3 wise men of Gotham

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Sep 20 - 08:40 AM

I remember a children's song very like oneof the above versions, from one of those not-as-big records, maybe Peggy Seeger?
[... googling...]
Yes!

And We Hunted and We Hunted
This song is by Peggy Seeger and appears on the album Animal Folk Songs for Children (1957).

And we hunted and we hunted and we hunted and we found
A pig in the lane and it we left behind
Look 'ee there!
Some said it was a pig but others said nay
Some said it was an elephant with its snout shot away
Look 'ee there!

And we hunted and we hunted and we hunted and we found
A frog in the well and him we left behind
Look 'ee there!
Some said it was a frog but others said nay
Some said it was a canary with his feathers washed away
Look 'ee there!

And we hunted and we hunted and we hunted and we found
An owl in an ivy bush and it we left behind
Look 'ee there!
Some said it was an owl but others said nay
Some said it was the devil and we all ran away
Look 'ee there!

And we hunted and we hunted and we hunted and we found
A barn in the meadow and it we left behind
Look 'ee there!
Some said it was a barn and others said nay
Some said it was a church with the steeple washed away
Look 'ee there!

And we hunted and we hunted and we hunted and we found
A ship in full sail and it we left behind
Look 'ee there!
Some said it was a ship and others said nay
Some said it was a washtub with the clothes up to dry
Look 'ee there!

And we hunted and we hunted and we hunted and we found
A ball in the road and it we left behind
Look 'ee there!
Some said it was a ball and others said nay
Some said it was a turtle with its legs stucked away
Look 'ee there!

And we hunted and we hunted and we hunted and we found
A child in a bed and it we left behind
Look 'ee there!
Some said it was a child and others said nay
Some said it was a pony gone to sleep on the hay
Look 'ee there!

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Guest, Melody Faris
Date: 05 Sep 20 - 08:09 PM

Thank-you, Sarah, McAllister. Your version is the one I was seeking. It has been very interesting to learn all about Gotham and King John and the ruse played against him.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 02:03 PM

Another that starts on p.235

https://books.google.ca/books?id=qDXRPAAb-lAC&pg=PA237&lpg=PA237&dq=And+he+who+at+this+day+will+seek+The+Economic+Club,+Will+fin

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 12:22 PM

"Subject: Lyr Add: THE THREE WISE MEN OF GOTHAM
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM"

Here are more stanzas, so I've c/p the whole thing.

The Wise Men of Gotham
by Thomas Love Peacock (from Poetry Nook"

In a bowl to sea went wise men three,
On a brilliant night of June:
They carried a net, and their hearts were set
On fishing up the moon.

The sea was calm, the air was balm,
Not a breath stirred low or high,
And the moon, I trow, lay as bright below,
And as round as in the sky.

The wise men with the current went,
Nor paddle nor oar had they,
And still as the grave they went on the wave,
That they might not disturb their prey.

Far, far at sea, were the wise men three,
When their fishing-net they threw;
And at the throw, the moon below
In a thousand fragments flew.

The sea was bright with the dancing light
Of a million million gleams,
Which the broken moon shot forth as soon
As the net disturbed her beams.

They drew in their net: it was empty and wet,
And they had lost their pain,
Soon ceased the play of each dancing ray,
And the image was round again.

Three times they threw, three times they drew,
And all the while were mute;
And evermore their wonder grew,
Till they could not but dispute.

Their silence they broke, and each one spoke
Full long, and loud, and clear;
A man at sea their voices three
Full three leagues off might hear.

The three wise men got home again
To their children and their wives:
But touching their trip, and their net's vain dip,
They disputed all their lives.

The wise men three could never agree,
Why they missed the promised boon;
They agreed alone that their net they had thrown,
And they had not caught the moon.

I have thought myself pale o'er this ancient tale,
And its sense I could not ken;
But now I see that the wise men three
Were paper-money men.

"Rub-a-dub-dub, three men in a tub,'
Is a mystic burthen old,
Which I've pondered about till my fire went out,
And I could not sleep for cold.

