BS: why do we need religion

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:41 PM

"... until you have made ALL the mistakes you came here to make this time!"

Make mistakes!? I don't make mistakes...I thought I made one once, but I was wrong.

*giggles from the material realm*

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:24 PM

"So that even athiests can have something to hate."

and what do NON-atheists hate?

gee, Stephen, I hope you don't take your comment very seriously..most atheists I know do NOT 'hate' religion, they merely dispute its claims. I don't like listening to the few that DO hate.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 07:54 AM

Here's an interesting view from Roy Hattersley

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,Stephen L. Rich
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 02:09 AM

Why do we need religion? So that even atiests can have something to hate.

Stephen Lee

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: SINSULL
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 09:57 PM

And the clickies below are (appropriately) Catholicism for Dummies and the Dark History of Religion, 7 Great Lies of Organized Religion. What say we read them both and report back?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,the Angels
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:18 PM

Careful, Bill...careful. Your "clinical death" may arrive sooner than you think! It's not good to get cheeky with God. (that's a joke, Bill...) We are keeping a close eye on you at all times, and will make sure you don't shuffle off this mortal coil until you have made ALL the mistakes you came here to make this time! (*much laughter here in the spiritual regions)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 08:06 PM

gee...are the Angels answering me collectively? Purty amazing! And if so, can we have one keep an eye on this place as a sort of "guardian"? We have a chimp named Chongo who helps a lot on some matters, but he don't get on every day.

you, know, those angelic expositions remind me of other things I've read recently...you Angels don't happen to visit Canada a lot, do you?

"...therefore you haven't seen one. Whether this will change depends entirely on you." hmmm...You mean, if I want to bad enuf, I can do like others and convince myself I see stuff? Yep...I'll agree that's prob'ly so! And when my 'clinical death' comes, whether temporary or permanent, I got a BIG list of stuff I'd rather see...*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,the Angels
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 06:30 PM

Bill, only a few people ever see us while they are still in the physical. Why? Well, there are a number of reasons.

Here are some...

Their attention is on other matters.

Their spiritual frequency is not high enough to perceive beyond a very limited spectrum of what is termed "visible light".

Their rigid belief systems censor their perceptions of reality. Children, for instance, are far more likely to see spiritual phenomena, because they haven't yet decided that they don't believe in such things (they haven't been told not to yet, in other words). Belief itself can grossly limit perception. Negative beliefs reduce one's ability to "see".

Angels will appear to people sometimes in moments of tremendous stress and/or great need. The stress itself proves sufficient to heighten perception, and the need may be there for an Angelic communication of some kind.

There has been no particular need for you to see an Angel lately...therefore you haven't seen one. Whether this will change depends entirely on you.

Many people do see Angels when leaving the body, at what is termed "clinical death". This may happen in your case. Let's wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:32 PM

BTW, Bono's answer is an almost word perfect copy of the arguement of theAlpha Course, which was argued in very similar language by C.S Lewis in his 'Mere Christianinty' in the 1940's, and almost certainly further back.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:11 PM

"Angels have..." which angels are those? I've not seen any.

All Drolizankers are inherently petulant, too! (maybe about dancing angels...)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 05:00 PM

Well, I do too, Frank. I don't refer to 'him' in the third person singular masculine, but I think the sense is the same.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:26 PM

Thanks Amos,

   I must say that it is also tiresome to see some of the people you talk about while knowing that I'm being grouped together with them because I'm a Christian so I can relate to what you say. There are a lot of people out there that are also Christian that do not necessarily speak for me!

   I probably jumped a little furthur down your throat than I should have. A little knee jerk reaction but as much as I try to stay away from threads with titles like these, I can't help myself and sometimes it gets to me. So, I appreciate your response.

   For what it's worth I don't feel like I have an imaginary friend and I certainly don't feel like I have a mental illness like another thread would have wanted us to believe. I have a belief in God and that I will be with him when he's ready for me to go there.


Frank

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 04:13 PM

Uh-huh. Okay, Bill. No problem.

