Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 12:13 PM

Actually I would suggest the more addictive a drug is, the more dangerous to society it is when we make it profitable to sell it, by making it illegal and so sending the price sky-high. If something isn't really addictive, when it's banned people swear a bit, and do without. But if you're really addicted to something, obtaining it regardless becomes a priority.

Maybe if they took the profit out of selling drugs, one effect might be that more people used them, or rather, they might use a wider variety of drugs than they do at present, when most people stick to the currently legal ones such as alcohol, nicotine and caffeine. However, even if there was wider drug use, it would be probably be a great less harmful to society than the present situation, since no one would need to steal to obtain them, and no one could make a massive profit by encouraging others to buy them.

I'm sure that when prohibition of alcohol in the States was abandoned the amount of social drinking rose - but I doubt if the amount of problem drinking rose proportionately.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: smallpiper
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 11:00 AM

Thank you Peg. However there is a great debate about the addicivness of marijuana. The stuff that is about today contains a hell of a lot more of the active ingredient than the stuff I smoked in the 70's (in some cases as much as 75% more)it has a lot more carcenogenous material in it and has demonstrative long term psychological side effects and it has been geneticaly modified. But then again its non addicitive untill you meet those who are addicted on a psychological level. It really just depends on what reports you read. As for prisons I have known users who have entered prison on possession (blow) charges and have come out with a raving H addiction. I have also known H adicts who have come out clean and stayed clean. A lot of it is down to the individual and not the system (although they could be a lot more proactive in supporting individuals).

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Peg
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 10:29 AM

good suggestion there smallpiper.

I disagree that it is not the drugs themselves that are the   problem. That is like saying a slow-loading   musket is virtually the same as a semi-automatic machine gun.

Marijuana is not addictive, nor is hash, nor apparently is ecstasy or psilocybin mushroms or LSD. Cocaine and heroin and Oxycontin and morphine and Demerol are highly addictive, as are many ampetamines. Notice there are some legal drugs mentioned in there. People steal to support addictive drug habits. Rarely does anyone resort to theft to fulfill a desire to smoke pot or take ecstasy (I am not supporting ecstasy use, BTW; I understand the "new" pill form   can be very dangerous and I always advise my students not to do it). I am not saying use of the psychotropic or hallucinogenic drugs is not without problems or dangers...but we need to be clear that specific substances have their diferences, and the economics, crime statistics and psychopathology they engender are all very different.

Ever talk to people who have been addicted to prescription pain killers for years? They slur their words, blank out half the time, and look like hell; they usually are unemployed or on disability. Soem have legitimate health problems but most of them are unwilling to explore alternative methods for addressing their chronic pain issues (like acupuncture, changes in diet/lifestyle, physical therapy, stress management, etc.) because they are   addicted and it's much easier to pop a pill than to do something pro-active (I think this is true in some cases of people who rely on mood enhancers or anti-depressants, though also agree these drugs help a great many people). Meanwhile, many people I know who smoke marijuana or hashish daily are high-functioning members of society (albeit prone to watch TV or eat juink food late at night but that is true of non drug users as well).

The way the prison system deals with addicts is atrocious. Apparently it is very easy to obtain drugs in prison. Rehabilitation is almost nil. Those incarcerated on possession charges who are users as opposed to dealers usually get right back into the lifestyle once they get out.

We have become a very addictive society; food, drugs, sex, spending, alcohol, cigarettes, violence, technology, and bad behavior. Part of it seems to be that we need a quick fix for everything (no pun intended). The pharmaceutical industry surely shoulders blame here but I don't see them losing any money; nor do I see them focusing on cures for devastating diseases that only affect Third World countries: much more profitable to keep inventing subtle pills that make disgruntled American Yuppies with empty lives feel better. The new trend will be "performance enhancing" drugs.

Gotta   stop now this is too depressing

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: smallpiper
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 09:45 AM

Actually H is inexpensive. The problem in usage comes because of the way that it is cut (mixed with outher substances) - the poorer the quality the more you need to get the same high or in the case of most addicts to feel normal, therefore the more cash you need to raise to fund your habit. Accidental overdoses occur when supplies of unusual purity hit the streets. This is often (but not always) caused (ironically) by police action, people need to get rid of their supplies quickly so they don't cut it as much and the result is obvious to all and tradgic for many.