I now divine each mystic sign,
Which robbed me oft of sleep,
Three men in a bowl, who went to troll,
For the moon in the midnight deep.

Three men were they who science drank
From Scottish fountains free;
The cash they sank in the Gotham bank,
Was the moon beneath the sea.

The breaking of the imaged moon,
At the fishing-net's first splash,
Was the breaking of the bank as soon
As the wise men claimed their cash.

The dispute which lasted all their lives,
Was the economic strife,
Which the son's son's son of every one
Will maintain through all his life.

The son's son's sons will baffled be,
As were their sires of old;
But they only agree, like the wise men three,
That they could not get their gold.

And they'll build systems dark and deep,
And systems broad and high;
But two of three will never agree
About the reason why.

And he who at this day will seek
The Economic Club,
Will find at least three sages there,
As ready as any that ever were
To go to sea in a tub.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,akenaton
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 05:28 AM

Any stories about the wise men (or women) of Mudcat? There must be a book?

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Sarah McAllister
Date: 13 Oct 19 - 04:45 AM

I was 5yrs old, and for school I had to learn and recite a poem from memory;no note cards or help in any way. My Mother had a collection of nursery rhymes from all over the World. Well the poem I chose was Three Wise Men of Gotham; I am 32yrs old now and still remember every word and this is how it goes.

    Three Wise Men of Gotham thought
the Moon was cheese; They tried to
fish it out of the river, if you
please. But all the little tadpoles
trailed a little tune, "You'll never
never catch it; it's the Moon Moon
Moon!!"

That's how I remember it. I hope this helps in some way to someone somewhere. Thank You and God bless. ~*Sarah*~

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Mad Maudlin
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 12:03 PM

Don't know about Bochum in Germany, but I have always heard that the town of those weird people was called Schilda, and their inhabitants "Schildbürger" (citizens of Schilda). There's even a German word "Schildbürgerstreiche", literally translated it means "antics of the citizens of Schilda", that is used for weird things politicians and other officials sometimes do. I don't think this is ever used in a different sense, but it sure says something about German politics :)

One Schildbürger story I remember right off the top of my head is when their mayor discovered that there was grass growing on his thatched roof. To get rid of the grass, they tied a rope round a cow's neck and tried to pull her up. (Ouch. Poor cow.)
They also decided that their city gate was too large - wagons and carts could get in, but what about people on foot? The gate was definitely too large for them, so they made it smaller.
And so on...

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Raedwulf
Date: 04 Dec 02 - 10:58 AM

This isn't about songs - it's about stories!

Yep, Gotham. Also Coggeshall, in Essex (tried to divert a stream by fixing hurdles in its bed, chained up a wheelbarrow after a mad dog bit it, just in case). There's a village on the Isle of Wight ditto (but can't remember its name). The point is that these are transferable tales. Every county in the country has its village of proverbial idiots. Look closely enough, if the tales have survived the age of the mass media, & you'll find 'em.

Now, where did they *really* start... *BG*

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: mack/misophist
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 11:40 AM

"The Annotated Mother Goose" claims that the town's reputation stems from an event in the reign of King Stephen, perhaps around 1100? The people didn't want the king's procession to come through the town because it would impose a heavy tax burden. They couldn't tell the king not to come, so they went along the route doing very strange things; hoping that would somehow freighten him off.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: IanC
Date: 03 Dec 02 - 08:21 AM

Another useful Gotham Tales site here. It says the tales are clearly pre-reformation and that one of them, at least, is found in a 12th Century manuscript (actually it's dated elsewhere as 13th Century) about the people of Norfolk.

Presumably they've always been Norfolk an' good!

