Changing the words

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 09 Nov 04 - 12:31 AM

I like the version of Man of Constant Sorrow on Oh brother...
Granted, i haven't heard any other versions...:0)

Just a thought on changing genders- it's a lot more fun not to. I once sung the Kinks' All Day and All Of THe NIght, including 'girl i want to be with you all of the time' and accompianied by a lot of, um, suggestive posturing...that got a good reaction. I did get hit upon by a couple of ladies afterwards, though! :0)

I recently heard the Whites Stripes song Fell in Love with a Girl sung as fell in love with a boy, and i just thought, 'well, it's ok-but what's the point?'

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 06:54 PM

hey always study

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Joe_F
Date: 07 Sep 04 - 06:26 PM

Murkey: She preferred people to think she was looking for her nightstick?

*

Here is a change that annoys the hell out of me, because it was clearly deliberate & reveals that the changer did not understand the song. In "The Prodigal Son", Kipling wrote

My father glooms and advises me,
My brother sulks and despises me,
And Mother catechises me
Till I want to go out and swear.

The son (as we have heard) is only a *bit* of a swine. He will not, even in imagination, curse his mother at the dinner table -- no, he imagines excusing himself, as a well-bred person might do who needed to spit. Leslie Fish makes it

Till I want to stand up and swear

-- ruining a fine comic touch. (She also mispronounces "catechise", but that is far more forgivable.)

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST,Paranoid Android
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 10:11 PM

POETIC LICENCE !!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST,Murkey
Date: 06 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

I always like the story about Kate Rusby changing a name from Willy to Billy because she couldn't cope singing, 'Where is my willy'!

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST,Conscience
Date: 20 Jul 04 - 07:32 PM

"theres always room for improvement

Not to the writer there's not Breezy!"
Harvey then

"then the frightened men... and stood before their wives"
Harvey now

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GLoux
Date: 05 May 04 - 11:39 AM

The soundtrack to O Brother has four version of I Am A Man Of Constant Sorrow. To my ear, the only version close to Emry Arthur's version is Norman Blake's instrumental rendition (no words). The two bluegrass versions by the Soggy Bottom Boys are annotated with "Arranged by Carter Stanley". John Hartford's version is attributed to Ed Haley.

Interesting...

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 May 04 - 04:02 AM

Coming back very late to this thread.

If really nearly nobody notices a physical impossibility in a song, it isn't worth the effort to make the lyrics fit the reality.

I remember an article by Martin Gardner many years ago listing instances in pictures, poetry and prose in which wrong positions, shapes and motions of the moon have been shown or described. Many, many instances, whereas everybody gets the motion of the sun correct. It still seems a bit curious to me that everybody knows how the sun moves and not many notice how the moon moves. So if 'Farewell to Nova Scotia' would start with the words 'The sun was rising in the west...' I guess there would be more complaints though that also only requires the earth changing its rotation for a short while.

But as I said above, if nobody really notices ...

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:00 AM

Barbara,

It was Carter and Ralph (both of the Stanleys) that I heard doing this version of Man of Constant Sorrow from and old radio broadcast dwn in Florida I believe. Carter died in 1966 so it's quite a while that it's been sung that way.

Re the general subject of lyrics changing, we used to call it the folk process. If the change works and people like it and sing it, it will live on. If it doesn't work it will die a natural death.

To me that's what makes folk music/fiddle tunes/banjo tunes/ songs etc so interesting. If all songs were written down once and always sung the same way I'd only need a fraction of the shelf space that I now need for my 78's, vinyl, tapes and CD's.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Betsy
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 11:00 AM

All I would add to your wonderful piece McGrath 27 Apr 04 - 10:36 AM
is, that with a written piece ,there is uncertainty at the time of writing , first time of performance , and maybe after a couple of more performances the writer may feel the need to "tweak" some parts of the song.
If someone feels they have to "tweak" the song or tune in order to learn it / to suit their limitations or capabilities - I as a song writer will not be unduly upset, providing the person who is singing my song , has his/her heart in the right place" - and I haven't found anyone who didn't.
Interpretation of a song is a slightly different thing, and I have only once fell victim to someone who did'nt understand that the "Song" was a happy nostalgic song and not a reflective dirge.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:50 AM

As a performing songwriter, I usually sing my own songs throughout a set. As a forgetful old fart, I usually end up forgetting the lyrics to songs I have written. Thank goodness the "folk" process and my songwriter's brain allow me to re-write some of these lyrics on the fly.

