Can someone explain bar (tavern) music to me?

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: oldhippie
Date: 21 Jul 09 - 05:48 PM

Ever hear the song "Piano Man"?; that about sums up bar music.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:28 PM

I used to play a pizza joint/bar. Like Mary said, people would listen, even if they didn't appear to be. I played what I liked (for four sets and low money, what else would you do?). If there was a celtofile in the crowd they would like what I did. If not, they liked the guitar playing. I looked at it as a paid rehearsal. When I teamed up with Margaret, we got turned down at the same place as "not squire material" (the place was called The Village Squire). We thought about putting that on our promo material.
   Later on, we did some St. Patrick's Day gigs where the owner hadn't listened to the demo. The paid rehearsal thing pays off sometimes.
   I did get someone commenting that I looked like (on stage)like I didn't care if the audience liked what I did or not. Which might not work to your advantage. I wound up getting a day job, and just playing gigs where they want to hear what I do. (Check out tradfolky1 on youtube). Good luck.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Ian Fyvie
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 09:21 PM

"Hands up who has been asked to 'sing something we know'...!! "

Reminds me of a bar singaround a mate tried to start 18 months ago. Apart from a few loyal folkies happy to support any of our colleagues on a new session, all we got was a a group of good natured drunks - who came out with the classic line above.

I said sorry I didn't do well known songs; I'm a singer songwriter. "Oh", said one of our merry viitors: "Can you do Oasis?' .

The good thing was that we discovered a very keen guitarist through that venture who comes along to our well established singarounds from time to time.

On the main issue, I really can't see any point in a musician/performer playing whilst the Bar Tele is on unless they're getting well paid.

However, given that a publican might offer lots of money to compete with penalty shoot outs, then certainly look around for anyone enjoying what you do despite the odds, and get them along to a singaround where they can experience our preferred music in a better environment.


Ian Fyvie

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Mark Ross
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 08:07 PM

Many years ago, in a former life I played honky-tonks in Montana. One weekend we were in eureka, and there were a lot of drunken Canadians who would come across the border due to the cheapness of the potables and the more liberal drinking hours. A couple of times during the course of the evening on of the drunken frostbacks would stagger up to the edge of the stage and blearily request, "Play the RODEO SONG." Not ever having heard the song I would inquire "How does it go?" At which point they would drunkenly chant something along the lines of "..I don't give a fuck and I get in my truck, and I'm off to the rodeo...". finally despairing of getting anything close to a melody out of any of them I proceeded to give them THE CASTRATION OF THE STRAWBERRY ROAN. After that they never came up to the stage to make any request for the rest of the evening.

I haven't played a honky-tonk in 25 years. I decided that I wanted to play for an audience that knew why they were there. It's not that I have against anything against bars(I was usually right up against them in those days), I just realized that playing music in that kind milieu didn't suit what I wanted to do. It was good practice, but the pay usually was less than I wanted, and I had to play more sets than I thought I should have to for that kind of money. the going wage back then was 50 bucks a night, plus you had to haul too much equipment, and put up with too many bar owners who had no idea what kind of music you played when they hired you.

Mark Ross

---

Link added by anonymod. -JoeO-

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: TonyA
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:18 PM

I tend to expect that other people like to hear music as much as I do. But events often suggest that many people are more interested in the idea of being in a place where music is being performed, regardless of what they can or can't hear.

For example, I played recently in an art gallery, with no amp. After I'd been playing for a while, everyone gravitated to the room I was in, and stayed there, all talking at once, for over an hour. They created a bedlam so loud I could barely hear my own guitar. Yet people kept coming over to tell me how much they enjoyed the music. I guess they were enjoying the experience, though not the actual sound. On the plus side, it meant I could play whatever I wanted.

And many years ago I found myself in an Irish bar in Kansas City where a blues band was playing in the back room so loudly that you could hear them at about the same volume as the music playing on the stereo in the bar. The combination was a bizarre and extremely unpleasant noise. I asked the bartender why he didn't turn off the stereo while the band was playing. He gave me a menacing look and said that the music on the stereo was for the people in the bar. Here again, the idea of music was what mattered. The people in the bar were paying customers and were entitled to music, even if it was impossible to enjoy.

