BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 01:55 PM

http://www.nwlondoneruv.org/

The above is obviously a pro-eruv website. I don't know if there is an anti one.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Ferrara
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:35 PM

About the Shabbos elevator vs stairs: At 65 (almost), with a transplanted heart that doesn't like surprises, I am so aware that many hospital visitors are older people who may have difficulty with stairs for different reasons.

Going back to my earlier post. After I turned off the computer, I decided I could probably answer my own question. I.e. I strongly suspect the law does not require organizations receiving public funds to provide services on a schedule convenient for their clients. However it does require them not to discriminate against potential clients for reasons of etc.

That explains to me why Troutman charged "discrimination." It is a powerful term that wins court cases. To me it's plain as the nose on your face that there was no discrimination here. But the world is crazy. Sure hope the clinic doesn't have to close.

Rita F

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:21 PM

Shopping is never permitted on Shabbos. Wheeling baby carriages is an essential use of the Eruv for Shabbos.

                                                    SOL

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Cool Beans
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 08:46 AM

Elvis was a shabbos goy! As a kid, when his family lived upstairs from their landlord, an Orthodox Jewish man, in Memphis.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Linda Goodman Zebooker
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 07:31 AM

And the ability to carry or transport babies! That's a vital thing also requiring an eruv. Changes the whole character of the community if there isn't an eruv.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 04:09 AM

I think I recollect that in part of Hampstead Garden Suburb, London, England, an Eruv was intentionally created by putting up wires that had no other purpose, and as far as I remember the intention was to facilitate shopping on Saturday. I may however be a little out on some (or most) of the detail...

There was a row about planning permission, if my memory serves me.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 25 Oct 06 - 12:12 AM

Hi Bill,
          Sol here.

Pilpul is Logic. It is whtat the Talmud is based on.

The leniencys that are built into the laws are part and parcel of them and to use these so called loopholes is totally proper. They must however be applied properly and in the appropriate circumstances.When used properly they are not considered hypocrisy.

The use of an "Eruv", wires strung between telephone poles to rope off an area where it is permissable to carry on "Shabbos" is a perfect example of this. Carrying is prohibited in the public domaine but permitted in the private domaine. How this demarcation is to take place fills up an entire tractate (Eruvin) in the Talmud,
but the conclusion is that the telephone wires are valid, provided that some other circumstances exist as well. Even with a valid "Eruv" only objects that are needed for the "Shabbos" such as prayer books, food, and clothing are allowed to be carried. If you wanted to bring tickets for a Saturday night folk music concert to your friend who lives within the demarcation zone, that would be considered hypocrisy and you would not be allowed to carry them.
Regards.
                                                   SOL

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:08 PM

Kinda' like Lenny Bruce's old thing.......You live in New York, you're Jewish even if you're Goyish. You can't be Jewish in Butte, Montana. Even if you are Jewish, in Butte you're Goyish.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 08:57 PM

Art--That is a great anecdote---love it.
Bunnahabaim (or close to it): Great point!!   And good exercise.

Theoligically more valid than elevators. After all---infirmity excuses us from visiting the ill or sacrificing health. The discussion can be interminable---what we need is logic.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 07:37 PM

Which for some reason reminds me of the football game to which I took my then-new girlfriend (now wife of 36 1/2 years) when we were students at the University of Utah. Utah, BTW, is the only place where Jews are gentiles (look it up!), which amused Jenn. It was Utah vs. BYU in Provo, and they had a big card section. At one point they raised a set of cards that spelled out Go Y and herself said, "but they don't have to be nasty about it!"

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:59 PM

Fay:   We really should have a whole new thread to discuss this.   First---the italics. I learned it on Mudcat. Look for the HTML guide from Dan Mulligan from a post on April 6 1998. For italics here is what you do put the order    into the note and when you want to end the italics . In your case I entered the first symbol--pasted your note and then put nm the last symbol (command).

            I suppose we can say this is "pil=pul" (if I am using the right expression. Forgetting that I am Jewish---my friend (all those years ago) would have asked the same of a Christian. Therefore he benefited from the act either way.   So, it seems to me, that even a synagogue that employs what they call "the Shabbos Goy" is showing hypocrisy by benefiting from that person's acts. And doing so knowledgeable. The same, on a different matter, is the use of strings to line areas where work (carrying things) is permitted.

