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In the UK......? (thread title change complaint)
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: George Papavgeris Date: 12 Aug 05 - 03:48 PM Joe, Shambles is just a hypocrite. Don't elevate him to asshole status. Assholes have their uses.
-Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: Joe Offer Date: 12 Aug 05 - 03:30 PM You see, Roger, most of us are here to have a good time among friends. All of your adversarial crap is just that - adversarial crap. We volunteers do what we need to do to keep the peace and tidy things up. Nobody's out to offend your right to free speech - but if you insist on making an asshole of yourself, you're likely to be treated like an asshole. Basically, Mudcat is here for enjoyment - not for all this heavy stuff you try to lay on us. You want to play war games, and that's not what we're here for. No, I really can't defend our editorial actions, and I have no reason to defend anything to an idiot who can make such a big deal about the addition of three little words, "in the UK," to a thread title. We just try to do what we think is right, to make things run a little more smoothly around here. That's basically what Max asked us to do when he gave us editing buttons. And we volunteers don't pretend to sit in judgment over anybody here, as you so often contend. We're just here to deal with the problems. If that's not satisfactory to you, so be it. Tough shit, in other words. Nobody named you judge and jury. And despite your four-year campaign, you haven't been able to convince Max to crack down on us volunteers, have you? Doesn't that tell you something? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: katlaughing Date: 12 Aug 05 - 02:56 PM should have been put behind us long ago. That's the only accurate statement I've seen you make in this thread, Roger. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: MMario Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:46 PM gee Roger - Are YOU going to apologize for all the times you have misqouted him,me, WyWIWYG, Mick and the others that you have misqouted - therby misleading anyone reading your posts? How about requesting that those misqoutes be corrected? Of course that will show how badly you took them out of context. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: The Shambles Date: 12 Aug 05 - 01:39 PM Can we be assured that it is now a thing of the past? Perhaps you could make this clear and apolgise at the same time for supplying incorrect information in your post (expressed just as a fellow poster) which may (unintentionally I am sure) mislead all those reading our forum?
....or was it Mmario or Big Mick or katlaughing or Catspaw that was supposed to be sorry? I'm so confused. What thing? What past? Who cares? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: The Shambles Date: 12 Aug 05 - 11:46 AM And if I have an opinion that somebody might disagree with, I shouldn't be allowed to express it. If you wish now to return to being JUST a fellow poster again - you can express your personal view as you wish (if not now in a thread title). However, I think that it must be recognised that fellow posters have a right to be able to ALWAYS know in what capacity your personal views are expressed. And that jumping - as you do - between these two quite different roles - as and when you feel like - is very confusing and expecting a little too much from our forum - if you wish to be seen as impartial? As any moderator MUST? Joe - are we really expected to believe that anyone is innocent or naive enough to think that if they volunteer and feel qualified to impose their personal judgement upon their fellow posters - that they will be universally loved and admired and all their totally selfless efforts be appreciated - by all of these fellow posters? The example of your last post in this thread is a perfect one of you expressing an 'offical line' whilst posting as a conventional poster expressing their personal views - yet rather than consistently speaking as 'I' - insisting in this post as referring to 'WE'. The following example of a editing comment (there are many such examples) - containing many personal assumptions and judgements (from the now closed - Censorship on Mudcat thread) - is probably equally confusing. Ah, but Roger, I draw a little line. The space above the line is your space, and I leave it alone. And I write in brown, so people won't confuse my comments with yours. Besides that, my usual brown responses are editorial comments in response to your questions about editorial actions. Does it not seem appropriate to give editorial answers to editorial questions in editorial format? As a matter of fact, what is wrong with the brown comments, other than that they are a violation of your own arbitrary rules that you seek to impose upon the editorial staff of Mudcat? Isn't that it? - that you want to be king, and you've had a royal snit for threee years now because no one has seen fit to recognize your royalty? -Joe Offer- Surely it is not too much for our forum to expect a clearer and more consistent line that is currently displayed - if the impartialty of editing actions is even to thought possible? Perhaps a choice must now be made - as to what is now more important to you? The ability to openly express your personal opinion or the ability to impose your personal opinion upon your fellow posters? I suspect that most of us could deal with you (and other volunteer fellow posters) far better in one role or the other - than we can with you trying (and failing) to maintain them both.
