Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Marion
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 06:43 PM

Gary T, your physics makes sense to me. And I also was confused by what kind of case they were recommending and unrecommending. I think I paid about $80 Canadian for my hardshell case. So I wondered if it was a flight case that they were saying wasn't a good idea. But it would be very silly to call the flight cases dangerous, wouldn't it?

Starting this thread has made me think about how much trust I've come to have in the Mudcat community. Even if only person had answered this thread, I would have assumed that the Mudcatter was right and the music therapy guy was wrong.

marion

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 02:12 PM

Good gig bags (I have a Reunion Blues for both my good guitar and for my banjo) cost what the run-of-the-mill hard case cost (i.e., $125-150). The better-to-best hard cases (Calton, etc.) cost $600+. I have a hard case for each guitar, even the one in the Reunion Blues bag. I have a hard case for my mandolins, for my fiddle, and even an old fiddle case that do for my uke.

I never use a gig bag if the instrument is going out of my hands, but try not to schlep the hard case if it's staying near my side. Moonjen ought to see about a good Reunion Blues or Levi case (but don't go for the light ones) and save her joints from bursitis and such.

Another good type of case is the -- damn, can't remember the brand -- which is a gig bag exterior glued to light-weight panels, something like hardened styrophone, inside. Rigid but not heavy, with little blocks which can be moved about inside to cushion many different shapes of guitar. They cost a little less than bottom-line hard cases, and work better for most times than a gig bag. I have one which at the moment doesn't have an occupant (I sold the Danelectro U-2, the Les Paul and Tele have hard cases, and the ES-335 won't fit). Wish I could remember the brand.

Whatever, the point about transmitting energy to the instrument only holds if the instrument sloshes around within the case, and this is true of any case that isn't a good fit for the instrument. If it's loose, the case stops and the guitar doesn't, usually driving the end-pin and block up into the body. Nasty kind of break, too. But a well-fit hard case is still your best protection.

BTW, if the hard case has an arch to top and back, it's stronger than a flat-topped one, unless it's one of those anvil road cases.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: BlueJay
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 01:18 PM

My old wooden case still functions perfectly: plenty of padding, intact hinges and latches, and a custom fit I doubt I'd find in a newer case. Mind you, the exterior shows numerous battle wounds, and the cloth covering is gone or going in many places.
My guitar also shows many battle scars, BUT, as far as I know, none of the injuries occurred with the guitar in the case. Of course, it's never been dropped from twenty feet, either.

Trust my Guild to a gig bag? I think not. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Mooh
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 12:23 PM

...besides the fact that many modern cases are much better than the vintage ones were new...Mooh.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Jo King
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 11:12 AM

Hello,

Mooh, I agree. If any body does this, please keep your origional case, since it may impact on it's value in the vintage market. This way you have a safe guitar, your case will not fall apart further, and you still have it in case a collector values the origional case. Be well,

JK

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Mooh
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 09:02 AM

Jo King, Inuendo? In my what? Nice work there...

Hard case stuff: A friend of a friend, an acquaintance to me, owns a Fender Strat (sunburst '58) which once belonged to Robbie Robertson and was therefore likely played by other notables. Tres cool guitar. Original case. Carrying the guitar in its original case is folly though, because the case is battered beyond providing reasonable protection. (Broken latches, parted seams, missing handle, and so on.) A new molded Fender case would be all he needs to do the job if he doesn't mind separating the two life partners.

I never really thought much about this until last night when I saw an old friend doing the same thing, carrying a custom guitar in a case which gave up the ghost years ago.

To think of it now, I've seen alot of this. As if to separate a guitar from its original case is like taking a child from its mother. When a case is beyond repair, get a new one. The whole point is to provide protection. If duct tape, cord, and stickers are holding the case together, what's holding the guitar together?

No denying that there's something cool, romantic even, about the road-weary case, but I'd rather protect the instrument.

Mooh.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Jo King
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 07:41 PM

Hi folk,

Thankyou for the warm welcome. Mooh, I think I may recognize that sense of humour and instrument lust.

I have been catching up on some threads and I notice an underlying current of inuendo, and carnal desires that tend to bubble to the surface from time to time. I will do my best contribute to various threads, but I'm afraid that I am not skilled in the art of inuendo. However I'll try to keep abreast of the issues in discussion. The length of my offerings may leave something to be desired, but isn't it more important 'how you use it'. At any rate I will insert myself wherever i see an opening, hoping to build on the fevered pitch of discussion. My contributions will likely begin slowly as I feel out the group dynamics, but rest assured that I will come on strong as we all push the height of discussion to greater level of....

