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BS: Another year, same old story

Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 12:56 PM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM
Jim Carroll 24 Jan 18 - 11:29 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 11:00 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 10:30 AM
Greg F. 24 Jan 18 - 10:13 AM
Donuel 24 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 02:32 PM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 05:06 AM
Jim Carroll 23 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 02:18 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 01:33 AM
mg 23 Jan 18 - 01:19 AM
Joe Offer 23 Jan 18 - 12:31 AM
Jim Carroll 22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM
Mr Red 22 Jan 18 - 10:58 AM
Greg F. 22 Jan 18 - 10:53 AM
Greg F. 22 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM
Raggytash 22 Jan 18 - 10:46 AM
Raggytash 21 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM
mg 21 Jan 18 - 04:57 AM
Jim Carroll 21 Jan 18 - 03:46 AM
Joe Offer 21 Jan 18 - 03:19 AM
mg 21 Jan 18 - 02:11 AM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 03:56 PM
Senoufou 20 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM
Gutcher 20 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 02:18 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 18 - 02:14 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 18 - 12:29 PM
Jeri 20 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM
Jeri 20 Jan 18 - 11:49 AM
Keith A of Hertford 20 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM
Raggytash 20 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM
Joe Offer 20 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM
Steve Shaw 20 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM
Greg F. 20 Jan 18 - 09:26 AM
Jim Carroll 20 Jan 18 - 06:14 AM
Raggytash 20 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:56 PM

And another good "christian" apparently - Nassar taught religion classes at the Catholic church in East Lansing, MI.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 12:48 PM

The ex team USA gymnastics doctor sentenced to up to 175 years for criminal sexual abuse against children.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:29 AM

"responded in a way that I would call the norm before 2002"
You mean up to the point where the the extent of the abuses hit the fan Joe - no problem with that whatever
If they didn't "know what to do" when they found the clergy were molesting (raping actually) children without "a strategy", than they were not fit to have children in their care
Surely, the first thing any thinking human being does is to prevent the offender from having any contact whatever with children - maybe what happens top the perp once he is discovered needs a plan, but that's it.
Instead, fellow priests stayed silent, Bishops catigated the parents and the predators were passed from parish to parish until their behaviour became to apparent to be hidden - then Africa became their stamping ground.
The hierarchy were a part of these abuses and the Vatican still refuses to release the documented evidence of them - the blunders of a Pope who seems to be a breath of fresh air, compared to what has gone before, is evidence enough that the Church still doesn't realise the enormity of this affair.
Ireland (one "Holy Ireland" is an interesting place to live at present
The Church is fighting desperately to hold on to its hold over children through the schools, the priests are preaching to near-empty churches and this morning Ireland has been told by the American business community that unless the schools drop their 'baptismal certificate' demand it will have a detrimental impact on trade with your country.
This year we will see yet another referendum on the rights of women to terminate pregnancy and the church is already sharpening its knives for the fray (pretty much as it did with same-sex marriage)
Interestingly, the Pro-Life crowd have employed the services of the agency that got Trump elected into office.
"Happy days are here again"
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 11:00 AM

Greg you may have missed 'rectumfying'


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:30 AM

Like Hirshfield hid his daughters name NINA in each of his drawings I have quotes or allusions to events in some of my posts that is not always so obvious.

sometimes ya gotta entertain yerself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:13 AM

child rapists on one side and the children on the other. Obviously good people "on both sides".

Oh?

Rather like Trump's "good Nazis, racists, and white supremacists" ???


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Donuel
Date: 24 Jan 18 - 10:05 AM

Too Simplistic?

Well you got your child rapists on one side and the children on the other. Obviously good people "on both sides".

Under the radar you got your third side; the fixers, the smoothers and the justifying RECTAFYERS quietly rectumfying the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:59 PM

That's too simplistic a view, mg. The people who taught you right from wrong were mostly women who were great people and great teachers, but they had no power. The men who had the power were worried about political expediencies, had their heads so buried in politics that they had no clue about the impact of their politics on children.

One nun who had been a Catholic school principal at the time, told me, "We told the bishops time and time again what those priests were doing, Joe. But the bishops wouldn't listen."

