When NOT to sing

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 02:49 PM

"You come across as superior, patronising, grumpy and irrascible by turns,"
Thank you Don - you've convinced me I have no place in here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:59 PM

It isn't nice to suggest that some of us who have been performing for more years than we care to remember, that we have absolutely no idea what we're doing, and that I do resent. I'm beginning to think that Rifleman may not be too far off the mark.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:51 PM

""If this comes across in the way you describe - I cannot see that I can possibly have anything to offer to this forum - so perhaps I should leave you all to it
Jim Carroll""


There is absolutely no need to react in that fashion, Jim, especially as, had those whom you have addressed in the way I described reacted similarly, there would now be no forum for you to post to.

All that is needed, is perhaps to consider the feelings you would experience, had you spent your whole life trying to do the best for something you believe in, only to have someone categorise your efforts as hopelessly inefficient, and detrimental to what you have been trying to protect.

You come across as superior, patronising, grumpy and irrascible by turns, though this may not be how you intend to sound.

Many of us have been involved in folk clubs for longer than we care to remember, and it isn't nice to have someone telling us that we know nothing about running individual clubs which that person hasn't visited, and knows absolutely nothing about.

I don't wish to chase you away from this, or any other forum, and I do think you often have valid and important points to make. I simply question whether getting your point across can only be achieved by drawing blood, or whether some slightly softer option might be more effective?

Were you to show to those who have different ways of working, the respect for their expertise that you would wish to receive, it would, IMO, be a very good start.

Don T.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:22 PM

The party's over
dim the lights,
Empty the ash trays
of redundant claims,
The ghosts of voices
in the night
Discuss another set
of party games

- The Party's Over. Phil Beer & Ashley Hutchings

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 08:24 AM

Don,
I have strong opinions on some subjects which I try to express honestly - sometimes vehemently, as I would expect of any other contributor.
If this comes across in the way you describe - I cannot see that I can possibly have anything to offer to this forum - so perhaps I should leave you all to it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 04 May 09 - 06:36 AM

After fifty years of performing at, and organising, folk, clubs, singarounds, and sessions, I have long advocated that joining in with a singer who is out front, concert style, should be by his/her invitation only, except for choruses.

Singarounds are somewhat different, and I tend to join in with others who I KNOW will not mind.

Sessions are by definition joining in events, and anybody wishing to perform without others' input should so indicate at the start of his/her song.

IMHO, of course.


Jim Carroll said....""Your posts get nastier and more dishonest every time you make them - was it something I said?""........

Pot and kettle Jim! You have hardly posted two polite comments in the last year, so to accuse those you despise and denigrate at every opportunity of treating YOU badly is, frankly, laughable.

So, YES, it was pretty near everything you said.

Don T.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 05:16 AM

"Jim, I was being facetious."
Sorry Seamus - I really shouldn't post just after I've got out of bed.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 04 May 09 - 03:36 AM

Spot on Seamus

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 May 09 - 03:28 AM

Jim, I was being facetious.
I know, it's hard to tell in print.

I don't have any trouble getting my audiences to sing along, or not, depending on the song.
If I want them to join in, I'll encourage them to do so, and if I don't want them to join in, I'll say something along the lines of: 'Listen to the words of this one."

I find that a bit more diplomatic than saying: "Now, don't sing along with this song."

And occasionally it's fun to try to get them to sing along with an instrumental piece like Dueling Banjos or the Teetotaller's Reel.

Really!

Seamus

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 May 09 - 02:57 AM

"if you don't want the audience to sing along, sing songs they don't know; if you do want them to sing along, sing songs they know."
And so allow the audience (or club organisers) to dictate what you can and what you can't sing - is this what you are suggesting Seamus?
"Let's just not sing anymore. Let's just listen to one person sing at a time & let's all let the lights go out while we're at it."
On the other hand, let's ban solo singing in clubs and just accept that audiences will join in whether the singers wish them to or not. As much as I have loved Pete Seeger's singing down the years, if his style of performance was the ony one folk music would be so much the poorer.
Roll over Joe Heaney, Texas Gladden, Dillard Chandler, Sheila Stewart, Jeannie Robertson... and all the old solo singers - your singing is no longer wanted on voyage!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 04 May 09 - 02:09 AM

Let's just not sing anymore. Let's just listen to one person sing at a time & let's all let the lights go out while we're at it. Pete's day is over, why in the world would anyone want to lift their voices & be heard when some one else can do it for us???