When I have heard others sing my songs, either recorded or live, I always notice the changes they have made to my lyrics. I am thrilled when they have chosen to learn and perform a song I wrote. It doesn't bother me in the least to have the words changed. Vive la difference!

Mike

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 10:22 AM

On Martin Carthy's 1968 album But Two Came By I was surprised to hear him sing the opening lines of "The White Hare" as:

Near Howden town, near Howden town, as I have heard them say
There once was a white hare that used there for to dwell

Where I would have expected the first line to end in "tell", as I recall Joseph Taylor's and also The Watersons' version does. I put it down to a natural change, mistake whatever. The two tracks later on "Poor Murdered Woman" he sings the opening lines as:

It was Yankie(?) the Squire as I've heard them tell
He went out a hunting all on one fine day

where I'd have expected "say" instead of "tell". Strange that there are two changed oddities on one LP, which somehow complement each other.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 28 Apr 04 - 07:13 AM

Hey, Yorkshire:

The changes that I make in lyrics of traditional songs are mostly when I feel that the line doesn't fit the rhythm of the song. I'll have to think for a minute of an example. Most recently, I guess, the bass singer in my quartet was having trouble with some of the words on a song he was singing the lead on, to the point where he was ready to give up on doing it. I ended up learning the words of the song, and took a word out of a line or two so that the phrasing fit the rhythm of the song, and he was able to learn it. The lines as written were:

You know that Daniel he prayed
Three times a day
God sent down an angel
And rolled the stone away

I just took "down" out of the third line because Joe was having trouble fitting all the words into the beat. That didn't really change the meaning of the song... just made it flow a little more comfortably (although I didn't have a problem singing it with all the words in..)

I'll have to think of some other examples. Mostly it's fitting the lines a little more comfortably to the rhythm (although there are plenty of songs where the lines don't fit, that I like just as they are.)

Now, on my own songs, I don't consider them finished until I've lived with them for a couple of months. Just to keep the song coming, I'll often write a couple of filler lines... lines that complete a verse that I'm not really happy with. As I live with the song, different lines will often come to me and I'll drop the old ones out.

Another thing that's different about writting songs more in the tradition of black gospel, which I've been doing recently, is that it's not unusual to change the lines to a song, within the song. For example, I just wrote a song, Lord, Send Me. I First was singing a line:

"If you're walking by my side, then I'll never be denied." The words fit fine, and the meaning of the line made sense to me. As I was singing it more, I changed it to "If you're walking by my side, then I'll be justified." That made sense, too. Now, I usually sing it "If you're walking by my side, then I'll be satisfied." But because the line is in the chorus, which is repeated several times, and when I do the song with the group, they are just singing "Ooooh" in harmony on that line, I may sing "justified" one time around, and "satisfied" another.

Writing a song is a process and the song evolves through time. For me, it usually reaches a final form that I am happy with and I rarely change a line, years later.

(I have no intention of changing the new moon rising line, for example.) The song it's in, Taste Of Sin is a humorous song about a guy who is picked up by a woman in a bar one night, and when she takes him out in the country in her car, they get in the back seat, and she has her poodle in the car with her. When he starts to make a move on the woman, the dog starts growling, and he twists the dog's ear to shut it up. She gets angry, and she throws him out of the car and he has to walk home. And he looks up and sees the new moon rising. Maybe you can see it rising better after you've had a few drinks.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 11:07 PM

I'll give some examples as this thread goes along of changes I've made in words and why,

So Jerry, besides the "new moon" change, what other time(s) have you changed the words of a song & why? Do you only change your own songs, or have you ever changed someone else's song -- or maybe a trad song?

YY

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:36 AM

There's often a uncertainty principle in songs as they are sung - there's a range of mini-variations within a particular variant; and likely enough a range of variants in addition.