And now those bishops are dead, and we're left with the mess.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:44 PM

They did not always and everywhere ignore the problem. They forced abuses from law enforcement, the judicial system, suppressed news reporting, prob interfered with health providers. These are the people who disgustingly tried to teach us right from wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:32 PM

Oh, okay. You're not going to like my response, Jim, but the St. John of God order responded in a way that I would call the norm before 2002. The Catholic church had not yet developed procedures for dealing with child molestation, and they simply did not know what to do. At the time, other institutions who employed molesters were responding in the same way. As I said above, the Catholic church in the United States knew of the problem in 1985, and there were high ranking people in the church who had developed policies for responding. My diocese and many others developed their own policies that were made nationwide in 2002, and those dioceses had relatively few problems. However, those in power in the national bishops' organization chose to ignore the problem at that time. In other words, politics took precedence over doing the right thing. More-or-less the same thing happened in Ireland and in most parts of Europe - many responded properly, but the people in power in the national organizations took no action. And Rome thought it was the job of the national organizations to handle it. And I think it's safe to say that the national organizations were afraid to interfere with the autonomy of local bishops. And that let certain local bishops get away with murder.

I knew this was happening since the 1980s, because the National Catholic Reporter reported every step of the way. But the newspaper was considered to be a liberal rag that was undermining the authority and respectability of the Church and showing gross disrespect for bishops and for His Holiness, John Paul II. We kept speaking out, but those in authority refused to respond. They followed political expediencies until they finally were shaken to their senses in 2002 and years following.

You may well agree with me, Jim, up to this point. But here's where we diverge. The bishops who cast those fatal votes to ignore the problem, were just casting individual votes and did not realize the impact of their votes. They saw all this as a threat to their individual authority to control their own dioceses, and they voted against that thread and had no awareness of the impact on the children who were victims. And not, the rules have been in place for 15 years and are working - for the most part. And the people who cast those votes are dead or in their dotage. And we have a Pope who wants to do the right thing. But you're still rubbing our faces in the shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 06:18 AM

"I don't know of the St. John of God Order. If you have factual information about it, please let us know about it."
The article from the Irish Times is reproduced iin full above Joe
22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM
Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 05:06 AM

Hi, Jim -
I don't know of the St. John of God Order. If you have factual information about it, please let us know about it.

I do know about the Legionaries of Christ an order founded by Macial Maciel, a child molester who basked in the favor of Pope John Paul II. Cardinal Ratzinger knew what he was up to, and banished him as soon as he became Pope Benedict XVI. The bishop of my Sacramento diocese welcomed the Legionaries, and they started a seminary for 12-year-old boys about 5 miles from my home. The seminary closed when Maciel was banished, apparently before any 12-yr-old boys were molested.

That same bishop named John Corapi Chief of Doctrine in our diocese, and this was a very dangerous man. He was very popular and developed a "following." I wrote a letter to the editor of the diocesan newspaper, complaining about Corapi. I was castigated for my letter for months afterwards. I felt really good years later, when Corapi left the priesthood in disgrace.

Weirdos like Corapi and the Legionaries arise occasionally in the Catholic Church, and they occasionally find favor with local bishops. I'm sure they're very much like your St. John of God people, Jim. I've felt an obligation to oppose such people with all the fervor I can muster. They embarrass the hell out of me.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 04:10 AM

"But is it nonsense? Again, we're dealing with thirty-year-old offenses"
That were taking place throughout the church on a world scale, in which covering up for and passing on abusive clergy was not just commonplace but was a standard reaction when the problem got out of hand
That may be circumstantial evidence, but it's enough to sway any jury
The St John of God Order, which you choose not to comment on (and who's to blame you) is an example where a serial abuser was not just passed on, but was allowed to set up a home for street children which he used as his own personal supply of victims.
Examlples like this make the Church just as guilty as the perpetrators - if not more so.
The perps could claim illness as an excuse for their behavior - the Church did what it did out of self-preservation
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 02:18 AM

he must have had something to gain. a passive aggressive poke in the eye to the "stupid" people in the diocese. A slap to his own commission. Points with Opus Dei and all those weird religious orders that spring up with charismatic leaders and sordid secrets. some deal with vatican people who might somewhat dictate to him. i do not know. he could have left well enough alone. he could have appointed him to some archival job. who knows. it stinks to high heaven.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:33 AM

Here's a very insightful article about the Barros situation from 2015, at the time Francis appointed Barros to the Diocese of Osorno, Chile:While I have to admit that the evidence weighs heavily against the Pope, I continue this think that the Pope must have made the appointment because he believed and still believes it to be the right thing to do. Politically, the decision to appoint Barros was disastrous, and Pope Francis had nothing to gain from making the appointment.