As for the brown Joe Offer and the black Joe Offer, they are one and the same, integrated person. The distinctions you wish to draw are largely your own artificial creation - another of the rules you see to impose on the actions of others, on this site that has no rules. When I answer questions about editorial actions, it would seem perfectly appropriate to express those responses in editorial brown - and that is the only communication I have with you. And you've become tedious again. You're prattling on about your one message in a thousand that may have been deleted with others in a flame thread, and trying to dictate when I type in black and when in brown. If that's all you can find to whine about, I guess I won't have anything else to say to you for a while. Your royal snit has now passed its fourth anniversary, and you have had little new to say since the first couple of weeks of your tantrum. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 12 Aug 05 - 10:58 AM And not one word of it has been deleted, except for some of his more glaring duplications. Perhaps you would accept that when anonymous volunteer fellow posters have deleted entire threads - that every word of every post of mine to these threads and every word of every other post contained within it - is deleted permanently? Joe - I have not noticed you imposing this practice upon the rest of us us recently - perhaps I have just not been looking in the right places? Or have you finally listened to those who object to this and accepted that the practice of deleting entire threads - is far too heavy-handed? Can we be assured that it is now a thing of the past? Perhaps you could make this clear and apolgise at the same time for supplying incorrect information in your post (expressed just as a fellow poster) which may (unintentionally I am sure) mislead all those reading our forum? Do you now accept that it is a fact that - with the editing practice I refer to - many words of mine (and others) have been deleted by anonymous volunteer fellow posters? |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: Joe Offer Date: 11 Aug 05 - 03:28 PM For a man who purports to believe that we shouldn't have rules, Shambles can sure make 'em up to control other people. He seems to think that since I do editing here, I shouldn't be allowed to post. And if I have an opinion that somebody might disagree with, I shouldn't be allowed to express it. I suppose Shambles isn't the only person who thinks this, but it's Shambles who expresses it most often. And then there are other people who think I there's something wrong with my responding to Shambles at all when he talks about the stuff that I do. I dunno, I find it an interesting challenge to attempt to give a rational response without repeating myself. I also find it an interesting challeng to respond to insults without resorting to insults. Although I guess I have to admit that I have sometimes given in to that temptation, I think I generally do a pretty good job of expressing myself rationally and with good humor.. I think that Shambles makes too much of this editing stuff. He sees it as some sort of Armageddon of the Internet, a cyberpower struggle between the forces of good (Shambles) and evil (those who have edit buttons). I don't see it as quite so dramatic. We volunteers rename threads to make the titles more consistent, informative, and useful. I suppose I could write seventeen pages in the FAQ about thread naming conventions, but nobody would read or understand them. So, we add or change tags when they're missing, and add explanatory information when needed. We figure that as time goes on, most people will catch on to our naming conventions - or not. It doesn't really matter, because the Forum Menu is just an index, and we can fix it if it's broke. I suppose we devote our time to teaching, and send Mudcatters preachy little messages about how they should do this or that in thread title naming. We had a lot of that preaching before we had the ability to change thread titles, and it got really old. Now we just make changes when they're needed, and don't make a big deal of it. Most people accept our thread renaming practices very well - most of our complaints come from just one person. I suppose if the Forum Menu is to be an effective index, it has to have some sort of balance. I rarely start threads myself - I'd be surprised if I start two a month. Usually, I try to add what I have to say to existing threads, to participate in ongoing discussions. Other people start one or more threads per day, every day - whether they have something new to talk about, or not. A very few people consistently start threads on topics that are already currently on the Forum Menu. I don't know why, but they seem to have a compulsion to start threads. Sometimes, we humor those compulsions and let those threads continue, and sometimes we combine them with existing discussions - it all depends on what seems to be the sensible thing to do at the time. The other day, it seemed sensible to me to consolidate the dozen Shatner threads that were to be seen on the Forum Menu. See, that's the problem - if we allow Shambles to use the Forum Menu as a platform, we have to give the same privilege to Shatner. So, no, I think we'd better let the Forum Menu be an index, and let Shambles and