Its Good Friday

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 11:11 AM

I've been enjoying carrying around a certain topic for meditation, for several days. It's a line of thought and reflection centered on this:

So often, people bring their questions wrapped in an atmosphere of, "Show me why you folks ain't crazy, stupid, deluded," or whatever antagonistic angle one brings to the demand for answers.

One of the reflections resulting from this has been: "OK, if we're crazy, stupid, or deluded, why ask US of all people???"

Fionn, I benefit greatly from the opportunities you provide for these reflections, and they have made many household tasks productive far beyond the tasks done. But I am not sure it furthers our own communication.

~S~

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: GUEST,banjoman
Date: 15 Apr 04 - 06:26 AM

Peter K. You make several good points for your arguement but why begin by insulting my intelligence?
The whole issue is a matter of Faith and cannot be resolved or argued inmerely physical or human terms.

Anyway - its good to see such an issue argued or discussed sensibly.
Happy Eastertide and enjoy the rest of the year

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 12:23 PM

Maybe as a fairy tale the story does deserve respect banjoman. But why would anyone with any intelligence believe it? What was so special about the crucifixion of this particular messiah, compared with the crucifixion of another messiah (also on Pilate's orders) a few years later; or compared with thousands of other crucifixions during that period of Roman occupancy?

How did Christ's death guarantee me the certainty of eternal life with him? I can't see that God sacrificing his son was that much of a big deal, since he seems to have created that son specially to be sacrificed - so no great loss presumably. Why, in any case, would God have got himself into a position of having to sacrifice anything? But assuming for a moment that he had indeed got himself into that kind of fix, to whom was he making the sacrifice? Himself?

Think about it from God's point of view. His best creation so far, the human race, goes off the rails a bit. This calls for punishment. He's already done flooding, so maybe his thoughts turn to wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Here it's helpful to believe also in Satan, the SMERSH of the extra-terrestrial world.) But then he hits on a wonderful solution, breathtaking in its simplicity: create a son who can be murdered alongside all the other victimes of the naughty Romans, and that way the slate can be wiped clean for everyone. Except maybe Judas ("Judas" meaning "Jewish one").

My point to WYSI, in which I notice I had "ascend" as "accend," was a much smaller one. I thought it was Christ's ascension rather than his crucifixion that opened heaven to the rest of us. (Those earlier, Old Testament ascenders presumably had to hang around in limbo in the meantime.) Opinions differ between Paul and the gospel writers about whether Christ's ascension was six weeks after the crucifixion, or close upon his resurrection. But clearly it was not good Friday.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: GUEST,banjoman
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 06:53 AM

Good Friday is a celebration of the fact that Christ took upon himself the sin of the world and sufferred & died so that we may live in the certain knowledge of eternal life with him. This was the fulfilment of the promise given to Adam of a Messiah to lead man back to full relationship with God.
I can't think of anything more deserving of the title "Good" than that.
The Easter Tridium (Maundy Thursday - Dawn on Easter Sunday is the complete Easter celebration emphasising Death to sin and rebirth with Christ. Make no mistake - Christ did suffer on that cross -
In this modern world, it is Good to remember and renew from time to time no matter what our personal beliefs.

I think it a sorry state of affaird when those who do not believe ridicule. I repect every mans right to worship or not as he sees fit. Please shoe us the same

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Apr 04 - 05:28 AM

spirits are highly inflamable - well those that are above 100 degree proof that is. (by definition)

Just playing Devils Advocate (**BG**)

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: kendall
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 08:03 AM

Considering that we leave our bodies behind when we die, how can the fires of hell be a threat to our spirits?

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Apr 04 - 05:12 AM

Hey - call me flippant - but I was rejoicing in the fact that I am alive, healthy, and am not depressed about anything (I can moan but in the great scheme of things these would be small beer)

either that or I was being crude and..........
the fires of hell await my eternal damnation.

at least they would be red hot

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Mark Clark
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 11:03 PM

Perhaps I can help here. I noticed this thread after answering Martin's question about Passover in another thread.

The original name for the Friday of Holy Week, as Susan has indicated, was Great and Holy Friday. In the Eastern Church, we still call it that. The Crucifiction happened following the last Seder of Passover. The Gospels talk about the need to make sure Jesus was dead and his body removed before sundown because, according to law, they couldn't be crucifying anybody on the Sabbath.

The celebration of the Jewish Passover, as the whole Jewish calendar, is based upon phases of the moon rather than the earth's path around the sun. The Paschal (Passover) full moon is the first full moon following the vernal equinox. The Christian Feast of the Resurrection, then, is the first Sunday following the Paschal full moon. At some point an additional provision was made in Canon law so that Pascha may not coincide exactly with the Jewish Passover but must follow it. Also in Canon law, March 21 was set as the constant date for the vernal equinox. Astronomers know that this date isn't constant but that calculation was beyond the ability of the early Church. They were looking for a regularly repeating system to use in designating the dates for the major moveable feasts.