Here's the Wikipedia article on the Karadima case:


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 01:19 AM

i do not think the pope named him bishop . he was already a bishop and he gave him a new job, which he did not need to do. there are testimonies from victims or maybe just one that barros was a witness to abuse. not someone who shuffled papers around to protect someone. a witness. put that in your pipe and smoke it. whether it is true or mass hysteria i do not know. but 30 priests and deacons wrote to the pope; there was a popular uprising in the church building itself. read up everyone. http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2015/03/31/vatican-decision-to-appoint-bishop-juan-barros-was-correct/

if a large part of a country is up in arms, if the window dressing commission the pope himself did not want this..why in the world was it done? look again at pell. why oh why do we have such people in a church. there is something really really wrong with this pope, despite some good works with refugees, homeless etc. no one has blind spots this big. i don't know if someone is pulling his strings..i don't know. none of it adds up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Jan 18 - 12:31 AM

I think that although it's old-fashioned, it still may be of value to argue from actual facts, and not from unfounded public opinion. There's an excellent 2015 article in the Catholic Herald (UK) that gives some solid information on the Barros situation. The writer of the article seems to think that Francis's appointment of Barros was unwise, although there is no solid evidence against Barros. It still seems to me to be a case of "all smoke and no fire." But yet, there has been strong and even violent opposition to Barros.

Let's look at this thing again. There has been a lot of opposition to Barros, but yet the Pope named him bishop in 2015, and continues to support Barros. The politically expedient thing would be for the Pope to give in to public opinion and remove Barros and sentence him to "a life of penance and prayer." What has the Pope to gain by supporting Barros? - nothing. His decision to support Barros is politically foolhardy.

The Pope gains nothing from supporting Barros, so why would he do it? I think he does it, because he firmly believes that it's the right thing to do - and he's taking a big risk by continuing to support such a controversial figure. This Pope has shown a habit of doing what's the right thing to do, even though it may be unpopular.

Up above, I said, "they're (the victims) just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not."
And Jim Carroll replied Of course they are Joe - that is nonsense.

But is it nonsense? Again, we're dealing with thirty-year-old offenses. Barros was apparently a subordinate of a child molester priest. What do we really know about what he knew? Child molesters ordinarily do their deeds in private, and they are extremely clever at covering up what they've done. That cleverness is what allows them to seduce children - but I think that molesters are equally able to seduce the adults around them into thinking that nothing is wrong. But since Barros was close to the molester, a huge number of people are sure he must have known what the molester was doing. As far as I can see, that's the only "evidence" against Barros - guilt by association. He was close to the offender, so he should have known.

I an embarrassed to say that I have known a number of child molesters. I went to the seminary with them. Generally, I thought of them as extremely good people - but yet ten years after I knew them, they were molesting children. Never would I have expected these good guys to do such a horrible thing, but I have to face the fact that they did.

I think that may well be the situation with Barros. He served under the molester, but there's a good chance he had no idea that this seemingly-admirable priest was molesting children.

I think that we all know molesters - but yet most of the time, we don't know anything at all about the crimes they are committing. Child abuse is one of the best-hidden crimes in existence.

I think that those who are to blame should be punished, and removed from any positions from which they might be able to do further harm. But as with any crime, I think we need to be sure we're blaming the people who actually are to blame. I think the Pope is right to ask for evidence, and for specific information. I haven't seen any specific information about Barros, other than the fact that he worked closely with a child molester. So did I my friends, so did I - and I had no knowledge of that until decades later.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 11:12 AM

"offering an apology to the people of Chile who he maligned."
Hope he doesn't breathe too dep a sigh of rlief if his apology is accepted
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times
ORDER REPORTS NEW ABUSE CLAIMS AGAINST FORMER PRINCIPAL
Elaine Edwards
The St John of God order has said it has told the Garda S?ochana about new allegations of child abuse against a former school principal who subsequently went to work with children in Africa.
Br Aidan Clohessy was head of St Augustine's, a school for boys with special needs in Blackrock, Co Dublin, from 1970 until 1993, when he was relocated to Malawi.
The first serious child-abuse allegation was made against him in 1985; two new claims by former St Augustine's pupils emerged as late as this week, a newspaper report said on Sunday.

