Origins: Stagger Lee / Stack O'Lee / etc.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: MissouriMud
Date: 23 Jun 09 - 02:51 PM

The Christmas time Billy Lyons shooting involving the hat that is mentioned in most versions of the song happened in St Louis (I can see the site from my window) - assuming the Globe Democrat reported it accurately in its newspaper a couple of days after the fact.   However it is clear that the story and the song soon eclipsed the facts and created in Stack a symbol of the original bad dude of the Mississippi River area with stops in Memphis, New Orleans, steam boats etc, no doubt compounded by similar names, events and people in those places. The story had the appeal of universal recognition - everyone knew a Stack and he was cool, as long as he didnt shoot you. The folk process happens to stories (even facts) as well as songs.

My only regret in reading the accounts is that Stack didnt die in the 'lectric chair with his head held up high saying "my six shooter never lied".   He didnt even die while in prison for the murder conviction - but for some later offense. I debated whether to leave that verse out of my version of the song - but I figured that it is a song not a history lesson (but I ususally explain the difference after the song).

For some reason St Louis seems to revel musically in its murders - besides Stagger Lee, the Frankie/Albert, and Duncan/Brady shootings can both be placed there by various sources although those facts too are probably clouded by legend that surrounded them.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 10:46 PM

Hi, Mysha.

It took me a moment or so, but I'm pretty sure you are referring to my question in 2005 about this Stagolee verse that was included in Dorothy Scarborough's 1925 book On The Trail Of Negro Folk Songs :

Stagolee was a bully man an' everybody knowed,
When de seed Stagolee comin', to give Stagolee de road.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

-snip-

One point I was trying to make in my post was that I had just realized that the word "seed" meant "seen".

But I appreciate the way you wrote

"Stagolee was a bully man, an' everybody knowed ... TO give Stagolee de road."

because I was reading it as

"Everybody 'knowed' that Stagolee was a bully."

But what you're saying is to act like that comma in that verse isn't there and read the sentence like this:

"Stagolee was a bully. And everybody knew that when they saw him coming, they'd better give him the road (meaning "get out of his way").

**

Thanks Mysha for breaking that down for me.

This kind of text analysis isn't necessarily that important in the scheme of things. But it can be fun. And sometimes-like in this example-you can learn how a "misplaced" period or comma can give a whole new meaning to what is said (or read, as the case may be).

Come to think of it, a "misplaced period" could lead to a whole 'nuther line of inquiry. But I'm not going there. :o)

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Mysha
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 09:16 PM

Hi Azizi,

No, the sentence starts one line up:

Stagolee was a bully man, an' everybody knowed ... TO give Stagolee de road.

It's correct as it is.

                                                                      Mysha

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 09 - 08:33 PM

I rememer a verse saying "his crabs carried shotguns to fight off the fleas".

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: gd303uk
Date: 25 May 09 - 10:09 AM

Lyons eventually died of his injuries. Sheldon was tried, eventually convicted, and served prison time for this crime. This otherwise unmemorable crime is remembered in a song.

The song was well known in African American communities along the lower Mississippi River by the 1910s. Before World War II, it was almost always known as "Stack O'Lee". W.C. Handy wrote that this probably was a nickname for a tall person, comparing him to the tall smoke-stack of the large steamboat Robert E. Lee. By the time that W.C. Handy wrote the explanation in the 1920s, "Stack O' Lee" was already familiar in United States popular culture, with recordings of the song made by such pop singers of the day as Cliff Edwards.

oops
i should hae read thie entire thread, wiki' beat me to the article printed in The St. Louis Globe-Democrat in 1895

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: gd303uk
Date: 25 May 09 - 09:59 AM