Barry

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 04 May 09 - 01:38 AM

As a performer it appears simple to me:
if you don't want the audience to sing along, sing songs they don't know; if you do want them to sing along, sing songs they know.

Seamus

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 May 09 - 07:06 PM

It's still unclear to me just why it is a terrible outrage perpetrated against a singer to suggest that he or she tell the audience, before starting to sing, whether or not singing along--on the chorus or refrain, if there is one-- is desirable. It is of course obvious that if there is no chorus or refrain, there is no singing along.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 May 09 - 04:23 PM

Well I'm sorry Jim, but I have to continue to disagree with you for two reasons.

Firstly, I've been going to various clubs and festivals for over 40 years and none of the ones that I've attended on a regular basis has had any RULE about joining in. But I can't recall any instance of the audience joining in at an inappropriate moment.
If there has been any offence caused to a visiting singer then it has not been obvious and has been so infrequent that it does not merit the creation of a RULE.

Which leads to the second reason, namely that much of our traditional music exists in an informal world and the fewer rules that there are the better. The more regulated that it becomes then, I believe, the fewer people will join us.

Rely on the audience,they may not be always right, but they're not often wrong.

K/van

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:59 PM

personal problems??

Having read through most of Rifleman's and your postings, I see it as a vastly different opinion to the music, trad or otherwise than you have. I'm leaving it at that, as I've no personal wish to get into slanging matches with either of you.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:54 PM

"We're all subject to speeling mistakes"
Me too - but I'm not particularly happy at being stalked from thread to thread (I think this is the fourth) by somebody with a somewhat large personal problem - anything to get rid of the pratt will suffice.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:18 PM

I don,t care much for either Jim Carroll's or Rifleman's opinions but that's neither here nor there. We're all subject to speeling mistakes...I know I am!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:09 PM

I have never yet found it a problem.
guest AW,who recently went to one of my gigs,stated that he found someone else singing along with me annoying,this is a fair comment.
every audience member who is at a club or a concert does need to consider the other people present.
I was at a seated concert some months ago [cinema type seating],and had my concert disturbed by someone who needed to go out for a smoke every 20 minutes,so I had to stand up and let them pass four times.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Azizi
Date: 03 May 09 - 09:40 AM

This is, of course, yet another of those threads that doesn't have a right/wrong answer.
-Kampervan


I hope I'm not the only person who would find it more interesting to discuss different culture's traditions regarding singing along with a solo performer and how & why those traditions change within particular groups (such as the points that Jack Campin made about New Zealand and the point that Ref made about Canada). But I suppose that is a whole 'nuther thread.

It seems clear that with regard to this subject that there is never going to be total agreement about what is proper to do in particular settings and what is not.

That said, I've found it interesting reading this thread and observing the group dynamics and seeing how people choose to make (or not make) their points. But at some point-to quote a well known American children's song-"the wheels of the bus [keep going] round and round".

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ref
Date: 03 May 09 - 09:00 AM

Maple Leaf Boy raises an interesting tangent. Is it the Canadian tradition to LISTEN to the National Anthem, or to The Mary Ellen Carter? As a boy during the sixties (In USA) I remember hearing the anthem at public events and the crowd always sang along. Now it's become a performance piece and everyone listens as the performer shows off range and melismatic skills. Perhaps in my youth I just was around more WWII vets who had considerable investment in being Americans, or maybe it's just because my parents were fine singers, but I miss those days and the feeling that we were all Americans together, despite our many differences.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 09 - 06:33 AM

Kampervan,
By "encouraging the audience to join in" the club has already circumvented any 'rules' by making it common practice to sing along with Gordeanna, or anybody who turns up (I could add Kevin Mitchell, Len Graham, Sheila Stewart....... and dozens more, but that would be just my personal preferences).
It really is far safer to (if you are to have it at all) leave the decision to the main singer, though personally, I'm always perfectly satisfied if there are enough chorus/refrain songs.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 May 09 - 04:47 AM

So, we've moved on from the, "I find your view that it is rude for members of the audience to sing along with a singer uninvited to be morally offensive" ploy to insults now, have we? Surely, a sign of real desperation!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 May 09 - 04:01 AM

This is such a difficult question. I agree with you totally Jim about Gordeanna McCulloch, no way would I join in with her cos it would be wrong.
And I think that most people would know that and not join in; but I couldn't lay down rules as to when you should or shouldn't join in.
But it would still be a sad day if audiences never again spontaneously joined in with a singer.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 May 09 - 03:06 AM