I think expecting that a song can be fixed like a fly in amber is unrealistic. If it could be done it'd mean the song was probably dead. That doesn't mean that all the variations and the variants are equally good, or that there is anything wrong about someone who loves a song, and especially the person who wrote it, in the case of a recent song, trying to defend it against the kind of changes that weaken or distort it.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Apr 04 - 10:12 AM

Mary in Kentucky said:

That line about the new moon rising would distract me so much I couldn't enjoy the image or the song. (To me, a new moon is one night each month as listed on my gardening calendar when there is no moon...a black circle on the calendar.)

From my unabridged The Random House Dictionary of the English Language, under "New moon":

the moon either when in conjunction with the Sun or soon after, being either invisible or visible only as a slender crescent.

Also, see Sir Patrick Spens:

"Late, late yestreen I saw the new moon,
Wi' the auld moon in her airms"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:15 PM

Just wasn't thinking, Mary... I could have made it any phase of the moon. Funny thing is, I sang that song for years and only one person seemed to catch it...

Jerry

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 10:10 PM

That line about the new moon rising would distract me so much I couldn't enjoy the image or the song. (To me, a new moon is one night each month as listed on my gardening calendar when there is no moon...a black circle on the calendar.)

Which reminds me of a similar distraction in Dan Fogelberg's song, "Run for the Roses" (which is heard around here a lot this week ;-))!

Born in the valley
And raised in the trees
Of Western Kentucky
On wobbly knees...

Everybody knows race horses are not raised in Western Kentucky. ;-) Seems like some songwriters just have to make the words fit, even if the facts are wrong.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: YorkshireYankee
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:50 PM

One possible reason to change the words to a song (particularly if it's a traditional one) is that it's in a dialect you can't really do justice to.

For example, a song I *adore* singing (I think its title is "Bonnie Young Man", but I'm not sure) is in Scottish dialect. The first couple of verses go like this:

There cam a young man to ma daddy's door, ma daddy's door, ma daddy's door,
There cam a young man to ma daddy's door, cam seekin' me to woo

Chorus

I took him in, into the bring. I gave him bread and ale to drink
But ne'er a broon eye would he blink, until his wain was foo

For years (and years... and *decades* actually), I wrestled with whether to sing it:

1) with a Scottish accent -- given that even *if* I do a reasonable job of it, there's the issue of whether or not it's inappropriate and/or presumptuous and/or affected for me to "fake" an accent that's not even part of my own background/family heritage (which in itself is (and -- I am sure -- has been) a subject for an entirely different thread or 80)

2) without a Scottish accent, in which case I think it sounds pretty strange & just doesn't work

3) not to sing it at all -- or only when no-one else is around

4) go ahead & sing it with a Scottish accent -- but introducing it with a sort of "apology"

Over the past 2-3(ish) decades, I have opted for #s 1, 3 &4... but -- after a recent discussion with others who particularly appreciate traditional songs/singing, it was suggested I sing it "in my own voice", changing words here & there as necessary to make the song work; not necessarily changing the word "wain", for example -- you can explain to an audience that it means stomach if you need to -- but changing it perhaps to something like this:

There came a young man to my father's door, my father's door, my father's door,
There came a young man to my father's door, came seekin' me to woo

Chorus

I took him in, into the bring. I gave him bread and ale to drink
But never a brown eye would he blink, until his wain was full

Have only just started working on it, but think this might be the best option...

Cheers,

YY

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Leadfingers
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 02:49 PM

In common with a lot of singers , I find that no matter how carefully I have got the words to a song down , by the time I have been singing it a year or three some of the phrasing has slipped , simply because
the written words are NOT a phrase that I would use as a matter of course. Its often amusing to write out the words you sing , then cross check the lyrics that you originally learnt. This is in NO WAY
disresprctful to the original writer , but simply a fact that we dont all use the same phraseology.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: KateG
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:50 PM

Watch the new moon rising on the crest of the hill. (Jerry)

To be dreadfully pedantic, the new (and very old) moon rises and sets with the sun. When it's waning it rises/sets just before the sun, and when its rising, it rises/sets just after the sun. It slips about an hour a day, and two weeks later the full moon rises when the sun sets, and sets when it rises. My personal mnemonic to tell the half moons apart is "the waning moon weeps in the west," i.e. the horns point to the west.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Apr 04 - 01:06 PM

Watch the new moon rising on the crest of the hill. (Jerry)

You made me look twice, Jerry, and I don't mean the point the other guy meant. If I am not very much mistaken, the new moon (up to a couple of days old) always rises at day time when the sun is already out. At night time, the new moon goes down, doesn't it? Daytime rising of the moon can be watched, of course, but even if hard pressed I can't recollect any 'rising of the moon' song describing day time.

