Are there songs about scurvy?

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 21 Jul 24 - 03:50 AM

Many sailors owed their lives to the work of Gilbert Blane. There should be a song to celebrate him!

https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2021/february/finding-cure-scurvy#:~:text=After%20considerable%20experimentation%2C%20he%20determined%20that%20adding%2010,it%20almost%20indefinitely%2C%20without%20destroying%20its%20beneficial%20properties.

U.S. Naval Institute Finding the Cure for Scurvy By Philip K. Allan February 2021

After considerable experimentation, [Blane] determined that adding 10 percent “spirits of wine” (i.e., distilled ethyl alcohol) to lemon juice would preserve it almost indefinitely, without destroying its beneficial properties.

From 1795 onward, three-quarters of an ounce of lemon juice per day was mandated to be given to every sailor serving throughout the Royal Navy, nearly banishing scurvy at a stroke.

The Merchant Shipping Act 1894 states; The lime or lemon juice and sugar shall be served out daily at the rate of an ounce each per day to each member of the crew, and shall be mixed with a due proportion of water before being served out.

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 08:05 PM

This is getting far off-topic, since English-language folksongs very rarely argue the antiscorbutic properties of sauerkraut, but still....

Jack Campin wrote:

Cook's sauerkraut was sealed in barrels. No way light could affect it. It would not be affected by storage as badly as citrus juice; the salt content preserves it.

There are two different issues. The salt content assuredly preserves the food, and the acidity of the sauerkraut also reduces decay.

But as far as Vitamin C is concerned, that's not true. Salt reacts with Vitamin C. In fact, Sodium ascorbate is a less acidic relative of Vitamin C, which apparently has some antiscorbutic effect. Some -- but less than ascorbic acid (or so internet sources assure me; I don't claim to know of my own knowledge). And the chlorine ions can't have been helpful....

So, while sauerkraut would remain edible for a long time, in a hot, salty environment, it would lose its antiscorbutic properties, just as lemon juice would. Not entirely, of course -- but the older your antiscorbutic (whatever it was), the larger the dose you needed.

And even though Lind had discovered antiscorbutics, he hadn't discovered the aging problem. Look up the Nares Arctic Expedition (1875). They had antiscorbutics -- and they didn't work, and scurvy almost doomed the expedition. Best guess is that the antiscorbutics lost their effectiveness because of light and heat. Yes, it was a British expedition, and would have used lemon juice (I think), but the point stands for all antiscorbutics.

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 07:35 PM

Cook's sauerkraut was sealed in barrels. No way light could affect it. It would not be affected by storage as badly as citrus juice; the salt content preserves it.

Leave a glass of lemon juice and a jar of sauerkraut out of the fridge and see which is still edible after a month.

You can buy sauerkraut preserved Cook's way at any Polish or Chinese food shop.

This storage method is better than Cook's but the loss of vitamin C is so slight it leaves a massive margin of effectiveness:

table covering a few months in storage

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 02:31 AM

Gilbert Blane and Thomas Beddoes, highly esteemed authorities on scurvy in the 18th century, rightly doubted that there was any antiscorbutic virtue in malt. Thomas Trotter, another expert, thought sauerkraut and portable soup were 'mere placebo'. They stated what Lind had already experimentally deduced - that fresh vegetables and citrus juice are the only substantial sources of vitamin C. https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/captaincook_scurvy_01.shtml

Treatment for scurvy had been demonstrated by James Lind in his Treatise of 1754.

Thomas Trotter (1760 – 1832) was a Scottish naval physician and author who was a leading medical reformer in the Royal Navy and an ardent critic of the slave trade. In England, while in private medical practice at Wooler in Northumberland, he wrote up his notes on scurvy to order, and published them as Observations on the Scurvy (1786; 2nd edit., much enlarged, 1792). Trotter corroborated Lind's thesis by extensive observations. Wikipedia

In 1795, through Sir Gilbert Blane, the Admiralty endorsed the general use of lemon juice.

An Act to amend the Merchant Shipping Act, 1854. [20th August 1867.] Lime or Lemon Juice and other Anti-scorbutics to be provided and kept on board certain Ships.

Merchant Shipping Act 1894 UK Public General Acts 1894 c. 60 FIFTH SCHEDULE The anti-scorbutics shall be served out to the crew so soon as they have been at sea for ten days; and during the remainder of the voyage, except during such time as they are in harbour and are there supplied with fresh provisions. The lime or lemon juice and sugar shall be served out daily at the rate of an ounce each per day to each member of the crew, and shall be mixed with a due proportion of water before being served out.

