It's Our Little Club (comment)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:29 PM

"Perhaps you could ring up the editors of English Dance and Song, Ruth and get them to do a feature on it shortly.... "

Good lord. On so many levels.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:29 PM

Mrs. Route, you have come to folk music late in your life.

I was going to Ireland in the 60's when the Irish were ignoring their traditional music.

I am half-Scottish. My mother was born in the Orkney Islands. The Scots ignored their traditional music for decades.

The reason folk music has had a great revival in these countries was because it had been oppressed.

So Ruth and Diane and all the others who write on these boards including me are all part of a movement to oppress English folk music, so it will rise again.

And to all the correspondents who have been keeping this secret from Mrs. Route all this time and on this and other message boards I am sorry - I just couldn't put up with her ignorant ramblings any longer.

See Mrs Route, we are oppressing folk music in England like it was in Scotland and Ireland to ensure its revival. Now surely that is not too difficult a concept for you?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:20 PM

If there is a Folk Police, they're doing a lousy job. Now, on the other hand, the Pop Police have succeeded beyond all expectations in eliminating traditional music from the radio, television and even from many folk festivals.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 08:10 PM

>>If you read the recent issue of English Dance and Song, you'd know the answer to this question: pouring several million pounds a year into traditional artforms. Funding a new centre for traditional music in Dublin. Acknowledging within government the significance of Irish traditional culture, both for its inherent value and for the economic benefit it brings through tourism.

That's what.<<<


Hmmmm....but it's deeper than just money isn't it. The Irish LOVE their music. It's 'in their blood'....like the Scots...Back to 'Roots' here....damn it...and Show of Hands too! Sorry about that chaps....just kind of happened... ;0)

ROOTS


The Irish had it always, the love of their music, they've never let it go, neither have the Scots. It's The English who should be pouring money into it...They don't though....although.....

You know....it's such a shame that more of you weren't behind 'Roots' in a way..because that song has the power to change many attitudes about English music, dance, traditions and heritage. Who knows, if it had been 'allowed' out on mainstream radio, it may even have reached the ears of some politicians, who may have been moved to do something about it all, by putting money into the right kind of English Culture...

But nope....because it was a song from Show of Hands...down flew the vultures.....kicking and screaming....

Ah well...

Far better to some, to never miss an opportunity to put the boot into SoH I suppose, rather than support a song that has the power to support English Tradition and Song....

Perhaps you could ring up the editors of English Dance and Song, Ruth and get them to do a feature on it shortly....

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:51 PM

Oh Dave..you can insult deeper than that surely?

I've written about more acts than you've thrown insults at me...I've only written about Seth on here recently though...and Show of Hands..but then...heck..it's getting excitin' an' all..Easter not far away now and their RAH gig just around the corner!

>>>>Ever been to IVFDF?<<<<

Good Lordy...I'm already blessed with two children! But thanks for the offer Dave! ;0)

Sorry...humour creeping in there, I do so apologise...

OK..serious face again...after all this IS folk music...

>>>>So tell us about the events you have organised and how they have contributed to the inspiration of young people. Or do you simply gush?<<<<

I gush. But not simply. I gush...Overwhelmingly! :0) And I have been known, on the very odd occasion, to inspire, just now and again....That's what I do Dave...Gush...I have a Degree in Gushing....but it was folk music that made me Gush...never Gushed before anywhere...

I don't organise...Hopeless at that...but I do always try and support folk that do....hence I gush about Beautiful Days, Dartmoor Festy, Otley Festy, Britfolk, Sidmouth, Folkwaves etc..etc...etc...That's my contribution...Or at least...it was...

I won't tell you about my Seth Gush going on another site then 'cos you'll probably blow a gasket....or being asked by someone else to gushfor them either....Woops! ;0) (Don't panic, I told them I was unable to at present, but I was very chuffed to be asked) Haven't you got any Folk On Tap Dave? That was my favourite....Lovely magazine Folk on Tap...

Ruth...I'm very pleased that you're now helping to save Sidmouth, I really am. Shame you weren't around to tip-tap all about it a few years back....Heck, you could of joined me in fending off your pal Diane, who did so much to cause unrest and disruption about it all...A great shame. Still, at least this year you can tell everyone on the BBC all about it, on my behalf.