In the end, both from the point of view of the singer who, hopefully, is trying to interpret the words and not just repeat them, and the audience, who may not want to listen to his or her neighbour sing the (maybe or not same set of) words in or out of tune, loudly or softly, whatever takes their fancy, it has to be a decision of the performer and no-one else. Otherwise you either have to set ground rules, for which you obtain the individual performer's permission beforehand, or abandon solo singing altogether and adopt what Maple Leaf Boy has just amply described - community singing.
A number of people who have tentatively supported the practice (like Big Mick), have also accompanied their support with descriptions of what can go wrong.
Personally, if I go to a club to hear Gordeanna McCulloch sing ballads, and come away having had to listen to the person sitting next to me singalong with everything she does (whether in a quiet mutter or a full-throated roar, as above), I am left with the feeling of being cheated of a good night out - would any club organiser out there feel they have given me my money's worth?
Wyatt:
"simply because I see you as a defficet to the "folk"
I think you mean deficit - don't you? I'm beginning to be a little bored at being cyber-stalked by somebody who can't spell - please go away.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Kampervan
Date: 03 May 09 - 02:43 AM

This is, of course, yet another of those threads that doesn't have a right/wrong answer.

Many songers, myself included, are only too happy when people recognise a song for them to join in the chorus:and I accpet that repeated lines in ballads do not always constitute a chorus and should usually be left alone.

As a solo singer, I don't mind if anyone with a good harmony tags along on the verses. I will admit that, very occasionally,an auduence can highjack a chorus cos the version that they sing locally is different from mine and that can throw you a bit, but overall I'd rather have the buzz of an audience singing along.

Now that won't suit everyone, so maybe the answer is for people like me to invite participation rather than for the audience to assume that its ok. But if it does happen to you, it's fairly safe to assume that the audience is singing along out of pleasure with your performance and your choice of song, and accept the compliment.

P.S. Jim, L.K. is one of the most nicest singers that you could wish to meet, and no visiting singer would anything less than total respect at her club.

K/van

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: maple_leaf_boy
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:48 PM

When not to sing? What would be your impressions on this? Everybody in
the audience knowing the words to the song, and purposely singing loud enough that they couldn't hear the performer. I was backstage at a show
once in a small town, and a girl sang the national anthem. Most of
the people in the audience knew her, but they didn't like her, and
it had nothing to do with her singing. They just sang so loud to drown
her out. She was a good singer to those backstage who could hear
her. But wouldn't that be a reason not to sing?

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jack Campin
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:18 PM

Seems to me like Linda and her friends have built a community with its own ideas of what constitutes politeness and having a good time. For an outsider to storm in there and insist on their right to perform solo come what may would be just plain boorish.

On the other hand, maybe the club might also decide to book somebody who operated that way simply for a change. So long as everybody knows what to expect there need not be any bad feeling. I can't imagine there'd be a lot of singing along if they booked Adam McNaughtan, for example (though he does have a few chorus songs).

I can see Azizi's point. Growing up in New Zealand I got to see a bit of the Maori/Polynesian way of doing things. It would be just about unimaginable for a Polynesian singer to insist on unaccompanied solo performance, in a Polynesian cultural context.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: High Hopes (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:56 PM

I was wondering what this concentrated cacophony reminded me of, and Rifleman's introduction of Bob Dylan into the debate brought it home to me.

The first verse and chorus of Dylan's Desolation Row.

They're selling postcards of the hanging
They're painting the passports brown
The beauty parlor is filled with sailors
The circus is in town
Here comes the blind commissioner
They've got him in a trance
One hand is tied to the tight-rope walker
The other is in his pants
And the riot squad they're restless
They need somewhere to go
As Lady and I look out tonight
From Desolation Row.

That's how I see it, anyway!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:39 PM

Clearly there are differences of opinion as to what's reasonable and where the onus lies for defining what's expected on a particular occasion. I can live with differences of opinion, and I can usually respect even those that I strongly disagree with.

However I find GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie's "grow up and accept it you bunch of tossers and don't be so bleeding precious!" seriously offensive. Regardless of who holds what opinion, insults and name-calling won't help anyone.