The reason the date for Pascha is often different for Eastern and Western churches is that the Eastern Church still uses the Julian calendar (the state calendar in use at the time the Church began) for reckoning the dates for moveable feasts. So March 21 (the date designated as the vernal equinox) falls 13 days later for the Eastern Church than for those in the Western tradition. So it's possible, as in this year, to have Eastern and Western Pascha fall on the same date but more often, Eastern Pascha is later.

The date for Christmas is a little different story. The ancient Christian Church didn't have a winter solstice celebration so the Church turned the the Nativity of Christ into a much bigger deal and moved the Feast Day to December 25. The idea was to coopt a big pagan celebration that they couldn't get people to quit having. The Eastern Church continued to celebrate Christmas using the old Julian calendar until early in the 20th century. Eventually, all but the most intransigent traditionalists adopted the New (identical to but not called Gregorian) calendar for all the fixed Feast Days. Some Eastern groups still use the Julian calendar for even the fixed Feasts so, for them, Christmas currently falls on January 7 but on their religious calendar, it's still December 25.

I'm not sure how much I added here but at least it's all in one place.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: JenEllen
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:13 PM

The Battle of Clontarf was also on a Good Friday. 1014, I think? Brian Boru died. Dante also entered the Dark Wood on a Good Friday, 1300, and in 1327 it was also the day the Francesco Petrarch saw his Laura and wrote:

It was the day on which the sun deprived of his light,
To rue Christ's death amid his course gave place unto night
When I amid mine ease did fall to such distemperate fits,
That for the face that hath my heart I was bereft my wits.
I had the bait, the hook and all, and wist not love's pretense,
But faired as one that feared no ill, nor forced for no defense.
Thus dwelling in most quiet state I fell into this plight,
And that day gave my secret sighs when all folk wept in sight.
For love that viewed me void of care, approached to take his prey,
And stepped by stelth from eye to heart, so open lay the way.
And straight at eyes broke out in tears, so salt that did declare
By token of their bitter taste that they were forged of care.
Now vaunt thee love which flee-est a maid defensed with virtues rare,
And wounded hast a wight unwise, unweaponed, and unware.

All in all, it is as Greg Orr said (about Petrarch, actually): "One more trapped man of the Renaissance looking for some way out that doesn't lead to God."

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:56 PM

What sort of deacon, Gypsy? Collared (ordained) or governing (like an elder)? Where-at?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Gypsy
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 09:53 PM

A tip of me hat to ye, Susan............you handled that FAR better than i would have! gypsy (who is also a deacon)

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 04:40 PM

Fionn, I don't think you are really asking me to answer informatively, and I don't wish to wrangle with you. Maybe we will meet sometime in friendship around a campfire and have a long, reflective chat about what we each find important and what experiences we have had. Till then I wish you the best.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 03:31 PM

WYSIWYG in what way did the events of Good Friday make possible salvation and eternal life? (Eternal life??? What kind of punishment would that be?) Believers presumably accept that no-one got to heaven before Jesus himself accended into heaven?

By the way, that Catholic Encyclopaedia you recommend as a starting point is about 100 years out of date. It is interesting only as an indicator of what fairy tales the gullible were prepared to believe Once Upon a Time. Take the Catholic Encyclopaedia on "limbo" for instance - a depository for babies who died unbaptised and were therefore unfit for heaven on account of being tainted with "original sin" - this having been visited on them because of events many generations earlier in the garden of Eden. (Whoever wrote Genesis unfortunately forgot to mention original sin and it fell on others to invent it.)

Well of course people are no longer prepared to swallow that kind of tosh, so the rules had to be rewritten. (Yet again.)

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM

Question...

What's the story with the "No Meat" thing on Good Friday?

Just curious....

(We roast a rabbit every Aeostre... Mmmmm.... Bunny....)

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: fat B****rd
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 02:31 PM

I bought 2 6ft. fence posts yesterday (Good Friday) and carried them back home over my shoulder. As I walked down the mainroad who should be coming towards me but one of the local religious groups fronted, naturally, by a man carrying a cross. My wife and I saw the funny side of this but I really wouldn't like the LRG to think I was mocking them.
I just thought I'd put in my Good Friday story. Happy Easter.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 10:44 AM

Here's how we determine the dates in the Episcopal Church. From the Book of Common Prayer, 1979.

~Susan

=============================================================

The Calendar of the Church Year

The Church Year consists of two cycles of feasts and holy days: one is dependent upon the movable date of the Sunday of the Resurrection or Easter Day; the other, upon the fixed date of December 25, the Feast of our Lord's Nativity or Christmas Day.