There are also a lot of myths about drugs and crime. According to an article in "Monkey" magazine (a self help mag produced by users and ex-users for users and ex-users in the UK), they used the UK Gov's own stats on drug use and crime in producing the article. They claim that; if the amount of crime being blamed on H users (not just adicts) was actually carried out by said users then there would be no H users because they would be to busy committing crimes to have any time left to use H.

If you really want to help drug users you can do so by talking to them and find out what it is they want, as an alternative to their current lifestyles, as an alternative to current treatments and then empower them to do something about it. But without the will from the powers that be to support any kind of action then you're screwed before you start.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 08:25 AM

Yes I agree absolutely Heroin is expensive because it's illegal.
The raw material costs pennies.

PP

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 08:09 AM

Drugs and crime are related all right - and it is true enough that some part of that is because drug use in itself can in some cases make people more likely to commit some kind of crime (over and above drug use itself where this is illegal). This applies to legal drugs as well, most especially alcohol.

But prohibition njust diesn't work - it makes things far far worse.

The much more significant source of the link between drugs and crime is that prohibition directly encourages crime. Selling illegal drugs involves an enormous profit, and buying them requires an enormous expenditure, money which is obtained by crime of various kinds, and by selling on drugs and encouraging others to use them.

Take the money out of it, and you don't solve all the problems, but you would eliminate many of them, and get rid of the direct link between drug use and criminal activities.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 08:07 AM

Human beings have been taking psychoactive substances for maybe 100 millennia. Almost all cultures use these substances and many religious and cultural ideas came about through their use.
Having said that these drugs were general used to intensify social participation and facilitate changes in status (rights of passage).
As has been pointed out some drug use today in the west is as a form of escape.
This is in direct response to the increasing inappropriate individualism (Americanisation) pushed on us by politicians and corporate gangs.
As our glorious leader once said "there is no such thing as society, only families and individuals"
The problem for Society in general is that street heroine is relatively expensive; this means that those addicted must find large amounts of money to get a fix. They do this by steeling and dealing.
To my mind the way to deal with this is to give addicts BP Heroin by prescription, thus removing them as a source of revenue for the dealers and cutting crime at the same time.
Most Heroin addicts (that survive) eventually give up.
As to the bigger picture of giving people a reason to get up every morning and joyously take part in a social world where everyone realises their interdependence, I'm not sure.
I fear that things are going to get a lot worse before they get better.
I'll do what I can.
But
" It's never been my duty to remake the world at large, nor is it my intention to sound a battle charge."

All the best PP

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 06:50 AM

John, just to clarify, I don't think there is a real drug problem in our village. Cromer is supposed to have quite a few problems though.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 12:40 AM

I have a dear friend.

In our younger years we used to ramble.

Meeting a degenerate, begger, crack-head, begging for money.... he would sometimes pause....assess the situation....contemplate ...and then pull-out a 20, 50, or 100 from his wallet.

I asked him..."Why the hesitation?"

He replied, "I need to assess the situation, and location, and earning-potential pathos of this person. As a good steward of the resources allocated to me....I must determine the minimal amount it will take to allow this person to OD (overdose) and thereby rid society of another leach upon its circulatory system....100 today....may be compounded into tens-of-thousands...perhaps millions in the overall "big-picture-of-society."

I took his philosophy to heart and practice it...to this day.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Some in society only need the smallest of nudges - to make the RIGHT decision.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 03 - 12:02 AM

And get rid of the "War" on drugs...that rhetoric alone is enough to cause failure...imagine it is really declaring war on our own citizens who need rehabilitation which teaches them how to cope, etc.

Cattail said, Near my home, the kids come home from school and
go straight back out on the street to play, back in to eat, and
back out again until darkness falls. Do these parents know they've
got kids?