If you get stuck, there's 15,000 gushing words about Sidmouth 2005 on my Myspace page that you can refer to. I'll look forward to reading your review. I won't be writing about Siddy this year...or anything else...so the BBC could do with a few more words I expect.

>>But somehow your version of the folk world is its salvation, while mine is its destruction? Interestng logic, asd always.<<

Noooo..not at all....I never said that I'm 'saving the folk world'....ever....you said that. Besides....everyone knows Seth and Show of Hands are doing that.....John Tams too and Coope Boyes and Simpson and Bob Fox and Jez Lowe and Jim Moray and that gorgeous Jim Causley as well....and The Fabulous Witches and The Demons....

And I never said you're destroying it either, you said that...I just took exception to one thing you said about Show of Hands in that you'd 'rather have pins stuck in your eyes than listen to them'...And you've been on my back ever since..me deario....

Hope you've got your ear plugs and some stout goggles though....because Show of Hands are coming to Sidmouth this year. YIPPPPEEE!

And...I've no doubt they'll be the first to sell out at The Ham as well and bring in the crowds..of ALL ages! It's great to see that Show of Hands audience is getting more and more young people in it nowadays....Just like Seth, The Demon Barbers, Bellowhead et al...Show of Hands are the way forward.

:0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:45 PM

Good question Mrs Route.

What happened last time?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:21 PM

Wel,, lizzie, I don't sctually see evidence of them being kept away. As Dave says, there are are a hell of a lot of young people attending ceilidhs at the moment. Sheffield has a robust student cutlture that's into folk dance, as does Manchester. Maybe you need to get out of your region a little more to get the bigger picture. So these young peeople aren't being put off by a "supercilious, obsessive, train-spotter attitude"...maybe it's just you.

"So...what are the Irish doing right, that we're doing wrong then?"

If you read the recent issue of English Dance and Song, you'd know the answer to this question: pouring several million pounds a year into traditional artforms. Funding a new centre for traditional music in Dublin. Acknowledging within government the significance of Irish traditional culture, both for its inherent value and for the economic benefit it brings through tourism.

That's what.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bee
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:15 PM

I've not noticed the folkie population in NS to be particularly antique - plenty of young people. The Bluegrass crowd tends to be a bit older, but I've seen that changing in the past couple years: more young 'uns, sometimes with kidlets.

Tastes in music cycle, I suspect, like everything else in the world.

And I've not seen any particular 'bashing' of one performer over another, just discussion of likes and dislikes, and considerable argument over 'what is folk/trad/derived' and so on, which is the sort of musical argument that's been going on forever - ask Mozart's ghost. I imagine Bearkiller of the Third Cave From the River grumbled that Drumbeater's kids were adding funny noises to the Hunt Drums with their damn bone whistles, while others in the tribe dug the New Sound.

I have never met the Folk Police.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:11 PM

John, in my book, they should be worried....The Devil's Interval should be playing to a mixture of ALL ages....What's going to happen when the older audiences move on to er...elsewhere?

The mix isn't right in the English folk world. It needs far more young people in the audience...and one thing, I think, that keeps them away is the kind of supercilious, obsessive, train-spotter attitude that's certainly followed me around for years.

From Shaneo:
>>>>The annual fleadh cheoil in Ireland attracts half million people each year. With a mixture of traditional/folk music , it's the biggest concert in the world. If you have never been, come along and bring an instrument and join in with the many street bands.
This event has a hugh impact on keeping the tradition alive.
It's not just trad. music that's played , every corner of the street folk bands are entertaining the crowds .<<<<

Half a MILLION people? That's AMAZING!

So...what are the Irish doing right, that we're doing wrong then?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 07:00 PM

Well Mrs Route it looks as if you are getting close to dummy throwing time again.

I love people who write about folk music. I have magazines here within inches of where I am sat going back to 1961. Ballad and Song, Folk Roundabout, Folk Scene, Folk Review, EFDSS magazines, Chapbook, first ever edition of Living Tradition, etc. etc.

What people object to is repetitive writing, (Show of Hands, Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands, Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands Seth Lakeman Show of Hands, Seth Lakeman, Show of Hands Seth Lakeman): copywrite material being presented without acknowledgement (The Albion Chronicles); and people who are so far up their own arse they haven't got a clue.

