BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 11:11 AM

I'm quite glad they don't allow guns over here in England, but I do enjoy film with Americans shooting at each other - The Godfather, westerns, Die hard, and stuff like that. Keep it up chaps!

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 10:54 AM

Rap,

Google up "Number of Americans Shot Every Year"... This figure is 100% accurate... You are using "murders" rather than "Shot"... This information ain't hard to find... If your Google-ator ain't Googlin' then let me know and I'll find some sources...

Oh, Google "Brady Bill Gun Control"... That oughtta get you where you need to go...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 10:09 AM

Careful, Musket. ;-) They who bang rocks may turn to throwing rocks presently.

There are relatively few gun deaths per capita in Canada (if you leave out suicide)...fewer than in the USA...but I think it's more because of a difference in culture....cultural ideas and expectations... than because of a difference in laws. The whole domestic history of Canada has been sedate and orderly, whereas the history of the USA has revolved around periods of lawlessness (such as in the territories, prior to statehood, for example). It's a different psychology, you see, and it has produced a population with different attitudes.

In the development of Canada, the RCMP (Mounties) and the rule of law always went into frontier territories first and established a very consistent rule of law. The immigrants then followed. There was no chance for gunslingers, whiskey traders, and bandit gangs to establish themselves in the new territories. In the USA, however, the territories before statehood were basically in a state of anarchy, and every sort of organized vice and violence moved into the vacuum and flourished. This tended to produce a culture with much violence, and the law came a good deal later and then tried to cope with the violence.

Look at the history of Prohibition in the USA, and the explosion of organized crime and violence that that produced! During the same period Canada had legal alcohol...and did not suffer the wave of crime that swept across the USA.

The USA seems to have had a tendency on the one had toward extreme laissez-faire lack of legal order...and then extremely puritan over-reaction in the other direction, as evidence in the completely stupid idea of Prohibition, an idea which couldn't possibly succeed in a culture where most people WANT to drink alcohol.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 09:58 AM

Bobert, where did you get your figures?

According to the news, the old guy seemed "excited" about moving. "Excited" how? As in "agitated"?

As for too many people being shot by cops, well -- the US government doesn't collect such statistics. Very incomplete stats for 2012 show 587 people killed by cops. Other articles seem to show that many or most of those killed by police are mentally ill. The police do have non-lethal methods and they should be used first if at all possible. Too many cops seem to have the "badge & gun" syndrome.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: gnu
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 08:48 AM

A footnote to my post above. Z's ex went to Z's house "unexpectedly". She changed her story after the police investigated at the scene. Police found no gun on Z and found her father uninjured. She refused to have police arrest him for domestic violence. She and her father have refused to file charges. There's more but I think the thread should address the OP.

Sorry for the interruption.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: GUEST,Musket being patriotic
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 07:25 AM

But we already have strict gun laws?

Oh. Sorry. Wrong country. Can't help you there.

Keep banging the rocks together.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Sep 13 - 12:00 AM

And, the way I heard it, the supposed hostages had already escaped...

But fuck that...

Ya' know, there are way too many people being killed by cops... Happens around Charlotte at least once a month... Guy comes out of a house and "makes a threatening move" and bang-bang-you're-dead... That's the way it always is... Details at 11...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 11:51 PM

I didn't say "killed", Rap... My stats are correct...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 11:48 PM

Exactly what I was thinking, Suzy. Just leave the old guy alone for a day, don't bother him, wait for him to calm down, and wait for a safe opportunity to remove the gun without hurting anyone. That would be the sensible thing to do, seems to me. All it would require was a little patience. I think he was probably reacting the way he did, simply because he was scared.

Jack - Pine Bluff? Where is Pine Bluff and what is its significance?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Suzy Sock Puppet
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 11:28 PM

Yup Little Hawk. Busybodies and control freaks. There's always a way around everything but not if people insist that others, especially those who may be impaired in some way or otherwise at a disadvantage, do what they say when they say it. That's the mentality of people who beat children, elderly people or the handicapped when they assert their wills.

I suppose the world would have come to an end if the poor old guy had been allowed to stay in his room and the decision to force him to leave had been deterred to a later time after the situation had deescalated. 107 years old and those people couldn't cut him slack? Police had no choice? Bullshit. There were a lot of choices here. No Plan B?

Calling the police in to handle a situation with a friend or relative is who obviously in a state of mental and emotional distress is surely one of the most ignorant, heartless things one could do. It's nothing I would have ever done. I would have let him win the standoff. Then I would have remained vigilant for an opportunity to get the gun in the near future. Don't know if I could have pulled off this course of action but I would have tried.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 11:25 PM

Ah, Bobert -- the Centers for Disease Control's statistics show 11,078 homicides by firearms in 2010, or 3.6 per 100,000 of the population. For all homicides, the numbers are 16,259, or 5.3 per 100,000.

There were 19,392 firearms suicides, or 6.3 per 100,000; suffocation suicides were 9293, or 3.1 per 100,000; suicides by poison, 6,599 or 2.1 per 100,000. In all, there were 38,364 suicides, or 12.4 per 100,000 -- making suicide the number 10 cause of death in the US.