Either you have actually meant in that song the rising of the moon at daytime or you have described something which no man's eye has ever seen or I am mistaken.

Wolfgang (curious)

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 12:49 PM

When people do change the words to a song here on Mudcat, I do wish they would acknowledge that and also post the original words, if they know them, so we can better appreciate their "improvements." I try to do that myself, and I often have been know to change the words.

Changing words may be more necessary when converting a poem to a song, to make it more easily understood or to fit with the proposed musical arrangement. I've done that with several sea poems by C. Fox Smith.

I do think that people who plan to record a song, either in its original form or as changed, should contact the original composer for permission. And if the composer is no longer alive or if the copyright has run out you're pretty much free do do what you want, unless you're recording someone's new arrangement.

Charley The Noble

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST,pattyClink
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 11:48 AM

I agree with Q, leave it alone if the composer is living.
In the early decades after he/she/its death, think real hard about making changes, and if you're 'correcting' something you better be sure and corroborate your brilliant changes.

As for ancient, dusty, endangered or unsung songs that need help to be singable and performable, change away if it will give them a new lease on life, THAT's why there's a folk process. An unsung song does no one any good.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Apr 04 - 08:31 AM

And I used to call my cat Barney (who was named after a very ritzy clothing store in New York City) Barnes The Noble, after the book store chain, Barnes And Noble.

He liked it, too..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 10:43 PM

LOL! I'm sure she appreciated the sentiment!

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Midchuck
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 09:32 PM

My mother's name is Marjory. My late father used to refer to her, in his more frivilous moments, as "The Marge of Lake LeBarge."

FWIW.

P.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 06:59 PM

I just remembered an example of what I really hate--although it is a poem/reading instead of a song.

The famous poem by Robert W. Service, "THE CREMATION OF SAM McGEE" begins:

There are strange things done in the midnight sun
By the men who moil for gold;
The Arctic trails have their secret tales
That would make your blood run cold;
The Northern Lights have seen queer sights,
But the queerest they ever did see
Was the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge

Several years ago, I heard this read on the radio by a well-known local story teller. He got to the last line of that introductory verse, and changed 'marge' to some weak, silly, vague word (I can't even remember what he used now) because, I assume, he thought we poor listeners wouldn't know what a 'marge' is!

It makes no difference whether we know what a marge is, THAT can be looked up if it is at all important...the man wrote MARGE!

Similarly, various people try to re-write Hamish Henderson's "The 51st Highland Division's Farewell to Sicily" because it is written in dialect!

"The pipie is dozy the pipie is fey
He wullnae come roon for his vino the day
The sky o'er Messina is unco and grey
And a' the bricht chaulmers are eerie"

fine! It takes a wee bit of effort to get the references, but it 'feels' right in dialect, and changing it does a disservice to the intent. Henderson could no doubt have made it an English song if he had wanted. I feel that mostly, if you can't do the language, do a different song. Sometimes, even in Scots dialect a slight word or two change, if they are really coherent, can be ok, and help the flow....but not when it alters what the song is about.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST,VIN
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 06:30 PM

I'm probably a guest at the mo cos me cookie's crumbled!

I've just learnt 'Down in the Coalmine' thinking it was written by a J. B. Geoghegan only to discover his is a variation on an earlier version as shown in Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads: BalladsCatalogue: Harding B 11(4304).. So i wonder who the original writer was and if he/she would mind the words bein altered all these years later.

With to-day's modern recording (written or whicheverway) techniques, the original author/writer/composer of a song/tune will probably always be on record if the author desires. Which is good cos its nice to be able to go back and view the 'original' many years later.

I don't see anything wrong (and it's probably inevitable) in singing/playing with a different variation so long as respect/acknowledgement is shown to the original author/composer (as in classical music e.g variation on a theme of.......). That's folk music folks!! Sorry to be boring........