Shatner say more-or-less whatever they want to say within their own messages (in case some of you didn't know, William Shatner has been an Honorary Mudcatter for quite some time. It happened shortly after Little Hawk joined us - about the time Cletus left us...). So, I'm sorry that Shambles takes this personally. It isn't meant to be that way. It's all just housekeeping, not a power struggle. It's just trying to make some sense out of the chaos. And we will continue to welcome Shambles to say whatever he wants in every message he posts. He may not get the "front page" coverage he wants for his every word, but his comments are easily found. Just click on his name in any message he's posted, and you will receive a complete collection of everything Shambles has said on Mudcat. And not one word of it has been deleted, except for some of his more glaring duplications. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: George Papavgeris Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:30 PM Neh! |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:09 PM Pusti malaka [Sp?] [[Not you George.]] |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: George Papavgeris Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:04 PM I wish you had, oh Lowest of the Low. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:59 PM "Good thing I didn't say anything about the dirty knife! |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: George Papavgeris Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:53 PM "... given Joe Offer's role – it must be faced and accepted that our forum has different expectations of the two of us. I am just a fellow poster. Hopefully Joe Offer- having now with this story - clearly demonstrated his inability to remain and operate in the required impartial manner - will return to being just a fellow poster..." You hypocritical sod, Shambles! You moan about not making public character judgements, and then with the above statement (despite everyone else's having already disagreed with you on the matter of Joe's character) you attempt to blacken Joe's name. How dare you! I used to sympathise with your plight; then I just felt sorry for you. But no more, because you now show malice. I repeat, you are a hypocritical sod. And I am saying so publicly, because your related statements that prove it were also made publicly. If you don't like it - sue me. Or, to quote Michaelus Maximus: Bite me. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: John MacKenzie Date: 11 Aug 05 - 12:42 PM Who's the 'Nobby no Mates' now then?? G ¦¬] |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: wysiwyg Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:08 AM But given Joe Offer's role – it must be faced and accepted that our forum has different expectations of the two of us. I am just a fellow poster. Shambles, let this begin with YOU. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: GUEST Date: 11 Aug 05 - 11:05 AM Shabmles=shut the fuck up, and get a life. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: Amos Date: 11 Aug 05 - 10:41 AM But given Joe Offer's role – it must be faced and accepted that our forum has different expectations of the two of us. I am just a fellow poster. Roger, Joe has done far more to make this forum a good place than you have. He has added more value than you have. I'm sorry if this is unpalatable but it is the simple fact of the matter. Face it. This pinko "fellow poster" thing may be the initial state of the system in theory, but in practice people do different things, that have different value to others. By their fruits, ye shall know them. A |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: GUEST,Truthtroller Date: 11 Aug 05 - 01:46 AM You have too much time on your hands don't you Shambles!? Go on admit it. No friends nothing to do. Did you chew a blanket when you were a child? T.T. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:28 PM So, that's the story. -Joe Offer- That is list of many assumptions and judgements made by one poster upon a fellow poster. Many may agree with some of Joe Offer's judgements - some (more informed) I hope will not. There are many sides to this story but the rights and wrongs of it are not important now - as this issues is now gone and should have been put behind us long ago. But it does demonstrate the real danger when one poster feels that it is incumbent upon them to impose their judgement (for what they may honestly think are all the right reasons) upon their fellow posters. When all they may doing in reality is using their position to give vent to the personal likes and dislikes that we all have. For Joe Offer is not JUST a fellow poster and MUST be seen operate impartially – ALWAYS. That is the responsibility that comes with the rights that Joe Offer so readily assumes when he feels qualified to sit in and impose his persoanal judgement upon the rest of us. I think that whatever claims Joe Offer may make for impartiality in his subsequent dealings with me – that the special treatment demonstrated by our volunteer fellow posters on our forum to this individual poster - will be seen in the light of this 'story' - to be highly suspect. It is clear that there is a personal attitude and openly displayed dislike of me in particular - that makes it impossible for Joe