          For the rest of the Mudcat community it should be pointed out that the term "Goy" is not a deragotory term. It is merely a term for Non-Jew (Christian---or , I suppose, any other faith). But, not deragotory---though many think it is.

          To digress--one of the best routines that I have played on my Sunday Simcha Radio program is the Shelley Berman routine about the delicatessen owner and his son---and Shelley Berman describes his father at the beginning as one who "...served the Goyim in the area---laborers. Jews who were laborers were also Goyim to my father". What follows is a truly funny routine with a touching ending. Repeated last week after many requests.

            Speaking of that program--- I will anounce this later on the Mudcat--- Mort Sahl will be my guest in about 3 weeks. He is performing locally with Robert Klein and Dick Gregory on Nov. 18.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 06:59 PM

There is one point that would seem rather obvious, at least to me. What's wrong with the stairs?

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 05:51 PM

Hi Bill,
It's Fay again--too lazy to boot up my own computer.

{Reminds me of a fellow who I knew when I was a teenager. He was very religious and on Shabbos he asked me to hold his money and get him the ice-creams or cigarettes as we walked along a Boardwalk in Rockaway. Seems analgous to the above.}
How did you get this in italics?

The above is not analagous to the point. It is never allowed to ask a Jew to do something another Jew is not allowed to do. One cannot ask a non-Jew to do something a Jew is not allowed to do, either. However, a non-Jew is not bound by the law of Shabbos, therefore he or she may do what is convenient for him or her. If, for example, a Jew and non-Jew are in a room & it is getting dark, the non-Jew may put the light on because he wants it. The Jew does not need to walk out of the room & may benefit from it.

{My understanding is that the "Orthodox" are proscribed from riding on Shabbos. So riding in the elevator is already a problem. Additinally, and this is what I meant by deriving benefits---the "power" is on and the buttons don't have to be pushed. Seems like an earthly loophole to religious proscription which if one truly believed would not even think of it.}

Riding itself is NOT the problem.
The problem is causing electricity to be generated.
There are certain rules that are more lenient. Scriptural laws cannot be changed; however, rabbinic rulings can be relaxed in certain situations; for example, to do a mitzvah, which could not be done otherwise.

Visiting the sick is an important mitzvah; however, taking a Shabbos elevator to go to a 10th floor "disco" would not be considered proper use of the dispensation.

Regards

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 03:51 PM

Sol/Fay: Not to go too far away from the "thread" but to respond to your most interesting and respectful takes on my thoughts about "rules" --specifically we spoke of the "Shabbos" elevator. I used it merely as an example of circumventing the religious rules and deriving the benefits that would not have been possible if one stuck to the letter of the "religious law"   You state--Also, please note that Mt. Sinai is a Jewish hospital--why shouldn't they make it convenient for their constituents?

A Shabbos elevator is programmed to automatically stop @ each floor; this overrides the manual controls so that people don't have to generate electricity by pressing the buttons.There is a sign telling which is the specific elevator so that observers will know which one to use & others won't think that that person is violating the Shabbos.

My understanding is that the "Orthodox" are proscribed from riding on Shabbos. So riding in the elevator is already a problem. Additinally, and this is what I meant by deriving benefits---the "power" is on and the buttons don't have to be pushed. Seems like an earthly loophole to religious proscription which if one truly believed would not even think of it.

Reminds me of a fellow who I knew when I was a teenager. He was very religious and on Shabbos he asked me to hold his money and get him the ice-creams or cigarettes as we walked along a Boardwalk in Rockaway. Seems analgous to the above.

Sorry to have made the thread drift out to sea but I thought this an interesting thing to mention.

It does not change my thoughts about the NAACP.'s misguided actions---I liked the comment above re: their leader shooting himself in the foot---which means he really will need that clinic.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:27 AM

I think it would be discrimination if the provider was forced to provide service on a day that is closed due to religious observance.

If I don't observe Sunday as a religious holiday, does that mean I can demand the doctor open his doors on Sunday to satisfy me? Absolutely not.

My local produce store is closed on Saturday because they are 7th Day adventists. Can I demand that they remain open on Saturday? No.