:-)

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 11:15 AM

Bald Eagle, you are correct. I was concentrating on the 'GOT-ham' being pronounced, forgetting that the Americans sound the aitch. 'Goat'm' is the right way. Regarding the song. There are many versions of 'Three Men Went A-Hunting'.Cyril Tawney has one he collected in the West of England, then there is one from Jack Elliot of Birtley, and plenty of others. If I got up to search my references this post would never get finished, such is the chaos of my filing system, so I'll pass on that. But there ARE plenty. In the USA, Byrd Moore and his Hotshots recorded a string band version. I think that the 'Wise men of Gotham' song (if it ever was a song,perhaps it was just a recitation) is somewhere in the family tree of '3 Men went A-Hunting'. Somewhere in my files I've got a note about a 'Gotham' version in which the men come across an 'owlet'. "First one he ssaid 'Owlet', Second one he said 'Nay'. Third one said 'It's a Goshawk, With his bels(sic)all cut away". Make of that what you will. This is a nice thread. I'm enjoying it.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: pavane
Date: 02 Aug 01 - 06:53 AM

I am sure I have seen this as 'An Englishman, Irishman and Scotsman', on these lines
The Englishman said t'was a hedgehog,
The Scotsman he said nay,
And Paddy said it was a pincushion,
And the pins stuck in wrong way.

Subject: Lyr Add: THE THREE WISE MEN OF GOTHAM
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM

Three wise men of Gotham,
They went to sea in a bowl.
And if the bowl had been stronger,
My song had been longer.

--Anon

THE WISE MEN OF GOTHAM

In a bowl to sea went wise men three
On a brilliant night of June:
They carried a net, and their hearts were set
On fishing up the moon.

The sea was calm, the air was balm,
Not a breath stirred low and high,
And the moon, I trow, lay as bright below,
And as round as in the sky.

The wise men with the current went,
Nor paddle nor oar had they,
And still as the grave they went on the wave,
That they might not disturb their prey.

Far, far at sea, were the wise men three,
When their fishing net they threw;
And at their throw, the moon below
In a thousand fragments flew.

The sea was bright with the dancing light
Of a million million gleams,
Which the broken moon shot forth as soon
As the net disturbed her beams.

They drew in their net, it was empty and wet;
And they had lost their pain
Soon ceased the play of each dancing ray,
And the image was round again.

Three times they threw, three times they drew,
And all the time were mute;
And ever anew their wonder grew,
And they could not but dispute.

Their silence they broke, and each one spoke
Full long, and loud, and clear;
A man at sea their voices three
Full three leagues off might hear.

The three wise men got home again
To their children and their wives;
But touching their trip, and their net's vain dip,
They disputed all their lives.

The wise meen three could never agree,
Why they missed the promised boon;
They agreed alont that their net they had thrown,
And they had not caught the moon....

--Thomas Love Peacock.

THE THREE WISE MEN OF GOTHAM

There were three wise men of Gotham
As I have heard men say,
That needs would ride a hunting
Upon St David's day.

All that day they hunted,
And nothing could they find,
But a ship a-saiing,
A-sailing with the wind.

One said it was a ship,
The other he said nay,
The third said it was a house,
With the chimney blown away.

And all the night they hunted,
And nothing could they find,
But the moon a-gliding,
A-gliding with the wind.

One said it was the moon,
The other he said nay;
The third said it was a cheese,
And half o't cut away.

And all the day they hunted,
And nothing could they find
But a hedgehog in a bramble bush,
And that they left behind.

The first said it was a hedgehog,
The second he said nay,
The third said it was a pincushion,
And the pins stuck in wrong way.

And all the night they hunted,
And nothing could they find
But a hare in a turnip field,
And that they left behind.

The first said it was a hare,
The second he said nay,
The third said it was a calf,
And the cow had run away.

And all the day they hunted,
And nothing could they find,
But an owl in a holly tree,
And that they left behind.

One said it was an owl,
The second he said nay,
The third said it was an old man,
And his beard growing grey.

--Anon

I know this is an old thread, but it brought back fond memories; I can still hear my Mum reciting these versions to me.

A few HTML line breaks added. I hope this makes it clearer. --JoeClone, 3-Dec-02.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Ringer
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 01:34 PM

O roopoo: if you tell Americans that the Notts village is pronounced Goat-ham, they'll take you literally. Really, it's pronounced Goat'm (Notting'm, Birming'm, etc).

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 01:05 PM

Good education, there, Crazy Eddie!