Damn,....... I'm spent.

Be well, Jo King

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 11:22 AM

Hey, you must be Jo King! Sorry, it had to be said. Btw, you sound like someone I know who has this guitar affliction as bad as me.

But what do you mean "maiden submission"? That's real folksong material isn't it? It's been a long time since I've had a maiden submit to me, the bloom being off the rose a bit here.

Welcome aboard the good ship Mudcat, where you need that hardshell case (and thick skin).

Peace. Mooh.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 10:54 AM

I can't contribute to this debate ("so why is he wasting our time?" I hear you cry) but a line from a song came into my head:
"Hard case, hard case
Hard cases galore
But the hardest cases in the world
Are the "screws" upon Dartmoor".
Where does that come from ?Liverpool Spinners?Critics?Ewan MacColl?
RtS (the reference is to fearsome gentlemen, suggesting those fine officers in the Prison Service at one of our exemplary penal establishments fit the bill as the superlative example. (ahem) )(IRONY ALERT)

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: GUEST,Jon W. from another computer
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 10:38 AM

First of all, a big Mudcat welcome to Jo King! Yeahhh!

Second, here's a good horror story that I am currently living. My daughter plays cello in the high school orchestra. A moderately priced cello is still more expensive than most high-quality factory guitars. We bought her a used one a couple of years ago. It came with a padded heavy fabric soft case. Last week after her concert as we were walking out the door, the handle fell off the case and it crashed about two feet to the sidewalk. When we examined the instrument we found the fingerboard had separated from the neck. We are now looking for a hard cello case - it's going to be around $200 for the least expensive but even that will be 10 times better than the soft case. I repaired the cello myself yesterday. It was about most scared I've ever been on Halloween but I think it turned out okay - still have to string it back up though.

Frank Ford's Frets.com website has a lot of good information including how to protect your guitars while traveling.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: bbelle
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 09:15 AM

Rick ... My case came with D-rings to attach a strip, with I did. The case is almost as tall as I and it's made out of wood and is very heavy. At 5', I don't have the leverage to carry it for any length of time. I end up having to shift it from shoulder to shoulder and can only carry it by the handle in my right hand, because of the carpal tunnel in my left.

BTW ... I do decrease my string tension, when I fly, but just a little. Among luthiers, there are two camps on this issue, so I stay sort of in the middle.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Jo King
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 01:03 AM

Hello all, I agree fully that a hardshell case is the way to go. I just wanted to add that an area of concern for hardshell cases (or any case) is the possibility of a broken headstock. This is more of a risk on instruments with a notoriously weighty headstock, high string tension, or weak neck at the nut (12-string, mandochellos, or a les paul?). If the instrument is at full string tension in the case, and the case falls on it's face, there will be a whipping action that may cause a failure near the nut, and a broken headstock. I only mention this so that if you are (God help you) shipping your instrument, or surrendering control of it in a significant way, you could reduce the risk of this expensive repair by decreasing the string tension and packing around the headstock inside the case with crumpled packing paper or newspaper. In the event that a fall such as this occurs a hard-shell case is still your best bet. That's it for my maiden submission, as a new member on the mudcat..... nice place you have here. Be well Jo King

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 10:31 PM

Hi Jen. Don't know if this is useful or not. A few years ago I put a couple of fasteners on my heavy case...one about 6 inches from the peghead end and the other right in the middle of the biggest part. I hooked a strap to each end and slung it over my shoulder. Seemed to be a more relaxing way to carry it. Also freed up both hands for other things.

Rick

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: bbelle
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 10:01 PM

My guitar case is wood and far heavier than I should be carrying on my frame. However, I will take the sore shoulders and bursitis, to know that my guitar is safe. I don't check mine, so I'm schlepping it through airports, and I still wouldn't want anything but a hardcase.

Whoever is feeding you that tripe has a screw loose.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Troll
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 09:58 PM

I use a gig bag when I am playing in a small venue with little or no place to store a hard case, eg, A wedding in someones home. But I only use it for the electric guitar.The acoustics ride in comfort in a hard-shell case no matter what the venue.
The only acoustic I EVER put in a gig bag is an Applause (like an Ovation with an aluminum neck) that I gave $50 for. It's about as bullet-proof as you can get. I even sent it trans-atlantic once and it came thru as good(?) as ever.

troll

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 09:38 PM

I love those old pictures of Woody Guthrie, with his Gibson or Martin slung over his back sans case, gettin' ready to bum the next freight train. Jeezus Keerist, I got my antique Martin caught in a 2 minute rainfall this summer while onstage, and the damned thing turned into WET WAX!