TWENTY ALLEGATIONS
The report claimed that up to 20 allegations were made against Br Clohessy up to 2014, and that when the State established the Residential Institutions Redress Board, in 2002, payouts were made to Irish accusers of Br Clohessy but he continued to work with children in Africa after that time. It also alleged that he had converted a garage at his home to house boys who had been on the streets.
Irish journalists were brought to Mzuzu, Malawi's third-largest city, in 2010 to see the work of the Tipperary-born brother, who had established an array of mental and other health services for some of the most vulnerable people there, including prisoners.
The St John of God Order said in a statement: "While the order cannot comment on individual cases or on cases arising from unsubstantiated reporting, it is responding in accordance with its safeguarding policies and procedures and has reported the allegations to the relevant authorities and will co-operate as required."
The order said it was reviewed in Ireland by the National Board for Safeguarding Children in the Catholic Church in December 2015 and had fully co-operated. "Up to 2012, the order fully accepts that its responses were not what they should have been in the reporting and management of cases."
All the allegations reviewed by the safeguarding board were reported to the Garda S?ochana and Tusla, the Child and Family Agency. "The St John of God Order reiterates its unreserved apology to any individual who has suffered any form of abuse while in its care," the statement said.
The order added it had "endeavoured to respond to and appropriately support any individual who has been hurt during their time in the care of the order" and that it "would urge anyone who may have suffered abuse or who has a concern to come forward, or to contact the relevant authorities".


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:58 AM

does he get a chilly reception?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:53 AM

'Scuse me - make that Peruvian terrorists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:51 AM

He's been busy taking on Chilean terrorists - gossiping nuns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Jan 18 - 10:46 AM

Breaking news in the UK so I haven't got the whole story but it looks like Pope Francis is offering an apology to the people of Chile who he maligned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:20 PM

The clergy on a lighter note:

Skiing Priests


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 04:57 AM

i believe the victims claim the barros witnessed the abuse..as was right there. i have no idea if that is true or they made a story up. however. it stinks to high heaven and large portions of at least one country believe it is true. there was no need to promote him, given the fervor with which parishioners protested at the time. now they have firebombed 9 churches i believe.

and back to pell. what a disgrace to the world. not just the church. it is public knowledge how he treated the victims of abuse and their families and the pope pulls him up to the vatican amid huge outcries from australia. again, no need, unless to protect him from the law.

this pope is partially good and the rest absolutely horrid. he seems to have no sense of responsibility..that he inherited this mess and he is the one who has to tackle it or he should not have taken it on. we are rotten to the core and the world knows it and no amount of pussyfooting or insulting the victims is going to change that. only honesty will and we are not an honest church.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:46 AM

"they're just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not."
Of course they are Joe - that is nonsense
A documentary on the most vicious and most prolific Clerical rapist, Brendan Smythe, showed clearly that the parents of victims went to their Bishop to report his rapes and were castigated by him for doing so.
Who is more likely to know whether Barras covered up the abuses, the victims or the Poe who has accused them of slander, just as Smythe's Bishop did.
This is a disgraceful affair and the Pope is behaving disgracefully, and in doing so he is damaging your religion.   
It is fairly obvious from THIS ARTICLE that the church was fully aware of the possibility tha Barros had covered up abuse - he was not just a colleague of the abuser - he was his protege.
It is not up to the victims to bring proof of the crimes they are accusing Barras of, it is up to the church to hold an enquiry on the accusations that have been made - thye haver gone on as if nothing has happened
The only good thing to have come out of all this is that it provides a perfect example of how the church, right up to the top echelons behaved throughout the whole period that the abuses took place and is now providing proof positive that the contrition expressed by the Vatican is as meaningless as a fart in a hurricane
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 03:19 AM

Senoufou says: To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.

I don't think ther victims would lie. I think that they firmly believe what they say - they're just not in a position to know whether Barras did a coverup or not.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: mg
Date: 21 Jan 18 - 02:11 AM

o'malley has just spoken up and said the pope has cost pain to survivors...do you think? and if anyone thinks this problem is not happening all over the world, and I am referring specifically to the catholic church although others do of course...they are deluded. i understand wanting to protect the assets of the church, but not its pitiful, corrupted reputation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:00 PM

I'd hesitate to label anyone with those epithets Greg.

Joe doesn't seem to have that problem - in fact he's quite free with those epithets.