Richard

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:37 PM

One last thing, and I'm leaving this alone. I can't recommend highly enough Colin Irwin's book Bob Dylan: Highway 61 Revisited Legendary Sessions. The Chapter on the last desperate stand by the old guard at the Newport Folk Festival, is most instructive.

This is what the old guard tried to stand against.

Newport 1965

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:21 PM

Me a lout, simply because I see you as a defficet to the "folk" communities at large, rather an asset, as some appear to do? I see your last couple of postings a desparation born of knowing you've been sussed.

Your credibility appears to be close to zero. Stay in your archives and let those of us who actually want to participate in performance and in the clubs,do so. As I believe I've said before, you talk a good gig, and that's about all.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 04:06 PM

........grow up and accept it you bunch of tossers and don't be so bleeding precious!"
Have you met our marksman friend? He's a bad-mannered lout too - you should find you have a lot in common.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: GUEST,Bruce Michael Baillie
Date: 02 May 09 - 03:23 PM

I agree with Marje, it's a community entertainment thing, grow up and accept it you bunch of tossers and don't be so bleeding precious!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 03:15 PM

This gentleman is not the typical example of someone I would book at the club. Normally, we have pa'd singers with instruments who are more contemporary than Walter Pardon. A comparison between him and the type of act we have would be flawed.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 02:49 PM

No, because he was a nice man who wouldn't dream of asking somebody not to sing - yet on numerous occasions it threw him - on at least three he dropped songs from his repertoire because of harmonised choruses taken at half speed by audiences.
Sorry to keep on with this, but it is fairly basic.
I have sat in the audience next to the neighbour from hell who thought she could hold a tune, but couldn't.
I have heard of 'singers from the audience' who insisted on singing their own versions of songs; or ones who would sing, say, every other line, or speak the words.
Are there any rules to the practice of encouraging audiences to sing or can everyone have a go?
"I have no idea which part of......."
I'm really not addressing you - please speak when you're spoken to.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 01:52 PM

Because he's old? We are not an insensitive audience Jim, I didnt think it applied to us.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 12:55 PM

I was going to leave this (yet another) going nowhere threads, but Carroll`'s attempt at guilt tripping:

"You didn't respond to my Walter Pardon example, so presumably you would be prepared to discomfort a nice old singer at one of your club nights"

This quite simply beyond the pale, though why I sould be surprised by this response, I don't know, it' typical!

I have no idea which part of " it's ultimately the musician that makes the decision as to whether there is audience participation or not, during her/his performance" Carroll doesn't understand

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 12:27 PM

The onus should never be put on the singer to ask an audience not to join in; Richard Bridge and Mario (who told us a singer has no rights) have made it perfectly clear why. I know singers who would hate the practice but would be far too polite to object. It happens very occasionally over here, usually when the culprit is drunk. They are usually deal with by a member of the audience calling out "One singer - one song", which invariably does the trick.
Can I ask - would anybody go to say a poetry reading at the local library and join in with the reader if they happened to know the poem - or likewise to a play by an amature dramatic society. It's not just confined to music - it's a simple case of good manners and courtesy as far as I'm concerned.
Somebody earlier mentioned mouthing through a song they knew along with the singer - why not confine your responses to that?
You didn't respond to my Walter Pardon example, so presumably you would be prepared to discomfort a nice old singer at one of your club nights.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: wysiwyg
Date: 02 May 09 - 12:06 PM

An audience is a precious commodity, easily lost. I'd think that what the audience wants should tend to influence the dynamics from the front-and-center folks..... How DARE they presume to enjoy the singing so much that, inspired by a fine singer, they might think to so much as open their throats and join in!!!

When I think of the money I've spent on folk music over many years-- never realizing how many of the "performers" were watching for any opportunity to wring resentment out of my pleasure-- it really pisses me off.

(If one is singing not for one's own joy but to control others and flatter one's own ego, well, that would sure explain a lot!)

Look, no one likes to be controlled by someone else. If YOU Love the song enough to sing it, is it really a surprise others also may love it that much as well? DAMN them for not being mindreaders! Why not just line 'em up and shoot 'em. But be sure to pick their pockets first. :~)

~Susan

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Rifleman (inactive)
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:42 AM

rather, a tone of 'this is what we do - so there!!'

I know more than a few musicians with this self-same attitude.

