Setlists: How do you decide the order?

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do you decide the order?
From: Willie-O
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 07:01 AM

Mostly its been covered here...my approach is:

start brisk
then play whatever I like
close with something I wouldn't want to follow if someone else was playing it! (cause that's the song that you shouldn't place elsewhere in the set where you have to follow it).

I don't generally use a set list if I'm playing solo, just a cheat sheet of titles grouped by practical category--DADGAD, standard, instrumentals.

And I'll throw in a chestnut if it has gone out of circulation. Otherwise I just do them by request. If you have to write "Barrett's Privateers" or "Take It Easy" on a set list, you need some new material...

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do you decide the order?
From: breezy
Date: 11 Mar 04 - 06:45 AM

so its only the folkies that go out fighting now!

A set should leave the audience wanting more, 6/7 songs max.

as steve tilston said 'you can have a surfeit'

and shakespeare too!

if you want to sell Cds the best time is in the interval, so sell yourself in the 1st set, the audience will be with you from then on in.

Harvey's point 'the 1st 30 secs'

Contrast with previous performer's song/tune then contrast your numbers to maintain interest

Have a repertoire of at least 300 songs to pick from.

Change your position, stand -sit, appearance ,colour of shirt for 2nd set??

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do you decide the order?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:19 PM

Yes, I read that story. Slow songs to finish the night and the audience went out unhyped! Some councils have also cottoned on to playing classical music in places where the young gathered to cause trouble..cleared them in no time.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 29 Feb 04 - 12:30 AM

I'm an audient rather than a performer, and find this discussion fascinating. Can i throw in a request in the hopes it might spark someone's memory? (I've asked this on another threat, and no one remembered, forgive the repeat.)

A friend told me she heard a piece on English radio about a town where there was a lot of street-fighting. The report was that several of the nightclubs got together and agreed to play a couple of slow sets at the end of each dance, so that the dancers would go out calm and sweet, not revved up - and the result was a startling diminution of the fighting. Did anyone hear this, and can they direct me to the source: the town, the radio programme, anything? (For something I'm writing.)

Incidentally, I'm interested to hear that the sixth piece should be the strongest: I usually find my favourite track on any CD is the sixth, or sometimes the eighth.

One other audience request: if you're selling CDs, say so, and say where they're for sale. Don't be shy. Just say: "Our CDs are for sale in the top left corner of the room - there, and in the bottom right corner - there, if you'd like to buy them." If people like the gig, and haven't spent all their money, they'll be glad to buy.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: harvey andrews
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:30 PM

I think song order is the number two priority after checking the fly zip before going on stage.
The first song is where you show an audience, probably containing many people seeing you for the first time, that you can;
1)Play
2)sing
3)command both stage and audience
4)Write. (if you're a writer)
Almost all their judgements will be made in the first thirty seconds.
After that I think it helps your planned night to think of the audience as an elastic band...stretch them, relax them, stretch them relax them.
Then try to get it so one song leads into the introduction to the next so that the evening seems to have a pattern to it.
I've never yet been satisfied with an evening in front of someone who goes on without a set list. They tend to sing what they want to hear and don't make the effort of thinking of the audience's needs.
Variety is the spice of a set list.
Don't finish with a death song.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 07:13 PM

Uncle DaveO, normally I would agree about not starting out unaccompanied.
Then last night I heard Jeff Warner in a small venue, and he started the evening sitting on the "stage" (the concert was in a lovely New England church), unaccompanied, and the audience was hooked. After the first song he got up on his stool, picked up his guitar, and away he flew.

Allison

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 04:50 PM

As I said Len, 'Hot August Night'...

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: GUEST,Len Wallace
Date: 28 Feb 04 - 01:12 PM

Good question.