Easter Day is always the first Sunday after the full moon that falls on or after March 21. It cannot occur before March 22 or after April 25.

The sequence of all Sundays of the Church Year depends upon the date of Easter Day. The date of Easter also determines the beginning of Lent on Ash Wednesday, and the feast of the Ascension on a Thursday forty days after Easter Day.

But the Sundays of Advent are always the four Sundays before Christmas Day, whether it occurs on a Sunday or a weekday.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 10 Apr 04 - 12:58 AM

From the comic Strip BC

Today is a celebration of the day that Jesus was crucified to forgive man of his sins, taking our place, and suffering for us so that we wouldn't have to. I'd have to say that that's very good.

And now it's almost not Good Friday any more.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:25 PM

The Celtic Christian church also calculated the date of Easter differently from the Roman church. The Synod of Whitby and Augustine (not the Big Deal Theologian one) finished that off, along with a difference in tonsure.

Humph! What will those Celts think of next! The very idea! 8-)

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:17 PM

I think that's "commemoration," I hope.

clint

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:14 PM

My understanding is that it's a comemmeration, not an anniversary, and it's calculated something the same as Passover, but if it happens to fall on the same day as Passover they move it according to a supplemental calculation.

I'm also told that "Easter" comes from "Eostre," a Saxon goddess, and the month of April was something like "Eostremonath."

For some reason I really like things like this.

clint

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 05:01 PM

Well the Crucifixion is specifically given as taking place on a Friday in the Gospel accounts. And it's set around this time of year, because it's Passover time.

It's not an anniversary thing, it's a lot more complicated. The Eastern Christians and the Western use a different system for deciding when Easter should be, and most times these don't come up with the same date.

For one reason or another the system for calculating Easter and Passover are also different, so more often than not they don't coincide, though they really should.

Christmas works on a different basis, and there's no attempt to tie up the dates for Christmas and Easter. Why should there be? People aren't celebrating a date, they're using a date to celebrate an events.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:58 PM

"Make peace for the hell of it"

I like that one, Larry, very much.

The Fairfield Four had a rule, I understand, that not only were they not to be rude to one another, but if they were disrespectful of ANYONE, specifically saints or sinners (in their vernacular this would mean Christians and non-Christians), they had to pay a fine. The idea was, not to treat people according to what anyone thought they deserved, but according to how they (the Four) understood they were expected to treat people.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:53 PM

We Quakers aren't big on the idea of Holidays... but have a peaceful and thoughtful day, peace being the great hope... remember that the risen bloke wasn't recognised by those who knew him best, so look for him, not in the tomb or in the pew next to you, but where you'd be the most surprised... in your Moselem neighbor, your homeless neighbor, the worst of us as quickly as the best of us... remember there is that of god in tornados every bit as much as in a nice gentle day. Make peace, ah for the hell of it.
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:53 PM

Finally got that encylopedia entry for Good Friday to open-- here's a bit:

Good Friday
Definition and etymology. Good Friday, called Feria VI in Parasceve in the Roman Missal, he hagia kai megale paraskeue (the Holy and Great Friday) in the Greek Liturgy, Holy Friday in Romance Languages, Charfreitag (Sorrowful Friday) in German, is the English designation of Friday in Holy Week -- that is, the Friday on which the Church keeps the anniversary of the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Parasceve, the Latin equivalent of paraskeue, preparation (i.e. the preparation that was made on the sixth day for the Sabbath; see Mark, xv, 42), came by metonymy to signify the day on which the preparation was made; but while the Greeks retained this use of the word as applied to every Friday, the Latins confined its application to one Friday. Irenaeus and Tertullian speak of Good Friday as the day of the Pasch; but later writers distinguish between the Pascha staurosimon (the passage to death), and the Pascha anastasimon (the passage to life, i.e. the Resurrection). At present the word Pasch is used exclusively in the latter sense. The two Paschs are the oldest feasts in the calendar.

From the earliest times the Christians kept every Friday as a feast day; and the obvious reasons for those usages explain why Easter is the Sunday par excellence, and why the Friday which marks the anniversary of Christ's death came to be called the Great or the Holy or the Good Friday. The origin of the term Good is not clear. Some say it is from "God's Friday" (Gottes Freitag); others maintain that it is from the German Gute Freitag, and not specially English. Sometimes, too, the day was called Long Friday by the Anglo-Saxons; so today in Denmark.

It is certainly a Long Friday on our parish, with a three-hour service. I understand it's often far longer in the South, and that a REALLY good Friday is one where at least one lady is carried out on a board, having fainted from heat and hunger-- since for many it's a fasting day and there is quite an energy expenditure in prayerful observation of the day.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:45 PM

Holy Week (including Good Friday and Easter) are figured from the Jewish calendar, since the events are said to have occurred in conjunction with Passover.