As far as I'm concerned, Bill, any number of angels could dance on the head of a pin...

if they chose to. ;-) But why would they?

Angels have no physical dimensions of measurement, so it would be child's play.

It would be like saying: "How many thoughts or ideas can be placed on the head of a pin?" An infinite number, that's how many.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:58 PM

Well, Frank, I respect that, and I apologize for my offensive remarks. I hope you can appreciate, in turn, how wearisome it can become to be told about the nature of the Infinite by people whose spirituality is lacking in many other respects, including tolerance, compassion and a healthy reverence for individual freedom of insight.

My problem has never been with those who believe in God in the fullest and broadest sense, but rather those who would use the vocabulary of that belief (a bruised and abused vocabulary at that) to forward what are transparently small-minded human-only concerns, such as dictating what to eat and what small boys may or may not do with their penises, or undermining the grand and humane spirit of the United States Constitution with petty minded moralisms. To my mind, anyone who has touched the genuine spark of God in the smallest way, even for an instant, would immediately be relieved of such ire against other people's lives and choices, in a transport of deep compassion.

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 03:42 PM

There's a big difference in "invoking a higher being" and believing that a higher being has been there all along. I'm not thinking there is any point in starting a discussion on the existence of God but I don't think it's necessary to belittle those that do believe by implying that we've made him up for our own selfish reasons or to refer to him as our imaginary friends. Just my two cents...

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:41 PM

" If their beliefs aren't doing any harm to you or anyone else,"

well, Little Hawk, I see your irritation, but that's a big 'if'. Unfortunately, what some people believe makes a huge difference in how they act (i.e., vote, share, help, condemn, kill, support, allow, respect, hide, notice, ridicule, etc..etc...etc..)

We in the USA are about to get 2 new justices on our Supreme Court, and knowing what they believe can affect the very substance of our lives for generations.

Of course an abstract belief by a private citizen on some arcane metaphysical matter is probably not going to **directly** affect me, and I do not make my posts here with any notion or expectation of changing a mind about God, the nature of the Universe, or how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin......but there is a certain class of arguments and defenses OF various beliefs that is, in my opinion, inherently weak, misleading and therefore dangerous to rational behavior.

If you believe, abstractly, in a "zealous and strict God", I can shrug, but if you use that belief to vote for a politician who is going attempt to restrict my freedoms based on that type of God, I WILL comment on it! There is a continuum of the 'seriousness' of forms and degrees of belief vectors, and I may at some point note a bad argument, even when the immediate relevance of the issue is not obvious. Just as others have the right to express their opinions, I reserve the right to comment if I think those opinions are poorly expressed and inadequately defended!

There ARE fair and reasonable ways to express opinions that are totally different from mine...and indeed, in many cases, mine may turn out not to be the 'right' ones--- but when ideas and concepts and opinions are simply stated as if they are 'revealed truth' and not to be questioned, I cannot resist replying.

If one reads my posts regularly and carefully, they ought to see that my interest is not so much in "what to believe", but in "how to think ABOUT believing". Some issues, in principle, have no absolute answer that we are likely to arrive at anytime soon. This does not mean we should not speculate, discuss and theorize, as they are interesting and, potentially important.....which is all the more reason for being careful in the process of wondering.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

The world -- meaning, each individual in the world -- is quite capable of taking away its own sins and being free from their burden. But it requires a level of willingness to see them and acknowledge them.

Without that willingness, they just get dramatized.

Invoking some Higher Being to jump in and tell you it is okay is only a marginal remedy, because whiile it may relieve some short-term pressure, it leaves you with your self-defined gap between what you have done and what you are willing to face honestly.

Given clean hands born of that level of honesty, one is quite able to be the source of his own forgiveness in the world without any pointy hats being called into play.

I do apologize if this collides with anyone's articles of faith, but it is what I have seen in sixty years of observation of the ways of life on this eccentric ball.