Offer to give the equal treatment to all posters on our forum that any holder of a responsible position must be seen to do..... It matters little if you share Joe's obvious personal dislike of me or if you think that I show equal dislike of him. I try my best not to let this influence my thinking. But given Joe Offer's role – it must be faced and accepted that our forum has different expectations of the two of us. I am just a fellow poster. Hopefully Joe Offer- having now with this story - clearly demonstrated his inability to remain and operate in the required impartial manner - will return to being just a fellow poster and we can both then disagree on equal terms? |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: Wesley S Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:14 PM As they say in AA - Insanity is repeating behavior over and over and over again expecting different results. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: Amos Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:06 PM FORGIVENESS To understand is to forgive, even oneself. Alexander Chase |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: wysiwyg Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:01 PM Joe, that's how I remember it, too. Plus the endless emails and PMs. My interest was assumed to be support, and my support was assumed to be agreement with all Roger's PELs viewpoints. I bailed from the whole PELs thing because I found it mentally draining and emotionally frustrating to try to communicate sensibly about the issue in part or in whole; once I saw how it was, I didn't want my name associated with Shambles' efforts. Roger, many of us have tried to tell you these things and, each time I'm aware of that included me personally, it got turned into a debate. A proof contest. A battle. That's not how to win people to a cause.... in fact your approach drove me right out of the PELs issue entirely. There are many, many worthy causes in the world, some of which I've worked together with people to bring about change, successfully. I've learned I don't have to put my energies into working in situations that chew me up-- that I can be far more effective in any effort if I focus on situations where I can contribute without being made insane by the working conditions, the team dynamics, and the control issues. I agree with the posts that have cast your mis-applied persistence as a major control issue. You may not feel it that way inside, but it IS what comes across over and over again. Sometimes a control habit is something we are not aware of inside ourselves. Certainly I have found that my own needs to control are seldom as transparent to me as they are to close friends. If I were your close friend, I would urge you, with all the caring persuasion I could exert, to find something positive to work FOR and to stop giving a jot of your energy and passion to working AGAINST anything at all. Learning how to do that might bring you some happiness-- and some success in areas you care deeply about. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:46 PM At least four that I know of. Plus the three deleted threads and god knows how many edited messages. MMario - As you didn't seem to mind these impositions - we can assume that you would have also readily and speedily agreed to these - had you been consulted and asked first. A process that would have not proved too 'cumberssome' or have inconvenienced any of our volunteer fellow posters. I trust you accept that other posters may see this imposition and its manner - in a less charitable light than you appear to and be upset by it? Are they not entitled to hold and evidence a different view on our forum - without being subject to personal judgement and abuse? Roger - the request, which is for an alteration in established procedure - *IS* a complaint. Established long-term procedure is that (wherever possible) poster's contibutions remain as posted. A suggestion to return to this principle - when it seems to be forgotten - should be seen in that light. A suggestion or reasoned and evidenced request for any change could be - in a more reasoned climate - seen as an attempt at improvement to 'established' procedure. Are you suggesting that current procedure as practiced and imposed upon us by our unknown numbers of anonymous fellow posters - is perfect and incapable of being improved on? |
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Subject: (thread title change complaint) From: Joe Offer Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:19 PM Well, I suppose it depends on what you think of the Forum Menu. Shambles believes in a right to free speech - and I think most of us do. He thinks that the Forum Menu is a vehicle for self-expression and that the right of free speech should extend to the Forum Menu, and I think the Forum Menu is merely an index. Shambles is a pioneer here, because he was one of the very first to attempt to use the Forum Menu as a platform for expression. When he started his PEL campaign in 2001, he worked hard to ensure that several PEL threads were visible on the Forum Menu at any given time. He'd refresh several PEL threads, all with the same lengthy message, to keep his PEL campaign in the people's eye. He even started threads that had the sole purpose of directing people to other PEL