William Lyons, 25, a levee hand, was shot in the abdomen yesterday evening at 10 o'clock in the saloon of Bill Curtis, at Eleventh and Morgan Streets, by Lee Sheldon, a carriage driver. Lyons and Sheldon were friends and were talking together. Both parties, it seems, had been drinking and were feeling in exuberant spirits. The discussion drifted to politics, and an argument was started, the conclusion of which was that Lyons snatched Sheldon's hat from his head. The latter indignantly demanded its return. Lyons refused, and Sheldon withdrew his revolver and shot Lyons in the abdomen. When his victim fell to the floor Sheldon took his hat from the hand of the wounded man and coolly walked away. He was subsequently arrested and locked up at the Chestnut Street Station. Lyons was taken to the Dispensary, where his wounds were pronounced serious. Lee Sheldon is also known as 'Stag'

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 05:56 AM

I like Nic Cave's version

Me too, but the video's pants. Here's a live version from BBC4:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xX_WVJDX4M

I once sang this in a singaround and was asked to leave. Maybe it's time to dig it out again...

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 01:03 AM

Surprisingly, there were only 3 commercial recordings of the song by old-time performers: Frank Hutchison, 'Stackalee' (Jan 1927); David Miller, 'That Bad Man Stackerlee', (ca May 1927); and Fruit Jar Guzzlers, 'Stack-O-Lee' (ca March 1928).

The Hutchison and Miller recordings preceded Furry Lewis' 'Billy Lyons and Stack O'Lee' (Oct 1927) and Mississippi John Hurt's 'Stack O'Lee Blues' (Dec 1928), but not Ma Rainey's 'Stack O'Lee Blues' (ca Dec 1925).

[Info from Meade et alia and Dixon et alia].

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Stewie
Date: 25 Apr 09 - 12:19 AM

Tony Furtado's rendition is worth a listen:

Tony Furtado.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 09 - 10:04 PM

The Stackalee Variations

Excerpts from the Wikipedia page about Stackalee:

"William Lyons, 25, a levee hand, was shot in the abdomen yesterday evening at 10 o'clock in the saloon of Bill Curtis, at Eleventh and Morgan Streets, by Lee Shelton, a carriage driver. Lyons and Shelton were friends and were talking together. Both parties, it seems, had been drinking and were feeling in exuberant spirits. The discussion drifted to politics, and an argument was started, the conclusion of which was that Lyons snatched Shelton's hat from his head. The latter indignantly demanded its return. Lyons refused, and Shelton withdrew his revolver and shot Lyons in the abdomen. When his victim fell to the floor Shelton took his hat from the hand of the wounded man and coolly walked away. He was subsequently arrested and locked up at the Chestnut Street Station. Lyons was taken to the Dispensary, where his wounds were pronounced serious. Lee Shelton is also known as 'Stagger' Lee. " (St.Louis, Misouri, Globe-Democrat article from 1895)

Lee Shelton (also known as Stagger Lee, Stagolee, Stackerlee, Stack O'Lee, Stack-a-Lee and by several other spelling variants) was a black cab driver and a pimp convicted of murdering William "Billy" Lyons on Christmas Eve, 1895 in St. Louis, Missouri. The crime was immortalized in a blues folk song that has been recorded in hundreds of different versions. Lee Shelton was not just a common pimp, but as described by Cecil Brown, "Lee Shelton belonged to a group of pimps known in St. Louis as the 'Macks'. The macks were not just 'urban strollers'; they presented themselves as objects to be observed."

Shelton died in prison in 1912, of tuberculosis.

-Stackalee is, along with John Henry, the most important figure in afro-american oral traditions, one of the most persistent too, his legend being present in almost every new stage of developement of afro-american music in the 20th century. In a way he is the opposite of John Henry, his negative side, surely a "bad" man, with all the clichés of violence, gambling, booze and women surrounding him, but nevertheless became a "hero" for the black community, a symbol of resistance against white supremacy and racism.

-I found some really great articles on the net about Stagger Lee: The Stagger Lee Files is a great place to start exploring the myth and the legend, Stagger Lee.com has a very complet historical page and also a list of 421 recordings!, from Early Blues.com, there's a superb essay by Max haymes and here, another brillant essay by Angela Nelson who analyse the figure of Stagger Lee in rap music.