My husband and his siblings did that in all of their growing up years, as did I, but we had at least one parent at home and we were expected to take care of chores, homework, etc. I guess my point is, it wasn't harmful for us to go out and play, come in and eat, then go out to play, again, but there were definite differences compared to what a lot of kids have today.

It would help if the conservatives in government would recognise parenthood as a legitimate occupation and not make parents feel worthless for wanting to stay home or guilty for having to work to support their families. Imagine if we spent money on "wages" for at least one parent in each household with young children, to be able to stay home with them, instilling basic values, nurturing good judgement and teaching them how to cope. A wise investment, imo, but our government (USA) would rather throw money away on failed capitalists ventures, useless so-called wars, and more prisons...no pre-emptive, positive spending on our children and their families for the good ol' USA!

kat

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: mg
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 11:05 PM

Easy to recommend, admittedly not as easy to execute, but if you want teenagers to not use drugs, not get pregnant, not drink, not smoke, etc...they have to be chaperoned. Plain and simple. And any 14 year old worth her salt is going to say but don't you trust me. Better have a good answer ready but chaperone anyway. I don't know up to what age but certainly through age 16....And insist on laws for vagrancy, loitering, truancy, breaking of curfews being written as fairly as possible and then enforced.

mg

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:53 PM

akenaton-not sure where you are, but if you are in UK, you will apreccite the problem, I reckon that most people here, just want to live a peaceful life, perhaps go to the pub once a week, and invite their mates round for a few cans once a week. I spoke to Jon & Pip Freeman at a festival , a couple of years ago, they told me that druggies are in their village!, as i said, i wou;d like to be able to invite my friends here for a drink and a sing once a month or whatever, BUT, how would i feel if there car was broken into by the druggies down the street?
A friends of mine and local Catter {Bassic], visited me recently, I said to him " have you left any valuables in your car?"
If so bring them in.
Also, Les from Hull came here recently,I gave him a lift to a festival [ les does not drive], he says " i coulf leave my cycle outside, chained to your fence?"
i said "no, you should bring it in. or they will nick it"
there is too many theifs here, and nost of tyhem are on drugs, if i hafd the money, i would move away from hull.john

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:35 PM

legalise pot...decriminalise hash..and lsd and mescaline...

shoot anyone who takes and deals crank, crack, coke and smack..

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:28 PM

Cattail-I agree with you, as i said, i work as a hot food delivery driver, one house we go to =" wayne, gerover ere", "why". "cos your fucking dinners reddy".As I am now, I am reasonably fit and healthy,
but I see gangs of 20-30 youths hanging around my local supermarket, this does not particularly bother me, but i know for a fact , if i wee 70 or 90 years old, i would probably be scared to leave the house!
I really dont know the answer to this, if i had the money i would livr in quiet villsage in the country.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:24 PM

Thanks for that John. I enjoy your comical posts and its nice to see your serious side.The problem is that many of the addicts will ask you "What is there to be rehabilitated for"..Best wishes Alex

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:17 PM

Not sure about other cities, but drugs are a big problem in Hull.
I used to think we should legalise the whole lot, and let the druggies get on with it and do what they like, now I'm not so sure.
It is estimated that 70-80 percent of the street crime in Hull is drugs related, ie burgalry, robbery, prostituition, shoplifting, cheque-book fraud etc], we often se in Hull, car steroes been offered for sale for £10 or £20 pound, when theyb cost £100 pounds new.
I work as a pizza delivery driver in central Hull, and oftem pass, the prostitutes, they look skinny and ill, I have to afdmit thst whilst they look like " shitty people", you can't help but feel sorry for them, [they are sleeping with anyone, who could have aids or hiv, or god knows what, just so they can get a bit of dope or crack or whatever they are on]!
I think there should be more drugs awareness programmes, I read recantly [last year i think], that a little kid in yorkshire , not sure where [ sheffield or doncaster]?, died of a drug overdose at only 10 years old!, this is absolutely disgusting!, I am not a parent [things did'nt work out with my girlfend, otherwise we might have had kids by now], I'm often glad , that i am single with no kids, as i can do what i like, ie [if i fancy touring rounsd afica, i can do], I often wonder what is going on, many people dont seem to give a shit about each othr, - and only think of themselves.
A couple of years ago English opera was given £78 and a half milllion pounds, i wonder how much was given to drug rehabhilatation?
[proibly not much, if any].
The whole system is a big load of shit.john

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:13 PM

Theres a lot of truth in your words Art..Here in UK it seem that cost is stopping the problem being dealt with(heroin on prescription,with proper supervision).But politicians can always find the money to wage war..