Nobody should be able to demand hours of service no matter what service they provide. As long as they are available on a regular basis with regular hours, what does it matter which day(s) they choose to close

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Ferrara
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:13 PM

Setting aside the question of what the heck is this guy thinking of, maybe it comes down to "how has the law dealt with this issue, WRT to other service organizations that receive public funding?"

If other clinics and public services that receive public funding are required to provide it on a schedule that is convenient for clients, then the case may hang on the definition of "convenient." Not much use to NAACP members, though, if the clinic is closed.

If the clinic is forced either to close or to provide a level of accessibility that other organizations receiving public funding aren't required to provide, that does seem to me to be "discrimination" against the clinic for being run by observant Jews. And a rotten situation if it happens.

Does anyone reading this thread know the law regarding public funds, or how it is applied in cases like this? Or does it make any difference?

Well Sol you asked how other people view it. That's my excuse for running on like this.... Either way I think the guy is shooting his membership in the foot. Too bad it's not his foot....

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:07 PM

Bill--
Also, please note that Mt. Sinai is a Jewish hospital--why shouldn't they make it convenient for their constituents?

A Shabbos elevator is programmed to automatically stop @ each floor; this overrides the manual controls so that people don't have to generate electricity by pressing the buttons.There is a sign telling which is the specific elevator so that observers will know which one to use & others won't think that that person is violating the Shabbos.

Regards,
Fay

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:46 PM

This is Scanner. I just came downstairs to visit Sol in his office & he showed me this thread.

Bill, re: Shabbos elevator thought. The religious laws were not put up especially to inconvenience people, therefore it is not proper to regard modern ways to alleviate the inconveniences as hypocrisy. Besides it is a mitzvah to visit the sick, especially on Shabbos when it is less likely that people would be able do it(because of family obligations, walking distances, etc.
There are certain laws that are especially set up as inconveniences; such as fast days-- no eating, washing, sexual activity for 26 hours at a time.

Regards,
Fay

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:45 PM

Hi Bill,
         The name for the ambulance service is Hatzalah which is the Hebrew word for rescue. The Hatzalah operates 24/7 because it is involved in the immediate task of saving lives as is a hospital emergency room. A clinic on the other hand is like a private doctors office which does not handle emergency life or death situations. That is why it is not permitted to operate on the Sabbath. A life saving emergency situation trumps the Sabbath. A non-emergency convenience does not.

                                                    SOL

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:30 PM

Linda: My question as well re: hospitals vis a vis the clinic. I think, however, that you will find that hospitals schedule staffs so as not to conflict with "observances". I admit I find the things like "Shabos Elevators" (Mt Sinai and others like that) a bit disconcerting. But that comes from a feeling of morality with regard to hypocrisy---in other words, deriving the benefit from something you should be abstaining from if you truly believe.   

The clinic, I believe, is in a different position. From the description it seems to be staffed by people of faith and doing it on a moral and dedicated basis.   It is not a hospital--which is always available as I stated earlier.   

Unlike Sol I am not totally versant in the rules--which I, frankly, feel were created many many moons ago and as all things have to progress. I do recall that doing a good deed---A Mitvah---is rewarded. The Volunteer Ambulance Corps (I do not recall the name) also run by Jewish Volunteers operates 24/7 as does the one in Bklyn. that I do know of.

Having said that I can see where a case can be made for keeping the clinic open if the NAACP were to invoke that argument. If they do I do also believe that they would be showing their total hypocrisy in the matter since :

a) hospitals are available
b) they do not offer any medical help for their members--so why is it incumbent upon the Jewish clinics to do so.

Sadly- this is exactly what causes division. A lawsuit or a confrontation by someone who is, basically, a spoiler and who knows for what reason. Other than self aggrandizement.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 01:37 PM

I get my information from The Journal News. As soon as they report an update I will inform everyone. However, as everyone knows, the wheels of justice turn ever so slowly.

Linda,
       The very highest Rabbinnical authorities were consulted on this case, both here and in Israel and all were in unanimous agreement that Hoffman should close down the clinic rather than violate the Sabbath.

                                                SOL

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 12:12 PM

So where is the update? It is nearly two months since the suit was filed.   Is it proceeding? Is there more to this story?