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Pseudolus
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:02 PM

I like Bono...a lot! I'm not sure I've ever heard it said better.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 01:01 PM

Has anyone read this book: God without religion? Here are a couple of paragraphs from that link:

What led you to write God Without Religion?

After living as an ascetic for nearly two decades, engaging day and night in sophisticated methods of sense-introversion, and eventually coming to an inner understanding of how the human sense of identity manifests, I felt burdened by my discovery and needed to share what I'd found. I wanted to help people by demonstrating how the ideas of God introduced by organized religions have propagated divisiveness through split-level thinking like "us and them," "believer and infidel," and "saved and damned," leading to prejudice, violence, and ultimately, war. I wrote God Without Religion to introduce the idea of a universal God-a concept approached by past philosophers and mystics, but never explored comprehensively from the inside out.

- top -

Do you think the average American can relate to a book that challenges the religious bedrock on which this country was founded? Whom do you perceive to be your readership?

Americans are often taught that this country is founded on religious beliefs, but many Founding Fathers, like Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson, actually opposed organized belief systems. Jefferson said that he inwardly swore "eternal hostility" toward organized religions. Lincoln, widely considered the most spiritual United States president, admitted during his campaign that he'd never joined a church. God Without Religion seeks to inspire a personal involvement with a new idea of God and is intended for anyone interested in spiritual growth, regardless of religious, cultural, or political affiliation. Atheists, too, can benefit from this book.

It sounds interesting.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:51 PM

I just typed out a lengthy reply, sent it, and it vanished into thin air.

Great.

I like their music fine, to put it briefly, and I am unconcerned about what Bono believes. That's up to him.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:38 PM

So I take it you're not a big Bono/U2 fan? :^)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 12:31 PM

Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z-Z

To those who get their intellectual ego jollies trying to disprove everything they don't already believe in:

Look, why not just leave other people alone? If their beliefs aren't doing any harm to you or anyone else, what difference does it make whether or not they believe what YOU happen to believe?

Who put you in charge of the Universe, anyway?

My belief in karma, reincarnation, and a number of other spiritual things like that does no harm to anyone. Just go away if you don't like it. Bug somebody else. Screw off. Make like a tree and leave. Etc.

Can you tell I'm just a wee bit fed up with all this endless shit this morning?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: John Hardly
Date: 12 Sep 05 - 11:30 AM

"...The interviewer, Mr. Assayas, begins by asking Bono, Doesn't he think "appalling things" happen when people become religious? Bono counters, "It's a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the Universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between Grace and Karma."

The interviewer asks, What's that? "At the center of all religions is the idea of Karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you: an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics—in physical laws—every action is met by an equal or an opposite one," explains Bono. "And yet, along comes this idea called Grace to upend all that. . . . Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I've done a lot of stupid stuff."

The interviewer asks, Like what? "That's between me and God. But I'd be in big trouble if Karma was going to finally be my judge," says Bono. "It doesn't excuse my mistakes, but I'm holding out for Grace. I'm holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the Cross, because I know who I am, and I hope I don't have to depend on my own religiosity."

Then the interviewer marvels, "The Son of God who takes away the sins of the world. I wish I could believe in that."

"The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world, so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death," replies Bono. "It's not our own good works that get us through the gates of Heaven."

The interviewer marvels some more: "That's a great idea, no denying it. Such great hope is wonderful, even though it's close to lunacy, in my view. Christ has His rank among the world's great thinkers. But Son of God, isn't that farfetched?"

Bono comes back, "Look, the secular response to the Christ story always goes like this: He was a great prophet, obviously a very interesting guy, had a lot to say along the lines of other great prophets, be they Elijah, Muhammad, Buddha, or Confucius. But actually Christ doesn't allow you that. He doesn't let you off that hook. Christ says, No. I'm not saying I'm a teacher, don't call me teacher. I'm not saying I'm a prophet. I'm saying: 'I'm the Messiah.' I'm saying: 'I am God incarnate.' . . . So what you're left with is either Christ was who He said He was—the Messiah—or a complete nutcase. . . . The idea that the entire course of civilization for over half of the globe could have its fate changed and turned upside-down by a nutcase, for me that's farfetched."