-There are two books also of interest on the subject, Cecil Brown's "Stagolee shot Billy" and Greil Marcus's essay "Sly Stone and the myth of Stagolee" in his book "Mystery Train".

-I've selected 60 performances, trying to represent all the musical traditions that shared the song and his legend. Once again, like "The John Henry Variations", i've classed the tracks according to musical thematics but once you have download them all, it's good to mix them, to make your own list of favorites,etc…

http://oldweirdamerica.wordpress.com/

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 07:18 PM

Some new Stagolee/Stagger Lee performances

From movie Black Snake Moan
Samuel Jackson:
http://www.stereogum.com/mp3/Samuel%20Jackson%20-%20Stack-O-Lee.mp3

based on the roots version of Stack-o-lee by R.L. Burnside:
http://www.mc-records.com/html/rl_burnside_stackolee.html

(WARNING, the above are NOT G-rated versions!)

And an indispensible website on the subject:
http://stagoleeshotbilly.com/

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Mar 07 - 07:11 PM

...in recordings by white singers, such as Woody Guthrie, it's "we" that hanged Stackalee, while for black singers, it's "they" that hanged the bad man...

Well, Mississippi John Hurt was certainly black, and in his version we find the lyric:

Gentlemen of the jury
Please don't fight and fuss;
Don't you know WE'D better kill him
Before he kills one of us?

The exception that proves the rule?

Of course, now that I think of it, any jury in that time and place would have been all-white. So I guess MJH is "quoting" some hypothetical white folks saying "we."

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: voyager
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:31 PM

Here's the Woody Guthrie Stagolee Thread -

Woody Guthrie Stagolee Thread

I always liked the verse -

"Stagolee told the Devil
   Put your pitchfork on the shelf
   My name is Stagolee
   And I'll rule Hell by myself"

voyager

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Morris-ey
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 11:40 AM

I like Nic Cave's version

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:35 AM

I've read it. Its is.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Scoville
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 10:01 AM

Stagolee Shot Billy, by Cecil Brown.

I have not had the chance to read this yet but my dad said it was interesting.

"Stagolee" always amazed me because I don't believe I've ever heard the same version by any two artists. The first version of it I ever heard was the 1950's Lloyd Price one, but I've got a number of other covers now, and they are all quite different.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 08:41 AM

Tunesmith: It's a damn good thing that lad didn't touch your Stetson hat!

Re: message from George. I suppose George heard the interview on CBC last night with Derek McCulloch, author of the graphic-novel version. McCulloch says that his one original observation concerning the song, is that in recordings by white singers, such as Woody Guthrie, it's "we" that hanged Stackalee, while for black singers, it's "they" that hanged the bad man. He also claims that those same white singers do not seem to identify Stackalee as a black man - he did not explain the basis of that insight .... Just repeating what McCulloch said in the interview ....

Re: the hat. I did see a version in print somewhere decades ago in which the hat is explicitly characterised as "magic".

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 04:28 AM

I was in my schoolyard ( Liverpool, UK, 1959), and a group of us lads were talking about our current favourite records. I mentioned Lloyd Price's "Stagger Lee" ( which I loved). Another lad in the group said that it was an old song. Well, I saw red! (In retrospect, my reaction was undoubtedly to do with the fact that rock n' roll was my music! Not my parents or the previous generation). Anyway, one thing lead to another and there was a bit of punch-up. ( Incidentially, that was the last time I threw a punch in anger). A few years after this incident, I got heavily into folk and blues music and realised that the lad in the schoolyard was correct. I'm not quite sure where he got that information from, but I suspect his dad was probably a trad jazz fan.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Mar 07 - 02:28 AM

From George Seto:

I can't get to write a new message into the above thread.

