Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Willie-O
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:39 PM

I think anyone who has not done so should take a minute to read the whole article that apparently sourced the information on E.MacColl's wartime record. It is quite badly written both from a standpoint of grammar, and knowledge of subject matter, as to be full of chuckles.

To wit, starting with the opening zinger:

• Tragic folk singer Kirsty MacColl's communist dad, Ewan,
  
• The murky past of Kirsty MacColl dad,
  
• The files dating back to 1939 contained information on double agents,spies, and those suspected of trying to undermine the British Empire. (Any guesses which category MacColl fell into? I go with the third and my spidey-senses are just a-tingling!)
  
• HEY, it turns out his CO was a songwriter too!: "But despite penning an anti war tune called Browned Off, in which he claims to be browned off at having to "help to save democracy", his commanding officer expressed his concerns to Hyde Borough Police on December 16, 1940."
  
• And it seems the MI5 had a fallback reason for not pursuing the aristocratic fascists: " MI5 feared: "If too many titled people are arrested the public might get the wrong idea as to the importance of the Fifth Column in this country." " Better to take on the folksingers! although they seemingly ignored MacColl after his desertion. Guess that was all they wanted from him.
  
• In other news: "Another file uncovered a Japanese spy ring operating in the Far East during the run up to World War Two." Holy crap, would you have ever believed it? I'm on the edge of my seat here with this incredible revelation. Wait, it gets better: "Japanese spies posed as boy scouts..." I always thought there was something fishy about those neckerchief-wearing flag-raisers.
  
• And finally, "a Norwegian fishing boat, Motor Vessel Reidar, was being used in 1943 to ferry German agents into Scotland." Well, turnabout is fair play, at least if you're a fascist at heart. There was a whole squadron of Norwegian fishing boats helping the Allies infiltrate Scandinavia. They called it The Shetland Bus. (Look up the book of the same name.) One of them tried to smuggle a torpedo into a fiord to sink the Bismarck--or was it the Graf Spee?-- where it was hiding out. Great yarn there. They got stopped, searched and were let go by the Nazis patrolling the mouth of the fiord, while they had their torpedo underwater on a towline.   
  
  W-O
  been reading J LeCarre this morning.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:24 PM

'My mother used to say - the thing about Christianity - its never been tried.'
Ghandi said the same about western civilisation
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 12:42 PM

yeh that's right Jeri. No I never confused Blair with socialism.

My mother used to say - the thing about Christianity - its never been tried.

I suspect someone could say the same about socialism.

as you get older, you do tend to think - theres probably a reason nobody's tried it.

Re the angina - I don't think it was macho, he was a nice guy, not without his faults I'm sure. But he probably just felt that it mattered what he was doing. And he was used to soldiering on, as most players are when they don't feel well, so he that's what he did.

Those long ballads he used to do. they're longer than any speech in shakespeare - they demanded committment from him - I suppose that;'s why he felt entitled to ask for that from the audience.

al

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 11:35 AM

And the American comes in to translate... sad day, innit?

Jim was hoping 'everybody' would discuss Ewan MacColl's singing.
Weelittledrummer said he though he had been.
Jim non-sequituristically clarified what he meant by 'socialism'.

Wee, I thought Jim was talking about posters in general, not you. I thought you'd been talking about the man and singer. The politics are woven through his life, but to focus on one rumor (which some others are doing) is just petty and stupid in light of the contributions MacColl made. And no, I never met him, never saw a gig, and I don't think he's perfect. Finishing a gig in the midst of an angina attack sounds very heroic, but in my view, it's just macho recklessness. Nevertheless, it fits with the larger than life opinion some have of him.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 10:58 AM

weelittle drummer,
Sorry - the socialism I mean involves everybody having enough to eat and no more war.
Nobody mentioned invading third-world countries
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:16 AM

I thought I was doing.

Obviously not your satisfaction.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:34 AM

I'm off on a week's holiday tomorrow.
I look forward to coming back and finding everybody discussing Ewan as a singer.
On the other hand, I used to believe that one day we'd all be living under socialism - so there you go!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:27 AM

I don't know about anybody else, but I find the title of this thread offensive.

You may not have agreed with Ewan about everything and, I can see one or two folks here bumped into him on a bad night. but I thought he was more than all right, and I don't mean as an artist - I mean as a person.

And he had a son Hamish, I seem to remember. He was into music. It wouldn't be very nice for him to see his Dad talked of as a coward and traitor.

I mean, fair enough - if he'd been a serial murderer or something, but he wasn't.

I remember chatting with Martin Carthy onetime - must have been about a year before he Ewan died. From what Martin said, I don't think he saw eye to eye with Ewan about everything - but thats how it should be between two great artists. Anyway Martin had just done done a gig with him, and Ewan had suffered an angina attack onstage. Martin was very moved at the way Ewan had insisted on finishing the song - getting through to the end of the gig, even though the angina was kicking in.

And god knows the guy stood up for stuff, he believed in.