Perhaps the preference people express for cover songs is related to this. It allows them to participate actively in the visual experience of being where live music is being performed -- by requesting a particular song, or simply knowing whether they should like the music or not.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:08 PM

The 'Requsts' that wind me up are the people who say "Of COURSE You Know it , it goes a La La " -   For ME , KNOWING a song means ALL the Words , and ALL the Chords AND a decent arrangement !
And in the right place (NOT a Folk Club) Wild Rover will at least get some audience participation

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Tootler
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 07:03 PM

Then, of course, there are the idiots who want "The Wild Rover"...

Then give it to them, if that's what they want. You are being paid to entertain after all. Anyway why are they idiots? The Wild Rover is a perfectly good song it's just that at one time it was overdone.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 05:03 PM

Then, of course, there are the idiots who want "The Wild Rover"...

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:27 PM

I was listening to a couple of old vinyls of mine recently. One was a "Bud & Travis in Concert" album, the other a "Kingston Trio at the Hungry i." In both cases, you could hear ice clinking in glasses and calls for songs not in the repertoire of either group (Play Melancholy Baby!!) Travis responded to one heckler by saying "We did have a couple of requests for Harbor Lights," which got the heckler heckled. Dave Guard suggested that the group "suck on ice cubes in 4/4 time." The recipe calls for more up-tempo songs and a willingness to forge ahead no matter what happens. The late Tom Clancy once called out, after hearing a beer mug hit the floor, "Hit 'im again quick, lad!" A good sense of humor won't hurt, along with a thick skin. Above all, don't allow yourself to get caught up in a "last word" pissing contest with a heckler.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Bernard
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 04:19 PM

Unfortunately, trying to 'grab attention' tends only to last for a few bars of a song or tune they briefly latch on to - until closing time, that is, then you are suddenly the focus of attention because they think they'll get some extra drinking time out of it!

I've learned the knack of finding the person who is listening and playing just for them. It usually brings a few others in, but not always, but you do feel better knowing it's not all in vain...

As for being 'wallpaper' - some wallpaper is expensive and very classy, so don't run yourself down!!

Hands up who has been asked to 'sing something we know'...!!

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: open mike
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 02:55 PM

once when playing at a bar (hosting an open mike night where i attempted to encourage others to be creative as well) i made a
velcro curtain to cover the huge t.v. screen to remove it from
view. i insisted that the thing be turned off during our session!

Another place i have played is at a cowboy music and poetry fest
that happens on the same weekend as a large rodeo, so the local bar always has the rodeo on the big screens as we try to play music.
makes a nice backdrop, but there is not adequate amplification
for the musicians...

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: JeremyC
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 01:43 PM

DW - Thanks for the comments. Earlier today I was looking at your youtube channel, and I think your cover of "I'm Your Man" is fantastic.

I think in my case, they were expecting something/someone different, especially since the person who booked me didn't listen to the demo I gave her. A half hour or so after I started, I had the general manager of the place come up and say that I had to start playing stuff that was upbeat and loud, and play with "confidence" (which to him meant turn up the volume knob, because after I did so, I had more confidence according to him), and basically rattled me. Anyway, the people there just didn't seem interested for the most part, and what's funny was, once I changed my setlist, the people who HAD been listening left. But hey, the manager was happy.

I've been playing out for maybe a month or so, so I have next to no experience, and I'm having to go by what I can figure out, or what I read online. A big part of it is probably that I should loosen up. It's hard not to be self-conscious in front of any audience, much less an apparently indifferent one.

Eric - I do know some pretty obscene songs; maybe I should have come out with those as well!

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 01:33 PM

Just play Rawhide.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:58 PM

Richard Bridge: Very good point about the association with courtship ritual. I had not thought of it that way, but you are likely right.
DW: Well said, and I agree all around.
But I do note that, since it is common that I am the only person in the room who is truly 100% listening, I have become friends with a lot of musicians. I know you know who is really interested.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:55 PM

Once a long time ago, as a duo, who had played clubs and had been resident singers, we played a rugby club. (As a player myself it didn't bother me) the bar noise was terrible and we seemed to be playing and singing only to the front row (intended pun) of about ten. At the other end, the bar was in full Saturday night swing. Some one at the front shouted to the back to "effing shut up" as they couldn't hear us. The response came. "Well sing some decent effing rugby songs then not poncy stuff". This we did as I happened to know just a few risque songs myself. It turned into a great night with a huge aduience response and offers of a repeat night. (We'd been asked to avoid rugby songs and put on "entertainment of folk and popular music") I did wonder why we'd been asked to perform when it was obvious that most of the group there wanted a Saturday piss up. (Why else go to a rugby club?)