Of course, Trump & company are similarly adept at demonising personally those they disagree with or who are not of their particular group...........but I digress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 04:13 PM

I'd hesitate to label anyone with those epithets Greg. The only people who are completely detestable in this matter are those who abuse/have abused children.
I don't believe for one moment that anyone on here (including Joe) condones paedophiles. It would simply be more civilised (and more profitable) if posts could be toned down a bit and views expressed with less vitriol.
I think the main root of all the distress in Chile is the 'expiry' of the right to lodge accusations. If only victims could do so in retrospect, as is acceptable in UK for example, the witnesses could be examined in a Court of Law and the matter concluded with Justice not conjecture.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:56 PM

To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.

Well, Joe obviously thinks they would. Why don't you take up the issue of squabbling, fighting about religion, blame, name-calling and so on with him.

Best,

Hateful Greg, ABA (Asshole Bigots Association, Inc.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Senoufou
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 03:00 PM

To get back to Juan Barras for a moment, I find it hard to imagine that victims from the past would lie about such a thing.
It must be incredibly difficult and require much courage to come forward and tell what happened. This kind of disgusting sexual abuse must have traumatised the victims and during all these years they would probably have been psychologically and mentally affected.

I'd concentrate on them rather than on squabbling and fighting amongst ourselves about religion, blame, name-calling and so on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Gutcher
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:49 PM

In the letters page of the Irish Times last year a gentleman under his own name and with the designation SJ confirmed Jim Carrols views on the said Society in unequifocal terms.
Perhaps Jim or another can dig a copy of the letter out of the archives and put it up on this thread {it being beyond my computer expertise to perform this task} No one from the SJ refuted the statement made in that letter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:18 PM

And Greg_F? Well, he's just habitually hateful.

Habitually hateful? Well, fuck you then! And the priest you rode in on.

Happy now, Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:14 PM

Well hysteria is an absolute too far, and Greg is not hateful. Direct, undiplomatic and cussed awkward at times (I've taken lessons from you, Greg! ;-) ), but I actually believe that there's not a hateful bone in his body. And I can't definitely say that about everybody here. We can get a bit ardent, that's a fact. But I'd let you buy me a pint or three any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 02:10 PM

""Give me the child at the age of 8, and I'll show you the man""
Probably as long as it takes you to realise that these are crimes committed by more than a "few bad apples" and they were assisted by your church Joe
Whatever the Jesuits meant or didn't mean, the church ruled by fear and influence wherever it had any authority - especially in Catholic Ireland, where that authority was written into the new State - the last remnant of that power is hopefully about to be removed with the repeal of the 8th amendment
I grew up aware of the fear generated by the church - my father lost his when he was excommunicated for fighting in Spain; my mother never did and still allowed herself to be bullied out of her last pennies by a priest making his weekly visits.
Fear of the clergy who were prepared to abuse their power by the use of spiritual blackmail was a major factor in these crimes and the hierarchy stood by and let it happen - they even facilitated the atrocities by moving the perpetrators to parishes where they were not known
Say that this didn't happen please Joe and remove the scales from my eyes.
You and Keith may shout "bigot" as loud as you want - if bigotry is a hatred of those who abuse their power to rape children - guilty as charged
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 01:12 PM

Well, no, Steve. Every once in a while, you make sense.

You say: But the Church HAS dragged its feet badly over sexual abuse and it HAS condoned the mistreatment of women and it HAS been utterly unreal in its teachings about contraception and those teachings HAVE caused harm, and it HAS been misogynistic and it HAS been antisemitic.

I would agree with every word of that assessment, and all of that deserves serious discussion.

If you haven't done so, take a look at the National Catholic Reporter article I linked to above:The article is an honest, critical, and very factual discussion of the sex scandal, and it isn't complimentary at all to the U.S. bishops. That's the kind of discussion we need - something that looks into the issue seriously and stays away from broad generalizations.

But that's not what we're getting here. Instead of delving into the facts of the situation, we're getting countless repetitions of surface information. The very frequency of the repetition distorts every discussion into bigotry. Raggytash started this thread with "yet more abuse" - but it was abuse he reported in another thread last year. If I mention the word "Jesuit," how long will it take for Jim Carroll to come out yet again with his twisted interpretation of "Give me the child at the age of 8, and I'll show you the man" ??? And then he'll go off once again on his Jesuit brainwashing theory. And Greg_F? Well, he's just habitually hateful.