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 05:29 PM

Oh, and Don, that bluegrass version of "Man of Constant Sorrow" has been kicking around quite a while. It belongs to Ralph and Carter Stanley, or maybe just Ralph. All "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?" did was bring it to the attention of those of us who don't listen to bluegrass.

How much of our bias about a song's changes is based on which version we heard first?

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Barbara
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 05:24 PM

Interesting question. I am definitely of two minds about this. Part of me loves a change that makes a song closer to speaking my mind; and part of me deplores the loss of the history and the loss of the original speaker's voice.

For example, "I'm Going To the West" had the gender changed, apparently by Peggy Seeger. It takes it from a man's song, leaving his more traditional wife, into a woman's song, leaving to go West on her own.

Does it matter if the song's author is known and alive? What if that person approved the change? A friend of mine rewrote Richard Thompson's "We'll Sing Hallelujah" so that the verses are upbeat and match the chorus. He has Richard Thompson's permission, but it still sets some of our friends off when he sings it.

And I have another friend who rewrote Sydney Carter's "Silver in the Stubble". He disliked all the verses about lusting after ladies and attempting to be good by going to church, so he changed it into a song that praises his lady while lamenting the loss of their youth.

The "Silver in the Stubble" change bothers me much more than the "Hallelujah", and I can't exactly tell you why, unless it's because the first way I hear a song is the way I become imprinted on it. I like both of the songs in their original versions, so it's not that.

I think, as a rule, it's silly to change gender in story songs; ballads. I sometimes like it when it's done in a love song, or one told in second person or first person.

Some dialect songs I change; some I just don't sing. Look at the discussion of "Master of the Sheepfold". How many of us would sing it in its original pseudo-darkie dialect? I love the sentiment of it: the Master is at pains to make sure we are ALL gathered in, not just the good ones; but to sing it in black dialect seems to me to make it mawkish and patronizing.

In all cases, though, I like to see the original preseved. Maybe it's a case of what's more powerful will survive.

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 05:12 PM

One of the songs I wrote, Taste Of Sin, has the line "Watch the new moon rising on the crest of the hill." One time after I sang it, someone came over to me from the audience and said "How can you see a new moon? It is completely dark." Now, I taught astronomy for a few years, but before that I was normal, and thought of a new moon as probably a quarter moon. Of course, the person was right, and I agreed with him. I told him that it is a very mystical gift to be able to see the new moon, and was sorry that he didn't have it.

And I still sing it "Watch the new moon rising."

Jerry

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: mg
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:12 PM

I urge restraint in changing the words. And I can not think of a single reason why it would ever be necessary to change the gender of a song. THen the next person comes around and makes changes to change it back, not knowing the original song...it gets ugly. I do believe that changes are necessary when it comes to very offensive lyrics and even very awkward lines...but I believe in never changing the gender. Prefer that location not be changed either..

mg

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Betsy
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM

Well said Sooz - and Mary, you don't have to use words like "betrayal" . Keep your positive phrasing - "keep the song alive" etc.
When you know a word doesn't fit, because it is dated , sounds clumsy in todays ( good ) English, or simply lost its' meaning, then change it if it helps to keep the line /song together. We've all looked through Edwardian and Victorian poetry and song books, and ,books local to where we live trying to unearth a Gem. Most are unusable because of the type of wording / phrasing they contain, which is too distant to the way English is spoken, sang and expressed these days.
Feel comfortable singing the song , and if some clever clog notices you have changed one or two words - then tough luck on the Sad B*stard.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Sooz
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:04 PM

Evolution, Mary. The dinosaurs are extinct because they couldn't adapt quickly enough to survive in a changing environment.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:37 PM

Does anyone find that - whether they like it or not - the words get changed during the years of singing a song to fit in with one's own way of speaking? I wouldn't in the course of a normal conversation say 'doth' or 'thou' and when I look back on my singing of traditional songs that were acquired from written sources, the old words have evolved into more modern ways of speaking.
Is this betraying the origins of a song, or an unconscious act that helps to keep the song alive?

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: semi-submersible
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:24 PM

I once heard a filk singer remark on her difficulty in remembering the recorded (frozen) version of her song "Green Eyes," as all the changes she had made remained in her mind. Another singer the night before had also mentioned that her song "changes every time she sings it."

The story, not just the words, evolved. A work ever in progress? Why not?