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Linda Goodman Zebooker
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 12:01 PM

In the eyes of the religious authority, why is the clinic different from a religiously-affiliated hospital, which of course is able to provide coverage every day? Why could this clinic not be open as needed, under the same guidelines - with the compromise suggested by Hoffman? Which rabbinic authority is it? Is there any appeal to another, or reconsideration available from them?

It seems to me the suit involves religious discrimiation-- the religious laws are what they are and can't be violated -- but it is attempting to get the community better served. Transit on Sunday is often very poor - busses running once an hour, or not at all, for example. Evening travel could be dangerous.

Surely public funding can't determine everything, though. A religious group which provides a good service to people, almost none of whom belong to the group itself, should be welcomed, and left alone. But I hope a compromise is still possible.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:15 AM

Only if they are run by the Spring Valley NAACP, Bruce. Fair is fair, after all.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 05:16 AM

If this suit is successful, can I start sueing all the clinics NOT open 24/7? I work during the day, and it seems a real problem that they are not open at midnight when it would be convenient to go...

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 06:56 PM

I get a little tired of folks slagging off on lawyers. Our own Midchuck took some time to explain from a lawyer's knowledge and I appreciate it. Lawyers help us to protect our laws, our well-being, our property, and, in some cases, our children, etc. There are good/bad, decent/rotten in all professions, so, imo we do NOT need an "open season" on lawyers.

Bunnahabhain, if you meant it tongue-in-cheek, my apologies. If not, here's mud in yer eye! (So sue me!**bg**)

kat

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 06:13 PM

What a farce! This is one of the silliest and most counterproductive, anttention seeking cases I've heard of in a long time. A clinic open until 9 pm most nights is making great efforts of be easily acessable, and deserves praise for it, not suits.

There is a solution to the litigious society. An open season on lawyers. Year round. It's not as if they have a defined breeding season or anything....

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Peace
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 12:57 PM

A courting we will go
A courting we will go
Hi ho the dairy-o
A courting we will go

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:42 AM

ah, the INFINITE joys of living in a multi-cultural society!

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 07:44 AM

We have these frivolous lawsuits, because any lawyer can commence a lawsuit at any time. Actually, any person with the filing fee can commence one.

There are three factors that should operate to filter out frivolous suits. None of them are functioning properly in our (US) system.

1) Believe it or not, codes of legal ethics forbid an attorney from starting a suit unless he/she believes, after investigation, that there is a sound legal and factual basis for it. Obviously, a great many lawyers are hungry or greedy enough to ignore these provisions. Plus, the courts go out of their way to make accomodations for "pro se" plaintiffs, so they won't appear to be biased against the poor. And pro se plaintiffs have no one to operate as a nonsense filter.

2) Lawyers cost money, in case you didn't notice. One would expect that suits by nutcases would at least be limited to wealthy nutcases. The innovation of contingent fees (the lawyer gets nothing if he loses; if he wins or settles, he gets a percentage, most often a third - which can be much more than his bill would be on an hourly basis, if there's a major recovery.) This fee system has done a lot of good. It's given people without much money, who have been wrongly injured, access to the legal system when they wouldn't have it, or would be limited, at best, to an overworked and underpaid legal aid attorney, otherwise. It's also, however, given people without much common sense access to the legal system, when they find a lawyer who doesn't have much common sense either, or is greedy enough to override it.

3) Judges have the authority to throw out lawsuits that they find to be frivolous, early on. They just almost never do it. This is because if they do, the plaintiff can appeal to a higher court at that point. Judges like to avoid having parties appeal their decisions, because if their decisions are overturned by a higher court, it makes them look like bad judges. So they'd rather see all their cases settled than decide them, because a case that is settled never results in an appeal. (Well, hardly ever - sometimes a party will come in later and claim he agreed to the settlement without really having been informed what was going on. But not often.) So a judge who should be yelling at the plaintiff, "Get out of my courtroom, you fool!" will , instead, be browbeating the defendant to make an offer of settlement.