Vitamin C was discovered in 1912, isolated in 1928, and in 1933, was the first vitamin to be chemically produced. Partly for its discovery, Albert Szent-Györgyi was awarded the 1937 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.

Anson circumnavigation 1741; While the crew, weakened by typhus and dysentery, fought gale-force winds and huge seas, scurvy broke out. What little useful information available on its prevention was ignored and it is unlikely that the navy could have procured sufficient vitamin C for 1,000 men even if it had recognized the need. Hundreds of men died of disease in the weeks during and immediately after battling around the Horn. (Wikipedia)

Franklin expedition 1845; Russell Taichman, the Major Ash Collegiate Professor of Periodontics and Oral Medicine, said that historians and researchers for decades have speculated on several generally accepted causes of death: exposure, scurvy, lead poisoning, botulism, tuberculosis and starvation. But Taichman and colleagues now believe that tuberculosis resulting in adrenal insufficiency, or Addison’s disease, also contributed to the demise of the crew. Their findings were published in the journal Arctic earlier this year. (University of Michigan 2017)

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 09:05 PM

Jack Campin wrote:

Trotter can't have been any sort of expert. Just look it up. A normal meal portion of sauerkraut contains far more vitamin C than the RDA. It's one of the best sources available without access to modern technology.

Someone who was the most knowledgeable person at a given time might turn out to not know so much in the long run. :-) Trotter had experience with scurvy (you can see his Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Trotter_(physician). It's his conclusions that were wrong.

Some of them. He was right about most of the portable soups; they didn't have much vegetable in them.

You're right that sauerkraut was high in vitamin C -- when fresh. But vitamin C is not a very stable chemical; it decays when exposed to heat or light. On a voyage to the tropics, it would lose some of its antiscorbutic properties. So would lemon juice. On a voyage like the Franklin Expedition, heat would matter less, since the ships were chilly -- but if they kept the lemon juice close to the stoves, the lemon juice probably would have been pretty weak by the third year. Which would fit with what we know about the expedition. Despite all the talk about lead, the best bet -- the one that best fits the available evidence -- is still scurvy.

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: GUEST,Jack Campin
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 07:53 PM

Thomas Trotter, another expert, thought sauerkraut and portable soup were 'mere placebo.

Trotter can't have been any sort of expert. Just look it up. A normal meal portion of sauerkraut contains far more vitamin C than the RDA. It's one of the best sources available without access to modern technology.

Quétel's History of Scurvy and Vitamin C covers all this. I don't have a copy to check but there may well be songs referenced in it.

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 03:39 PM

Guest quoted:

Sir Edward Hawke (1710-1781) was, after Anson, the chief admiral of the late phase of the War of the Austrian Succession (1740-1748). He briefly assumed command of the Western Squadron when Vice Admiral Warren came down with scurvy. And, during what was supposed to be a minor tour of duty, the French tried to break a convoy out of Brest. Hawke caught up with them and won a brilliant victory at the second battle of Cape Finisterre in October 1747.

Hawke's exploits seem to have inspired several songs and poems; in addition to this and the broadside mentioned by Ben, C. H. Firth, _Publications of the Navy Records Society_ , 1907 (available on Google Books), p. 197, has an item called "Admiral Hawke," and on p. 217 prints "Hawke's Engagement," with "Lord Anson and Hawke" found on page 225. The Roud index lists a number of broadsides of "Admiral Hawke" and so forth. But this appears to be the only traditional song about Hawke, and even it barely survives. - RBW (Folklorist)

I would observe that I am the RBW of that particular citation, which this "Folklorist" quoted without permission. The Traditional Ballad Index generally allows people to use our work, but it should cite it! And people should certainly go back to the source.

"Warlike Seamen," with a much fuller biography of Saumarez, is at http://balladindex.org/Ballads/DTwarlik.html (which incidentally points to a Digital Tradition text of the song).

"Bold Hawke," which also has more information than is cited here, is at http://balladindex.org/Ballads/LeBe010.html.