I just heard about this Graphic Novel from Image Comics which
is about the original characters, and it just came out. Here's the
link:

http://www.staggerleebook.com/sl_story.html

Thanks, George.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST,The Old Mole
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 05:26 PM

I'm kinda amazed that in seven years of chewing on this song, no one has ever mentioned that the Clash did their own version of the Stagolee legend:


Stagger Lee met Billy and they go down to gambling


Stagger Lee throwed seven
Billy said that he throwed eight
So Billy said, hey Stagger! I'm gonna make my big attack
I'm gonna have to leave my knife in your back

Why do you try to cheat?
And trample people under your feet
Don't you know it is wrong?
To cheat the trying man
Don't you know it is wrong?
To cheat the trying man
So you better stop, it is the wrong 'em boyo

You lie, steal, cheat and deceit
In such a small, small game
Don't you know it is wrong
To cheat the trying man
Don't you know it is wrong
To cheat the trying man
You'd better stop, it is the Wrong 'Em Boyo

Billy Boy has been shot
And Stagger Lee's come out on top
Don't you know it is wrong
To cheat the trying man
Don't you know it is wrong
To cheat Stagger man
You'd better stop
It is the Wrong 'Em Boyo

you must start all over again-all over again
don't you know it is wrong
You got to play it, Billy, play,
don't you know it is wrong
you got to play it, Billy, play
And you will find it is the right 'em boyo

But if you must lie and deceit
And trample people under your feet
Don't you know it is wrong
To cheat the trying man
Don't you know it is wrong
To cheat the trying man
You better stop.
It is the wrong 'em boyo(x6)

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Severn
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 02:15 PM

Ian Tyson tried his own spin on things back in the "& Sylvia" years w/ something called "The Shark & The Cockroach" on the first Columbia album, by adding a third party.


Severn

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 10:37 PM

Here's another version of Stagolee that I didn't find in the DigiTrad.. Like the preceding one this is from Dorothy Scarborough's "On The Tail of Negro Folksongs" {originally published in 1925; Folklore Associates edition, 1963, pp 93}

"A version [of Stagolee] with a different tune is sung more commonly in Georgia.

I got up one morning jes' bout four o'clock;
Stagolee wan' big bully done have one finish fight;
What 'bout? All 'bout dat rawhide Stestson hat.

Stagolee shot Bully; Bully fell down on de flo'.
Bully cry out, "Dat dohty-fo' hurts me so".
Stagolee done killed dat Bully now.

Sent for de wagon, wagon didn't come;
Loaded sown wid pistols an' all date Gatlin' gun.
Stagolee done kill dat Bully now,

Some giv' a nickel some giv' a dime;
I did n't five a red copper cent 'cause he's no friend of mine.
Stagolee done kill dat Bully now.

Carried po' Bully to de cemetary; people standin' round,
When preacher say Amen, lay po' body down.
Stagolee done kill dat Bully now.

Fohty-dollar coffin, eighty-dollar back,
Carried po' man to de cemetery, but failed to bring him back.
Ev'rybody been dodging Stagolee."

end of quote

FWIW, the line "give a nickel and a dime" is very common in African American folksongs including African American children's rhymes.

Also I believe that the line "I did n't five a red copper cent 'cause he's no friend of mine" refers to the collection that was taken up to pay for Bully's {Billy's??} funeral. [that space was in the text for some reason, maybe a typo, maybe not]

BTW, one line in this song says "Stagolee done killed that Bully now" and the others say "Stagolee done kill that Bully now"...It's possible that the one line with the word "killed" was a result of the author's writing the word as she was used to saying it..

[then again, anything is possible, right?]   