I come from the Land of Bigotry, and I know bigotry when I see it. I've seen similar anti-crime logic used to condemn blacks and hispanics and gays and homeless people. It's hard to refute that sort of bigotry because it's based on facts - but it's distorted to create the illusion that the misconduct is an everyday occurrence committed by all members of the targeted class.

And yes, crime is a serious matter and must be dealt with seriously.

Not with the hysteria I see so often in these threads.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:29 PM

Well, as an anti-religious bigot meself, I find it rather strange to look back at many of my posts to do with religion that relate the positives and the humorous side of being brought up a Catholic, taught by the Salesians indeed, including some of the harmless absurdities visited on us poor wretches by men who were not, in many regards, of the mainstream world. Only yesterday in another thread I was talking about the SVP which I was a member of when I was in the sixth form, going out to help elderly and lonely people. I've frequently exonerated the Catholic Church on account of the fact that it isn't too hard to stop being a Catholic. No-one threatens to cut off your head, for example. I've stated several times that I know that the vast majority of clergy operate with only good intent and goodwill, even though they're deluded in some of what they promote. In thirteen years of being raised in Catholic schools, including going on a good number of residential trips, and later teaching in a Catholic school for seven years, I never witnessed nor caught wind of any sexual abuse. But none of that warm, cuddly stuff can water down my strong opinion that religion is far more a force for harm in the world than a force for good. Which is not to say for one second that it's all harm and no good. But the Church HAS dragged its feet badly over sexual abuse and it HAS condoned the mistreatment of women and it HAS been utterly unreal in its teachings about contraception and those teachings HAVE caused harm, and it HAS been misogynistic and it HAS been antisemitic. And it IS OK to bring that stuff up and to do so is NOT bigotry. Religion is just one of many topics of conversation on this website and OK, some posters are opportunistic in making their points at times. But I don't see any obsession here. The people you accuse discuss issues all and sundry, and religion is a little way down the popularity chart. By accusing people of bigotry you are simply keeping the fire aflame, Joe. Not helping. Just because you're discussing a matter for which the Church is rightly being criticised, it doesn't mean that you have to include balance in every post. I've put balance in this post but you still think I'm a bigot, don't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 12:01 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:53 AM

"Why does only clerical abuse matter to you?"
Why do you claim that clerical abuse is the only thing that matters to us Keith
Have you forgotten already that it wasn't that long ago we were involved in an argument about abuse, including paedophilia by politicians, which you were also defending
Why do you defend this shit by pointing to others - what kind of human being does that?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jeri
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:49 AM

It's just an excuse to attack, period.

Mudcat is now home to a bunch of folks enamored of "recreational outrage". If they ain't pissed off about something, they ain't alive. Best to leave BS alone, because it's never again going to be possible to have a reasoned discussion with folks here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:38 AM

As I said earlier,

Then there is child abuse by teachers, family members and friends, grooming gangs, youth organisation volunteers, people traffickers sports coaches and all the others.
Why does only clerical abuse matter to you?

As Joe said, it looks like just an excuse to attack religion.
Just bigotry


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:28 AM

Sorry, Raggytash, but that's not the way I see it. I can't say that you personally have put any blame on me, and I respect you for that - but I still think you're obsessed with this matter.

But there are plenty of others who have heaped all sorts of bullshit on me. You don't have to look far in this thread to see it.

For the record, I acknowledged this sex abuse scandal and have been following it closely long before most of you ever heard of it. I have never denied the crimes or the coverups if they were supported with reasonable evidence; but I have also heard a lot of rumors and conspiracy theories that just don't make sense. And I have seen many, many 30-year-old stories reported here at Mudcat as new evidence, when in fact the same stories have been the basis of hundred-message threads a year or a month before.

So, all this hulabaloo makes it appear that there are new sex crimes happening in the Catholic Church every moment, when the fact of the matter is that it all happened thirty years ago. The crimes happened, and they are serious - but this is not the primary thing that goes on in the Catholic Church and most Catholics never experience or witness any of this.

I experience a very similar phenomenon in my community, a small town of maybe 20,000 people and about 250 homeless people. Yes, it's true that the homeless people can be bothersome at times, and they do commit petty crimes on occasion. There is an organized group in town who are absolutely obsessed about the homeless situation, and they make it seem that the town is under constant attack by homeless people. Some people get all upset if they even see a homeless person within a few blocks of their home, and there are leaders who take delight in getting people upset about the "plague" of homeless people in our community. I'm one of the most vocal advocates for our homeless shelter, so I'm the target of a lot of angry verbiage. People have accused me of all sorts of horrible things. This week, I gave a man an old sleeping bag that had my name on it - I wonder what trouble is going to happen once the sleeping bag gets left behind and somebody finds my name on it.