Depends if I'm performing in a folk music concert setting (including festivals) or if I'm working in a pub.

for concerts:
1. Agree with you. Open with a strong number that has a catchy tune, not too fast, but still uptempo;
2. follow it with another uptempo song, perhaps one that has some humour, get people relaxed and settled in;
3. Third song is a tough one. Something a bit more serious in content, but not a slow one;
4. If instrumentals are part of the show, then an instrumental that is really upbeat and gets people tapping their feet;
5. Time to bring it down, you can slow it down and do a very serious song.
6. You can follow with another serious and slower song, but intersperse some commentary, perhaps a joke to offset the seriousness of the song. Song lyrics speak for themselves and can make the point and humour or stories can break up two slow or two serious songs in a row.
7. follow that pattern. The last song of a set should be uptempo, perhaps one of your best instrumentals or most powerful songs to get people to come back after intermission. It's also the way to end an evening so that they want more and ask for an encore.
By the way, always have a song ready for an encore.

It's fine to sing several slow or serious songs in a row, but change the key, not exactly the same tempo and not be afraid to tell stories, add some funny. People need that break, otherwise it can become unrelentless.

Another thing to consider - introducing songs. When I first started some of my introductions were very long - too long. I've cut them down just enough to set the stage for the song. Other times, as I said before, songs speak for themselves, they need no introduction. I've done that towards the last half of a set. I play a fast instrumental and when I end I pause for a few seconds and sing something like Warshaw's "No Time for Love" which is a powerful song, very serious. At the end of that song there's usually a few seconds of silence as people catch their breath and then applaud. By that time they want something livelier, a little lighter.
I usually sing the deathly serious numbers as either second last or third last number in a set because I want to end the sets on a high note.

The other thing I try and do is work off of themes. I usually try to construct a song list where I can interweave the thoughts of the songs , and that can be done through the stories or commentaries between songs. What is it that links this music together? After two or three songs I can then make a break for "something completely different". I wouldn't sing three prison songs or songs about miners in a row (perhaps two and leave the third for the second set).


On the other hands, pubs:
1. Start off with something catchy, something the audience has heard before just to get their attention;
2. follow it up withanother quickpaced song, different key. Trick for concerts and pubs - if you're going to play two songs in the same key then make sure there's enough of a pause, strum your guitar between the two songs in a different key. In my case I run a few notes on the accordion, or strike a different chord and appear as if i setting up for another song.
3. Third or fourth song can be slow.
4. Follow it up with an instrumental if possible.
Too many musicians who I perform see the audience in a pub scene as young and energetic and so keep up a relentless fast paced high volume set. I tell them that it's ad for the audience and bad for the musician. You jst can't keep up that pace all night. What you want to do is bring the audience up and up and up, and then you bring them down with a slow song or ballad. They gain a greater appreciation for the nuances of music that way and it doesn't kill you in the performance.

Len Wallace

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:55 PM

Another vote for Cluin. We usually decide the first and last songs, and then just fill in, trying to vary the selection. I like being able to choose songs according to my humor that day. :-)

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: dog my cat
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 05:26 PM

Heh Heh heh, some great responses.

One of the bands I play in is very strict about set lists, christ its even printed out from a PC.....!

The other band however, I am lucky to see a set list on the back of a fag packet...(sorry American brothers and sisters I mean cigarette carton)

We tend to start with something from our set that is strong and that we know (very important) Then moderate pace and then its anyones guess. Finish with something strong again. Its interesting though that no matter how good the intentions, our lead guitar and singer will always change things around in the middle. So I always reckon they are guide lists.... cos nothings ever SET....

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Roger in Baltimore
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:48 PM

I'm not sure there is a lot I can add, but I can re-emphasize some of what fits for me.

I'm a solo act. Sometimes with a 6-string, a 12 string, and a 6-string in open tuning. Don't switch guitars with every song. Play at least two with the same instrument, preferably three.

You do want to start out with that song you could do in your sleep. Medium to fast tempo is best, as you want to catch the audience's attention and they may not "catch" a slow tune.

Yes, vary keys, instruments, playing style (finger picking, flat picking, etc.), and tempo.