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 12:56 PM

Hello Mouldy, You,ve said all that I was going to say about Gotham, especially about the pronunciation - 'Goat-ham is correct. The tales about wise fools are widespread. The natives of Wiltshire are called 'Moonrakers' for their alleged raking the pond for the moon's reflection. Similar tales can be found in Germany centred on a town called Bochum, I believe. I once called into a cafe near there built in a former windmill. Around the inner stair wall was a mural showing the antics of the Bochumers doing the same kind of thing as our Gothamites and Moonrakers. I must stress that this was in the 1950's so I may have the town named wrongly, but the tales were the same. Perhaps a German 'Catter has further information? By the way Mouldy - Long Eaton - got a lot of memories for me. Played football on West Park many times. Plenty of other memories too. I'm a Sandiacre lad myself.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:53 AM

Smugglers were called Moonrakers from the tale that they hid contraband* in the village pond and when getting it out would tell any curious passing revenue man they were raking for the moon. (Well, it's a good story!)

[*is a contraband a group of Nicaraguan musicians? Boom Boom]
RtS

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: IanC
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:21 AM

Finally found the reference to The Wise Men of Gotham going to sea here, in an early version of Mother goose. I thought I'd add it to the existing thread.

Cheers!
Ian

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Crazy Eddie
Date: 07 May 00 - 07:57 AM

When awful silence and darkness reign, Over the great Gromboolian plain, Where the angry breakers roar, As they beat on the rocky shore, Of the hills of the Chankly Bore...............

Mrrzy, It was of course the Dong With The Luminous Nose!

However, my favourite Lear Character was the man "Whose head was ever so much larger than his body, and whose hat was rather small"

Another clue,

Two old chairs and half a candle, One old jug without a handle, These were all the worldy goods, In the middle of the woods, Of ...............[insert name here]

Eddie ;o)

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: roopoo
Date: 06 May 00 - 03:09 AM

As one born in Long Eaton (Derbyshire, but postal address is Nott'm), and one of whose great grandmothers was a Gotham (Nottinghamshire) woman...

There are a few tales about the 3 wise men of Gotham, including the Cuckoo Bush episode (there's a pub of that name in the village). The men saw a cuckoo in a bush, so they encircled the bush with a fence of stakes with the intention of trapping the bird. The tale in my book about the moon episode says that the men were worried about seeing the moon in a pond and decided to rescue it by forming a chain and raking it out. The version of the tale I have says that the anchor man rested his arms and all his friends were drowned! On the same lines there was the man whose horse drank from the pond just as a cloud covered the moon. He thought the horse had swallowed the moon, so chopped it in two with his sword to get the moon back. On another occasion it is said that an eel ate all the fish in one pond, so the angry villagers threw it into another and left it to drown. Then there was the man who felt so sorry for his horse having to carry two bushels of wheat to Nottingham market that he thought he'd carry them himself...while riding the horse.

My book (Folklore, Myths and Legends of Britain" pub by Reader's Digest) has one or two other tales, but also gives a possible reason for the legend of the "wise men": One story states that King John wanted to build a hunting lodge at the village, which was understandably unpopular with the locals, so they decided to put the king off by feigning madness when his messengers came. These rode off again to tell the king he had better steer clear of the nutters at Gotham! These stories inspired a quack doctor called Andrew Borde to write his book, "Merrie tales of the Mad Men of Gotham" in the 16th century.

By the way, we used to called the village "Gotham City" when we were young. I only ever went through it once, but I am meaning to go back to search for family history. My mother tells me that my great-grandmother's family were farmers or farmworkers in the area for about 500 years!

This could explain a lot about me.

mouldy

By the way, the name of the village is pronounced Goat-ham, in case there is any doubt and confusion with the cartoon version!

