traditional singers: beards, & guinness?

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:01 PM

It's interesting that some singers deliberately shut their eyes as they believe it's traditional. Personally I prefer it when people leave their eyes open - I always do when singing. It seems a bit rude to me to shut your eyes, as if you can't stand looking at the audience.

As for the presence or absence of beards, long hair, baldness, and Guinness - yes, you do get plenty of all of these in folk clubs, but you also get plenty of people who are clean shaven, have short or medium length hair and drink other things (as for me, I prefer real ale given the choice, but I drink Guinness if there's no decent ale available, as I quite like the taste even though it's not "real" in the CAMRA sense. Sadly the "real" bottled Guinness of yesteryear is no longer available, at least in England).

Oh, and you forgot to mention the Arran sweaters ;-)

You seem to get more people wearing what might be described as "weird" clothes and funny hats, etc., at festivals, than in clubs. It seems people like to dress in "folkie" gear for these events.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: JohnB
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 11:08 AM

I've had a beard for the last 35 years or there about, so I'm not going to shave it off just to sing. I think the Guiness is a throw back to when the "Big 5" had control of the swill that was sold as beer back then. Guiness was at least consistent and once you develop the taste for it you are hooked. I do prefer to try any "REAL" ales that are on draught though "thank God for CAMRA".
I don't speak the last lines as I find it a bit of an affectation, I do however on occassion toast the writer of the song at the end, as in "Scowie". I often find I have to close my eyes to concentrate on the words and the song in the hope of not screwing it up.
I only sing in a tuxedo whenI sing with our local community choir.
I think your description fits more of the so called "revivalist" class of singers than the 20th century source singers.
JohnB

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 09:12 AM

With that nickname have you not something better to do?

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:59 AM

That makes it even more confusing. I've got a walk on part. Well, it's more in the nature of a speaking extra these days and I neither have a beard nor am I much of a Guinness drinker. Give me a pint of real ale any day.

weelittledrummer. "Fred I don't think he was talking about the main players - just us lot with the walk on parts"

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Sean 'Shagger' Mc Ginn
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:57 AM

Thanks all of you who has replied to my query. I understand that not all traditional singers are as I have described in my opening post but you must admit that a huge percentage are like that. I recently went along to a singing weekend and almost every person who sang a traditional song had either a beard (ranging from a few back combed hairs to a full beard) had a pint of guinness in his hand (we are still talking about men only) and almost all sang with their eyes shut. I asked one young man why he sang with his eyes closed and he replied 'everyone does it, it's traditional'
I don't know much about English traditional singers, are they similar to Irish (north and south) I am pretty ignorant in this but have now become interested in the singing of these old songs. I just wanted to know, would I be taken serious if I was to learn a song and sing it at one of these gatherings? I have little hair, no beard and I drink red wine!
Another thing that has put me off about these 'traditional singers' is, it seems like a closed shop! If you are not in the 'KNOW' you haven't a chance to find where the elite singing sessions are being held.
eg:I attended the All Ireland Fleadh last weekend and only the well known (big name singers) seemed to get asked to sing.
Am I wasting my time trying to get accepted and should I sing with my eyes closed and grow a beard if it would help.

Thanks    Shagger Mc Gin

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 07:18 AM

Most people have never seen John Warner without his beard. It's part of his image. Unfortunately with the passing of time the colour has graduated from black to bits of grey to almost white, and little children tend to call out things like "Mummy there's Santa Claus!" He doesn't feel very flattered by the comparison, and has been heard to say "No - HE looks like ME."

He felt so strongly about this that he actually wrote a song about it, and it was this song that the Roaring Forties were performing when the photo was taken.


BEARD PROTEST SONG

John Warner - 2 May 2004

I protest! Surely my hirsute features cannot be sufficient cause,
For all the kids in Sydney to call me "Santa Claus"

I don't look a bit like Santa Claus,
My verdict is official,
If the beard on me is all you see,
Then your look's too superficial,
There's Karl Marx and Henry Parkes,
With whom I could be compared,
But its plain to see that you can't see me,
If you just see the big, white beard.

We don't judge folks by the slant of their eyes,
Nor yet the colour of their skin,
You don't match a fella like Nelson Mandela,
With the likes of Idi Amin.
Well I'm the same, I resent the game,
Folks play when they make compare.
It aint no joke, there's a unique bloke,
Beneath this facial hair.