That's all.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:57 PM

I'm sure your family has a steadfast and admirable dedication to folk music, Lizzie. Having said that, you, and by extension I presume your children, only discovered folk a couple of years ago, so it's not surprising they got a say in whether they wanted to go along to gigs. When my daughter was 6 months old, you see, she couldn't really express a preference. Of course, now she's 13, I got dragged along to an Emo gig a few months ago - payback's a bitch.

Yeah, shame on my folk world - where you do what you can to try and help. Shame on me. You've moaned about there not being enough young people at Sidmouth - I've explained that there are people, including me, who are trying to do something about it. But somehow your version of the folk world is its salvation, while mine is its destruction? Interestng logic, asd always.

The Elders are in your head, Lizzie. Look around you. Lots of people share their enthusiasms, without winding people up. It may serve you to believe that there is some self-appointed guard dedicated to keeping the likes of you out - but that's a convenient way of avoiding having to examine your own actions, and your own culpability, in this whole sorry mess.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:49 PM

Saw Kepa Junkera, Berenguetto and Susanna Seivane at Sidmouth just to mention 3 of my favourite Spanish bands. Fabulous bands loads of young people in to see them.

When I went to the LNE it was packed with young people. The last time was in 2004. I have not been since. LNE is probably a bit late for you to be out Mrs. Route.

I have noticed loads of young people at festival but they tend to dance nowadays instead of sitting and listening to people sing. It's the way of the world. Ever been to IVFDF? It was in Exeter in 2004. Surely that isn't far for you? The Sheffield event a year earlier was a huge sell out.

So tell us about the events you have organised and how they have contributed to the inspiration of young people. Or do you simply gush?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:40 PM

I take my kids because they want to go Ruth, not because I do or ever have needed babysitters. They're 12 and 20 now and come purely because they want to...and always have done.

Great to hear you're getting involved in Siddy too now Ruth. Well done!

But it so isn't MY folk world. I just made the horrendous error of liking folk music, then writing about it, without permission of The Elders.

It's YOUR world Ruth, not mine. But the music is mine.

My folk world is that of Show of Hands....and The Albion Chronicles.

They have No Rules of Engagement. No silences. No Handbooks. No Unpleasantness. No spitefulness.

Just warmth, a thousand paths to go down, open minds and open hearts...

Helluva difference to what goes on in here...and on the BBC.

Shame on 'your' folk world.

If it doesn't change...it may eventually self-destruct.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:39 PM

Chris, I was there 92-93. Was there for the closing of the Arts Centre and the move to the Guildhall. Sang with Chris Edwards for a while, if that helps. Had friends in the Rykneld Rabble and sat on many a concert and festival door selling tickets with my daughter in her pram next to me!

She was usually wearing a pink hat, if that helps...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:28 PM

"I wish they'd let down their fence of 'English Traditional' etc and open up"

Ummm, we ARE talknig about the same Sidmouth, right? The one that was, until 2 years ago, Sidmouth INTERNATIONAL Festival? That has welcomed scores of dance sides and artists from all over the world?

Things may have changed, but Sidmouth 2007 lineup includes:
Quinteto Mambojambo
Bollywood Brass Band
Salsa Celtica
Okavango
Monobloco

Not to mention all the Welsh, Irish and Scottish music on offer...

The English Traditional fence at Sidmouth seems as much a mirage as the folk police...

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: John Routledge
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

Heard a wonderful performance by Devil's Interval a couple of weeks ago.

The youngest member of the audience was at least ten years older than the performers and the average age approaching treble that of the performers.

This fact did not seem to concern the singers or indeed the audience.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

The whole point of my post, Lizzie, is that there are tonnes of us who don't have any kind of "pedigree" who are rubbing along just fine - not excluded, not outcast, but welcomed.

There are also loads of us trying to make folk more accessible to young people. You want to see more young people at Sidmouth Folk Week? Well, you're not the only one. We're working on that at the moment, as it happens - and not just on getting them involved during the festival, but giving kids local to you more opportunities all year round to engage with folk music. That's what us "folk police" get up to in our spare time. I'm sure that you, too, could be helping the cause, should you choose to get out there and get involved.