Azizi

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Azizi
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 10:18 PM

Dorothy Scarborough's On The Tail of Negro Folksongs {originally published in 1925} has the following information and version of "Stagolee" [Folklore Associates edition, 1963, pp 92-93]

'Howard W. Odum, professor in the University of North Carolina, in an article in the Journal of American Folk-lore, reporrts several versions of Stagolee's carryings on. The first is sung by Negroes in Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, and Alabama, as well as by Negro vagrants as they travel casually:

             Stagolee

Stagolee, Stagolee, what's dat in yo' grip?
Nothing but my Sunday clothes; I'm foin' to take a trip.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Stagolee, Stagolee, where you been so long?
I been on de battle-fiel' shootin' an' havin' fun.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Stagolee was a bully man an' everybody knowed,
When de seed Stagolee comin', to give Stagolee de road.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Stagolee started out, he gives his wife his han';
"Goodbye, darlin', I'm goin' to kill a man."
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Stagolee killed a man an' laid him on de flo'.
What's dat he kill 'im wid? Dat same ol' fohty-fo'.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Stagolee killed a man an' laid him on his side.
What's dat he kill 'im wid? Dat same ol' fohty-five.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Out o' de house an' down de street Stagolee did run,
In his hand he held a great big smoking gun.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Stagolee, Stagolee, I'll tell you what I'll do,
If you'll git me out o' dis trouble, I'll do as much for you.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Ain't it a pity, ain't it a shame,
Stagolee was shot, but he don't want no name!
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Stagolee, Stagolee, look what you done done.
Killed de bes' ole citizen; now you'll have to be hung.
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

Stagolee cried to de jury an' to de judge: "Please don't take my life;
I have only three little children an' one little lovin' wife."
Oh dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come!

end of quote.

I wonder if the sentence "When de seed Stagolee comin', to give Stagolee de road." was a mishearing of "When de seed [seen] Stagolee comin', they give [gave] him the road"?
At least it seems to me that that is what that sentence means.


Also FWIW, "citizen" as found in the next to the last verse was a commonly used post Civil War term of respect that African Americans people gave to other Black people {and I suppose to others}.


Azizi

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Severn
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:31 PM

I have memories of a friend of mine responding to a request for "Will The Circle Be Unbroken" that he didn't particularly want to fulfill (back when it was the equivalent of Rocky Top, Free Bird" or "Barrett's") by singing "I was standing on the corner when I heard my bulldog bark....." to that venerable tune, and damned if it didn't work!


Severn

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Severn
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:18 PM

A forerunner to the Lloyd Price piano based New Orleans version of "Stagger Lee" was a hit 78 on Lew Chudd's Imperial label (Imperial 5068) in 1950 by Archibald (real name-Leon T. Gross, 1912-1973)."Stack-A-Lee" was his only major hit, reaching #10 on the national R&B charts, but due to illness and a dispute with the musician's union, and a failure to tour, he never duplicated his success. He never recorded again after 1952, even when approached by such people as Dr. John, and played for years in Crescent City bars a bitter man over his experiences.

"Stack-A-Lee Pts. 1&2" can be heard on the EMI/Capital 4CD box set (E2-37350) and his entire Imperial output (prod. by Dave Bartholemew) can be heard on another 4CD box set on the English Proper label (Properbox 28).

Anyway, it was the first large scale hit of the song.


Severn

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 06:52 PM

Randall Roberts, writing for the Riverfront Times, the local entertainment paper in St Louis, adds more specifics to the origin story.

Stagger Lee shot Billy Lyons, Eleventh Street and Convention Plaza

"On Christmas night 110 years ago at Bill Curtis' Saloon, a pimp named 'Stack' Lee Shelton shot Billy Lyons. The fight began when Lee and Lyons, both drunk,started arguing over politics. Shelton grabbed Lyons' derby and smashed it. Billy snatched Sheltons' hat and demanded restitution. Shelton pulled out his .44. 'Give me my hat, Nigger!' he screamed, befotre gunning down Billy Lyons. He picked up his hat and walked out.
Within ten years, the crime evolved into one of the most recorded songs in history. 'Stack' has morphed into 'Stagger' and the song became 'Stagger Lee'. Over the course of the next century, the murder became an archetypal legend.
The saloon and its building have long since vanished, but the spot, a block west of the Edward Jones Dome, still endures its share of turmoil; the St Louis School Board owns the building. In fact, the side walk where Stagger pulled the trigger is stained with a splotch of red paint...or is it blood?
Lee lived just down the street, at 911 Tucker. Noted photographer Drew Wojchik now owns the building, and he has transformed the former brothel into an art gallery."