It'd turn me grey what people say,
When I'm strolling around the town,
Why, apart from my belly I could be Ned Kelly,
If my hair was a bit more brown,
W.G. Grace had a barbate face,
Though perhaps not quite as hoary,
And Ho Chi Min's, though a bit more thin,
Was his countenential glory.

So I'm nothing at all like the bloke in the mall,
With the bright red pom-pom hat,
A marketing play from the USA
I'm not, and that is that.
I sing great songs and folk sing along,
I perform to wild applause,
And I'll sing this, chum, ad-nauseum
If you dare say I'm Santa Claus.

So to hell with the henna and the burnt sienna,
And I'm not gonna trim it short,
Go and embarrass that bloke Rolf Harris,
Tie your own kangaroo down sport.
There's more out there than facial hair,
If you need some cause for offence.
Till the day I've died, I'll wear with pride,
This beard on my countenence.

I don't look a bit like Santa Claus,
My verdict is official,
If the beard on me is all you see,
Then your look's too superficial,
There's Karl Marx and Henry Parkes,
With whom I could be compared,
And I do declare there's a bloke in there,
Who's all one piece with his facial hair,
What you see is what you get when I appear,
A man with a big, white beard.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 06:41 AM

Fred I don't think he was talking about the main players - just us lot with the walk on parts.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: JulieF
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 05:43 AM

I feel somewhat excluded from this sterotype. Well I have got the facial hair undercontrol as for the drink - guinness when I can't get good beer, irish whiskey and scots single malts when I can afford it ( Isle of Jura is about £15 a bottle in the local co-op at the moment), Good red wine when socialising with friends in their houses.   As for the closing you eyes when you sing - Have you seen some of the people I sing with ?

Seriously on the beard front. I think all men should be made to try one at least once at least to see if it suits them

J

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 04:45 AM

You seem to have a bizarre idea about traditional singers. Harry Cox didn't have a beard. Neither did Joe Heaney, Paddy Tunney, Walter Pardon, Jimmy McBeath, Sam Larner, Phoebe Smith, May Bradley or Elizabeth Cronin. On the other hand, Phil Tanner and George Maynard were suitably hirsute, although I'd be surprised if either of them were Guinness drinkers.

There may be a correlation between Irish traditional singers and Guinness, although Paddy Tunney was teetotal, but not between Irish traditional singers and beards - unless you count the Pecker Dunn, and I personally wouldn't.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 01:52 AM

Oh crap! I'd forgotten that Bert had seen me perform, and I wasn't in a tux.

But that was in my stage show, and I don't wear a tux there.

I do wear a tux with the martini at sessions and singarounds when I'm not performing professionally. Yeah, that's the ticket! Just at sessions anad singarounds.

And Mick, a true martini is only made with gin and dry vermouth - that vodka miscarriage which Ian Fleming foisted on a hapless public is simply that: vodka and vermouth, NOT a martini.

I still love the Guinness, though; I've been known to lick it off a leper's leg.
But not in my tux..

Seamus

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:44 AM

Ah, The Roaring Forties! It looked like Jennifer had to keep a good grip on her beard to keep it in place. Perhaps she was laughing too much for the gum arabic to work.

I've maintained for some years that balding is the only sure sign of maturity and, while I'm working on it, I'm not quite there yet. I confess to singing the odd trad song but couldn't claim to be a real traditional singer. I like Guinness but will accept guineas and prefer to keep my eyes open although, like many box players, I tend to have a fixed expression when getting into tricky tunes that require great concentration (at whch I'm hopeless. My daughters were shocked at how long my hair used to be before I moved to where water-supply (and thus conservation) was a pressing issue (hence the Guinness). They were born here and don't (yet) like Guinness. Lucky me! Severe adolescence caused my beard to persist but I save at least 10 minutes a day by keeping it. The only singers I've heard speak the last lines of their (sung) songs are from Ireland, have learned in Ireland or wish you believe they have some connection with Ireland.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:31 AM

We're still here mate. And remember "Mudcatters can commit no wrong"

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:29 AM

Hopefully soon, so's I can see my daughter, son in law, and grandbaby.

And to right a wrong I committed last time I was in the State in not seeing your family.

Mick

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:18 AM

Me too Mick, when are you coming to Colorado again?

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:11 AM

What's wrong with me, Bert, is that I don't get to sing with you often enough.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Bert
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:09 AM

...Once in a while I drink water ... I KNEW there was something wrong with you Mick! *grin*

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: JennyO
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:03 AM

Seen at the Loaded Dog last December:

The Roaring Forties started in 1988 as the Ensemble of Fat Bearded Shantymen & tonight they played homage to their origins.