threads. He worked hard to fight for "turf" on the Forum Menu, making sure his PEL campaign stood out above all other topics of discussion. His PEL campaign was a very worthy cause, but his technique got to be too much. He was flooding the Forum with words, crowding out others who weren't so wordy. He often titled threads with deceptive titles like the ones you find in virus and advertising e-mails - the ones that try to trick you into opening them. So, a number of things were done to hold Shambles back a bit, since he didn't seem to be able to control himself. His PEL threads were given PEL tags, and they were crosslinked so he wouldn't need to keep repeating things that people could easily find in other threads. So, yes, many of the Shambles threads were retitled - they had a PEL tag added to them. Some (but not most) of the lengthy duplicate messages he posted were deleted - but one copy of each message was always left intact, and only the duplicates were deleted. Shambles went overboard, and kept on going overboard for months. Finally, he was subjected to a few controls - although not one of his words was deleted unless it was a duplicate of another statement he posted. So,Shambles has been having a tantrum since 2001. And as he went overboard on the PEL campaign and actually served to make his issue look ridiculous by the outrageous quantity and exaggeration of his remarks, he also does the same with his campaign against the editing work done at Mudcat. Gee, he even compares me to Hitler, and that's SO unfair. I have much nicer facial hair. So, that's the story. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: artbrooks Date: 10 Aug 05 - 01:07 PM Tell me...how can I become an anonymous Mudcat assistant? I too would like the ability to make reasonable, logical and innocuous changes to ambiguous thread titles and generate month-long discussions in which nothing is said that wasn't said the first day. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: MMario Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:56 PM At least four that I know of. Plus the three deleted threads and god knows how many edited messages. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: MMario Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:54 PM Roger - the request, which is for an alteration in established procedure - *IS* a complaint. And you completley ignore the fact that the volunteers follow guidelines set down by Max - and that they are acting for Max. that they are not ALL in complete agreement with policy is moot. You can disagree with policy and yet not break policy. That policy does not REQUIRE bert to contact someone prior to changing a thread title doesn't mean he CAN'T. He can choose NOT to add a tag to a thread title - even though policy says it is appropriate for him to do so. etc. Your "sensible assumption" is incorrect - you have been told it is incorrect by multiple people and multiple times. You have also been told - as per site policy - that you can verify this by contacting Max off-forum. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:53 PM "Good thing I didn't say anything about the dirty knife! |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: John MacKenzie Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:45 PM Nobody loves me! Everybody hates me! Think I'll go and eat worms, Little short fat ones, big long skinny ones, see how they wriggle and squirm. I bites off the heads, and I sucks out the guts, then I throws the skins away. Everybody look and see how I thrive, on worms three times a day! G.. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 10 Aug 05 - 12:38 PM Exactly how many titles of yours have been changed? The issue here - as you well know - is NOT thread titles that have been changed (in any form) but the IMPOSITION of their personal judgement by an unknown number of anonymous volunteer fellow posters - without the thread originator's knowledge or permission. The imposed change to this thread is misleading (whether intentionally so is a matter I will leave to you to judge). For the imposition refers to a complaint - when the original post was making a simple request for originators always to be first consulted before any imposition is made - in the hope that an informed discussion could take place on all of the issues raised. This imposition and its manner and defence - does rather lead poster to the idea that this thead is about a complaint. And sadly there does now tend to be rather a predictable and unhelpful response on our forum - mainly in the form of indignant judgement from some posters - to the making of any complaint - in any form. Rather on the lines of that Monty Python sketch where a customer asks for their fork to be replaced - and is then subject to all sorts of insults from various members of staff - on lines of how ungrateful the - now bemused - customer is being for making this simple request. The answer to your question - is that to my knowledge - there have been at least three imposed changes to my thread titles. At a time when there were many other thread titles (possibly that could be judged to be in equal need of clarification) that were not subject to any imposition. Perhaps a better question for you and others to answer - would be how many of YOUR thread titles (and other contributions) have been subject of imposed changes? |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: MMario Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:37 AM BTW - in case anyone hasn't notices - that "don't sweat it, there are no rules" quote from Max is in a thread specifically about the "rules" for BS threads. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: MMario Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:30 AM increasing undertaken and justified on my thread titles Exactly how many titles of yours have been changed? I am aware of two. A quick scan shows that you average about 2.5 new threads per hundred posts - or approximatley 210 threads over the 8400 plus posts you have currenlty archived. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: jeffp Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:13 AM Not really |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: John MacKenzie Date: 10 Aug 05 - 10:05 AM Just back from Sidmouth and Broadstairs; did I miss much?? Giok ¦¬] |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: Amos Date: 10 Aug 05 - 09:37 AM Butcha got nice bazookas. A |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: MMario Date: 10 Aug 05 - 08:54 AM Harpy can't think of anything particularly nasty I've ever said to you either - we've clashed occasionally but that's probably becuae neither of us is particularly subtle in expressing ourselves. You *do* tend to express rather cynical views of the world in your posts. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 10 Aug 05 - 02:16 AM Prefixes and other tags are optional in the thread creation process, but they will be added by volunteers if needed to assist in indexing. The above comment - as it was provided as an editing comment which did not refresh this thread - I assume is not just Joe Offer's personal view as a fellow poster - but something else. This means that the use of prefixes and other tags in thread titles remain optional - but will be imposed - without the originator's knowledge or permission by anonymous fellow posters - if and when - in the personal judgement of these volunteer fellow posters - the thread title is judged to be lacking. As this imposition seems to be increasing undertaken and justified on my thread titles - perhaps to ensure equal treatment - it would better to make the use of tags and prefixes compulsory up-front? I suggest it would be far better the leave thread titles to the originator's judgement. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad Date: 09 Aug 05 - 11:43 PM The only reason why this thread continues is because people keep feeding the trolls. If we've learned nothing this year - let's resolve to just let the trolls talk to themselves. Walk away. It's that simple. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: harpgirl Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:22 PM and Leo, you never say anything nice to me so SCREW YOU!!!!!! and katlaughing, you ADDED to the thread title....I know you don't have a devious psychological bone in your body... yeah yeah yeah ... what a crock! love, artemis |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: harpgirl Date: 09 Aug 05 - 10:18 PM well Mickster, that does sound more accurate. The sad part is he doesn't have the time or the money or the inclination to make it run so that we don't lose the record of this microcosm of world global village talk about music and bullshit. hey, I like being your evil little sister! Artemis and Apollo. It fits my fantasy of who I really am! But I miss Orion... love, artemis |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: wysiwyg Date: 09 Aug 05 - 08:51 PM The whole crediblty of our forum hinges on the answer to that question. Yeah, we're all holding our breath. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: MMario Date: 09 Aug 05 - 07:47 PM well in this case shambles - I can say you are flat out wrong. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 09 Aug 05 - 06:44 PM MMario said - in reference to Max. Do you honestly think he would allow them to continue to so represent him if they weren't performing within the guidelines he has set? I doubt it. I replied that. MMario - The whole crediblty of our forum hinges on the answer to that question. One on which the jury is currently out on. From the evidence of the clearly unfair imposition upon my contributions alone and the defence and justification that is provided here to support these impositions and the suggestions and attempts to prevent an open debate from taking place in this thread - I rather now suspect that jury is back in and that the answer to your question must be yes...............Why is quite another question. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: Big Mick Date: 09 Aug 05 - 05:57 PM OK Harpy, my evil little sister, here is what I think about your analysis. Max isn't playing a game, but he is letting his grand experiment run its course. Were he playing a game, he would manipulate the pieces. What he is doing is exactly the opposite. He refuses to manipulate the pieces. It is MY OPINION (got that Rog, my opinion and nothing more) that he intends this place to be what it is. He purposely imposes very few rules in order for this petri dish of cultures, personalities, interests, and talents to be what it will be. At some point in the future it will be a wonderful subject for research. It is a microcosm of what the world is. I don't think he set out for it to be such, but he has let it evolve. So your horseshit fingerpointing won't do a lot, because doing what you want would change the essential nature of Mudcat. This is why he doesn't want a bunch of rigid rules, just general guidelines. Do we make mistakes? Sure, that is part of it. Whine away, Rog. You are just adding seasoning to the soup. You could stand to learn to cook better though. Mick |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complain From: katlaughing Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:56 PM It's her job, MMario. passive aggressive clone edits one of Roger's thread titles for the umpteenth time it was NOT edited; it was ADDED to...a simple, fecking location. I was asked to be a joe clone, by Max, personally. My direction as one comes ultimately from him. Joe has summed it up very well. People used to appreciate what we did...adding line breaks, fixing typos, adding blue clickies, deleting duplicate postings, cleaning up html mistakes, clarifying thread titles with correct prefixes, etc. I think the majority do still appreciate the volunteer service, but the minority (of one or two?) is more vocal...it's a real shame, but it seems to be a microcosm of the world these days. Once, again, take it to Max. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: The Shambles Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:55 PM No - I mean the forum that Max provided for our open discussion on his website. Shambles proposes that any time a thread title is altered in any way, the thread originator should be contacted in advance for permission. He contends that any alteration of a thread title is censorship, and should not be done without the express permission of the thread originator. To do less is to show disrespect to the freedom of speech of the thread originator. Yes – and if it were me that was doing the imposition upon your contributions and defending them in the manner evidenced here – you perhaps (and others) may also feel that I was imposing a negative effect on our forum and try to address it? The volunteers and I contend that we do respect the freedom of speech of our fellow Mudcatters because we do not touch the content or titles of the messages posted except in very rare and restricted circumstances. We contend that the Forum Menu and thread titles are merely an index, not a free-speech expression; and that thread titles are a service to the community and should clearly identify the contents of a thread and differentiate that thread from other threads. As such, thread titles are not and should not be under control of the thread originator. It is obvious to anyone reading just the thread titles (especially in the non-music section) that these titles are now are very much part of our forum's free speech expression. There is no attempt here at making the thread's originator any more in control of the thread - than making it under the control of our volunteers. Just simply to ensure that the originator's words appear as posted – unless they agree to any change. In addition to our policy of leaving the contents of messages unaltered in most circumstances, we do show respect for the concerns expressed by Shambles because we attempt to rename threads by adding to them, leaving the core of the thread title intact. If there is a possibility that the thread originator may have trouble finding the thread later, we DO contact the originator when possible and give notice of the new name of the thread. This is like having a car park that you have used for many years. One day you return to find that not only has your car been moved – without your knowledge or permission but that those in charge have decided to re-spay it the colour of their choice. It is showing proper respect - to ask first. Volunteers can add to the titles mainly because they have more characters available to them and can make longer thread titles than ordinary posters can. It would seem sensible (but not seemingly to our volunteers) for all posters to be given the increased characters available to our volunteers. We contend that advance notification of thread name changes is unnecessary and impractical. Most threads have most of their traffic in their first half-day of life - so if a name change is needed, it should be done as soon as possible, to help Mudcatters know right away what's inside that thread. In addition, it would indeed be cumbersome for multiple volunteers to develop a system for contacting thread originators for permission and waiting for a response, and then remembering to make the change once permission is granted. What if more than one volunteer gets the idea the thread title should be changed? Do we have to have a staff meeting to decide responsibility for each title change? Perhaps our volunteers showing some kind of consistent approach – other than just supporting whatever silliness may have been imposed - would be an improvement an the current free-for-all. There is no rush (unless it is to see which volunteer can pounce first). If something is worth doing - it is worth doing properly and without the risk of upsetting anyone. We also have a regular practice of contacting members