I saw an old homeless man in a wheelchair at our church choir practice, and then he went over to the school gym next door. The next day, I heard a kid at the gym had been assaulted by a homeless man. Turns out, the guy in the wheelchair yelled at a kid, and this was termed a "verbal assault." But when the kid's anti-homeless father told the story, he neglected to mention the wheelchair and the fact that the "assault" was only verbal. A year later, the father told the story at a county Board of Supervisors meeting, and he blamed me by name for the incident because I hadn't called the cops when the man was watching our choir practice.

That's what I mean. Crime does happen, and it is a serious problem -
but most often it's not anywhere as serious as people think it is. Stories of minor incidents get repeated over and over again and distorted into something far more serious than the reality. Stories of serious incidents are changed and repeated so often, that people get the impression that they are surrounded by crime.

So it is in the Catholic Church. In everyday life in Catholic parishes, there is very little awareness on the sexual abuse of children by priests. Everybody acknowledges that it happens on occasion, but very few people have and direct knowledge of such incidents. But from the outside, there's a distorted view that child abuse is an everyday occurrence in the Catholic Church, and Catholics are covering the whole thing up.

That's what these constant threads do - they present a very distorted view of the Catholic Church as some sort of evil mind-control place. In actuality, a Catholic parish is just a place where people go to play bingo on Wednesday and have fish frys on Friday and spend an hour at Mass on Sunday. For the most part, Catholic parishes are disgustingly normal, but they're nice communities to be part of.

So, you bigots go on with your obsessions. But I think you're crazy.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 11:03 AM

You cannot get away from teh fact taht, until this affair hit the fan it was standard practice by the church to cover up abuses until it became impossible to do so; then the perps where shipped off to practice their abuses on 'less important' victims - this has been shown to have happened over and over again.
If it proves to have not been the case in this particular instance, then the Church have only themselves to blame for past behaviour.
Going by past records, the benefit of the doubt has to rest with the victims
If the Pope is not careful he is going to create the same situation Trump is now in in having to think twice about any country he visits - how many times have you seen people out on the streets protesting about a Papal visit - I can never recall an instance of it happening?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 10:29 AM

So...Jim quotes the Irish Times: They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a lifetime of 'penance and prayer' for his crimes in 2011.

These accusers were victims and eyewitnesses of the crimes of Karadima, so of course their testimony about the actions of Karadima is credible.

But what about the actions of Bishop Barros? Were these "credible witnesses" also eyewitnesses of the actions of Barros? One accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz, said "...while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all." Some of the news articles seem to have interpreted this as saying that Bishop Barros was an eyewitness, standing at the crime scene and watching as it happened. But is that the case, or was Cruz simply assuming that Barros had full knowledge of the crimes as they were happening?

A lot of people seem to have a very distorted view of how the Catholic Church functions. I see it time and time again in these endless threads, how you people seem to think that bishops know all of their priests and know everything that their priests are doing. I don't know if it's a wise policy or not, but most bishops do not serve as bishops in the diocese where they were born and raised and ordained. They don't get to know the priests they supervise until they've served as bishop for a few years; and then they may see priests briefly two or three times a year, if that. Priests work in parishes and spend most of their time with parishioners, not with bishops or with other priests. Most priests don't even particularly like bishops, for that matter. But people assume that bishops know all about their priests and everything their priests do. That's just not the case.

This sex scandal developed and peaked during the 25-year reign of Pope John Paul II, whom I detested. I think JPII did everything he could to destroy the advances made by Vatican II, and to restore authoritarianism to the Catholic Church. And so, he appointed bishops who were loyal bureaucrats. And he ignored any problems that made his church look bad. As Cardinal Ratzinger, Benedict XVI was the first person of authority in Rome to take serious action against the child abuse scandal, and he continued that after he became Pope.

But Pope Francis is the one who really started to turn around the mess that JPII made. In general, he has been very wise in his choices of bishops. He has strategically assigned very good people where the messes were most serious. It's clear that Francis heard the objections at the time he appointed Barros, but he did not and does not consider those objections to be credible. There are lots of conspiracy theories floating around on this issue - you can find scads of them in Mudcat threads.