Most people in pubs and bars are hoping (even if distantly) for a shag. Therefore they expect music. Says Richard. they'd have been hard put that night, there was only about 15 women there !And I wouldn't have suggested the gay option to this lot !! LOL

Another time, just a few years ago, we playeda ceilidh in a working mans club for a birthday party. Saturday afternoon, open to club members, the party group, and the local boy cafe racers club. Talk about chaos ! We couldn't hear ourselves over the TV.The soccer was on. Cheers, boos and shouting at the ref and "other side" was in full swing. People cutting across the dancers, spilling beer as they went. Boy racers reving up outside to drown the TV, and with 90,000 watts Hifi's on full drum n bass. It was for us and the caller, a nightmare ! The punters who hired us said it was a brilliant time !! (The food looked beautiful but had been well and truly smoked out by the time for the nosh)

Makes you wonder why you do it sometime.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: dwditty
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:45 PM

Hi Jeremy,

I have only been playing out for the late 6-7 years, but I will offer my thoughts on the subject, which you my find helpful or rubbish - either way, I am not offended.

Which brings me to my first point: My philosphy is that performing has nothing to do with the performer - it is all about the audience. Whether playing a concert where the audience is seated in rapt attention or in a noisy pub, it is their time. Now, it is up to the performer to make sure the audience is getting what they want. Read the room. If it is filled with people dining or enjoying a drink and conversation with friends, the music should support that - atmosphere, if you will.   If it is friday night and people want to let loose a bit, then putting the music more up front makes sense (and up beat, too). Be advised that sometimes one's style of music is simply not a fit for whatever is going on, in which case, get through the gig as best you can, get paid, and go off to look for other venues. In most instances though, you will find, as leadfingers said, anything from a tapping foot to a full on boogie...play to those people until the rest get it.

Leave your ego at home. I am bewildered when I see a performer get all pissed off when the people they are playing for don't fall down and absolutely love the music. I could easily create a list of hundreds, if not thousands, of musicians I would not really care to see. I think everyone does. So if I am on someone's list, so be it.

You mentioned having difficulty grabbing listeners' attention. I cannot tell how many times I see simply wonderful musicians bore an audience to death. They seem to be playing simply for their own enjoyment...sometimes even doing a bit of navel gazing along the way. While there is usually some (or a lot) in an audience who are simply transfixed by a performer, very often people do not want to have to work too hard to get the music. Go to a classical concert by highly rated performers, and I will almost guarantee you will see people nodding off. Make your music fun and you will get the audience everytime - that does not mean a whole show of novelty songs - it means make sure your audience knows that you are having fun...they will automatically jump on board.

Material.   I can assure you, I do no Jimmy Buffet songs (I think he is great, but Jimmy Buffet is Jimmy Buffet). Same with James Taylor, CCR, on and on. Sometimes at a lively open mic that I visit the same song is done by multiple performers (Think Dead Flowers - a simply wonderful song done to death). Of course you could change the songs up a bit and make them something new, but I believe that people really want to hear Mick Jagger doing a Stones cover - not DW. So what do I do? I do lots of stuff with a real solid 2 and 4 that many have not heard before, or only occasionally. This is due in large part to the fact that I lack the chops and voice to imitate the original - plus I am too lazy to learn it note for note. I do alot of Randy Newman - but not Short People. I do some Tom Waits. Lots of old blues. Maybe some Dave Van Ronk-style stuff. I occasionally pull out something like Singing On a Star, which everyone on earth knows, but never hear in a bar...they all sing along. Sometimes I even do old spirituals like Hush, Somebody's Callin' My Name or Jesus on the Mainline. People never expect to hear those in a bar. (I usually say something like, "This concludes the religious portion of the show." after singing one of those.)