Who says taking your kids to see folk acts is against the rules? My daughter's been going to gigs and festivals since she was tiny. Loads of folkies take their kids to gigs - it's cheaper than babysitters, after all. Once again, your "folk world" seems to be a parallel universe to the one most of us are experiencing.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:19 PM

>>I'm sorry but I don't think that the main priority of folk fans should be to attract 'young people' into folk - and especially not by dumbing it down in order to make it more 'acceptable'. I find this attitude to be not only patronising and insulting to me and my contemporaries but it is also patronising and insulting to young people<<<


If you don't attract the young people and 'pass it on' then it will die. And young people want to make it their own. It's not dumbing it down. Seth Lakeman is not dumbing music down, far from it,imo. He's making it vibrant, exciting, danceable..all things that so many young people love. They don't want to have it plain, the way some may sing it. They want it with rhythm and dance and excitement. Not all, but a great deal of them at least.

That's not dumbing it down at all. It's just being young.

I saw Devil's Interval last year at Siddy and they were great. But do you know one of the things that made them so lovely to watch? It was Jim...Jim Causley has charisma. He was such charm, that young lad..he's got 'it'...He makes traditional music FUN...he laughs and he's relaxed. It's obvious that he enjoys what he does and that enjoyment reaches out into the audience..

BUT...the audience was all middle aged and beyond. There weren't any youngsters in that room, apart from the three singers...and that saddened me..and enraged me too, because The Devil's Interval should be playing to people of their own age as well.

The folk world has to wake up to this problem.

One way round it is to mix folk music up with more popular music, spread the audience wider, like Cambridge does..that way so many more people will 'give folk a try' I wish that Sidmouth would do this, I truly do...I wish they'd let down their fence of 'English Traditional' etc and open up....because if they do, you watch a far younger audience start to flood in..and when they come they'll taste the English Tradition as well, and some will love it.

Get rid of the 'club' and open up this world to all.......

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:13 PM

So, we're all agreed then?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Chris Murray
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:11 PM

Lichfield Arts Centre, Ruth?

Good grief, we must know each other! I still go regularly, only it's in the Guildhall now.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 06:00 PM

I'm in full agreement with whoever started this thread..(and no..it wasn't me) It's the one thing that worries me at so many gigs I go to (not Seth or Show of Hands, or The Demon Barbers or Bellowhead etc)...that there is hardly ever anyone under 40 in the audience...Sidmouth for instance, in my opinion, needs far more younger people to be drawn in.....and far more younger acts too.

But in answer to this comment...from Happy Go Lucky MacKenzie:


>>>When a person is unpopular, and is given a hard time, the majority of people change their outlook and try to fit in.<<<

Is that about an artist, or a particular poster I wonder? If it's about an artist...well why on earth should they change the way they are, purely because the Folk Police don't like them?

If it's about a poster...well...why on earth should they change the way they are, purely because the Folk Police don't like them?

And again....


>>>When a person is unpopular, and is given a hard time, the majority of people change their outlook and try to fit in.<<<

Really? Personally speaking I never run with the majority.

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing its best, night and day, to make you like everybody else, means to fight the hardest battle which any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." ~e.e. cummings

Here you go MacKenzie...a 'Traditional' Jewish proverb:

"If I try to be like him, who will be like me?"

Or..as Judy Garland said...

"Always be a first rate version of yourself, instead of a second rate version of someone else"

That's my girl! ;0)

Personally, I don't want Seth to be like Ewan MacColl...or Bellowhead to be like The Spinners...Nor do I want to be like you MacKenzie, or Ruth either...

Long Live Young Folkies, Open Minded Folkies, Non-Controlling Folkies.
Long Live Free Range Folkies and Free Range Human Beings..

From Ruth:

"I think the Folk Police are a myth. What I DO think is that when you go into any community with which you are not familiar, there are certain rules of engagement. Firstly, you do a lot more listening than talking for an awfully long time. You accept that you can learn a lot from the people around you, and you ingest that knowledge -"

The Folk Police are VERY real, but...they are getting less and less, as the younger generation moves them along...

Rules of engagement??????

Have the Folk Police now got Rules Of Engagement? Gadzooks! Are they now forming an army?

And WHO makes these Rules? Are they Traditional or Non-Traditional Rules?

Were they invented by the First Ploughboy Singer/Songwriter or by Ewan MacColl?

And exactly how long are you supposed to keep quiet for?