Yes - even the women!!

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 06 - 12:03 AM

Gunness is good for you.
Beards - because it joins up with hair coming out of your ears.
Saying the last line of the song - well thats where the high notes are. Nobody capable of growing a beard is that much of a puff.
Closed eyes - well its no good looking round for encouragement with that sort of material.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:57 PM

Well, sometimes I wear it long, sometimes short. Currently I am square in the middle. I am thinking I will go back to a neat ponytail, unless I get tired of it while growing it. Then I will go back to wearing it like Seamus.

I usually drink Guinness, started doing that years ago when I was younger than you. Not too long after that I started drinking Jamesons. Once in a while I drink water when I have to rehydrate my brain from the other two. The next time Seamus and I are performing in the same venue, I will have the fixings for a martini in my Porter case. Seamus .... vodka or gin? ..... shaken or stirred? ... I will have olives ..... and a picture of a bottle of vermouth to show the drink so's to make sure it is appropriately dry.

I close my eyes to sink into the song, it helps me to emote. I open them occasionally to see if I still have an audience. I also open them when that very young, very blonde, very long legged, very beautiful waitstaffer is taking care of the tables directly in front of the stage. Often I open my eyes very wide when I "accidentally" kick something (like my bodhran, or a banjo, or a monitor, or occasionally Jon the bass player)off the stage and ask her to bend over, pick it up, and return it too me.

I usually sing in jeans, oftentimes in a kilt, occasionally in a suit and tie, and daily in the nude while showering. Let's see you get that mental imagery out of your head.

I very rarely speak the last line of a song, but when I do, it is for effect. It makes me feel like I'm famous or something.

What the hell is the point of this thread????? It proves the logic in only letting members start threads.

Mick

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Bert
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:46 PM

Seamus,

In the first words my wife spoke to me, "You are a Mother fucking liar"

Bert.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:45 PM

Actually, most traditional singers are clean-shaven (even the men), don't close their eyes, and have good haircuts. But then, the ones I describe have been dead for 20-30 years. The current crop of singers are from a later generation than the source singers, and many of these latter-day singers would never refer to themselves as 'traditional' singers. 'Singers of traditional songs,' yes, but not 'traditional' themselves.

The eyes-closed thing is, as people say, to avoid distraction (and, for some, to 'read' the lyric -- proof that the printed word has overtaken aural tradition is that we have to 'imagine' the lyric sheet in front of us. For some, of course, the missing words are written on the ceiling of the venue, you know.

And speaking the last line is most common (in America, anyway) among rural singers from the North Woods -- lumberjacks from Maine and Canada -- and the Maritimes. It's much less common to hear a southern ballad singer do it. In fact, I don't know of any of them who regularly do so. If it's common now in Britain, it's probably a 'take-back' of the tradition found in the northern US & Canada.

So that's the real story behind the stereotypes in the question that launched this thread.

Bob Clayton

PS -- I don't drink Guinness, nor any kind of beer or ale. Just a matter of taste, you know. My tipples are hard cider, rum, and single-malts of the mellower sort. Ask Bill D about my taste in malts; he knows my likes better than do I.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Dan Schatz
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 11:15 PM

Hmmm - not balding (yet) and I don't drink Guinness, but other than that the only answer I can come up with to your question is "Because we have taste."

(An alternative answer is that we can't sing either, but distract others from this by our beards, hippyish appearance and the glare from our foreheads and eyelids.)

Incidentally - the New Lost City Ramblers always used to perform in suits, because they felt it was how genuine old time musicians would dress if THEY were playing large concerts.

As to the last line of songs - this is a very old tradition in ballad singing. I have a recollection that it comes out of Irish musical traditions, but I'm not certain. It's been a long time since I took that college folklore course. Many field recordings have this stylistic element, and many revival singers of traditional songs like to perform as "authentically" as possible.

Dan Schatz and his beard.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:53 PM

closing the eyes when singing is one way to reduce distractions....like the fellow at your table snagging YOUR Guiness...or the short dress of the waitress....or that 'helpful' person down front mouthing slightly different words at you!

as to beards...well...when most traditional songs were composed, beards were quite common. *grin*....maybe it helps with the mood. (I affect mutton-chops of a sort, if that tells you anything)

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 10:03 PM

Personally, my choice of attire and beverage for a session or a singaround is a tuxedo and a dry Tanqueray martini up with 2 olives; and I speak the last line of the song because I've forgotten the tune by the end of the martini.