Then there's change to correct errors. For example, Wilf Carter recorded:
When I was a lad, Old Shep was a pup
Over hills and valleys we'd roam.
Just a boy and his dog, we were both full of fun.
We grew up together that way.

Surely the second line should have ended, "stray"? But I don't have other sources to compare, so I sing it the way I think it should have been. (No doubt I'd take more pains to check if I were singing in public.)

Maureen

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Betsy
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM

Wolfgang you're a pedantic twat.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:41 AM

German singer songwriter Wolf Biermann's best known song is arguably 'Soldat, Soldat in grauer Norm'. The best known line from this song is the before last line, identical in each verse, five words: 'Soldaten sehn sich alle gleich'.

'Soldiers all look alike'. To the author's dismay much too often this line is rendered as 'Soldiers all are alike'. This is completely different from what Biermann wants. In many interviews I heard (or read) him complaining about this particular line being sung wrong.

I just looked into the web: 15 wrong quotes, 18 correct quotes.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST,KingBrilliant
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:03 AM

Omlit & I have to sing "jolly sailors bold" instead of "jolly seamen bold" when singing Lovely Nancy. Else we can't keep straight faces......

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GUEST,Sooz(at work)
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 07:58 AM

Many writers change the words to their own song either by design, evolution or accident. Apparently Jez Lowe forgot the words of Durham Jail during a performance and had to make new ones up as he went along. He still keeps the line "I hope they let me keep the stripey jumper"!
John Conolly changed the chorus to "Punch and Judy Man" after singing it for 30 odd years simply because he fancied a change! (I like the mark 2 version)
Mr Harvey Andrews himself rewrote "Gift of a brand new day" so it must be alright! (He was also kind enough to allow me to include a verse of my own in Wonderful Day - thanks Harvey, it always goes down well and I always acknowledge that the best three verses are yours)

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Splott Man
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 07:48 AM

Ralph McTell used to tell the story of when he performed at a festival in Ireland and sang his song "Fom Clare to Here" which had been an Irish hit for the Fureys - in a slightly altered form.
"..by the end of the song I'd learnt their version!"

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 06:54 AM

Ladyjean:

I've done Uncle Dave Macon's version of Morning Blues with one lyric change. I change "makes a nig**** lips go flippity flop" to "makes my lips go flippety flop." I've also stopped saying, "Are you ready, boys?" when singing with my black gospel quartet because black men have been insulted by the name too much in the past. I don't need to use that word... I can substitute, "fellas," just as easily.

When I'm just with the guys, we have a lot of fun kidding around, because there is no question of how much we respect and love each other. Frankie, one of the men in the group (who is hardly a boy at 79) gets a big kick out of saying "play that gittar, white boy" when I get rocking, and we all broke up in practice recently when Frankie was really getting in to a song and I said, "Sing that song, colored person." But, I would never use the "n" word, anywhere.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: LadyJean
Date: 22 Apr 04 - 12:00 AM

At a Transylvania college choir rehearsal, the guy we all called Sugar Bear began his solo of "My Old Kentucky Home".
"The Sun shines bright on my old Kentucky Home"
"'Tis summer the darkies....Young Folks! are gay."

Here in Pittsburgh we revere Stephen Collins Foster. We sing his songs, and name things after him. But we alter his lyrics when he uses improper terms for people of African descent. Those words may have been acceptable in Foster's time, but they are offensive now.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 10:30 PM

And about time, too! We have been subjected to the horrid Punch and Judy shows (the origin of Morris dancers) since at least S. Pepys time). They must go the way of the Child ballads.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 09:53 PM

New Ruling For Song Lyrics

As from April 1st the new Government Citizenship Law takes effect, which bans violence in song lyrics. It only affects 'new publications' of old and new songs. The British Library are allowed to archive old original verse, but copying in any form will be illegal. Publishers have hurriedly changed the lyrics to many of our well-loved songs since the Citizenship Act of Parliament was passed in January 2004.

This also affects Morris Dancers who will no longer be able to use props of violence such as swords and heavy sticks. However they will be able to still use hankies and flower garlands. It will be sad to lose the Mummers around the country, as it seems it will be impossible to put on a show without violence. Mummers and 'old time song lovers', have been protesting throughout the streets of Britain with their "We Want Violence" banners.