Heck..no-one told me I wasn't supposed to say ANYTHING!!!! I just heard the music, fell in love and started writing...

SILLY ME!!!! I didn't read The Terms Of Engagement!

Being a folkie is SOOOOOO complicated isn't it....No wonder I don't fit in! ;0)

Still at least my kids are always the youngest people at some gigs or folk clubs. At least my kids are the er...ONLY kids at some gigs and folk clubs....But nope..that's not part of the rules is it..taking your kids to see folk acts......because apparently I should be sitting in total silence somewhere, reading my "How to be a Masonic Folkie" Handbook, listening, taking notes, bowing and cowtowing, worshipping at The Holy Altar of Ancient Folk and generally being devout and demure...

I need to stop going to the gym. I need to get rid of the highlights, throw the make-up away, stop dancing, stop raving, stop writing, stop loving, stop listening..to the music at least..and just listen to the Folk Police instead...because they and they alone KNOW about folk music...and Crufts...and the right kind of Pedigree that one should have to be either a performer or a member of the audience...

Sheesh..How could I have been SO dumb!

However, things ain't going to change. I'll still love this music, and not bide by your rules or your regulations....because..It's my music too...

So there! :0)

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:41 PM

I'm sorry but I don't think that the main priority of folk fans should be to attract 'young people' into folk - and especially not by dumbing it down in order to make it more 'acceptable'. I find this attitude to be not only patronising and insulting to me and my contemporaries but it is also patronising and insulting to young people.

I have to agree with a lot of what Ruth Archer has written above, especially:

"I think the Folk Police are a myth. What I DO think is that when you go into any community with which you are not familiar, there are certain rules of engagement. Firstly, you do a lot more listening than talking for an awfully long time. You accept that you can learn a lot from the people around you, and you ingest that knowledge -"

Spot on, Ruth!

I also agree with RA's comments with regard to Eliza Carthy. Now there is an artist who is steeped in the tradition and is making a determined and credible effort to move it forward (it's debatable whether it needs moving forward - but there you go!). I don't necessarily like everything that Ms. Carthy does but I have enormous respect for her and I watch what she does with interest. If more of the younger people coming into folk were like Ms. Carthy, I, for one, would probably not be such a 'grumpy old git'!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: growler
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:04 PM

Although I'm a great Kate Rusby fan, it doesn't need her to attract the kids. Come down to Rochester, Kent on the first May bank Holiday, and watch them dance in the street.
Dont judge us as snobs, because we care about what we do, come along and join in, what ever your style, if your not prepared to play, or sing, along with the youngsters in my sessions, perhaps you should look to yourself

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Bainbo
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 04:02 PM

The Folk Police are not a myth!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Shaneo
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:51 PM

The annual fleadh cheoil in Ireland attracts half million people each year .
With a mixture of traditional/folk music , it's the biggest concert in the world.
If you have never been, come along and bring an instrument and join in with the many street bands.
This event has a hugh impact on keeping the tradition alive.
It's not just trad. music that's played , every corner of the street folk bands are entertaining the crowds .

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:46 PM

When a person is unpopular, and is given a hard time, the majority of people change their outlook and try to fit in.
Some people however are so self centred, that when someone has a go at them for being a twit they think. 'I'm perfect I am, I know everything I do, my taste is impeccable, there can't be anything wrong with me.
I know, it must be the people I like they're attacking, not me, what a load of plebs, they've got no taste. I mean it couldn't be me could it, I'm perfect aren't I ?'

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:43 PM

Hell, Ruth, my songs are closer to rock than they are to folk. I'm doing a folk festival in the summer, and I'll have a good time at it, too. My main job there is to ensure the audience enjoys itself, and that's that. If there are folk police, they missed me. Of course, I'm a colonial, so maybe things atre different here.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:36 PM

I'd also like to challenge, while we're at it, this idea that there's a "closed shop" around folk, and especially around traditional music.

I first started getting into folk, as I say, when I was 19/20. That was in California. Most of the folkies I knew at the time were Irish, and were very supportive when I tentatively started singing. Inevitably I started with some very accessible, pubby stuff, but people used to say, "Your voice would sound really nice singing this..." and give me cassettes with songs on that were more traditional. Was I insulted? Did I get the hump? Certainly not - I was grateful that people were sharing their superior knowledge with me. And I learned some great songs. My friend and I used to sing almost the whole of Silly Sisters - me doing the June Tabor harmonies and her doing Maddy! That was my first experience of English music.