And so it goes.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 09:42 PM

And there---Greg F--- we have the definition of a litiious society and hedline grabbing.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 09:28 PM

Guess what is considered a "frivolous lawsuit" depends on whose ox is being gored, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 09:12 PM

The only similarity between the 2 cases is that the same Attorney, Roman P. Storzer is representing both, the clinic and the Shabbos House. Otherwise, Bill Hahn is right. These are 2 separate and distinct issues, totally unrelated.

                                                 SOL

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: katlaughing
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 08:38 PM

When I was growing up in CO, nothing was open on Sunday except for one or two gas stations and restaurants. Anyone who needed some medical service, either went to hospital or suffered until Monday. I don't see why gov. funding should dictate hours of service, esp. weekend hours.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 07:59 PM

Your point being?? HEre we are talking apples and oranges or other incongruities. One has nothing to do with the other at all. Even, as I said not as a lawyer, the difference in the issues is quite different.

While I cannot read the mind of the plaintiffs in this one==the one we are discussing here--I do feel it has more more to do with what I stated in the last note. The other suit---which, I add, I sided with the zoning issues involved about transients---is a horse of a different color. Probably a bad choice of words here---but that is what we are talking about. That and making some headlines.

Always remember---and it would save much litigation---WWGS.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:57 PM

Bill-

You mean like the frivolous lawsuit detailed (HERE) being brought to overturn zoning regulations, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:39 PM

Jeri: There are times when these discussions---and seeing your earlier post made me think of it---become the scene in Marx Bros. films where Groucho and Chico engage in a discussion in which each is talking next to the other---but Chico at all times knows he is conning Groucho.

       Bottom line to all this---the courts will have to sort it out since, as I said earlier, anyone can bring a suit. No matter how frivolous. I believe to be just that or worse---a try by Mr Troutman for some notoriety at the expense of others.   That the local chapter of the NAACP goes along with it is a sad thing.   

       His complaints can be answered with two names---Good Samaratin Hospital and Nyack Hospital.   All open 24/7. No one is denied medical care but sometimes what you want is not available and you have to go elsewhere. That is what the two above facilities are about.   OK---you are not going to geet an eye exam on Saturday because that is when you want it---so---wait for Sunday when the clinic is open.   

       We live in a capitalistic society in which we all have choices. The very wealthy can buy a physician for a price---as other things. The others of us will have to make do as best we can. Happily we have safety nets and facilities that do cater to all.

      So---where oh where am I going to get that pint of Vodka at 9AM on Sunday morning since the hangover has worn off.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 03:48 PM

It appears that, since there are no physicians (at least) available to work on Saturday, the choice is to operate 6 days per week (and Saturday after sundown) or have the government funds taken away and not operate at all. I expect that Mr. Troutman's constituency would really appreciate that...and probably he has an agenda that has nothing whatever to do with access to medical care.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 03:08 PM

Sorry. I was the only person you directly addressed, so I thought you were talking to me and I was a bit shocked and angry because of it. I was saying the 'crap', what you SAID, was idiotic, stupid and prejudgemental, but apparently, you weren't referring to me in that last paragraph either, just a hypothetcal 'you', of which I'm a part. Hypothetically.

As for the 'picking on' comment, I was joking. I was upset about what I thought you had assumed about me, and I was trying to sound less so. I perceive so many 'mixed messages' from people these days that I'm never quite sure who's trying to get a dig in and who just accidentally landed a punch. I agree, it's very hard to tell who your friends are these days.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:49 PM

First off, take a goddamn breath. I wasn't attacking you. In rereading my post I suspect that you were taking the second paragraph and third paragraph to be about your contention. The second para was referring to there being another agenda by Troutman, and the religious issue being a case of NAACP v the Jewish organization running the program.;

I'm not picking on you, but I am arguing a point. Learn the difference before someone accuses you of being idiotic, stupid, and prejudgemental. Sometimes its hard to tell who your friends are. SHEESH.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 01:30 PM

"You may not like religious organizations running these things..."

Mick, where the... where did THAT little bit of idiotic, stupid, pre-judgemental crap come from? Rhetorical question. I don't care if religious organizations run clinics. Everybody loves St. Jude's. There are tons of Catholic hospitals serving communities. They have emergency room and intensive care wards and operating rooms that are open on Sundays. This isn't about relition so much as a business that may not be providing the service that their government funding may expect them to provide. You're barking up the wrong rope. Go pick on somebody else.