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:06 PM

Heroin is indeed a problem here in North-Central Illinois (LaSalle County). It never was before the last couple of years, but it sure is now. But it's right in keeping with the realities of the area. This is the county with the highest per-capita rate of alcoholism in the entire United States. Our congressional representatives' (Mautino) family business is liquor and beer distrobution. The gangs are here now too, and this drug --- heroin---one of many --- came with them as surely a greed comes with corporations. Until we drop the puritanical ethic that tells us the punitive answer is the correct one, and rehabilitation stays so very far down on the priority list, we will continue to create and perpetuate this problem for ourselves. After all, it's good for the economy. (facetious)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:04 PM

Amos ..In a way i am saying that we should all be blamed.Firstly for allowing this situation to come about ,and secondly for ignoring it ,even when its becomming more and more obvious.I dont think the politicians can be left to deal with this most important of problems.They just cant be trusted...This seems to be a situation that requires a community solution....Alex

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Cattail
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:03 PM

Putting my (unwanted) 00.02p worth in. I think that the drugs,
(and drink) problem stems in part from the relaxed attitudes to
general discipline in the home, if parents can't be bothered
to teach their kids the rights and wrongs of life, and a great
many of them don't, then how are they to know when they come up
against things like these.

I see a lot of children, both outside my own home, and at my
place of work. Near my home, the kids come home from school and
go straight back out on the street to play, back in to eat, and
back out again until darkness falls. Do these parents know they've
got kids?

At my place of work, you can tell the undisciplined ones a mile
off, they are the ones who never shut up, always shouting, running
about aimlessly, just being a general nuisance.

Yes, I guess it IS our fault, we fail them through lack of attention
and the discipline which has been taken from us by (dare I say it)
"do gooders", we don't want to beat or chastise children without
cause, but a good slap on the legs, in the right place, never did
any child any harm.

In my own childhood I got a good few slaps for being naughty, that
was for the general run of the mill things, BUT there was always
a strap hanging in the pantry that you KNEW you would get if you
were really BBAAADD. (Yes I got it once or twice, mainly for
accidentally breaking windows with footballs).

But I had good parents, and a good childhood, we knew right from
wrong and it stayed with us, these things don't seem to apply today
mores the pity.

Sorry for the ramblings.

cheers

Cattail 0~

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 09:03 PM

Politicians?

Politicians are part of the problem, Ake. They promote an atmosphere where false communication is considered an acceptable substitute, and cheap token concepts allowed to serve as a replacement for meaning anything at all. The only thing I have ever seen pull someone off drugs or keep them from tipping into it if they are of the kind to get sucked in is personal, live and genuine communication of real thoughts. Not an art that many politicians are familiar with.

A

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 08:52 PM

Perhaps if the media could be persuaded to take a more adult stance on the drugs issue(not shock ...horror ...lock em up),we could get the population at large to except that this is a problem that concerns every one of us ,and maybe then the politicians would be forced to take REAL action ...Ake

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 08:49 PM

Ake,

Sorry it was not clear, but I really wasn't being sarcastic. Any individual can take on responsibility for the condition things are in. The way your question was posed it seemed you were asking whether individuals in the community should be blamed.

I think it would be a wonderful idea for someone or a small group to find some workable method or way of communicating or educating or detoxing other intervention that would effect a successful prevention or salvage for a small number of people from drug abuse; it could then become a grass roots methodology that circulated and grew by reason of its success. But the thing is these interventions are too often based on some sort of "should-y" prescriptive moralistic grounds, which of course prevents them from communicating very well wiith those who really most need to be reached.