Ron Davies is right, it's ultimately the musician that makes the decision as to whether there is audience participation or not, during her/his performance.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:22 AM

Well to a certain extent Jim, it is what we do, because it is what we do-but not in an arrogant or disrespectful way, but because we all love to sing and we chose performers who will enjoy us as much as we enjoy them. Club members would be mortified if they felt they had made a singer or musician feel uncomfortable. It's just the way we choose to enjoy our music and I don't think any one should criticise us for it.   There would be no problem if a singer said choruses only and the best of them can silence the room anyway. The joy of music lives in our club and I can't apologise for that I'm afraid. I will apologise however for the incident with the farting dog, but that's a whole different story!

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 May 09 - 11:02 AM

Certainly the singer decides whether he or she wants the audience to sing along. Nobody denies that.   The only point, as many of us have already stated, is that it's reasonable for the singer to tell the audience--before he or she starts singing-- whether or not singing along is desirable.

It's a rare member of the audience who will blatantly disregard the singer's wishes after that.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:48 AM

Linda,
I apologise for my knee-jerk reaction.
For me, the right of any performer to perform unhindered is a basic one which you, by deciding in advance that the audience automatically be encouraged to join in, infringe.
I described ealier how Walter Pardon, an elderly field singer, was forced to drop songs from his repertoire because of insensitive audiences.
Walter was far too polite a man to make rules when he sang at clubs, so presumably, were he booked at your club, he would be subjected to the same treatment you apparently subject all your guest singers to.
Had Walter objected in any way he would then, presumably be given the Richard Bridge treatment "he thinks he is better than us".
Surely it is the singer, not the club who should decide on something as basic as whether or not an audience sings along with the songs?
I may have been wrong, but I detected no attempt on your part to explain your policy - rather, a tone of 'this is what we do - so there!!'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 10:08 AM

Am I bovver'ed about your insults -no not really. Am I bothered about growing a successful club and allowing people to enjoy themselves to participate in live music and to be part of something really special week in week out -yes I am -very much so. Dont come to our club Jim, because I am sure you wouldn't enjoy it -it wouldn't be your style -but the peole who come each week do, and the artistes I book have nothing but praise for the club and it's atmosphere. I have never once have an act say to me 'I love the club but the singing really annoyed me' but lots say 'When can I come back?' You have your opinion and I have mine -don't be disrespectful of people's differences.

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 07:41 AM

No Linda, I don't consider club organisers as a 'vile underclass', having been one myself for a long time - I consider some, particularly those who ecourage their audiences to sing along with the performer, thereby depriving them of the right to perform solo, as irresponsible, and the audience members who prefer to hear the singers interpretation of the song rather than that of the person's in the next seat.
Are you bovvered - I'm sure you're not.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 May 09 - 06:59 AM

yes,Barry.I am booked atScarboro sea fest 2009 looking forward to meeting you too .

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 02 May 09 - 05:56 AM

''If I go to Linda Kelly's club I will be faced with her 'massed choirs of (whatever they call themselves)" because they "positively encourage" the audience to join in - no matter what a visiting singer might want. How bloody arrogantly repressive can you get?
As far as I am concerned it is the singers who make the running in terms of their own performances - not some tasteless organiser.''

I think your statement is about as bloody arrogantly repressive as it gets Jim. Calm down dear, its not good for your health. We don't have massed choirs we have an attentive and friendly audience who delight in the performance of professionals, buy their CD's pay for them to perform. Don't humiliate them and treat them like morons who can't string a tune together. I am also a professional performer, and I am delighted if people join in with my songs, it seems to me the most natural thing in the world to want to sing along and we at the club never outsing the performer. I take it as read on Mudcat that there are some folk who see club organisers as some vile underclass going by other threads that I have seen. Clubs would run without us the only difference being that no one would be booking professional performers doing publicity running websites balancing the books and dealing with all the other stuff -we would have sessions only. Thanks for delivering my first personal attack in all my years on Mudcat-as they say on the telly -'Am I bovvered?'

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 May 09 - 03:06 AM

Ref
"Now when doing a sing-along, and someone sings along but just "off" enough to hang you up, can anyone suggest a positive way to address the (unintending) malefactor?"

Yes, stop & say that someone's singing off & name them if you know who. Sometimes it doesn't help though & please try to do it with some sensitivity. Hah, hah

Barry

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Barry Finn
Date: 02 May 09 - 02:57 AM

"In the US it seems to be common to sing from "The Book"'.
Not true Marje, only in certain circles where they can't get away from singing without a book! On the whole there are far more places in the US where singing from "the book" just doesn't happen.