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:40 PM

Stagger Lee was responsible for the San Francisco earthquake.

He went into a bar for a drink. The bartender refused to serve him without seeing his money. Stagolee got mad, grabbed hold of the bar and tore it down. All over town, buildings collapsed, and a cloud of dust and smoke rose in the air. What happened was that when Stagolee wrenched out the bar, he pulled out the pipes. Since all the water pipes in town were connected, he tore them out too, causing the general disaster. (p. 178)

From Harold Courlander, 1963, "Negro Folk Music, U. S. A.," Columbia University Press.

Oh, dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come.
When Billy Lyons was pleading for his life, saying he had three little children, Stagolee responded (reliable sources):
Damn your little children,
Damn your lovin' wife.
You stole my good old Stetson hat,
An' now I'm goin' to have your life.

op. cit.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: PoppaGator
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 05:19 PM

Referring back to the original query, from October '97:

The melody common to most of the "folk-music" Stagger Lees, Stack-O-Lees, etc., is markedly different from that used on the Lloyd Price recording. His hit record used a version well-known in the New Orleans boogie-woogie piano tradition, which is markedly different from most of the folk-guitar versions which are so similar to each other (melodically if not lyrically), such as John Hurt's, Taj Mahal's etc.

Also: I've heard lots of folks hereabouts use the term "Stagger Lee" in reference to stumbling drunkards reeling and staggering down the street. Obviously not the original meaning, if you believe even half the research about the incorrigible "bad man," but an interesting contemporary reinterpretation.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 04:11 PM

KBR, that sounds like the Grateful Dead (Robert Hunter)'s version, especially the Christmas reference to start it off.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 09:46 PM

Hey, GUEST, it's been a year, but...

yes, Woody sang and recorded Stagolee.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jul 04 - 07:37 PM

While I really enjoy the origins of the lyrics, I think we should all just enjoy the song, what ever your afovorite version would be.

Subject: RE: Origins: Stagger Lee
From: kbr
Date: 06 May 04 - 05:58 AM

Hi, all.

This is intriguing. I am curently looking for the words of a version that I remember from the UK skiffle days, as sung by... (Damn! Another 'senior moment'). Anyway, this version went like:

"It was on Christmas morning,
The time was round about ten,
When Staggerlee shot Billy Lyons,
And landed in the Jefferson pen.

Billy Lyon's old woman,
She was a regular sinner,
She was home that Christmas morning,
Cooking Billy's dinner.

When a messenger boy came to the window,
And knocked upon the door,
He said your man is lying there,
Dead upon the bar-room floor..."

And that's about all I can (coherently) remember; there's more about appealing to the jury to "let Staggerlee go" because of his "poor old aged mammy..." and "Sherrif, oh, sherrif, I just can't sleep... Cos the ghost of Billy Lyons has found my head a place to weep..."

Is this familiar to anyone?

kbr

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 11:08 AM

Still having trouble with error 404. Sometimes now I can't get in to Mudcat at all.

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 11:04 AM

Oh, well- the Floyd story was at http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/3935.

The Woody Guthrie song is at http://www.geocities.com/nashville/3448/pretty.html
Pretty Boy

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 10:57 AM

I remember Pretty Boy Floyd from my boyhood- I was about 10 years old when he was killed. He was white, a young punk of no merit, son of dirt-poor farmer parents. He worked for bootleggers in Kansas City, robbed banks, and killed a number of innocent people.
This took place during the worst of the Depression, the dirty Thirties. He was a sort of folk hero to poor sharecroppers and farmers, because robbing banks was robbing the rich. He sometimes took refuge on po' white farms.