A

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 08:21 PM

Art...The drug of choice seem to differ from place to place,but the use of hard drugs and herion in particular is rocketing in the small towns of Scotland,and the attitude of most people is "not our problem let the authorities deal with it".Its this attitude Im questioning.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Ely
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 08:16 PM

What about other drugs? The small Midwestern town where I attended college had a growing methamphetamine problem. At least, it appeared to be growing (maybe it was just becoming more obvious?). Most of the kids, though, were still clean (at least, as clean as people that age have ever been). I guess there's a new set of problems each time around that the previous generation didn't/couldn't forsee. I'm only 26 and, while I know there was a lot of drinking and drug use going on when I was in high school, it seems as though it's a lot worse now. I can't tell if it really is or if it's just that everyone is talking about it more.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 08:15 PM

I'm not denying that. And I suspect we might well agree about the roots of the problem, and the kind of things that would help eliominate or reduce it.

But whether it's our boozy sessions, or less legal substances, then or now, it's not the drugs themself that are the real problem, it's the way they get used, and the various way society deals with them.

And being full of hope and optimism didn't mean a lot of us weren't full of other stuff often enough.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: artbrooks
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 08:09 PM

Not that heroin use isn't a problem...it certainly is...but it doesn't seem to be a growing one. I don't know where you are, Akenaton, but the percentage of users in the US hasn't changed significantly in the last 20+ years. It was 1.3% in 1979, 1.2% in 2000 and 1.4% in 2002. On the other hand, cocaine use increased by 50% in the same period. (stats here)

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 07:47 PM

Mcgrath..I usually respect your views, but on this occasion I must differ.Theres a wide gap between our boozy sessions and the poor souls I see on the streets of our wee town,children with no future indeed...

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 07:41 PM

Amos....Your attempts at sarcasm are a bit out of place in this thread I think.   I was simply trying to point out that the present way of dealing with this problem...Imprisoning addicts ect ,dont seem to be working.Nor do the various programs like methadone substitute.Therefore I would like to see ordinary people address this problem which could perhaps put an end to our society ..

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 07:33 PM

"WE were full of hope and optimism."

And stoned a lot of the time too, of course.

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 07:25 PM

I very much agree with you Janie.I feel that as the generation which made a virtue of materialism,(the Thatcher -Reagan years),we have left our youth devoid of ideals or common humanity. I often contrast this with my own youth, which included the Folk Revival.WE were full of hope and optimism.   I think we are putting our heads in the sand over this dreadful problem,hoping it will go away instead of admitting we have failed our young people and trying to make things better.       Alex

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Amos
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 07:18 PM

Well surely, by omission -- no-one in your region has invented the activity that would successfully educate the youth or their parents. None of you has written the perfect book which transforms the culture and wakes up those whose lack of communication leads their young into desperation. None of you has founded the exact youth activity or center to disseminate exactly the write lessons in the actually effective way or figured out how to make a self-expanding circle of precision intervention by peers.

But you have to differentiate, when you are shopping for ashes and hair shirts, between those things that are within your sphere of influence and those things beyond it.

A

Subject: RE: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: Janie
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 07:05 PM

The past always bears some responsibilty for the shape of the present and the future. Always there are unintended consequences to the choices we make individually and culturally. (ex. the USA going into Iraq is to some degree an unintended consequence of the fall of the USSR.) Ultimately, each individual must be responsible for the choices they make.

Now, are we responsible for teaching our children how to make good choices? Definitely. Can we control the choices they make? No. Do we have to keep asking ourselves if we are to blame? Yes, to a certain extent I think we do. I think that questioning is what "wisdom" consists of.

Janie

Subject: Drugs menace ..Are we to blame?
From: akenaton
Date: 10 Aug 03 - 05:32 PM

I live a few miles from a small country town. Over the last five years i have become increasingly concerned about the numbers of young people appearing in the local Sherrif Court on herion related charges. The numbers of addicts on the street are also increasing. Until a few years ago this was not a problem in our area.
As the age of the people who post on Mudcat appears to range mainly between 40 and 60,I wonder if anyone shares my feeling, that we must shoulder much of the responsibility for the horror being inflicted on our children . Please give your thoughts on this . Ake..