by personal message and e-mail when they have trouble logging in, and we ask them to respond to make sure everything is working properly for them. Adding a requirement for contact and waiting for response on thread title changes would add effort and confusion to this already-heavy burden. If any volunteer feels that doing it properly is placing a too-heavy burden upon them – they are always welcome to un-volunteer. I am quite sure our forum would continue without them and their imposition – as indeed we have for many years. In general, our thread naming practices are quite innocuous, and consist of adding song titles and songwriter names to threads about songs, adding the date of death to obituaries, adding locations to gig threads, changing ALLCAPS to Title Case, removing inconsistent spellings or unusual characters that can impede searches, and other mundane matters. The logical time for a volunteer to make a thread title change is when he or she is reading the thread - not a day or two later, after the need and the idea have passed. We try to be consistent in our methods of titling thread so that people will have an easier time searching. In our experience, it appears that very few people - perhaps only one - have any complaint about the vast majority of our thread title changes. Your thread naming practices may be generally thought innocuous but they can be saved for the creation of your own threads and thread titles – not for imposing them upon the titles of others without their knowledge or permission. When this imposition is not so general or so innocuous – it does little credit to anyone to pretend they are. Athough we do not have a system for advance approval by thread originators of thread title changes, there's nothing to stop anybody from complaining about any change we make. Just send me a personal message. You may not like my answer - but then you're free to appeal to Max. Perhaps we should? It must be far better for all concerned to show up-front - that fair and equal treatment to all posters is the norm and that every aspect of our forum is seen to be open to public debate? Perhaps those who do not think this are the ones who should find or start another site where they could impose as many rules as they wished? |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: MMario Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:26 PM I'm glad I don't have such a dark and cynical view of the world. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: harpgirl Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:24 PM This is the game that Max plays in catspew's remarks: He won't tell you off or anything of course but will probably suggest that Joe has his confidence but thanks for your suggestions. This is a non answer designed to avoid responsibility but not give adequate responsiblity to someone else. It's called "let's you and him fight." Max could solve this problem. He chooses not to. He enjoys the chaos. What else could one conclude when some passive aggressive clone edits one of Roger's thread titles? the cloneheads know Roger will get upset but they do it anyway. Only Max can solve this problem. He doesn't. Therefore, it continues. Any monkey could understand this. I've always thought that the games Max plays are very interesting and amusing, frankly. But he is ultimately rsponsible for the endless arguing and abuse that is heaped on Roger at his request. Max feels superior and above it all when he watches this shit go on without changing the mudcat structure to make it stop. Simple as that. love, harpgirl |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: jeffp Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:06 PM I am not a clone. I am, however, Spartacus. |
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Subject: RE: In the UK......? (thread title change complaint) From: catspaw49 Date: 09 Aug 05 - 04:01 PM Way back when Roger you were more than happy to cry to Max at every chance and when things went badly for you, you sulked off in the corner. Ah yes, there was that touching "good-bye" as you left supposedly never to be seen again. But then you decided to come back because the music still had merit or whatever it was you said back then. The joint was pretty small and most of us were so enamored of it that having you return seemed only right. It took a very short time to remember why it was so pleasant when you were gone. This bitch session of yours has been pretty much seamless ever since! You also know exactly what Max will say and you don't want to ask him. He won't tell you off or anything of course but will probably suggest that Joe has his confidence but thanks for your suggestions. We both know he might also suggest that you've repeatedly stated your thoughts and that's enough. Then what will you do? Why will you have reason to come here? Perhaps we need a Shambles Suggestion thread. On it you can post all of your complaints and solutions to Max and the rest of us will leave it undisturbed with no debate whatsoever. Then Max can read it occasionally to see what is troubling your mind lately. To be fair I think you should have to limit yourself. Once you have stated a problem as you see it.......THAT'S IT! No more. Shall I start that thread for you? Spaw |
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