Remember these rules are open to being broken. You would like to keep your audience interested in the music. You may want to do three prison songs in a row, but you should have a point.

I try to avoid alternating fast - slow, fast - slow. I think these changes should be more gradual, more like a gentle wave of tempo.

If you are selling CD's, you're most requested tune just before the break is a good selling point. Remember, it may not be what you consider your best song. It took several years for Loudon Wainwright III to pull "Dead Skunk" from his set list, and I'm sure it is not the song of which he is most proud.

I do believe the creation of a set list is a talent. Some people can do it on the fly. For myself, when I do that, I leave out things I wish I had sung, and it is hard to follow the guidelines I set out.

I wonder what others think about requests? When I hear them, I note that I did hear them. If they are in the upcoming list, I say so. If I like the idea, I'll say "I'll see if I can fit it in." If I don't think I am prepared to do it, I'll say that. I once had an audience member request a song I had literally not played in over three years. I probably wouldn't even have remembered all of the words or all of the chords, and I wrote the song. I declined politely.

Roger in Baltimore

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: GUEST,Claymore
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 03:21 PM

A couple of additions to an otherwise excellent thread.

Play the best song off your CD just before Intermission - it helps sales.

You can putz around with your set list only if you are the only act. If you are the leading act, or doing a set during a festival, you must time your act to the minute, or you will never play that town again. Finishing your act over-time because your set list hasn't been finished, is the biggest fault of paper-trained setoholics. If you see you are approaching your time, it is better to be a couple of minutes under, than over-time.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: GUEST,Claire
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:42 PM

We use set lists for most things, but not when we do background music. We also try to be flexible to respond to the crowd and our own moods. But for a concert we generally do the following...

Alternate tunes and songs, with contrast between each. Contrast can be tempo, key, mood, amount of instruments playing - lots of things

Start with a set of jigs, easy and bouncy, there is lots of room for different moods depending on how they are played, and they sound unmistakably Irish (we are an Irish band)

Next an up-beat, do-it-in-your-sleep song, with a full band sound. Gets rid of the jitters and gets us all working together and lets the sound guy balance the vocals in with the band, early in the show when he is still fooling with the knobs. Even with sound checks, this will need to be done because the crowd is now there.

Usually do a song with sparse accompaniement in the middle of the set and some tune that is different from a jig or reel in the middle of the set (mazurka, hornpipe, polka slip jig).

Finish the set with a strong song, or a jamming set of reels.

Second set can start on a more thoughtful note.
Roughly same format for two sets, but if appropriate, put an a capella ballad somewhere in the second set. This is to give the bottom end to the concert. I think it is important to have something slow and thoughtful to balance out those jamming sets. Gives the show depth.

One more thing. We try to leave out the talking between some of the numbers. This gives a slick rehearsed look and changes the flow just a bit. It builds excitement. Also, I work on my introductions to the songs so that they are clean and really get across what I want the audience to know before listening. Gets them into the song before I sing the first note. I wouldnt' put two songs with lengthy introductions next to each other, so that could affect your set list.


So that is what we do, or some of what we do, some of the time. The key is being in the moment when you perform.

Claire

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: ReeBop
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 12:13 PM

When choosing the order with my duet, we had a few more considerations to...uh..consider. We are both writers, singers and guitar players and we did not awnt either of to be The Front Person. This is how we worked it:

1. a fast paced fun song with each of us singing equally

2. a more moderate, more "crafted" song showing off one of us more than the other

3. Same as 2, but with the other one more in the spotlight

4. Somthing Funny

5. Not as important...maybe a new song

6. THE ONE THAT THEY WILL ALWAYS REMEBER THAT WILL haunt THEM. I'm not saying your best written song...or even your strongest...but, that one that keeps you up sometimes....not necessarily sad...but powerful.

7. Something to bring them down from the last high, moderate, a little quirky.

8. sweet and sour, a tearjerker

9. Something moderate and well written, lyrically stable, solid melody, something that they will remember the next time they hear it, especilly certain lines that might come to mind later and hopefully they will consider them witty but deep.