"When in Rome do as the Romans"

It's been over 25 yrs since I've been to any music clubs/sessions overseas & that was only when I was in Ireland. I'm extremely excited to have been invited to perform at a festival in the UK in July & I'm dying to finally get to see & hear what your clubs & sessions are like. Not to worry, I make it a habit to see what's the norn before I embrass myself.

Here in the US we don't have the equalivent of your folk clubs in the UK or Ireland. We have club societies that run concerts & house concerts, bars & pubs that get used as venues & put on folk performers or have sessions but from your discriptions we don't really have folk clubs with regulars & their own floor singers where every so often hey put on "Guest" & have a few floor singers inbetween & after sets. There may be a few places that come somewhat close to that but it's not at all common.
However we do have some places were singers * musicians gather to play together & loads of sessions where there's hardly any singing, though as Tom mentioned above there are a few but they are not the norm buy any means. Then there are many Getaways, the best I've seen are the DC Getaway which many east coast muddcatters have been to & the West Coast's end of the yr Lark just north of San Francisco which I last attend almost 30 yrs ago but cna still taste.
Here in the US I do believe it's much more common for us to join
in.

When I perform, I do mostly worksongs & shanties. Songs that were meant to have others sing along with. I love people singing, I do care that they sing what I'm singing, tune & words but I want them to enjoy what they come out to do & that's sing, so when they're singing I'm happiest. If don't often sing ballads but I do love to sing them, I don't because mostly people want to sing. When I'm at an after hours "fringe" (sing session? not sure it's your word) at a festival & it's all singers pulling the "rare & uncommon" tricks out of their hats & it's just keeps getting better & better & the ballads are getting darker & longer, you can bet that a pin drop can be heard & that no one would brake the trance,,,,or sing along that's also true here.
It's different everywhere.
My opinion, first if you're the singer let everyone know straight out beforehand if you don't want them to sing or if you want them to join in, give them that respect & you will get it in return. If you're gonna sing a chorus song or something with a refrain here then expect that you'll get folks to sing along weither or not you ask. I always encourage folks to join & & if they sing the whole way through it their song to sing with I never owned it in the 1st place. I dont have much of a problem with others trying to lead me or sing over me or doing whatever they do, I have mostly found that before the song ahs gone to far they're right in set & in tune with me.
When I'm over there I'll do as you do but hopefully I'll be able to enjoy a song or 2 while I'm there

Captain Birdseye, I'll be looking forward to meeting up with you. I'm told that you're also on the bill at the Scarborough Seafest, yes??

Barry

Subject: RE: When NOT to sing
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 May 09 - 02:37 AM

For me, this thread is a peep into the contempt in which the individual singer is held as a creative or interpretive performer.
M. Mario put it fairly clearly when he said that the performer has "practically no rights in the eyes of the public". And that apparently is how it stands nowadays.
If I go to Linda Kelly's club I will be faced with her 'massed choirs of (whatever they call themselves)" because they "positively encourage" the audience to join in - no matter what a visiting singer might want. How bloody arrogantly repressive can you get?
As far as I am concerned it is the singers who make the running in terms of their own performances - not some tasteless organiser. It is they who should decide whether they want the audience to join in and are perfectly capable of indicating their wishes in the matter; they should not have to cope with some crass decision made beforehand on their behalf.
Of course, they can always go cap-in-hand and request permission to be allowed to perform their songs solo. But then they would have to contend with Richard Bridge's superb:
"It must be wonderful to be so aware of your superiority that the rest cannot and must not join in with you. " Or M Mario and his friends who have somehow voted themselves the right to join in with whatever they choose, giving the performer no say in the matter whatever.
This is treating the singers as little more than performing animals with no choice whatever in how their songs are performed or received.
Contrary to Bryan Creer's 'fence sitting' act, it is the job of the club organisers to present the visiting singer with as much freedom as possible within the policy of the club to perform their songs as they wish without having to fight an audience desperately trying to sound (at best) like The Humming Chorus from Madam Butterfly.
I think I was given the most unnecessary piece of advice I have ever recieved on this thread when Linda Kelly said "Best not come to our club Jim," - I wouldn't go within a hundred miles of a club that imposes such a repressive and restrictive policy on visiting singers. Somebody explain to me what these legendary 'folk police' I keep hearing about are - on second thoughts, don't bother - I think I get the message.
Jim Carroll