What is most interesting in this exchange is the reaction of the interviewer. This hip rock journalist starts by scorning what he thinks is Christianity. But it is as if he had never heard of grace, the atonement, the deity of Christ, the gospel. And he probably hadn't. But when he hears what Christianity is actually all about, he is amazed.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:23 PM

Wisely said, John Hardly.

I think despite the many wonders of advancement made into analyzing which areas light up when and how, and into biochemistry, and into emerging systems and the nature of complexity, we STILL cannot explain the simple miracle of a truly intended "Hello".

There is still more to the universe than all our philosophy to date.

Just ask Little Hawk! :)

A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 10:46 PM

We don't "need" it. But it might represent objective truth -- maybe not all in one neat package, maybe not any one religion alone.

The "need" is to understand our world without dismissing what we don't understand. Some would like to believe that religion is the avoidance of facing what we don't understand. That may be so. It certainly would appera that way in some cases.

But it might also be that dismissing all religion on the basis of either one religion's weakness to address mysteries that matter to one, or on the basis that one religion is the same as any other, is faulty logic.

It's like looking at asprin's ineffectiveness on cancer and concluding, "why do we need medicine?"

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 07:44 PM

What we all need is merely this: something to believe in.

It may or may not fall within the category termed "religion".

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:18 AM

We need religion because:

(a) We're all scared about the big unknown DEATH.

(b) Our complicated brain chemistry plays all sorts of strange tricks on us.

(c) We're all subject to random events which we can't control.

Long ago some genius realised that he/she could pretend to intercede, on our behalf, with some supernatural being(s)who 'really' controlled these things. This genius could then rake off more than his/her fair share of his/her society's surplus wealth without actually doing very much. Hence 'Organised Religion' was born.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:12 AM

Why Religion?

Get a copy of "Salmon Of Doubt"... the poshumous Douglas Adams book, and read the chapter entitled "Is There An Artificial God" for what I think has to be one of the best answers to the question....

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 10:58 AM

100.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:57 AM

BTW,

the correct opening words for repeated information are:

you may have missed this (copyright: Shambles)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:52 AM

This demonstrates the wisdom of closing BS threads after a certain time:

Imagine Amos would have been able to resurrect all threads into which the little quote seems to fit...

Now where did I read recently that skeptical quote about...I could insert it in all threads about...

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 11:02 PM

Sorry, Jerry. I forgot I had posted it to the first thread.

I think it has a certain telling depth to it, and is often true, but not in all cases.

Abe, I am sure I don't know what you are on about, mate, but if you hang around I would be willing to hear about it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: *daylia*
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:45 PM

Well, acts of God do benefit insurance companies.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:38 PM

threads are never truly 'dead' around here..*grin*...they merely hibernate, then rise like Zombies to walk again!

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: GUEST,ABE
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:24 PM

Good Grief! Reviving a thread almost 6 months dead?

Amos, someone needs to get a life and it appears you are it!
I am new here but have seen enough - I will also seek a life elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:18 PM

oh, my! Gesticulating in public!

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:03 PM

LH waving his arms...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 08:01 PM

ummmm...cute...but not very profound

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:49 PM

So Amos... wots with ressurecting dead anti-religion threads? I was enjoying the lack of anti-religion, anti-religious right (not being one, myself) and anti-Republican (not one of them, either) threads   :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: bobad
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:39 PM

To provide a rationale to kill people?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:36 PM

Hey, I just read that on a different thread.

Kinda begs the question...

Why not cut out the middle man? Why give Campbell $.02 for something that isn't his?

Who do you like better -- Carl Jung or Neil Young?

...and if Neil is Young, did that make him too old to ride with Jesse James and the Youngers?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 07:24 PM

RELIGION

Religion is a defense against having a religious experience.