Whiskey in The Jar lyrics shown below is typical of the changes that have been made:

From:

As I was going over the Cork and Kerry Mountains

I spied Captain Farrell and his money he was counting

I first produced my pistol and then produced my rapier

Saying "Stand and deliver for I am a bold deceiver"

To:

As I was going over the Cork and Kerry Mountains

I spied Captain Farrell and his money he was counting

I first produced my pencil and then produced some paper

Saying "Can I help you sir for I am a good calculator"

As a staunch believer in non-violence, I fully support the governments stance in this matter and know it won't take long for all of us to get used the new lyrics and festival changes. Shame about the Mummers though!

Colin Matthews http://www25.brinkster.com/folkorbit/

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 07:13 PM

Songs take on an independent existence once they are sung in public, and the person who wrote the song in the first place doesn't have the power to be the only one to change them. Songwriters will typically change how they sing a song over the years, and that implies that the initial version isn't necessarily the last word.

Though when the changes don't seem like improvements to the person who created the song it's no wonder if they feel irritated. (If the changes do seem like improvements they are likely to be taken on board.)

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Willa
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:51 PM

Harvey;I learnt John Conolly's 'Punch and Judy Man' using his original words, only to find that he'd changed them the next time I heard him sing the song. His prerogative, of course, but I stick to the original version.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:46 PM

But some how songs have gained a life of their own as the pass from person to person..........

Wouldn't it be a wonderous thing if the people of the ............

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:44 PM

Definitely agree on your point about making changes while clueless as to the original "feel" of a song, Bill D. One that really gets me gnashing my teeth is the recent up-tempo Bluegrass version of Man of Constant Sorrow, with the repeated last line of each verse in third person. The first time I heard it done this way was in the movie "O Brother, Where Art Thou." Now, I'm hearing other people sing it that way (learning it from the movie, I guess).   

Well . . . I guess that's the "folk process" (sigh). But as Dr. David Fowler, an English professor of mine who taught a course at the U. of W. called "The Popular Ballad" said, "The folk process does not always improve a song." And he went on to give some horrible examples (e.g., a haunting ballad like The Three Ravens morphing into Billie Magee Magaw).

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Burke
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:43 PM

If you change the words to a song that is under copyright, you must have the permission of the copyright holder. You can probably get away with performing different words, but a recorded version would need that permission.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:20 PM

theres always room for improvement

Not to the writer there's not Breezy!

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 06:12 PM

well, there is 'changing' a little bit because you remembered differently, or because something just sounds better to you.....and wholesale messing with a song and its basic character (and often the tune) just to have YOUR version.

One example of this is what Ed McCurdy used to do in order to copyright stuff.

I agree that one major characteristic of folk music is that it IS done by 'folk' who process it as they absorb it and pass it on, but it makes me sad to hear songs that the singer has no idea of the original 'feel' and treatment.

I am particularly grumpy when I hear Bluegrass bands, with their insatiable hunger for *more* material, speed up old standards and ruin the mood with impunity.

I guess I just hope & plead for some taste and thought about it all.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 05:50 PM

About 200,000 years ago we all lived in Africa and spoke the same language. Ever since then we have been moving and changing. It is what we have done, it is who we are.

Is it rich or what?

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Firecat
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 04:42 PM

I do change words sometimes, usually cos I can't remember the proper ones! :-))

But I also change the gender i.e., in the song if the lyrics say she, I usually sing he, and adapt lines if it doesn't make sense.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Ed.
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 04:31 PM

LOL Jerry! *grin*

It's a different question, in a way, anyhow

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 04:26 PM

Thanks, Ed.. Me being a new-timer and all..

Jerry

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Ed.
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 04:23 PM

I know this subject has been touched on in other threads, but I don't remember seeing a free-standing thread about it.

Try Are folk lyrics ever 'wrong?'

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 04:14 PM

Looking at older ballads, many people have "changed the words"; for many songs we have no record of the "original."

I was looking through "The Joan Baez Songbook" recently. One cluster often discussed in Mudcat is the tale of a female who disguises herself to be with her -soldier-sailor lover. Baez gives a variant, "Jackaroe," a title seldom seen; she probably took it from "Lily Monroe" in one of the Lomax books and touched it up. Her version suits her style. I prefer other versions, but that is my take; others will prefer her rendition.

