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: mouldy
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 02:19 AM

Years ago, Jubilee Morris Men danced at Jan Smuts airport before welcoming Coventry MM for a visit, and got moved on by the police for "Riotous Assembly" which was defined as a gathering of more than 4 people, if I remember right.
It happened just before we arrived there in the early 80s. All I know was you couldn't dance in the street without strict permissions, and most of the dance outs were private paid bookings.

And I've never heard 'em called wavers before either, even during 30 years of marriage to a cotswold dancer, who danced with 5 different sides, plus Whitby Scratch. I dance NW Morris, and I've never come across that term in that tradition, either, and there are all sorts of names for things held!

Andrea

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 04:29 PM

Been dancing cotswold morris for over 40 years and never heard them called wavers. This is the first time I have heard the stupid word.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: LesB
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 01:13 PM

Diane there is an enquiry form on their website The Morris Ring & the good news (for me that is), is that the squire elect is a sword dancer.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:38 PM

Nah, the Ring wouldn't have replied to my email.
What am I talking about?
They haven't even got email . . .

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Lester
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:27 PM

Diane you should really as the Morris Ring for the definitive answer as the Fed lets wimin dance and is therefore wrong how ever you look at it.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 12:15 PM

I am interested to know who in the Morris Fed. says - "Wavers"?
And it is as if over 40 years experience in Morris (mine) counts for nothing because I have not heard the term before!

I have to say - I don't really care. You can call them what you want; it won't stop me calling them what I want! And I think that is the way Morris Dancing should be viewed.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Cassy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:54 AM

I'll check out the book

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:39 AM

From the Morris Federation:

"Common usage is wavers, same as 'sticking' instead of 'bashing'."
So there.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:38 AM

But it should be three - one for show, one for blow and one in the wash.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

Why would anyone have two neckerchiefs? You only have one neck! And before you ask why have two hankerchiefs - one for each nostril!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:25 AM

Back on-thread: I don't think it's fair to class Morris as anti-social behaviour, any more than any other form of dancing. Mind you, it seems to have the strange power to inspire an anti-social reaction in some English people....
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Harmonium Hero
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 11:06 AM

Re: the Great Handkerchief Debate.... I've also heard them referred to as 'snotters'. Charming. We at Abram call them hankerchiefs, which si what ours are.
John Kelly.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:43 AM

Also - By the way - going back to what this posting was all about to begin with!!
I think it rather stupid that Morris in this day and age should be called an ASBO!
Unless - as someone suggested - they were doing something really stupid themselves!
And who knows with those Isle of Wighters!! (My Grandmother was born there!)

Also, as it has been said - Morris has been taken out of the Law relating to performance in public, but I have to say after being for years a supporter of The Labour Party - I think it amazing that such a law could have been en-acted by them?
It "Almost" makes me glad that I now live in the USA, where you have to get a permit for EVERYTHING! - The Land of The Free?

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:38 AM

Neither Handkerchiefs nor Neckerchiefs do we have, but "Napkins" is their name. As RTim says, about 30 inches square, and nearly touching the ground when at rest.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:13 AM

Diane Easby

She also told me not to attach beards to any of the dancers

It depends where you attach them.

Clown: Now Jove, in his next commodity of hair, send thee a beard!
Viola: By my troth, I'll tell thee, I am almost sick for one, though I would not have it grow on my chin.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:45 AM

No beards! There you go then - did she also say to make them slim?

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:29 AM

A Morris Offspring person told me to call them wavers. She also told me not to attach beards to any of the dancers in the animation I was making. I've sent off an official enquiry to the Fed for clarification.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:23 AM

RTim

A Cotswold dancer, when standing with arms at side and handkerchiefs in hands - the tip of the handkercheif should be nearly touching the ground.

Mine did. I've got short legs.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: RTim
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 09:06 AM

Technically - Cotswold Morris Dancers did not use - Handkerchiefs - but Neckerchiefs, and they were much larger than the modern handkerchief. They should be at least 30 inches square.
A Cotswold dancer, when standing with arms at side and handkerchiefs in hands - the tip of the handkercheif should be nearly touching the ground.
This is why in some traditions - ie. Adderbury & Headington, where there are complex hand movements, the handkerchiefs (or Wavers - as Diane says - although I also have never heard that term!) are held on diagonal corners.

Tim Radford
ex-Squire & Foreman of The Adderbury Morris & Kirtlington Morris.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:48 AM

Ah - you'll be referring to the Barbies. My favourites were Joe Rusby as Thai Ladyboy Barbie, and Saul Rose as 70s Barbie (shudder).

It may have been ugly, but at least they knew it!

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: TheSnail
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:33 AM

Ruth Archer

Here's a little tip: few sights are more grotesque than that of a 40+ woman in a fairy costume and face paint.

You can't go to Towersey then. It's the 40+ men in a fairy costume and face paint that you need to worry about there.

Subject: RE: An ASBO for Morris Dancing?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 08:28 AM

Re the swirly trousers et al: it's the fairies I can't cope with. Here's a little tip: few sights are more grotesque than that of a 40+ woman in a fairy costume and face paint. In fact, fairy dresses for the over-12s should warrant an ASBO. Just don't go there.

Happily, most proper folk festivals are largely free of this phenomenon these days. But if the footage of Cambridge on yesterday's Seth Lakeman programme was anything to go by, The Folk Festival For People Who Don't Like Folk Music still attracts geriatric fairies by the score. Maybe seeing themselves on telly will be the wake-up call they needed.