The choice of the dates is not as important as WHAT one commemorates, or THAT one commemorates if one is a believer, or HOW one commemorates according to individual piety; sort of like if you have a pet and don't know when it was born exactly but you would like to have a birthday for it. :~)

It's running pretty slow today, but a good site for encyclopedia-type questions is this one:

CLICK

Although it's Roman Catholic (and I'm not), it is pretty complete and makes a good starting point. It's been running awful slow today though. There is also an Oxford Dictionary of the Faith that is excellent, and many libraries have it. It's fun to browse it on a rainy day.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Megan L
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM

Poor midchuck I would never deride you my dear I'd always far prefer an honest Don't know to an Unco guid. As to the name we were brought up to refer to God as the Guid Maister so perhaps the good comes from some old term like that

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:37 PM

Ok, so far thanks for some good guesses about the "good" part.

Now, for the Friday part.

I have a need to know if Good Friday is based on the current calender we use. For example, Good Friday can't always be April 9th. How do we know that the event of Jesus' death happened on a Friday at all? what year did this happen and on what date?

Why is Jesus' birth celebrated on December 25th no matter what year it falls on (with the exception I think of the Greek Orthodox) and yet some 33 years later no matter what that fateful calender date was of his crucifixion, it's always a Friday?

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Midchuck
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:31 PM

I don't deride Christians because I can't prove to my own satisfaction - much less theirs - that they aren't right.

I don't deride Muslims for the same reasons.

Both feel free to deride me as a damned unbeliever.

One group is definitely wrong, whether both are or not.

What it all means, I don't know.

Peter.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:18 PM

It's a "Bank Holiday" here, and so is Easter Monday. That means that everyone is entitled to a holiday in principle, though these days a lot of shops and such open up. No question of stuff like "The governor routinely gives a 'surprise' half-day holiday"

I mention this, because it's only just occurred to me that that doesn't happen everywhere, and to wonder where it does. That's the kind of stuff you can find out through the Mudcat. (Well, you can hunt around and find it on the net I suppose, but not so interestingly.)

I think, after all these centuries in charge, so to speak, maybe it's not a bad thing for Christians to come up against a bit of derision, since it's always a good thing to practice turning the other cheek. (Not easy at times, but then if it was easy...)

I've always understood "Good" here means "God", spelt the other way.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:14 PM

From http://www.etymonline.com/g3etym.htm

Good Friday - c. 1290, from good in sense of "holy" (e.g. the good book "the Bible," 1896), also, esp. of holy days or seasons observed by the church (c.1420); it was also applied to Christmas and Shrove Tuesday.

In other words, Holy Friday, Sacred Friday. The Friday that is set apart from all others-- sacred, holy.

TGFGF

~Susan

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:14 PM

Yes, and Maundy Thursday was yesterday.

Having been born and raised in the Christian (Catholic) tradition, I've still wondered why it was called "Good". Seems to me (and to Paul, the dude who wrote all them Letters) that the REAL day for Christian celebration would be Easter.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:03 PM

The governor routinely gives a "surprise" half-day holiday to state employees here in Texas. I was working at home anyway, but at noon I was off the clock and it has been a GREAT day for working in the yard. I cleared out a corner I've been meaning to clean up (builder's piled a bunch of stuff there two years ago!) I came in for a little lunch, then I have half of the front yard to mow. It's beginning to cloud up, so perhaps my garden will get some rain this evening. Yup, it's a great Friday!

SRS

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM

Well, believers recognize it as the day salvation and eternal life were made possible. I am sure there are other reasons in the traditon but the theologian and scholar in the family is just now concluding the parish's observation of commemorating the events this day signifies for us, and I can't ask him till he recovers from the rigors of the week's extra services and sacramental actions he has been immersed in. This would be true as well for most of the other Fathers, Deacons, and Reverends around Mudcat.

Mudcat has shown a nice degree of religious tolerance of late. I would hope to see this encouraging trend continue. Perhaps re-labeling the thread as a "Folklore" thread, altho I find that a bit odd, would be an effort in that direction, as people seem to be a bit more respectful in threads "above the line."

~S~

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Once Famous
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:52 PM

sorry, forgot to log-in. That was me one post up.

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM

Not for me! It's just a good old end of the week Friday. A great day to be happy.

As a non-believer in new testament superstition, could someone explain to me why it is called "Good" Friday. Seems to me there isn't much reason to call it good if your savior isn't walking the earth any longer.

What is the origin of why it is called "Good" Friday.

Father? Deacon? Reverend? anyone?

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:38 PM

Pardon me, I believe THE Good Friday is the one meant. It's a solemn day for many of us.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: open mike
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:19 PM

T.G.I.F.!

Subject: RE: Its Good Friday
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:17 PM

Any Friday is good in my book.

A

Subject: Its Good Friday
From: Mr Red
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM

its good any day...............