And, of course, the whole Ballad Index is at http://balladindex.org

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 03:19 PM

Thank you, Robert. The Lucky Sailor evidently recalls Anson's second great prize. George Anson was a fearless and also a fortunate man. In May 1747, Anson, by now a vice-admiral, was cruising with a fleet off Cape Finisterre when he encountered a force of French men-of-war with a convoy of outward-bound merchantmen. Thirteen ships were taken and £300,000 in money was found aboard the prizes. The ballad reflects the euphoria of success but fails to mention the price in lives. Over a thousand seamen died on the voyage and the same number again, French and English, in the battle. (Boxing the Compass, Roy Palmer)

Finally, it was Anson who introduced replenishment at sea. This was momentous; sustainment of naval forces at sea is the true measure of maritime power. For the first time in history, the Royal Navy could maintain continuous blockade and presence. Combined with his adoption of Lind’s Treatise on Scurvy and the introduction of fresh vegetables to the supply chain, Anson’s fleets could loiter off an opponent’s coastline for six months with barely 20 personnel sick out of a strength of 14,000. (Trafalgar: The Legacy of George Anson; RUSI)

Captain Philip de Saumarez (1710–1747) was a British naval officer, notable for his role as captain of HMS Nottingham in capturing the French ship Mars and as the first lieutenant of George Anson, 1st Baron Anson, in his voyage around the world. While captain of HMS Nottingham, Saumarez would be locked in combat with a French 64-gun ship, Mars. After two hours of combat, the Nottingham was able to capture the vessel and bring it to Plymouth. (Wikipedia)

Peter Bellamy and Chris Birch sang 'Warlike Seamen' in 1969 on Bellamy’s third solo LP, The Fox Jumps Over the Parson’s Gate. A.L. Lloyd commented in the original album’s liner notes: The song began its life in the seventeenth century and concerned the little merchant ship Marigold, 70 tons, owned by a Mr Ellis of Bristol, which fought a brisk and successful skirmish with “Turkish” pirates off the coast of Algiers. At the end of the eighteenth century the song was re-jigged to suit the times, and now it dealt with an encounter with the French, fought by a ship variously called the Nottingham and the London. (Mainly Norfolk)

Peter Bellamy sings Warlike Seamen;
Come all you warlike seamen that to the seas belong;
I’ll tell you of a fight, my boys, on board the Nottingham.
It was of an Irish captain, his name was Somerville,
With courage bold he did control, he played his part so well.

Sir Edward Hawke (1710-1781) was, after Anson, the chief admiral of the late phase of the War of the Austrian Succession (1740-1748). He briefly assumed command of the Western Squadron when Vice Admiral Warren came down with scurvy. And, during what was supposed to be a minor tour of duty, the French tried to break a convoy out of Brest. Hawke caught up with them and won a brilliant victory at the second battle of Cape Finisterre in October 1747.

Hawke's exploits seem to have inspired several songs and poems; in addition to this and the broadside mentioned by Ben, C. H. Firth, _Publications of the Navy Records Society_ , 1907 (available on Google Books), p. 197, has an item called "Admiral Hawke," and on p. 217 prints "Hawke's Engagement," with "Lord Anson and Hawke" found on page 225. The Roud index lists a number of broadsides of "Admiral Hawke" and so forth. But this appears to be the only traditional song about Hawke, and even it barely survives. - RBW (Folklorist)

Lord Anson's Garland, Composed of six delightful New Songs. 1. Lord Anson and Hawke. 2. The Highlander's march to America. 3. Willy's the lad for me. 4. Let me in this ... Night. 5. A New Song Tune the ... of the Dee 6. Pretty Nancy of London. Licensed and entered according to Order. Date: 1775? The Wellcome Collection

Scurvy runs through the thread, but does not appear in the songs!

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 01:12 PM

Henryp wrote:

There seems little in verse or song to commemorate Anson, a naval hero.

Firth's book of naval songs offers "The Lucky Sailor, or The Sailor's Invitation to Go with Admiral Anson." This is also in Palmer's "Sea Songs." It's Roud #V22822. There is a broadside in the Madden Collection.

There are also some songs which are sort of Anson-adjacent, such as "Bold Hawke." The best-known of these is surely "Warlike Seamen (The Irish Captain)," Roud #690. The "Captain Somerville" (or whoever) of that song is actually Philip Saumaurez, who was one of Anson's officers on his world tour. It was Anson's support that earned him his captain's rank and the command of the ship in the song.

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 19 Jul 24 - 12:56 PM

https://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/empire_seapower/captaincook_scurvy_01.shtml
Scurvy came to public notice in Britain after Commodore George Anson led a squadron into the Pacific in the 1740s to raid Spanish shipping. He lost all but one of his six ships, and two thirds of the crews he shipped (700 survived out of an original complement of 2000), most of them to scurvy.