10. Leave them smiling, easy harmonies that they "recognize" and hopefully will sing along a little. I want them to feel like we had a total experience and can do it again real soon.

So, yeah...drawing up the list was always a bit time consuming and getting us to agree was a different story...but we liked our formula and it really worked well for us. Also, the #6 spot works porportionately (I'm sorry...I know what this word means, but have a difficult time with the pronunciation and therefore the spelling) to the number of songs. A little off center from the middle on the high end...kinda like a M5.

RB

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: DG&D Dave
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 11:30 AM

A lot of the singaround venues I attend are one song per person around the room, which is my prefered club. However, I do sometimes find myself in three song set clubs, in which case:
A fast one,
A slow one,
A funny one
Works for me.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: treewind
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM

Certainly start with something easy and finish with something strong.

Mary and I have a few other criteria, some of which may apply to others:
- mix songs and instrumentals to give her voice a rest
- mix songs with different instruments (e.g. not 3 concertina accompaniments in a row)
- We try to do one half with banjo tuned for G and the other half in other keys (A and C, with capo on it goes sharp). That way, retuning is only needed in the interval with a bit of luck
- insert a "disposable" item one before the end of each set so if you are going to run out of time you can drop that one without regret.
- Do a chorus song early on if necessary to gauge audience's chorus singing ability/enthisiasm. Possibly adjust reminder of program accordingly.
- make a set list. After the gig, edit it to reflect what you actually did and file it, so if you get re-booked you can avoid repeating too many songs.

Lots of other good ideas in the rest of the thread too....

Anahata

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:45 AM

Since I do unaccompianied songs - I tend to string them together by subject in a progression - though the way my mind tends to relate songs together can be pretty bizzare!

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 10:40 AM

It makes a difference whether you are doing background, where nobody is focussing on you, or whether you are doing a concert-type thing, where people pay attention.

When doing background, we go through our book, first playing all the songs in C/Am, then start over doing what's in G/Em, then what's in D/Bm. This is for the harps, so they don't have to keep moving levers. As we do this, we alternate between major and minor tonality, between fast and slow.

If people are listening, we try to add songs they can join in on, or juxtapose related pieces. For example, we could do the Irish song about Stewball followed by the American one.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:59 AM

If you want to see a well planned set list - check out Neil Diamond's double LP "Hot August Night".

Robin

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:58 AM

Leadfingers encapsulated it perfectly! I would only add that its a good idea to put a funny song song immediately before your best wrist slitter. Then it hits the audience twice as hard.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: fiddler
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:50 AM

Read previous acts,

The formula is sadly get it right!

BUT a most important aspect and it is often overlooked to the detriment of many a performer, Solo or group......

Start and finish strong does not always and often does not despite how you would like it to be your favorite songs.

Some of the folk I have had play coming round the mountain at a dance gig (they all asked not to be named) but they all did it 'cos they understood what why and how.

Don't overdoo the bits in between unless you are a master of it folk come to hear the music / dance etc. not the waffle in between even if it is intrinsic to.......

I could go on for hours - I have been paid to do this - It gets boring and sounds patronising if I'm not cewreful - I'll shut up now foulsetroup mines a pint of Bitter please.

Oh yes and for dances I certainly don't use a set list - Keeps the band on their toes and me....

A

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 07:13 AM

In addition to all the good advice already given above:

Depending on the material you have to choose from, you can try to take the audience through musical "images" or "stories". Grouping songs according to some link/thread. For example "childhood", "parenthood", "war", "poverty", "love", etc. But in this case avoid two songs that take the same view of the subject; change the angle of perspective.

I use both 6- and 12-string guitars in my performances (20/80 respectively). I therefore also have to avoid constant guitar changes, constant tuning changes etc

Most important, I think: "play" with the mood. Not simply fast-moderate-slow, but also "funny", "sad", "angry" etc. Goes back to telling a story, as I described above, and is best combined with that.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Cluin
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:18 AM

I find I am more likely to stick to a hard setlist when performing solo. With a duet or band, it usually changes along the way. All is also of course dependent on requests too.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 27 Feb 04 - 02:03 AM

I haven't used a set list for 5 or more years...