Fast forward to the early 90s, when I had settled in England. My first real forays into the folk scene here were in Lichfield, via the Arts Centre and Arts Association. Again, I never encountered any snobbishness about the fact that I was American or that a lot of the music I sang was Irish - people were welcoming and inclusive and I have a lot to be grateful for in that respect. And again, I was consistently introduced to wonderful new music by lovely people who were not trying to "impose" their tastes on me, but instead sharing their knowledge and enthusiasm. I learned a lot. I also wanted to give something back and be more actively involved in supporting the music and the culture, so I started volunteering at events and started a session at a local pub. My involvement grew and deepened over time.

Fast forward to 2007, and I find myself writing in English Dance and Song magazine, running a festival and a folk development project for young people, and invited to join EFDSS's education advisory panel (among other folk-related bits and pieces). Nobody could be more surprised by all of this than me, to be honest. And nowadays, I'm often lumped in with the Folk Police by Lizzie. Given my background, I find this hilarious.

I think the Folk Police are a myth. What I DO think is that when you go into any community with which you are not familiar, there are certain rules of engagement. Firstly, you do a lot more listening than talking for an awfully long time. You accept that you can learn a lot from the people around you, and you ingest that knowledge - in my case, hungrily. I still learn so much from the people I'm lucky enough to have around me.

Secondly, you don't start trying to make the rules within a community or group that was established long before you arrived, nor should you obsessively impose your tastes on them. All of these behaviours are simply antisocial - and regardless of the hobby or enthusiasm in question, the person exhibiting such behaviours would probably be met with rather a cold shoulder.

Now, the easy response to this is to say that folk is a closed shop, and that there are "folk police" patrolling the gates. Well, the point of me sharing my potted history in folk is to say that, if that were really the case, there's no bloody way I'd ever have got in. I'm sure there are many others here who could say the same - we've all found our way here one way or another, and there's no one barring the door.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:30 PM

I really don't know what it's supposed to be.

Is it this kinda thing? If so, WTF IS it?

@>--;-- A rose
%-6 All Mixed Up
O:-) Angel
0*-) Angel wink - female
0;-) Angel wink - male
:-{ Angry
:-Z Angry face
:-{{ Angry Very
>:-( Annoyed
~:o Baby
~~\8-O Bad-Hair Day
d:-) Baseball
:-) Basic
:-{0 Basic Mustache


I never understood Gregg either.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:21 PM

A sign of a small vocabulary Peace?
G.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: My guru always said
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:19 PM

Looks like someone unhappy with a stuffed-up nose perhaps?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:16 PM

" :0( "

What the hell IS that?

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:15 PM

I'd comment...but...as I've been told so many, many times, this is not 'my club'


Lizzie :0(

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: gilly2
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:07 PM

There is nothing wrong with June Tabor though, my 22 year old and 25 year old daughter's appreciate some ( but not all of her music)
As well as all the others.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 02:01 PM

I was 19 when I heard June Tabor and Maddy Prior - they and an early Christy Moore cassette first brought me to folk. This was in the late 80s - not part of the folk revival, when this music was particularly fashionable, but I still knew it was good.

Let's not underestimate "young people" - they are as disparate a group, with as diverse tastes, as old people.

Personally, I don't have a problem with Seth Laeman or his success - the only issue I ever had was with his song being nominated in a category for which it clearly was not eligible. But as an artist, good luck to him.

Kate Rusby I was a fan of for a long time, but I didn't buy her last couple of CDs because what I heard of them was so stylistically similar to the others she'd made. Nothing against her - again, lovely and talented girl, there's a very big market for what she does, and all the best to her. I just got a bit bored.

Now, artistically someone like Eliza Carthy interests me far more than ether Seth or Kate at this point in all of their respective careers. Eliza has taken risks - some ventures have been more successful than others. But she has balls, and the music she makes manages to be both exciting, innovative, and rooted in the tradition. Look at her collaboration with Salsa Celtica on The Grey Gallito - inspired.

I understand she's currently working on a CD of original material (as she did previously with Angels and Cigarettes). I may like it, I may not; but I admire her for experimenting artistically without selling out, and while remaining one of the most exciting artists in any genre.