I haven't seen any reports of credible evidence against Barros. So far, it's just a lot of noise.

-Joe-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 10:06 AM

"that shows that your real intent is just to make religious people look bad"

We don't have to do that Joe, the perpetrators do that very well all by themselves.

I repeat no one is blaming you for any of the abuse that has occurred, is that clear, no one is blaming YOU.

However until the various churches that are involved put their houses in order I, for one, will continue to "name and shame"


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Joe Offer
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:55 AM

Nope. No deleted posts.

And yes, I think that most of you are anti-religious bigots, whether you like to be called that or not. There's no doubt that the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church was and is a serious problem, but there's a good number of you who are downright obsessed with this thing, far beyond anything that would be considered a rational response. Perhaps one or two of you was a victim of sexual abuse as a child. If that happened to you, then that's a terrible thing and I am very sorry that happened to you.

But I don't think that's the case for most of you. For you, it seems like a feeding frenzy, punctuated by occasional spurts of your born-again atheism that shows that your real intent is just to make religious people look bad.

So, yeah, it's bigotry. And I feel like a primary target of that bigotry. I think it's unfair and unjust, and your bigotry makes me very angry. It's especially disappointing because except for your anti-Catholic obsessions, you're all pretty nice people - people I agree with on almost all other issues.

And Raggytash, you and Jim Carroll are the worst of them. I can't understand why you are so obsessed with this issue.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:41 AM

i suspect that posts are being deleted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 09:26 AM

Anti-religious asshole bigots? As opposed to pro-religious Catholic apologist bigots, perhaps?

Joe, take a deep breath & get a grip.

Greg F, ABA (Asshole Bigots Association, Inc.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 06:14 AM

Your Church appears to have a death-wish Joe
Someone needs to reign the Big Feller in before you lose even more supporters - bloody insane!
Jim Carroll

From this morning's Irish Times

POPE ACCUSES ABUSE VICTIMS OF SLANDER
Pope Francis has accused victims of Chile's most notorious paedophile of slander, in an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.
Francis said that until he sees proof that Bishop Juan Barros was complicit in covering up the sex crimes of Father Fernando Karadima, such accusations against the bishop are 'all calumny'.
The Pope's remarks drew shock from Chileans and immediate rebuke from victims and their advocates. They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a life?time of 'penance and prayer' for his crimes in 2011.
A Chilean judge also found the victims to be credible, saying that while she had to drop criminal charges against Karadima because too much time had passed, proof of his crimes was not lacking.
'As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all,' tweeted Bishop Barros's most vocal accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz.
Truly crazy
'These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty.'
The Karadima scandal dominated Francis's visit to Chile and the overall issue of sex abuse and church cover-up was likely to factor into his three day trip to Peru that began late on Thursday.
Karadima's victims reported to church authorities as early as 2002 that he would kiss and fondle them in the Santiago parish he ran, but officials refused to believe them.
Only when the victim went public with their accusations in 2010 did the Vatican launch an investigation that led to Karadima being removed from ministry.
Francis had sought to heal the wounds by meeting this week with abuse victims and begging forgiveness for the
crimes of church pastors. But on Thursday, he struck a defiant tone when asked by a Chilean journalist about Mr Barros.
'The day they bring me proof against Bishop Barros, I'll speak,' he said. 'There is not one shred of proof against him. It's all calumny. Is that clear?'
Anne Barrett Doyle, of the on?line database BishopAccountability.org, said it was 'sad and wrong' for the pope to discredit the victims since 'the burden of proof here rests with the church, not the victims and especially not with victims whose veracity has already been affirmed.
'He has just turned back the clock to the darkest days of this crisis,' she said in a statement. 'Who knows how many victims now will decide to stay hidden, for fear they will not be believed?'
PA


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Subject: RE: BS: Another year, same old story
From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Jan 18 - 05:43 AM

"I tend to think that this matter must be dealt with rationally and with solid evidence and not hysteria"

Yet you post in the same paragraph "There's a bunch of you asshole bigots here" and "anti-religious bigots"

Further on you post "Some of you asshole bigots will condemn me for that, but that's the truth. If you can't admit the same about yourselves, then you truly are assholes" and then later "You asshole bigots may think .............. "

Is this what you consider to be rational and not hysterical Joe.

Just one more thing, for the record, I have never held you to be personally responsible for anything.


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