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BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:22 PM They don't have much of a lobby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Peace Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:15 PM "You can only buy liquor between the hours of 11am and 7pm (or something close to that) on Sundays in NJ." Doesn't that discriminate against alcoholics? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:14 PM You can only buy liquor between the hours of 11am and 7pm (or something close to that) on Sundays in NJ. I believe the bars close either 1 or 2am. There are towns with individual "blue laws". Bergen County has laws against certain retail shopping on Sunday. The town of Paramus has tried to repeal it, but voters keep knocking it down - religion or not, they enjoy a day with less traffic. Of course we can just go over to the next county. Sorry to sidetrack the discussion. I am still curious if there has been any update in the month and a half since the NAACP filed this suit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: GUEST,guest bill hahn Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:08 PM But not being a teetoaller they sure do have "blue laws" regarding liquor sales on Sundays. Oich---denks God sacremental wine is purchaseable on Saturday. Medicinal purposes you understand. Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:58 PM Wow, maybe I'm just lucky. My dentist has Saturday hours, my doctor and opthamologist have Sunday hours. My kids doctors also have Saturday hours. In Teaneck, as I said previously, most doctors are open on Sunday to meet the needs of the community. Home Depot is open 24 hours a day so if I get an urge to re-shingle my roof at 2am I am in luck. I can have my car washed, oil changed, see a movie, buy a book, or do my grocery shopping at any hour of the day or night. Maybe New Jersey is just more advanced then the rest of the country???? So what if we have high taxes!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: GUEST,guest bill hahn Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:31 PM I don't know about Ron, but I too live in the proximate area and as far as I can see no doctor or dentist is open. On call for emergencies is about the extent of it. Same for mechanics. What is open 24/7 are retail stores, it seems. But to the issue at hand I refer back to my earlier posting---morally I disagree w/the local NAACP and its representative. From a legal standpoint I have to wonder if they do not in fact have a case given the funding by government situation. Again, I am not a lawyer but I would guess this will be open to court interpretation. Anyone can sue anyone for anything in this country. Whether it is a valid suit or not is not the issue--everyone has thd right to sue--we are, in truth, a highly litigious society. Sadly. Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Wesley S Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:23 PM Then I can't see that they are denying access to anyone. The suit is baseless. Of course - a judge and lawyers may disagree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 20 Oct 06 - 04:18 PM The clinics usually stays open until 9 PM at night. SOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM I guess it depends on where you live. As lifestyles change, business changes with it. I guess I am jaded living in the NYC area where you can buy everything from medicine to lumber 24/7. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Cool Beans Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:52 PM Shame on the those filing suit! Any number of cliches come to mind (they're true; that's why they become cliches). 1. No good deed goes unpunished. 2. Beggars can't be choosers. I assume that real emergency care--hospitals, EMS--is available on Saturdays in the area. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: MMario Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:44 PM what's unusual about that? Par for the course in this neck of the woods (except emergency room service) -- most automotive repair centers are closed on weekends as well - and few have evening hours. There is one (1) locally that has a half day on saturdays.and one that has evening hours one day a week - out of eight in the county. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:41 PM No dentist or doctors on Saturday or Sunday?? That amazes me in this day and age. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: SINSULL Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:32 PM My dentist and doctor have no Saturday hours. Are they discriminating against working people? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: BuckMulligan Date: 20 Oct 06 - 03:21 PM Certainly seems to have all the earmarks of a nuisance/publicity stunt. The only fly in the ointment is the level of public funding involved, and even that ought to be easily overridden by concessions to convenience made on non-Saturday hours (evenings, Sundays, etc.) If the clinic is truly available and accessible other than "9-to-5, M-F" then the fact that it isn't open Saturdays oughta be a who cares. Noplace is available for everyone's convenience. And am I the only one getting a bad taste in my mouth for the NAACP over this? I dunno, maybe there's more behind it, but it doesn't seem in character for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Wesley S Date: 20 Oct 06 - 02:18 PM What time does the clinic close in the evening? Could they make a case that they are serving the community by being open until -say - 8:00 in the evening? Or at least after 5? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 20 Oct 06 - 02:09 PM About 90% of the doctors on staff are Jewish. Replacing them for one day a week would be problematic. Yes, the clinic is open on evenings as well. The clinics are not free, but those who can not afford to pay or who lack insurance are never turned away. That is the entire purpose of the public funding. Sinsull, It is permitted for a Jew to own stock in a publicly traded company that does business on Staurdays as long as he is not a majority stockholder. The majority of all the clooective shares must be oned by non-Jews. SOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Big Mick Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:07 PM Nothing like those old Yiddish curses, eh Peace? LOL. Here's another, as best as I can remember:
Them lads know how to tell someone off. LOL. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Peace Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:03 PM 1) May all his teeth fall out but one. And in that he should have a permanent toothache. 2) The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:09 AM Has there been any update? I just read that this lawsuit was filed at the beginning of September. Is the case moving forward? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: EBarnacle Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:07 AM In part, we are dealing with a matter of convenience. Is the clinic open evenings as well as days? If so, how is it inconvenient for the served public to appear at times other than on Saturday? If they go to church on Sunday, what are their other attendance options? How many go to church? I find it difficult to accept that this is creating a real problem. This whole thing raises more questions than it can possibly resolve. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Big Mick Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:02 AM Lot of chaff here. Of course there is no law mandating that agencies that receive federal funding be open 7 days a week. Just look around at the various federally funded agencies that are not. One could create a case that by being open on Sunday they are going the extra mile. The only objection one could have to that would be Christian religious, but that would be the same objection the Jewish community has with Saturday. This is not an extended care facility such as a hospital. It is a free clinic. Many of those are open less than five days a week, even though they recieve federal funding, due to cuts in that same funding. If the feds want to require them to be open 7 days, then they should fund 7 days.
IMO. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 06 - 10:55 AM Last I knew the U.S. was supposed to be a nation of laws, and prides itself on the fact (recent torture statute passed notwithstanding). If the clinic- because it receives public funding- is indeeed in violation of the law (and I emphasize the IF, because I do not know the answer) it would seem a bit venal to fault the NAACP for insisting that the law be enforced, no? If the law needs to be changed, take it up with Congress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 20 Oct 06 - 10:48 AM Sounds like a bit of nit-picking (or more serious) on the part of Mr. Troutman and the local NAACP. From a moral standpoint I disagree with their position. From a legal standpoint (I am not an attorney) 1 few thoughts come to mind---some of which have been mentioned: 1) Many MD offices are closed in mid week and wknds. But, then, they are private entities that rcve no govt funding (save reimbursements from Medicare/Medicaid). 2)Religiously affiliated hospitals are open 7 days a week and the staff is scheduled accordingly. These institutions rcve. gov't funding-- to some extent. To sum up I would say that the local NAACP is merely trying to create a problem where none exists but may well have legal grounds to stand on. On a more positive note I would suggest they should open a clinic of their own that would be open on those days. On a tangential note just today there was a news item about a Catholic affiliated hospital that would not distribute birth control prescriptions and are being told that as long as they accept government subsidies---includng Medicare/Medicaid---they cannot choose what they will distribute and what not. Seems like an analgous situation. BIll Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: SINSULL Date: 20 Oct 06 - 10:35 AM The NAACP is filing the suit according to the articlea I read. Hard to believe it is valid. Wouldn't it follow that services offered by, for example, Catholic run clinics would have to be available on Sundays? I would love to know the motivation behind this suit. Should the NAACP win, these clinics could close and everyone would lose. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: SINSULL Date: 20 Oct 06 - 10:26 AM This is a real question, Rabbi, not a troll. Is it permitted for a Jew to own stock in a company that operates on Saturdays? A shopping mall, for instance. SINS |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Greg F. Date: 20 Oct 06 - 10:15 AM Is Troutman filing the suit, or is the NAACP? If the former, the fact that he is a member/officer of the NAACP is immaterial. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: wysiwyg Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:31 AM Rabbi Sol, what are the forces in the background making it seem as though the NAACP and the Jewish community must oppose one another, in this situation, instead of acting to form a cooperative alliance? These "who's discriminating against whom" fights between two groups already bearing discrimination from the larger culture are a smoke screen to keep them from joining forces for a greater mutual strength. I'm sorry the peace between them is under assault. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Oct 06 - 09:28 AM "But I agree with kat. I don't know of ONE clinic or doctor's office that is open on SUNDAY" It may be a matter of geography. It is very common here in NJ. In the town of Teaneck, where our radio station broadcasts from, there is a large Orthodox population. It is very common for doctors and clinics to be open on Sunday. In fact, many businesses are closed on Saturday and open on Sunday. This is a tough call. I think it boils down to two factors: 1. The town that these clinics serve is primarily 90% non-white as Rabbi Sol stated. A clinic that receives government funding should be serving the needs of the community it serves. 2. The doctors that run the clinic have religious obligations that determine how they run their business. What would happen if the doctors resigned? Would the clinic shut down? What would happen if the clinic were to operate seven days a week and shifts were created that would not schedule the Jewish staff to work on Saturday. If it is a regular schedule, then could the clinic be operated on Saturday by regularly scheduled non-Jewish staff? It would seem to me that if a doctor or staff person is not scheduled to work on Saturday to begin with, there would be no problem with how the office is staffed on a Sabbath. It would also show that the clinic is being very responsive to the community it serves by creating options for coverage 7 days a week. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Midchuck Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:48 AM I agree with Big Mick. Since he generally takes the knee-jerk liberal position (He's a professional Union organizer, so he pretty much has to), this scares me a little. I may be slipping... Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Big Mick Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:38 AM What a load of bollocks. There is no requirement for a clinic to be open 7 days a week, even if it is receiving public funding. There is nothing in law which dictates which two days it must be closed. This is just Troutman trying to justify his position. It isn't reverse discrimination, there is no such thing. There is just discrimination, and this is anti semitic discrimination. Often one needs only reverse the situation to show how ridiculous it is. Let's say this chapter of the NAACP (an organization whose aims I support) dedided to open a clinic in a predominately Jewish area. Let's say they decided to be open on Saturdays and close on Sundays. What would their reaction be if the Jewish community claimed discrimination based on their Sabbath, and the clinic not being open on Sunday? This appears to me to be ludicrous, and a self serving case promoted by someone who wants some press in his community. Mr. Troutman should be grateful that RCDC is willing to invest in the community, and be a bit respectful of the religious practices of the folks that are providing the service. Is there something I am missing here? Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Midchuck Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:31 AM If I were as good a person as I ought to be, I wouldn't be so quickly reminded of the National Lampoon strip from the 70s, titled "The War Between the Negroes and the Jews." But I can't help it. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: mack/misophist Date: 20 Oct 06 - 08:21 AM I side with the clinic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Ebbie Date: 20 Oct 06 - 02:32 AM Might'nt they make the case that they are serving the community since they are open on Wednesdays when many doctors' offices are closed? But I agree with kat. I don't know of ONE clinic or doctor's office that is open on SUNDAY. Surely this is a non-issue. If the County Commission doesn't, the state Supreme Court should be able to settle the matter forthwith. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: katlaughing Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:45 AM I don't know of any clinics which are commonly open on Saturday OR Sunday. Most folks have to get along with the usual weekday fare and if they are lucky some clinics may have evening hours during the week. The whole thing seems like reverse discrimination to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: artbrooks Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:40 AM So take the profit from the Saturday operations, put it into a separate account, and give it away to some worthy cause (like the YMCA). Make sure you net out the extra bookkeeping required first and that nobody takes a tax deduction on that money. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: GUEST,marks Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:42 PM You would think the NAACP would commend the clinic for providing needed services to poor residents. Seems to me there is an anti-semitic undertone to this complaint. Mark |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: jeffp Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:27 PM Would it be possible to give up the public funding and still stay in operation? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:00 PM Hi Dave, A "Shabbos Goy" is only allowed to be used in a limited role for an emergency only. If someone forgot to turn the lights on in the synagogue or your furnace went out on a wintery Saturday. He can not be used for a planned long term situation such as operating a full time health facility. That would be considered a subterfuge of both, the letter and the spirit of the law. SOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:30 PM Sol: A Jew is not allowed to have a non-Jewish person work for him on the Sabbath. It is as if he worked himself. Whatever happened to the Shabbos goy? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: pdq Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:26 PM I would like to know how many hospitals the NAACP has built, financed or operated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:04 PM If the clinics were operated by Christians they'd be closed on Sundays. As it is, they're closed Saturdays and open Sundays. What's the big difference between getting a filling on Saturday or Sunday? |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: NH Dave Date: 19 Oct 06 - 08:21 PM OK, so what will probably happen is that Mr Hoffman will close the Ben Gilman Center, from the pressure coming at him from the NAACP and his religion. Isn't a meddling local authority great? Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 19 Oct 06 - 08:16 PM The fact that Hoffman as well as other RCDC Jewish officers profit from this operation is what prompted the Rabbinnic ban. A Jew is not allowed to have a non-Jewish person work for him on the Sabbath. It is as if he worked himself. SOL |
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Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 19 Oct 06 - 08:09 PM A tough one, and I'm not sure if I understand all the points. If the clinic receives government funding they need to serve their community. If 90% of the community needs the service on Saturday, then it seems like they have a strong case. If the clinics are funded by the government, what influence does the rabbinical authorities have on the operation? |
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Subject: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY From: Rabbi-Sol Date: 19 Oct 06 - 08:00 PM This is another one that will probably end up in the Supreme Court. Mendel Hoffman, an orthodox hasidic Jew and a leader in the Monsey community is the president of a social service organization called the Rockland Community Development Corp. more popularly known by its initials, RCDC. Among the many projects that RCDC operates are 2 Medical & Dental Clinics for poor people. One of them is the Monsey Health Center, located on Robert Pitt Drive in Monsey, NY which primarily services the Jewish community although people of all races and religions are welcome there and do in fact go there. The other is the Ben Gilman Medical & Dental Center which is located in downtown Spring Valley which primarily serves that city's local population. Spring Valley's population is 90% non white,comprised of African Americans, Hatians, Jamaicans and Hispanics. Both clinics are the recipients of public governmental funds and grants. Both clinics are closed on the Jewish Shabbos (Friday night & Saturday), and are open on Sundays. In the winter, when Shabbos ends early (at sundown), the clinics open Saturday night as well. Willie Troutman, head of the Spring Valley chapter of the NAACP, recently filed a complaint with the Rockland County Commission on Human Rights. He claims that by closing on the Jewish Sabbath, Mendel Hoffman, as operator of the Ben Gilman Center is discriminating against the non-white population of Spring Valley by denying them medical and dental services on Saturday, when it is the most convenient for them to go there. Troutman contends that because the clinic is the recipient of public funding, it should not have the option of closing on Saturdays. Hoffman has said publicly that although he would be willing to open the Gilman Center on Saturdays, staffed with all non-Jewish personnel, the Rabbinnical authorities have ruled that it is prohibited. At issue here is 1) Does the fact that the clinic closes on Saturdays constitute discrimination in the eyes of the law ? and 2) Can a clinic be forced to stay open on a Saturday in violation of the operator's religious rights ? If the clinic chose to close on a Wednesday, like most doctors offices do, there would be no issue of contention here. The fact that is is Saturday is what creates the problem. Mr. Hoffman has retained the services of Roman P. Storzer, the famous Washington DC attorney who specializes in religious discrimination issues. We will now open this issue to our Mudcat forum. I would like to poll the members here and listen to what you all have to say. SOL ZELLER |