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Mrrzy
Date: 06 May 00 - 12:16 AM

Also, it was the Owl and the Pussycat who sailed away for a year and a day, to the land where the Bong-tree grows. Wonder where that is...Anway, The Jumblies were gone much lover - In 20 years they all came back, in 20 years or more, and everyone said How tall they've grown, for they've been to the lakes, and the Terrible Zone, and the hills of the Chankly Bore! And they drank their health and gave them a feast of dumplings made of beautiful yeast, and each of them said If we only live, we too will go to sea in a sieve, to the hills of the Chankly Bore!
Extra credit: Who else went to the hills of Chankly Bore?

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 05 May 00 - 10:53 AM

And the guys who went to sea in a seive were the Jumblies, by Edward Lear, in (inter alia, I'm sure!) A Book of Nonsense.
Far and few, far and few, are the lands where the Jumblies live.
Their heads are green and their hands are blue and they went to sea in a seive.
Superb poem, someone ought to put it to music.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: MMario
Date: 04 May 00 - 03:24 PM

Some interesting stuff here 3 Mad Men of Gotham

url=http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/gotham1.htm

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: MMario
Date: 04 May 00 - 03:18 PM

SEAMEN three! What men be ye?
Gotham's three wise men we be.
Whither in your bowl so free?
To rake the moon from out the sea.
The bowl goes trim. The moon doth shine.
And our ballast is old wine.—
And your ballast is old wine.

Who art thou, so fast adrift?
I am he they call Old Care.
Here on board we will thee lift.
No: I may not enter there.
Wherefore so? 'Tis Jove's decree,
In a bowl Care may not be.—
In a bowl Care may not be.

Fear ye not the waves that roll?
No: in charmèd bowl we swim.
What the charm that floats the bowl?
Water may not pass the brim.
The bowl goes trim. The moon doth shine.
And our ballast is old wine.—
And your ballast is old wine.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 3-Dec-02.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Chocolate Pi
Date: 04 May 00 - 03:09 PM

sounds like the wise men of Chelm, who lived somewhere in eastern Europe.
going to sea in a sieve is in some poem in, IIRC, "Sing a Song of Popcorn," a wonderful great big anthology. But it's the Jumbilees, whose hands are blue and whose faces are green (or possibly vice versa) who sail away for a year and a day.


Chocolate Pi (solving the Schrodinger equations for multielectron atoms, o joyfulness)

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Melodeon
Date: 04 May 00 - 03:06 PM

The only story I know about Gotham(notts) is that the three "wise men" saw the reflection of the moon in the village pond, thought it had fallen out of the sky and so tried to fish it out with a net. I don't know any songs about it , the person to ask would probably be Roy Harris.

Viv

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 04 May 00 - 02:59 PM

John Ashton's 'Chapbooks' reprints 18 tales from an 18th century chapbook 'The Merry Tales of the Wise Men of Gotham'.

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 04 May 00 - 02:46 PM

See ZN2571 in the broadside ballad index on my website for "A Choice of Inventions", 1632. www.erols.com. The ballad is reproduced in facsimile in the Opie's 'Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes', Plate 22 (2nd edition).

The 'wise men of Gotham' was a contradiction in terms because Gothamites were held to be incredibly stupid. There was an older chapbook with about a dozen tales of the stupidity of Gothamites.

The only tale I can recall off-hand is "The Penning of the Cuckoo", where in order to catch a cuckoo, the Gothamites built a pen around it. When the pen was done the cuckoo just flew away (no top on pen).

Subject: RE: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 04 May 00 - 01:54 PM

3 wise men in Gotham eh??

But Batman took care of them but good!!

LOL!!!!!

{~`

Subject: 3 wise men of Gotham
From: GUEST,IanC
Date: 04 May 00 - 01:14 PM

Thinking about the recent thread about 3 jolly rogues, here song info: Jolly Rogues of Lynn I wondered if anyone had come across any songs about the 3 wise men of Gotham (Butcher, Baker, Candlestick Maker) who went to sea in a sieve among their many exploits. I found an undated ballad on the Bodleian broadsheets site where their military exploits were recorded (defending the village pump) but has anyone heard of any other songs about them?

The only Gotham in the UK is a small village near Long Eaton in Nottinghamshire. Is that the place? It isn't the Gotham City of Batman fame, anyhow.

Cheers!

IanC