[Cook's first cruise from 1768 to 1771] had five cases of scurvy reported by his surgeon and no deaths from it. In his next two voyages Cook's good management, or luck, persisted, and no deaths from scurvy were reported. Since then he has been hailed as the conqueror of the sea's great plague. William Bowles wrote in his poem The Spirit of Discovery (1804):

Smile, glowing Health!
For now no more the wasted seaman sinks,
With haggard eye and feeble frame diseased;
No more with tortured longings for the sight
Of fields and hillocks green, madly he calls.

https://archive.org/details/spiritofdiscover00bowl/page/n9/mode/2up
The spirit of discovery; or, The conquest of ocean. : A poem, in five books: with notes, historical and illustrative. by Bowles, William Lisle, 1762-1850 Publication date 1804

Hughie Jones sang 'According to the Act' as the first track of his 1973 Fellside CD Seascape. He noted: We get underway with a couple of satirical ditties. According to the Act concerns The Merchant Shipping Act of 1894, known as the ‘Limejuice Act’. Its purpose was to improve conditions for seafarers, notably with an issue of limejuice ten days out. (From Mainly Norfolk) Songs about scurvy should be unlikely after this date.

It turns out that Cook's prohibition against the fat from the boiling pans was the only truly antiscorbutic measure he took, for hot salt fat coming into contact with copper acquired a substance that irritates the gut and prevents its absorption of vitamins. Gilbert Blane and Thomas Beddoes, highly esteemed authorities on scurvy in the 18th century, rightly doubted that there was any antiscorbutic virtue in malt. Thomas Trotter, another expert, thought sauerkraut and portable soup were 'mere placebo'. They stated what Lind had already experimentally deduced - that fresh vegetables and citrus juice are the only substantial sources of vitamin C. But although 'rob' (concentrated fruit juice) was carried on board Cook's ships, it had been boiled to reduce it, and in the process all its vitamin C (ascorbic acid) had been lost.

There seems little in verse or song to commemorate Anson, a naval hero. "The Castaway" is an elegiac poem/ballad written by William Cowper in 1799. The poem is based on George Anson's Voyage around the World after Cowper read an account which told of one of the men being washed overboard. There is one explicit reference to Anson's voyage:
       No poet wept him: but the page
                Of narrative sincere;
       That tells his name, his worth, his age,
                Is wet with Anson's tear.
From Wikipedia

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 03:11 PM

Ice! Exploring the Far South; Captain Cook Memorial Museum, Whitby 2023 250th Anniversary of the first crossing of the Antarctic Circle

Many extra articles of food were intended to protect men from scurvy on the long voyage, including "malt, sour-krout, salted cabbage, portable broth, saloup, mustard, marmalade of carrots, and inspissated juice of wort and beer."

The voyage lasted three years and eighteen days. Cook lost four men - and just one of those to illness. The cause of scurvy, vitamin C deficiency, was not known until the early 20th century, but Cook's success in countering the disease led to the Royal Society awarding him the prestigious Copley medal.

The Antarctic Muse; Singing and composing sea shanties had long been a popular sailor's pastime. Thomas Perry, an able seaman on Resolution, composed one detailing their Antarctic experiences.

The Resolution Returns

1. It is now my brave boys we are clear of the Ice
And keep a good heart if you’ll take my advice
We are out of the cold my brave boys do not fear
For the Cape of Good Hope with good hearts we do steer

6. We are hearty and well and of good constitution
We have ranged the Globe round in the brave Resolution
Brave Captain Cook he was our Commander
Has conducted the ship from all eminent danger

7. We were all hearty seamen no cold did we fear
And we have from all sickness entirely stayed clear
Thanks be to the Captain he has been so good
Amongst all the Islands to give us good food

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 08:53 AM

?Lime, scurvy, ambergris and marmalade
Hoist the petard, and we'll haul away the bully boys
Lime, scurvy, ambergris and blubber, we're
Bound for Cincinnati?

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 04:57 AM

Obviouslu unfamiliar with:-

Round Cape Horn we all got nervy
No weevils in the hard tack, we all got scurvy
Added to that the Captain's pervy

Way hey oh me lads! The cabin boy is Donald Trump!

Subject: RE: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: Robert B. Waltz
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 04:10 AM

There are certainly songs related to scurvy: "According to the Act," "The Limejuice Tub." Neither would exist without scurvy. Whether that qualifies as a chantey featuring scurvy is a more complicated question.

Old Put's "Prospecting Dream" mentions scurvy, though it's not a sea song.

There are a number of songs about historical sea voyages where scurvy ensued. The best-known by far is "Lady Franklin's Lament," but I can list the others if you wish.

Subject: Are there songs about scurvy?
From: Bill Brown
Date: 16 Jul 24 - 12:17 AM

I've heard a fair number of sea-chanties and foc'sle songs and traditional folk song, but never one featuring scurvy. You'd think what would be a subject that would come up.

I'd do a search for it on Mud Cat, but the search engine has been broken for months.