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:39 PM

Fast song
Moderate song
slow song
fast song
fast song
moderate song
moderate song
slow song
moderate song
fast song

Encore:   Your Greatest Hit

Final Encore: Something that surprises everyone including yourself

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:29 PM

This is a good thread. I'd like to hear more opinions/advice.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Gypsy
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:15 PM

The chestnuts are definitley the ones to start and end with..........to start, cuz they are easy to warm up with, and to end, cuz the audience loves them. (can you ever end a session withOUT Ashokan?) Otherwise, we split up betwixt the melody/guitar players, so all can do both. Easier for me, all i play is melody.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:06 PM

The first song/tune should be one with which you are intimately familiar - one that you could do in your sleep. It's the one you use to get rid of the jitters, calm down, and get in your groove. Don't put your favorite new song that you learned last week in that spot 'cause you'll forget the words. Save it for mid-set when you're comfortable.

Also, a lot of strings get broken during the first tune of a set because nerves tend to make people play harder than necessary. Start with something catchy and lively, but save the red hot tunes until you've settled in a bit.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:30 PM

I do apologise: I now realise that the whole point of the evening is the music, not the booze...

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Allan C.
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:28 PM

In the few times I have had the opportunity to do more than "onesies and twosies" I usually placed my weakest song in the #3 slot. I figured that whether or not the first two songs captured the audience, a comparatively poor third could do no real harm. After all, if it was poorly received, I still had the rest of the set to build toward a strong finish.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:27 PM

... like a scotch, some Guiness, and then a rum!

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:22 PM

Start with something you KNOW you do well, Finish with something you KNOW you do well and try NOT to make too many mistakes in between !!

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:16 PM

I'm with Cluin: First and last--first. Especially, finish strong!

Now, I am a solo act, singing with guitar, with banjo, and unaccompanied. Although I love my unaccompanied songs, I would never start or finish with unaccompanied.

I use the distribution of banjo/guitar/unaccompanied throughout the program to change the pace, break up the sameness as it were, as well as changes of tempo, of key, and such factors as sea songs, bloodthirsties (now there's a technical term for you!), love songs, comedy songs.

Other than that sort of generalized description, I can't think of any other principles of program planning.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Peace
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:12 PM

When I performed, what I led with depended on the previous act. If he/she/they got the audience really up, I found it useful to start with a soft song. Quiet the audience down, then move into my set. Gotta read the audience. Not suggesting I was always good at it.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 07:11 PM

Well, generally, I have found it useful to allocate one person with pencil & paper to decide the order. Ask each person, collect the money, write it all down, then go up to the barman and give the order to him. The real hassle is sorting out the change...

Robin

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Padre
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:36 PM

Ed,
You've covered all the points really well. If you are a solo performer, I think it is a bit easier than deciding a group set list, where you need to ensure that all of the singers get a chance to take the lead on a song (if they want to, of course).

Padre

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Cluin
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:35 PM

1. Pick the first and last songs.

2. Fill in between songs.

Subject: RE: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:22 PM

I get drunk and trow darts at a dart board with the songs on it. That's why my sets are so short - hard to hit the board!

Subject: Setlists: How do yo decide the order?
From: Ed.
Date: 26 Feb 04 - 06:09 PM

I'd be suprised if this hasn't been discussed here before, but I can't find anything in the archives, nor remember any threads.

I'm not a performing musician, but there seem to be a few general rules:

* Open with something strong (mid to fast tempo)

* Not too many slow (or fast) songs in a row

* Try and vary the key. (Not 5 songs in Am in a row)

* Split the really good songs up, with more towards the end than the beginning.

I'm curious as to how the performing musicians out there decide on their 'order of play'