The Seeger version in the DT and the Woody Guthrie original are nonsense, an attempt to make a hero out of a bank-robbing killer who sometimes passed out money to people who hid him. Story at
Pretty Boy

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 26 Oct 03 - 10:04 AM

Guthrie's Pretty Boy Floyd seems to owe something to Stakolee .Is there a record of Woody singing the song?

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Nerd
Date: 25 Oct 03 - 01:48 PM

Stackolee was based on a man whose last name was Lee, and whose nickname was Stag or Stack. The book Stagolee Shot Billy makes that abundantly clear. It documents the fight (which took place in St. Louis, not Memphis or New Orleans) and the case at good length. At the same time, there was a Mississippi riverboat called Stack o lee which I believe was owned by another Lee family, though I forget the details. That's how Stag Lee became Stackolee to people who didn't know him.

There's little room in there for a West African demon, but West African Aesthetics may inform the structure of the Blues Ballads about Stackolee, as many of them resemble praise songs (vignettes about a powerful man, and his qualities described, not in any particular order) rather than Euro-American ballads (linear narrative). This is speculative, but some scholars have made this argument about African America Badman and Hero ballads generally.

One thing that did happen was that characters like Stackolee and Railroad Bill were ascribed supernatural powers. This can be traced to the African American magical tradition of Hoodoo, which does go back to African (Yoruba and Congo) roots. So some characteristics associated with West African supernatural powers may have crept into the story sometimes. I'd recommend John Roberts's book From Trickster to Badman on this. (That's John Roberts the African-American folklorist and past president of the American Folklore Society, not John Roberts the English Folksinger!)

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 04:15 PM

Guest- pure fakelore.

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 24 Oct 03 - 11:03 AM

I read once that Stackolee was based on a West African demon/god of fire with a similar sounding name. Anybody know anything about that?

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: jaze
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 10:10 AM

The Youngbloods with Jesse Colin Young did a version of this song on an early lp. I just remember it was different from the MJH version. Now I'm gonna have to go and try and find that lp....

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 12:48 AM

I remember the baggy pants, tight at the ankles, worn by Latinos back in the 1940s (or was it 1950s?). Was it called a zoot suit? Nerd, I agree, status symbols are involved.

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 12:43 AM

Interesting review. I'd still disagree on many points, but the reviewer is right that Brown's interpretations are limp, and that he blows up the importance of Stagolee somewhat. For example, Brown claims that hip-hop culture's use of consumption practices as a status symbol (wearing certain brands of clothes, for example) is a result of Stagolee doing so. But obviously, the fact is that BOTH Stagolee AND hip-hop culture are actually reflecting the lives of real black people, for whom clothes are and have been status symbols; it's not a case of hip-hop imitating the blues, but of art imitating life.

That said, despite what the author of the review may think, those baggy pants and brand names really WERE about status, however they might have originated in prisoners' culture or the necessity of wearing clothes designed for whites. So both guys get some things right and others wrong, methinks... and the book is still worth a read.

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 10:41 PM

I've read the book, and I'd say Stagolee still has great relevance. Certainly the author thinks so!

It's very good on the history, not so great on the interpretation. In other words, he shows a lot about who the original person was on whom the song is based, and makes a very convincing case, but he could have developed the analysis more in terms of what the song means to people. Still, by and large it was a good, groundbreaking book.

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 10:05 PM

NY Times book review, "Stagolee Shot Billy." Stagolee has little relevance to the African-American of today.

Stagolee and gangsta

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Sam L
Date: 01 Mar 03 - 12:19 AM

God'll take care of your three little children
and I'll take care of your wife
you done stole my stetson hat
and I'm bound to take your life.


I heard that he was a bad man.