Dare to be different, but not so different that people don't know what the hell you are doing! Put everything you've got into each song, even in a quiet setting - it doesn't have to be loud. And one final tip, make really funny faces - grimaces, if you will, when you sing. People love that!

dw

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:19 PM

tvs are on a lot of the time in Ireland often with the noise turned down,it gets really bizarre,when people are watching the cheiftains but listening to irish trad musicians live.
its a part of the degeneration in irish life,the tv has become more prevalent over the last twenty years.another reason I suspect why singers like to hve their clubs in seperate rooms, away from musicians and away from tvs.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 12:03 PM

it is just wall paper music,its a disgrace,and is disrepectful to the music,and can be soul destroying for the musicians,fortunately there are generally a small minority who genuinely appreciate the musicians efforts,but out of choice I would play in folk clubs and festivals and art centres.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 11:53 AM

Music is associated with Western courtship ritual. Most people in pubs and bars are hoping (even if distantly) for a shag. Therefore they expect music. It's the same as the rise of disco in the 80s.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: JeremyC
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 11:14 AM

Leadfingers - It can be worse than that! A friend of mine told me he stopped playing in sports bars after an incident where they were in the middle of a song, he was doing a harmonica solo, and suddenly everyone started cheering. Since that was unexpected, he looked up...and saw that a field goal had just been scored on the television screens directly above the stage.

Mary - Yeah, one thing I really need to learn is how to "work a room." I tend to just play, and I have no idea how to grab attention that isn't already on me.

Celtaddict - I like pub music, too. And I don't normally hang around in bars, unless there is good music to be had, which is extremely rare. It's just such a depressing environment.

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 11:05 AM

I'm afraid I can't help much, Jeremy, though I can describe my viewpoint, different from yours. I really enjoy a lot of music that has become considered 'pub music' I suppose in part at least because in some places traditionally the public house was where it was shared. I have often thought the main problem with liking 'pub music' is that you have to go to pubs to hear it. In the U.S. of course there are places I consider pubs that offer music to be enjoyed, along with conversation and company. But far too many are what I consider bars, which are much more as you describe. I don't drink, I don't smoke (and am glad most bars around here no longer have smoking), I am not trying to get picked up, and usually am by myself, so these places are far from my favorite venues, but for whatever reason that is where I am most likely to hear some of my favorite performers, doing traditional and tradition-based Irish, Scot, English and American songs, including songs appropriate for singing along. The performers tell me they play there because that is where the money is. I confess that the nights that are worst for business are the nights I enjoy most, when it is quiet enough that the music can be heard, the musician can include quieter ballads and contemplative lyrics, and there is interaction between musician and audience. But that 'coffee house' atmosphere as I think of it involves so few customers that neither the musician nor the business owner can make a living at it. The folk club concerts are of course a much better place to hear, but they tend to have a concert once a month (and not during the summer) and a performer no oftener than yearly and most only every several years, so if I want to hear a regional favorite, the bars are the most likely place. It can be pretty frustrating from the audience point of view too!

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 10:59 AM

I have only done Solo Bar in UK , and would certainly NOT Expect a TV to be on in the same room !
But as Mary said , it is often the case that people ARE listening - I
used to look for the tapping toe or finger , even when I was sure I was 'Only Musical WallPaper' .

Subject: RE: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 10:53 AM

I know what you mean. Believe it or not, often some of the people at the bar who don't appear to be listening really are. I've played sets in pubs/bars where I was convinced nobody was paying the least attention, and had people come up afterwards to tell me how much they'd enjoyed the set. You have to just use your judgement as far as including familiar chestnuts on your set list but in general I think unless a song is really, really catchy, if it isn't 'familiar' they tune it out. It is very difficult to play in bars, unless you're somebody who really knows how to 'work a room' and that takes a lot of practice and a certain 'knack'.

Subject: Can someone explain bar music to me?
From: JeremyC
Date: 20 Jul 09 - 10:41 AM

So not too long ago, I got a gig in a bar that I came to thinking it was a restaurant. My fault, obviously (although the person who booked me didn't bother to listen to my demo), and I did my best to salvage the situation with a radical revamp of my playlist. Anyway, since so many of you are experienced musicians - something I'm not - and have probably done the bar thing before, I had a couple of questions:

1. What is the point of bar music? From what I can tell, the people in a bar are there to drink and watch "the game," and yet the owner wants you to play upbeat stuff that they're clearly not listening to, really loud. As far as I can tell, the only point of this is to provide enough background noise that the patrons have to shout at each other and the staff. I don't get it - why go someplace to drink, watch the game, and shout at people?

2. Okay, I understand that people want to hear upbeat, familiar stuff. But in a given setlist, in your opinion, what is the minimum amount of Jimmy Buffett, Tom Petty, CCR, Skynyrd, etc. relative to music I like (trad/blues/60s "folk") that I can get away with? Or is this the wrong attitude to take? Is there some perspective I can adopt that will allow me to see a different reason to play in a bar besides the money and the sheer number of bars?

I really appreciate any light any of you can shed on this.

Jeremy