Seamus

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:42 PM

Well since a lot of traditional singing is done at places where Guinness is commonly served (in the back room of a pub, for example) and usually in very casual surroundings (again, like a pub) or maybe at a festival where people are camping, I don't think you'd find many guys singing traditional songs while wearing suits and sipping martinis. They may well go to work in a suit every day, and sometimes drink cocktails instead of Guiness, but for most traditional singers it's a form of relaxation and not something they'd be all decked out in their best bib and tucker for. Personally I find some of those long haired somewhat scruffy guys that sing traditional songs and dress like old hippies to be quite sexy.   But then I'm a bit of a non conformist myself. And I love listening to long ballads.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Bert
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:17 PM

I do have longish hair and drink Guinness occasionally. I don't have a beard (at the moment) and I NEVER close my eyes when singing and I'm not going bald.

Now and then I will speak a line or two in a song for emphasis. I rarely sing long songs.

So Shagger, dress how you like, shave or not as you wish and if you're going bald get yourself a wig. It doesn't matter as long as you SING.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:55 PM

Speaking the last line of the song is a common practice among rural "source singers"; i.e., those from whom some of the singers you have heard have likely gotten their material. It is a trademark of lumbercamp singing, at least here in the US. Others here will be able to give a more thorough history of it.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:53 PM

My experience is very different, but perhaps we live in different parts of the world. There are people in most walks of life who have beards, or drink Guinness, or have longish hair, or who are going bald. Some of them sing, some wear suits; sometimes simultaneously. Others are clean-shaven and prefer other drinks and styles of dress. Many, indeed, are women and do not suffer much from beards or baldness, though their hair may be long. So what?

It is best to avoid stereotyping, which on the whole gets nobody anywhere. I don't see the point of that part of your question, which I assume refers in any case to "singers of traditional songs" rather than "traditional singers"; the two things are not the same.

As for speaking the last part of a song, that has been fairly common practice -in England, and doubtless elsewhere- for well over a century (likely longer, but information on that is scarce). It isn't compulsory, and not all traditional singers did it. It's a way of bringing the singer, and perhaps the audience, back into the here-and-now after the narrative (sometimes highly emotional and involving) is concluded.

Singing with the eyes closed was also something remarked upon frequently by the early 20th century collectors. It might indicate shyness in some cases, or it might be a way of focusing on the song; or both. At all events, it was quite common.

Whether today's revival singers do these things for the same reasons, or because they think they are supposed to, would perhaps depend on how deeply involved in the whole thing they are.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: erinmaidin
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:23 PM

Not sure how to respond to the first part of your question as it is something I see occasionally but certainly not the rule at the venues I attend. Being a singer, I sometimes close my eyes when I fear a distraction will remove me from the song I'm singing and I'm a firm believer in trying to respect the song.
Speaking the last line of a song always seemed to me to be self-depracating. Whether real or contrived could only be determined by more time spent evaluating the singer's character.
As for "some of the songs are v.e.r.y. long and quite boring", possibly the fault of the singer. However, our modern society may be responsible for the fact that the average listener has an attention span that doesn't allow anything in that requires too much time or effort.

Subject: RE: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 07:18 PM

Sometimes you have to shut your eyes so you can read the words off the back of your eyelids

Subject: traditional singers: beards, & guinness?
From: GUEST,Sean (shagger) Mc Ginn
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

Why do most traditional singers have beards, (either longish hair or) balding, hippyish appearance, drink guinness AND 'close their eyes' when singing? (sorry Male singers) Is there a stereotypical singer or is it just the wanton hippy in them trying to get out?
I don't sing myself but, if I did, would I be expected to look similar to the above?
I go to festivals, singing weekends, pub sessions etc and almost everyone who sings traditional songs conforms to this expectation! Now I must admit not all are like this but if someone were to sing with a suit on they would not be given a decent hearing, where as, dress like someone who MISSED the 1960's but wanted to be part of it and they would be told 'the floor is yours'
Another thing, why do some singers speak the last line of a song? Is it just to be different or have they run out of interest? (you have to admit, some of their songs are v.e.r.y long and quite boring.)
Please don't take offence, I am very keen to know.
Cheers, 'shagger' Mc Ginn