Git you a proper case!

Rick

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Hardiman the Fiddler
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

I don't know a thing about guitar cases, other than my friends have them, but I can tell you about fiddle cases. Some fiddle cases have a hard exterior, and the inside is designed to suspend the fiddle, so that in the event of a fall, the fiddle is not apt to be jarred--the shock of the fall is not supposed to be transferred to the insturment.

I don't know if they make such a thing for guitars or not, but I would imagine that such a thing would provide optimal protection.

Greg

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Bernard
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM

My first 'decent' guitar had a soft case, because I couldn't afford a hard one. The back of the guitar was split open in a relatively minor accident. Never again! I've also seen headstocks and necks suffer the same fate...

My preferred case is the Hiscox (UK made) which is an ABS plastic moulding strengthened with some sort of foam resin, and finished with padding. It will take my weight (17 stone) jumping onto it - that's good enough for me (and my guitar!). It has also taken tumbles down staircases ('helpful' souls after gigs!), and my 30 year old Yamaha is still as good as new!

There are other cases which look similar, and are just as light, but can't handle the aggro!!

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 03:58 PM

I use a top-of -the-line Calton bulletproof fibreglass case (made in Canada from Elderly Instruments) when I fly with my guitar. Yes, I check it. I added another 2 d-rings so that I can attach 2 shoulder straps and carry it on my back. When I'm doing gigs that I drive to - mostly on the East coast- I use a very fine Levi padded guitar-bag (also made in Canada) with padded shoulder straps for toting on my back. Never had a problem with either. Strongly endorse both. All the best. Seamus

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM

From a purely engineering standpoint, the best protection is always offered by "deformable" structures. Look at modern Indy or Formula cars. The driver is surrounded by a structure which deforms and sheds parts which effectively transfer the energy away from the inner driver cockpit "cocoon." Years ago when cars seemed to survive accidents with less damage, the drivers did not. I suppose this is the "reasoning" behind the soft case idea, but in fact the soft case simply doesn't respond in that way and transfers the crush energy sooner and with lessened protection in terms of padding, etc.

A good high quality gig bag such as those made by Reunion Blues can be a far better substitute that the chipboard softshell cases, but still will not offer the protection of a good hardshell case.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:38 PM

Hogwash. Pure unadulterated hogwash. Thousands of road musicians can not be wrong. Hardshell cases with an inch or so of padding are the best protection next to flight caes. Cardboard ones with little or no padding should be scrapped. Gig bags of quality are sufficient if the instrument never leaves the musician's hands. Even then there are risks.

My use includes both options as sometimes I only need to carry a guitar a short distance and a gigbag will do. Normally the hardshell cases are used. Any time that a guitar has to ride with anything else out of my hands, the gigbags are left at home. However, a cheap low quality gigbag should be avoided. I only use good ones with lots of padding and reinforcement and sometimes additional homemade padding around the neck if the fit is loose.

If quantity and weight are problems, a folding two wheel cart is worth its weight in gold, but costs about the same as a decent case.

Mooh.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Gary T
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 02:29 AM

I've been trying to figure out what the advice Marion quoted was referring to. First I'll define my terms:

Hardshell case: the good ones--durable shell, thick cushioned lining
Stiff case: glorified cardboard
Softshell case: sturdy fabric with thick cushioned lining
Gig bag: flimsy fabric

The advice under discussion: "Buy a soft guitar case rather than a hard case. A hard case weighs three times as much as the guitar and transfers all impact energy to the guitar in the case of a fall. Do not be deceived by the cheaper cases - $40 buys a bag but little padding, $80 buys something that you can drop and sustain no damage."

I'm not sure what "hard case" refers to. Hardshell cases do not routinely allow breakage from dropping, stiff cases do not weigh 3 times as much as a guitar (as far as I know, anyway).

The "cheaper soft cases" sound like gig bags. The recommended soft cases sound like softshell cases, but $80 sounds way low for a price. (I also wonder how far a drop can be endured and still suffer NO damage.)