According to the CDC, the 15 leading causes of death in the US in 2010 were:

1. Diseases of heart (heart disease)
2. Malignant neoplasms (cancer)
3. Chronic lower respiratory diseases
4. Cerebrovascular diseases (stroke)
5. Accidents (unintentional injuries)
6. Alzheimer's disease
7. Diabetes mellitus (diabetes)
8. Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome and nephrosis (kidney disease)
9. Influenza and pneumonia
10. Intentional self-harm (suicide)
11. Septicemia
12. Chronic liver disease and cirrhosis
13. Essential hypertension and hypertensive renal disease (hypertension)
14. Parkinson's disease
15. Pneumonitis due to solids and liquids

Homicide (assault) dropped from the Top 15 for the first time since 1965. There were 40,393 drug-related deaths, 25,692 alcohol-related deaths, and 31,672 non-fatal injuries due to firearms.

Wikipedia has a table world firearms deaths, but it is all too often "incomplete" data or data combined from several years or data from years other than 2010. Yes, some countries have data for 2010, but unless we can compare all the comparison would be invalid.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 10:50 PM

Do we need stricter gun laws???

Ask the 100,000 Americans who were shot last year or the 100,000 Americans who will be shot this year and next year...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 09:52 PM

I have a friend, Ebbie, who will soon be 90. He sleeps with a loaded .45 automatic by his bed. It comforts him, because it's the same one he carried in the Pacific as a Marine in WWII, on Peleliu (Bloody Nose Ridge) and Okinawa among other places. He hasn't fired it in years, and yes, he has PTSD and no, he won't be treated for it. After all, he is a Marine.

Audie Murphy slept with the light on and a .45 by his bed from the time he left the service until the time he died.

I know far, far too many veterans of Vietnam, Gulf I, OIF, OEF, and Afghanistan who do the same thing.

Was this man a veteran of WWII? He could have been a career soldier, sailor or Marine. Is that why he had a gun, because of the war in his mind? Or did he listen to the news and thought that a firearm was his only protection?

Perhaps, if we lowered the level of violence in our world...perhaps if humanity actually became humane...but violence sells movies and video games and television shows.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricter gun laws?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 09:46 PM

There has to be a better way to respond to situations such as this than to send out trigger happy Wyat Earp swat teams! With proper understanding and negotiation the results may have been different! "Shoot first and ask questions later" is the folly of fools!

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 08:30 PM

I gather from what it says that the owner of the house had invited him to live there with her (perhaps temporarily?) and then a month later found an apartment for him to which she expected him to move.

Calling a 107-year-old person 'elderly' is somewhat of a misnomer, at least in today's parlance. Any person over a hundred years old is OLD and is probably weak in the cognitive department. Not that it can't be otherwise: an aunt of mine died at 104 and by all accounts at her death was as mean as ever. But generally speaking.

However, I agree with one thing: A 107-year-old person has no business with a gun. Wonder if his "roommate" knew he had one?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 07:12 PM

Tell Chongo if he is willing to do that, I'll pay for the bullets and a bus ticket to Pine Bluff. Heck, I'll even make the 911 call.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 06:33 PM

"Well, it's not that hard to understand why a 107 year old man would wish to remain in the home he was accustomed to living in."

According to the article, he had lived there about a month. With that kind of judgement he should not ave been able to buy a gun. IMHO.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 06:01 PM

Indeed, gnu. That's what your neighborhood SWAT team is for, after all. When you're ready to go, just phone them up and say, "There's a maniac in my place! He's got a gun, and he's threatening to kill the whole neighborhood! Please hurry!"

Then just wait for them to arrive. I expect Chongo will resort to this one day when he gets too old to bust heads, romance dames, and drive fast cars.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 05:42 PM

Gee... I didn't even read about the old fellah. Maybe I do have an alternative for assisted suicide when it's my turn. I mean, if they are still so screwed up in the head as to not help me f and when I want help going out in a humane way, this might be worth invesigating. I mean, why waste ammo eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 05:15 PM

Couldn't a negotiator have been found, an experienced professional, to talk gently to the old man and try to calm him? He was probably terrified, confused and extremely defensive. Was it really necessary to blast him to bits in such a barbaric way? Poor old soul, I hope he's at peace now.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: gnu
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 05:09 PM

"Shellie Zimmerman was asking that her husband pay for a permanent life insurance policy with her named as the beneficiary, according to a divorce petition made public last week."

"Last month, Shellie Zimmerman, 26, pleaded guilty to a misdemeanour perjury charge for lying about the couple's finances during a bail hearing following her husband's arrest after Martin's shooting."

Both from CBC news.

Hahahahahaa! Let's convict him again without due process. And, if he is found innocent in a court of law, let's not wait to read the trial transcript... let's just hang him anyway.

Re gun laws, hell yeah! Re lynch mobs? Fuck no!

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 05:03 PM

Well, it's not that hard to understand why a 107 year old man would wish to remain in the home he was accustomed to living in, and why he got defensive about it. If he hadn't had a gun, of course, they'd have busted down the door and taken him somewhere else by force. From his point of view, the way it turned out might have been what he'd have preferred, all things considered. (although that's hard to say after the fact)

He over-reacted. Many seniors become very uncooperative when being asked to move from their home, and I can understand why.

What does it have to do with enacting stricter gun laws? You can make all the laws you want, but this sort of thing can still happen, seems to me.

If it was Indians, back in the traditional times, they'd have left the old man alone to live wherever he wanted to. We live in a society of busybodies now.

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: Elmore
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 04:16 PM

Do we need stricker gun laws? Hell, I don't know. They just bagged George Zimmerman for threatening his estranged wife and his father- in- law with a gun. Should the police take his gun away?

Subject: RE: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 02:20 PM

please pardon title typo.

Subject: BS: Do we need stricker gun laws?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Sep 13 - 02:19 PM

107 year old man, Suicide by SWAT?