And if there is a discussion about that CD eventually, I may well say that I personally don't like it, that it's not to my taste. This is not "unsupportive", nor should it be seen as a personal attack on the artist; criticism and debate are healthy. It's when we are told we MUST like something, or that we are not allowed to enter into debate or criticism of any kind without being branded "moaning minnies" or subjected to some outdated stereotype about tankards and Aran jumpers, that people get pissed off and express more extreme views about some artists than they probably actually hold.

So yeah, there's room for everybody - and I have just as much right to discuss the things I DON'T like as someone else has to discuss the things they do.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,I STILL think I should post this as a GUEST!
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:57 PM

DMcG, I was trying to make a point about that there's room for everybody (even young 'upstarts' making a successful career out of it).

After many years as a card carrying folkie, I find June Tabor's voice a little too much for me.....much too much like hard work, music can (and should) be fun!

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Jim Lad
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:51 PM

Oh I think it's safe to say that I can get quite discombobulated when someone fails to live up to my expectations.
"Guilty", your honour.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: Peace
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:49 PM

Ignore the 'snobs' and enjoy what you like. No one ever slagged me for saying I like rock, folk-rock, trad, protest, jazz, whatever. And if someone does I tell 'em to take a flying leap to themselves. People like what they like. That's good enough for me.

Subject: RE: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: DMcG
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:46 PM

If a young person is trying to find their way in to folk and they hear Seth/Kate/Bellowhead/Julie Fowlis then it opens a door which may start them off on a journey; give them a June Tabor album and they'll run away and never listen folk again. There's room for everybody, even on Mudcat!

And, just to illustrate that all generalities are risky, my 20 year old is really just getting into folk, and MUCH prefers June Tabor to those listed above. People do differ, y'know!

Subject: It's Our Little Club (comment)
From: GUEST,I think I should post this as a GUEST!
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 01:37 PM

While "an observer" is being deliberately provocative, he (she?) has a point….

Mudcatters (in general) are music snobs; we like our music and will happily eulogise about it until the cows come home, or, to be more truthful until the artist becomes successful and manages to gain a little cross-over appeal to a wider market.
It's a shame that the latest successful artists (at present it's Seth Lakeman, but it's been Kate Rusby in the past), get ripped to pieces on Mudcat – we should all be ashamed.

Much as it seems worthy to support tiny festivals like Miskin do you think these events are going to keep folk music thriving? One look at the websites of these smaller festivals and photographs of the audience profile will give you your answer.

While the success of popular artists and the larger festivals may not be what Mudcatters' want to happen to folk music, without these there's no hope of bringing in a younger audience and keeping folk (in it's many forms) alive.

If a young person is trying to find their way in to folk and they hear Seth/Kate/Bellowhead/Julie Fowlis then it opens a door which may start them off on a journey; give them a June Tabor album and they'll run away and never listen folk again. There's room for everybody, even on Mudcat!

Subject: RE: IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB
From: skipy
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 05:40 AM

I was born out of wedlock so "bastard" yes, I run a folk festival, you are welcome to examine our books at any time, "robbing" I think not.
Now take folkiedave's advice or go and try to start an arguement somewhere else.
Hope you get better soon.
Skipy

Subject: RE: IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB
From: Folkiedave
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 05:27 AM

Go back to bed, try getting out the other side when you have had more sleep and eat fish oils rich in Omega 3.

Subject: IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB
From: GUEST,An Observer
Date: 11 Mar 07 - 05:24 AM

IT'S OUR LITTLE CLUB

Don't they understand, we don't want folk to be popular? We don't want the general public (halfwits) to be interested in OUR music. We hate anyone from the folk world who becomes popular enough to earn a living from OUR music. And we hate any music which isn't folk (and we will decide what IS folk). And we hate festival organisers, (robbing b*st*rds), we hate their concerts, don't want to buy their tickets, but we do want to camp on their festival site (for free). Then we can sit in a nice little pub listening to a lovely person about the size of a jumbo jet, singing, only slightly out of tune. A place where we can drink good ale and complain about how down trodden we are, how unfair the world is, and how THEY are trying to stop us singing in the bar. A place where we can be rustic, people of the earth, before going back to our well paid jobs in IT or HR.