So please not a coward or traitor, when it came to stuff that mattered to him.

big al whittle

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:49 AM

I agree.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Roberto
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:37 AM

I think the Mudcat should modify the title of this thread (criticism of Ewan MacColl?): GUESTBob's is a shame, don't let him win this. R

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:00 PM

Hmm. Interesting. I notice that GUEST,Bob dropped his little stink-bomb and then hasn't been back.

Freakin' troll!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:18 PM

Thanks Jim,

[e-mail] will reach me.

I suppose another half dozen emails offering me viagra wont make much difference. Mind my wife is wondering why I keep deleting them!!

Dave Eyre

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Effsee
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:50 PM

"The murky past of Kirsty MacColl dad, who sang with the Irish punk band The Pogues " LOLOLOL

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:50 PM

Dave,
My e-mail has gone awol and we are going on holiday on Sunday,
Will try to contact you again tomorrow, o/w will be back on Monday week
Jim Carroll
PS Don't understand technology - why can't I send e-mails but can mail to Mudcat - why did I ever abandon teh quill pen!

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 12:07 PM

Jim Carroll, I wonder if you would be kind enough to contact me at my home email, dave @ deyre.plus.com.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM

According to the news report he became Ewan in 1952.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:29 AM

C'mon, half anonymous attackers, we have only three threads about MacColl running. You can do better than that. Surely there must have been a rumour about his marital life once (there always are) and didn't he once borrow a songbook and forgot to bring it back?

Wolfgang (clueless about the real motivation for these attacks)

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST,Coyote Breath (without cookie)
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:17 AM

Thanks LH, but "guts"? I just got fed up.

Could someone enlighten me as to why the sudden attention to Ewan MacColl?

I like what I have heard from him (Springhill is a favorite, the imagery is powerful and appropriate to the story and to all mine disaster stories).

CB

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Snuffy
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 08:38 AM

So when was his next recorded sighting after 18/12/40 and what was he doing in the meantime?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 08:06 AM

I agree Scrump. A few years ago I worked with a guy who was an absolute homophobe. There was a particularly good singer around at that time but this guy wouldn't even listen to his music because the singer was homosexual. I reckon that was his loss but it was difficult to understand why his sexuality was so important to someone who was only ever going to know his music.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:29 AM

Oops, just seen this thread. Maybe this comment I just made elsewhere would have been more appropriate here.

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:26 AM

When did he first Ewan?

Subject: RE: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: JamesHenry
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 06:17 AM

Perhaps Jimmy Miller (deserter) was never prosecuted by the military because he had taken on the identity of Ewan MacColl, someone who didn't appear on their records?

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:37 PM

As Studs Terkel said introducing him at Newport in 1959, "Here is a monumental figure in the world of folk music!"

I just put Ewan and A.L. Lloyd's grand riverside LP onto a CD----the one called Champions And Sporting Blades. All sporting events and matches chronicled in great songs and ballads.

Someone started a thread recently called something like, "Did Ewan MacColl ever do any songs that weren't serious"---in the tragic sense, I guess. Well, this LP proved that he did on just about every cut.

A great artist with a treasure trove who learned from so many source singers!!! ;-)

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 08:28 PM

Well, I'm impressed that this troll thread has actually generated some good discusion.

The choices of "coward " or "traitor" certainly ticked me off initially but I do find the AWOL situation worthy of further discussion. There are all kinds of choices that people can make in their lives, and Ewan's choice was probably a reasoned one. I'm surprised that there is no record of any follow-up on the part of the British Army. Maybe they were just too busy, or maybe someone did some thinking and realized that Ewan was too tough a nut to try to crack.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:58 PM

Another thing, how can someone who has given so much to this country and whose genuine patriotism and love of the people of this country shines out in a hundred songs at least - how could someone like that possibly be a traitor?

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:16 PM

Good for you, Coyote Breath. I wish there were a hundred million more who would the wisdom and the guts to do the same as you did.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST,Coyote Breath
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 05:13 PM

Sounds like Ewan MacColl had both the honor and integrity to live his life without compromise. Good for him!

In January of 1959, while stationed in France with the USAF, I walked into the orderly room and told the first sargeant that I quit. I told him I would ONLY follow direct orders from that point on and would do NOTHING to contribute to our NATO "mission".

I was kept in that orderly room and away from the microwave communication equipment I had been responsible for until I was finally give a "General Discharge, Under Honorable Conditions" in May of that year. Basically, I went "on strike".

In the course of the USAF trying to figure out just what I was up to I was asked if I was a Communist. I said, "Not yet"!

I got the discharge I received because I hadn't done anything to warrant any other type of discharge. No laws broken, no bad deeds done. I was still able to enjoy all my veteran's benefits (including the GI Bill funds to attend college).

I wasn't allowed to keep my uniforms (oooh!)

I don't know what sort of reaction I would have gotten had I been in during Vietnam or what would happen if I were a soldier in combat (as in Iraq or Afganistan) Maybe I would have been court martialed. The investigators just couldn't understand why I "quit" and I wasn't saying anything to help them. I quit because what I was doing was wrong. I decided that my being in the military, no matter how much removed from any sort of combat, was wrong.