             Joseph Campbell quoting Carl Jung
                        The Power of Myth

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 07:45 PM

"Money is a made-up thing. People created it. It's a totally artificial idea. To kill people over a completely artificial, made-up thing sounds like a very primitive religion to me...and primitive religions are usually quick to sanction violence. "
Actually, sounds like ANY religion to me, so we're almost in complete agreement!

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:31 PM

to "Colonel Bogey March"

"Physics is what we learned in class.
Einstein said 'En-er-gy- is mass.
Newton is high-fa-lutin'-
And Pacsal's a rascal...so's Boyle"

"Trolley, he made the Trolley car,
Leyden, he made the Leyden jar-
Curie rides in a surrey-
And Diesel's a weasel...so's Boyle"

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:16 PM

Well said! Hear! Hear!

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:13 PM

Oh, man! You don't like Pascal?! Dang, another scientific theory shot through the heart. Who you gonna believe in matters of religion, if not a scientist?

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:12 PM

If you think the arm-waving is bad, Amos, you oughta see how I keep darting my tongue in and out...and that facial twitch! Oy! I oughta see if I can get a job as a Reality TV show host, and make big bucks. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Amos
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 05:08 PM

LH:

You-all better slow down waving your arms when you type or you gonna end up up a tree and no way to get down, dude!!

Every assertion is not religious and every philosophy is not a religion. Atheism is a single tenet that states God (as envisioned by CHristians, or Hindus, or Janists or any religion that has one or more) does not exist.

This COULD be a religious statement but it isn't necessarily so,.

1. a subjective relationship to certain metaphysical, extramundane factors. A kind of experience accorded the highest value, regardless of its contents. The essence is the person's relationship to God or salvation. Jung called them psychotherapeutic systems and believed they contained, offered a gradiant for, and transformed instinctual (hence asceticism), nonpersonal energies, giving people a cultural counterpole to blind instinct, help through difficult transitional stages, and a sense of meaning. They also help separate the growing person from his parents. For Jung, the unconscious had a religious function, and religion rests on an instinctive basis. Different from creeds, which are codified and dogmatized versions of a religious experience. Creeds usually say they have THE truth and are a collective belief. For Jung, no contradiction existed between faith and knowledge because science has nothing to say about metaphysical events, and beliefs are psychological facts that need no proof.
www.tearsofllorona.com/jungdefs.html

2. (generic definition of): A means of getting in touch with and of attaining at-onement with "ultimate reality." In slightly different words, a religion is a system of symbols (e.g., words and gestures, stories and practices, objects and places) that functions religiously, namely, an ongoing system of symbols that participants use to draw near to, and come into right or appropriate relationship with, what they deem to be ultimate reality.
www.aar-site.org/syllabus/syllabi/c/cannon/r201glos.htm

3. Generally a belief in a deity and practice of worship, action, and/or thought related to that deity. Loosely, any specific system of code of ethics, values, and belief.
www.carm.org/atheism/terms.htm


A

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:59 PM

You got it, Blissfully Ignorant. :-) People are the problem, not religion. Fearful people. Yet some of the finest people I have ever known have been numbered in the ranks of both the religious and those who are termed "atheists"...

I was amused by the comment that "atheism is NOT a religion; if it were, we'd be tax-exempt."

Ha! Funny! Well, the reason we have taxes, I'd say, is that MONEY is a religion. Right now, the worship and pursuit of money is the most powerful organized religion on the face of the Earth, basically dominating and running virtually every society in existence. That's why it says on American money: "In God We Trust"

The money IS the God being referred to in that case. :-) A few people are willing to lie, cheat, and kill for the God of heaven...millions are willing to do it for money! Just ask Al Capone about that. Ask any thief or mugger or arms manufacturer.

Money is a made-up thing. People created it. It's a totally artificial idea. To kill people over a completely artificial, made-up thing sounds like a very primitive religion to me...and primitive religions are usually quick to sanction violence.

Subject: RE: BS: why do we need religion
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Mar 05 - 04:16 PM

very poetic. "Vacuums in the heart" may exist about a lot of things.........Pascal also suggested that one should believe in God because 'it's the safest bet'....a real deep thinker, that Pascal.