Conclusion: I can't figure out what's really being said. Not enough clarity of terms used, too much contradiction with facts and common sense.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Gary T
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:30 AM

Let's try that again, with my freshly reset cookie and a proper close on the big type.

Banjo Johnny nailed the flaw in the quoted advice. IF the hard case in question were pure steel, it might transfer the impact energy to its contents. But seeing as hard cases are made of plastic and LINED WITH CUSHIONING MATERIAL, they absorb the great majority of any blow. In other words, they act like a modern crash helmet, as Davecoje alluded, not like a plain steel pot as some misguided brochure writer seems to believe.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:26 AM

Banjo Johnny nailed the flaw in the quoted advice. IF the hard case in question were pure steel, it might transfer the impact energy to its contents. But seeing as hard cases are made of plastic and LINED WITH CUSHIONING MATERIAL, they absorb the great majority of any blow. In other words, they act like a modern crash helmet, as Davecoje alluded, not like a plain steel pot as some misguided brochure writer seems to believe.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:18 AM

This is the part that is out of whack: < transfers all impact energy to the guitar in the case of a fall. > This only applies if you drop the case directly onto the guitar. As long as the guitar is inside the case there will be no damage.

Just bought three Fender Rhoads pianos at a junk yard. Try dropping one of those babies on your foot, case or no case. == Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:01 AM

Actually the case isn't all that important. The main thing to consider is how far is the guitar going to fall and what is it going to land on after the fall. If you let it fall into a large box of goose down you probably wouldn't even need a case.

Actually I tend to agree with Allen C. and the other folks advising the hard shell case. The guitar is probably more likely to be damaged from crushing rather than falling. One other thought, I had a friend who used his martin case to sit on ~ that is definitely NOT a good idea.

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:44 AM

I stay with hard shell cases for a number of reasons.

(1)If the instrument is secure and has little room to move not much can happen to it.

(2) If it is in a soft case the fall may not damage the instrument, but if you fall on top of it will be shattered. Better to fall on a hard case and hurt yourself a little, you will recover, the instrument may not.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Marion
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:07 AM

While we're on the subject of cases... I've never understood the term "gig bag". Why would you transport your instrument to a performance differently than you would take it anywhere else? Or is the phrase not meant to be taken so literally?

Marion

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: pict
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:00 AM

Bollocks a good Hiscox case is the best protection you can get for your instrument.I once worked in an instrument shop and a customer came back in with a padded gig bag we had sold him the zip had burst open on it when he was crossing a busy street and his guitar fell out and hit the kerb.I would never use or trust them they're crap.

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:56 PM

Hard case every time for my acoustic guitars. I use a gig bag for an electric when I play it in a gig but when I get home it's back to the hard case. I only use chip-board(semi-hard)cases for instruments that I rarely play and never take out of the house since hard cases are expensive. But if one of them does leave home, it goes in a hard case.

troll

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:20 PM

This is some real serious crappola. I suppose these folks sell bridges too huh?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Allan C.
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:10 PM

I'm no engineer, but it sure doesn't sound right to me, either. A well lined hard case which embraces the guitar tightly enough to prevent its moving ought to be able to protect a guitar against moderate impacts. I would think that the lining would help to reduce the transference of impact shock.

On the other hand, I can see how a thickly padded gig bag could accomplish the same thing to some degree.

The difference, in my opinion, is that the soft bag allows virtually no protection at all from crushing.

And now, as a friend of mine is fond of saying, I have told you more than I know.(*G*)

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Oversoul
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:09 PM

If you ride a bike, and you fell, would you rather have on a wool cap or a helmet?

Subject: RE: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: kendall
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:00 PM

You never hear a peddler calling "Rotten fish" I go with the hard case every time. But, I am aware that if I trip and fall I will either drop it or hang on and break my wrist.

Subject: Hard guitar case dangerous in a fall?
From: Marion
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:55 PM

Hello all. I recently came across some guitar-buying advice (in the info packet for a Canadian music therapy school), and I found this:

"Buy a soft guitar case rather than a hard case. A hard case weighs three times as much as the guitar and transfers all impact energy to the guitar in the case of a fall. Do not be deceived by the cheaper cases - $40 buys a bag but little padding, $80 buys something that you can drop and sustain no damage."

Since they don't seem to be recommending a totally soft guitar bag, I assume that by "soft case" they mean those ones that look similar to hardshells but are a little flexible, something like cardboard.

I can understand that those cardboards ones are lighter than hardshells, but are they really safer? Something doesn't sound right here to me.

Marion