I took a chance when I quit. I really had no idea how they would react but I figured that if I just "quit", not presenting any threat of any kind they would just let me go, to avoid any "problems".

While what I did might seem like a blow against the system, I looked at it as a challenge, a contest of wits and I thoroughly enjoyed myself!

CB

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST,Lunchman
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:37 PM

Ewan McColl can sing better than GUEST, Bob.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:20 PM

The fact that Ewan MacColl was not prosecuted for being AWOL might indicate that there was much more going on than meets the eye.

I wonder what GUEST, Bob's real problem is with Ewan MacColl.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:57 PM

I rather assume the selection of the words were a reference to the word of the Red Flag -

...Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer
We'll keep the Red Flag flying here.

As sung by the British Labour Party to wind up its Manchester conference today. (Good grief...)

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:34 PM

Why just leave the choice at "coward or traitor"?

Why not include these possible choices as well: "wife beater, apostate, pervert, cheater, scoundrel, wastrel, drunk, layabout, criminal, thief, opium fiend, morbidinist, blackmailer, murderer, masochist, grave-robber, serial rapist, and tort-feaser"?

I mean, hey, if we're going to pass judgement on another human being, why restrict the field so narrowly, Bob?

(the above is intended as sarcasm)

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:20 PM

Interesting thing with that report I quoted from and meant to link to (and have now) - throughout Ewan is identified as "Singer Kirsty MacColl's dad", rather than the other way round.

I don't actually think he'd have liked that too much.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:03 PM

True enough Jim, I only saw him and Peggy once and they were very, very good, they wrote lots of great songs and made a massive contribution to the revival and so did lots of other people. If he left political and personal controversy it was no more than he would have wanted or expected.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:43 PM

But there again, I have much sympathy with those who believe that wealth should be shared fairly too...

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:43 PM

I rather like the military distrust of intelligence...

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:40 PM

Sighhhhhh
One of these days we'll get around to discussing his singing - oh - was that a pig I just saw flying past the window.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:18 PM

Nonconformists and free spirits are always detested by the military command structure...in ANY army. The military values unthinking obedience to superior authority above all else. He got encouraged to leave? Good. It speaks well for him. I would say the same of someone who got encouraged to leave the Catholic Church for thinking outside the box. Same basic deal.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:14 PM

I rather suspect that he left with the encouragement of his superiors, as a way of avoiding an embarrassing situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:52 PM

I guess this will run and run. What did he say about going AWOL? It's very difficult to separate McColl the singer from McColl the agitator - mostly because McColl wouldn't let it happen. His contribution was massive but his arogance could be painful.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:45 PM

Fact is he was in the Army (joining in June, 1940) and went AWOL on December 18th, 1940. MI5 had monitored him since 1932 and had placed him on a Special Observation List when he joined the army. His superiors did not like his activities in the army and feared his bad influence on fellow soldiers.

It is hard to believe for me that MI5 had observed him all the time but completely lost track of him after December 1940. In January 1941 a colonel wrote: Pte. miller has been absent from this unit without leave since 18th December, and there would appear to be something fishy concerning his absence, as communications have been received from his wife asking for extensions of leave

After the war there has been no action against MacColl, completely different from the treatment of normal deserters.

One can speculate what has happened. Perhaps, MI5 was quite happy to have him, the communist, no longer in the army and there was a kind of mutual agreement that he needed not to come back and that the AWOL would not be prosecuted in his case.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:41 PM

This news story gives a few more details, and it was rather more c0mplicated than the opening troll indicates. Basically he appears to have decided to split when he'd been picked out by his superior officers as someone suspected of beiing a politically dangerous Communist - this beig at a time when the Russo-German Pact was still theoretically in operation, so he mighthave felt a bit vuklnerable to harassment or worse if he stayed put.

...his commanding officer expressed his concerns to Hyde Borough Police on December 16, 1940.

The report stated: "His influence over his fellow soldiers was that of a man of much greater intelligence than the ordinary soldier.

"In some ways they would follow him, though at no time was he ever discovered suggesting improper action, he may well have done so under cover. "

Two days later MacColl went AWOL.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:07 PM

They don't usualy join do they?

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:04 PM

I suppose there was no such thing as a conscientious objector, was there? D'oh!

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:54 AM

Of course they are excellent singers... I am a troll, foldy roll,I am a troll, foldy roll, I am a troll, foldy roll, and I'll eat McColl for supper.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:46 AM

There's no reason why a troll couldn't be an excellent singer.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:30 AM

Why can't they be both? And lousy singers as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:23 AM

Yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:39 AM

GUESTs who start provocative threads - trolls or idiots?

Subject: RE: BS: Ewan MacColl - coward or traitor?
From: GUEST,neftig
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 10:11 AM

Yeah, "Bob"? I bet you would approve of a German who deserted from the army during WWII, wouldn't you? Screw you. Your judgements upon other people's worth are totally arbitrary, and stem from a twitch in your own gimpy knee.