If the NAACP can prove that access to the clinics by the people the clinics are being paid to serve is limited by their operating hourse, they are going to win. If they can't, they aren't. My opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Big Mick
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:29 PM

Might be your opinion, Jeri, but it is my opinion it doesn't hold water. It is far too general. This is a clinic. There is no obligation for this to be open 7 days, or even any specific 5 days. In fact, I would bet there are many clinics that are only open something less than 5 days.

You may be right that the relationship between race and religion might be strong, but it appears to me to be the reverse of what you suggest. I will bet money that there is something that isn't being said here. My guess is that Troutman wants control of funding for some other purpose, perhaps to start a different clinic under his control. I don't know for sure, but my guess is that the whole story isn't being told. He knows that he can attack on a principle that the Jewish community cannot give on, and create the issue.

You may not like religious organizations running these things, but often they are the only ones that will step up. If this was a non relgious organization running it Monday through Friday, offering free or low cost health care services, two things would be true. One, folks would find the way to get there during regular hours. Two, not a peep would be heard out of anyone.

IMO.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:17 PM

If the clinics were run by Chistians, they would likely be open on Sundays, IF the people they provided service to needed them to be open, if they were required to provide emergency services. If they strictly observed Sunday as a day of mandatory rest, the clinics would likely hire someone who didn't mind working on Sunday. If they refused to hire someone who'd work on a Sunday, because that person didn't share in their religious beliefs, they'd probably be sued for religious descrimination.

My opinion is that if a business receives federal money to provide a service to a community, they need to provide that service. If their religion limits their ability to provide the service get the money for, they shouldn't receive the federal funding. If it's a case of them not being required to be open for emergency services or when the members of the community they serve are most able to use their services, it's a grey area.

I don't know if effective business practices affect whether businesses get government funding or not. I think they should, since it seems a likely way for a business to not have to deal with people they prefer not to deal with and still get paid.   

I don't think they're discriminating against non-whites directly. The race component is secondary to the religious one, but I think the relations ship between race an religion may be strong enough in this case.

Since the clinics are getting government money to provide medical and dental services to the community, if the NAACP can prove the community members are prevented from obtaining services because the the clinics are closed, I believe the NAACP will likely win.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Peace
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:05 PM

Sol can't read or post here until later today. FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 11:19 AM

Maybe the NAACP could then sue the churches for restricting access to Sunday medical care?

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 04:44 AM

I'm pretty much against silly religious rules (as distinct from not so silly ones) but it's hard to see why opening Sunday in stead of Saturday is discrimination.

Mind you I don't think I've ever seen a Jewish lawyer refuse to work Friday evening (other than for special religious events) but I have had to argue for a client that they could not respond to a pressing issue in some litigation because of the Sabbath - the issue never got judicially resolved.

However, if there was much less public transport on the Sunday, the very underprivileged who had to use public transport might feel this was a bit of a catch-22 in that one religion leads to them being in difficulty getting to the service on the Sunday while the other says they can't have it on the Saturday, but this is unlikely to apply to those in work, who will likely be able to afford a car and, and those who aren't in work can go Monday to Friday.

I think I'm for the doctors in this one.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: mrdux
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 02:04 AM

sol --

i just don't think there is anything discriminatory about the clinic's operating schedule. and i agree that the answer is probably found in the contract under which it receives the public funding, which, i suspect, doesn't compel any particular operating hours or days. if the clinic simply decided not to open on sunday, and operated as a monday-friday business, could there possibly any claim of discrimination? would troutman, in that case, be able to demand with a straight face that the clinic open saturday but permit it to stay closed on sunday? seems awfully strained to me.

michael

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 06:10 PM

I think it possible that the NAACP will not be able to get the case to the US Supreme Court. It will be tossed out prior to reaching it. The issue is one of convenience. Not one of accessibility. Regardless of where the funds come from, service is still available. Unless the dental offices are in breach of their initial agreement, well, they have done nothing wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:42 PM

Actually they are all in a stupor in the lobby from the week when the spirits were available so they sleep in the lobby and cannot lobby much

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: NAACP vs. Shabbos in Spring Valley, NY
From: Peace
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 05:26 PM

I figured with so much support in the White House . . . .