Subject: Lyr Add: STAGOLEE (from Odum and Johnson)
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 28 Feb 03 - 09:37 PM

Lots of stories about Stackolee, few of which agree on details. The following is quoted from The traditional Ballad Index, California State Univ. Fresno:
"On Dec. 29, 1895, William Lyons (levee hand) and Lee Sheldon (coach driver nicknamed "Stag" Lee) were drinking at a tevern in St Louis, MO. A political discussion began; in the heat of the argument Lyons knocked off Sheldon's hat and Sheldon promptly pulled a pistol and shot him dead. He was arrested and tried; the first trial ended in a hung jury, but he was convicted in a second trial and served time in prison, dying in 1916.
A St. Louis judge who has researched the case suggests that Sheldon had received a spell from a hoodoo woman, giving him exceptional sexual potency. The talisman for that spell was his hat, so knocking it from his head was no ordinary insult..-PJS" No reference in given.

In one of the posts above, versions found by Odum are mentioned.

Lyr. Add: STAGOLEE

Stagolee, Stagolee, what's dat in you' grip?
Nothin' but my Sunday clothes, I'm goin' to take a trip.
Oh, dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come.

Stagolee, Stagolee, where you been so long?
I been out on de battle fiel' shootin' an' havin' fun.
Oh, dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come.

Stagolee was a bully man, an' ev'ybody knowed,
When dey seed Stagolee comin' to give Stagolee de road.
Oh, dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come.

Stagolee started out, he give his wife his han';
"Goodbye darlin', I'm goin' to kill a man.
Oh, dat man, etc.

Stagolee killed a man and laid him on de flo'.
What's dat he kill him wid? Dat same ole fohty-fo'.
Oh, dat man, etc.

Stagolee killed a man an' laid him on his side,
What's dat he kill him wid? Dat same ole fohty-five.
Oh, dat man, etc.

Out of house an' down de street Stagolee did run,
In his hand he held a great big smok'n' gun.
Oh, dat man, etc.

Stagolee, Stagolee, I'll tell you what I'll do;
If you'll git me out'n dis trouble I'll do as much for you.
Oh, dat man, etc.

Ain't it a pity, ain't it a shame?
Stagolee was shot, but he don't want no name.
Oh, dat man, etc.

Stagolee, Stagolee, look what you done done:
Killed de best ole citerzen; now you'll have to be hung.
Oh, dat man, etc.

Stagolee cried to de jury, "Please don't take my life.
I have only three little children an' one little lovin' wife."
Oh, dat man, bad man, Stagolee done come.

Odum and Johnson, 1925 (Negro Press reprint of 1968), "The Negro and His Songs," pp. 196-198. See Brian Hoskin post, above, for comments by Odum.

Some versions borrow verses from Frankie and Albert (Johnny).

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Nathan Sarvis
Date: 09 Feb 99 - 03:55 PM

An interesting point, in the interview Murray links above,, Mississippi John Hurt insists that Stagger Lee was a white man.

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 09 Feb 99 - 03:33 AM

In 'The Journal of American Folklore' Vol. XXIV July- Sept 1911, Howard W. Odum, in an article entitled 'Folk-Song and Folk-Poetry as Found in the Secular Songs of the Southern Negroes', prints two versions of Stagolee which he collected. Between the versions he writes:

"The above version is usually sung in Mississippi, Louisiana, and Tennessee, though it is known in Alabama and Georgia, besides being sung by the negro vagrants all over the country."

Sorry, but I haven't time to print them out just at the moment.

Brian

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From: Art Thieme
Date: 09 Feb 99 - 02:13 AM

I've always heard that the man's name was simply LEE and he was a STACKER OF COTTON BALES on the docks of New Orleans---therefore STACKERLEE.

Art

Subject: RE: Stagger Lee
From:
Date: 08 Feb 99 - 05:37 AM

There is an interview with Mississippi John Hurt in which he discusses Stagger Lee. He puts him in the company of Jessie James.

Click here to read the interview.

Murray