I think singers should be careful about changing the words of a song by a living composer- a little bit of stepping on toes- if not getting into copyright trouble- but beyond that, in giving the song your own spin, you are just joining the parade. Not even a Beethoven symphony is sacrosanct- each conductor does it "my way."

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:55 PM

That's a great story, Betsy. Many years ago, I received a phone call from Sally Rogers. She had written an additional verse to a song she learned from a tape of mine, Levi Kelly. She wanted to know where I got the song, and was a little non-plussed when I told her that I had written it. She was afraid that I'd be offended. I told her I had no problem with her singing the additional verse, but would only ask that she would acknowledge that she was the one who wrote it, and that the rest of the song I had written.

Changes happen.

Awright awread... I'ze ony a folk singer... so it shoulda bin "Changing." That' why we have folks like Joe. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Betsy
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:31 PM

I was invited to join-in one of those impromptu songs at the end of a Mini concert,and I got on stage with a lovely singer and guitarist Marie Little , and we proceeded with one or two others who had been performing earlier, to finish the evening with this Chorus-type song. Half-way through the song,she said in a music-hall , jocoular manner " Do you know,-you're singing this song all wrong?" - but she was also fairly serious because the song wasn't going smoothly ,and ( I suppose ) she didn't want to be associated which such an amateurish performance. She went on to get a few laughs, whilst she was feeding off the audience-by talking the p*ss out of me - for getting it wrong.
The problem was she learned the song from someone else and not the person who'd written the bloody song - ME.
Don't worry - we're still great friends after these many years since that happened , so if YOU can't make someone happy , just grin and bear it if you are the subject of some good-natured fun. So Jerry the answer is YES, there are plenty of ways in which songs suddenly become different animals and quite often is doesn't take too long for that change to occur.

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: GLoux
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:18 PM

Some songs that I sing have had their words changed in ways that I like. Titles were changed, too.

One was originally entitled "Roy Dixon" and was recorded in 1930 by Darby and Tarlton. The chorus is:

Would you leave me alone, little darling
Leave me alone in this old Kilby Jail
Would you always remember little darling
That your Roy Dixon longs to be free

Arthur Smith and the Delmore Brothers recorded it as "Little Darling" in 1937. But the words weren't changed.

Arthur Smith and the McGee Brothers were recorded by Mike Seeger in 1957 doing it as "Kilby Jail". This time they changed the last line of the chorus:

Would you leave me alone, little darling
Leave me alone in this old Kilby Jail
Would you always remember little darling
That your heart aches and longs to be free

The Lazy Aces recorded a good version of it in 1986, keeping the change.

I liked the change, so I sing it that way. Actually I sing:

That my heart aches and longs to be free

because I think it makes more sense that way.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:02 PM

Interesting discussion on this subject in Is Lyric Creep a Sin? from back in September of 1999.

This was the first thread I ever posted to.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Changing the words
From: breezy
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 02:48 PM

theres always room for improvement

Subject: RE: Ghanging the words
From: Betsy
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 09:11 AM

No problem - but you you might put some people off expressing a view by your Thread Title - it might infer they made the changes under the influence of foreign substances. !!!!!

thread title typo corrected - joeclone

Subject: Ghanging the words
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 21 Apr 04 - 09:03 AM

I know this subject has been touched on in other threads, but I don't remember seeing a free-standing thread about it.

For most of us who sing, we learn songs frozen in time... frozen on a recording, or on the pages of a book. But, songs don't tend to stay frozen for long. And thawing is as much of a part of the "folk process" as is preservation. There are a lot of reasons why words get changed to songs... some come from a desire to make the song your own, and smooth out an awkward line, some are to remove racially loaded connotations, and some are just old-fashioned laziness. For those of us who love and cherish the tradition, changes are made with at least some level of respect for the original.

For songwriters, it can be difficult to witness the changes someone has made in "your" words. It can also be a pleasure, and the changes may be seen as another way of saying the same thing... not better or worse, just different. (It's the same with melodies and chord progressions, by the way.)

I'll give some examples as this thread goes along of changes I've made in words and why, but I'd like to hear from you..

Wotchasay?

Jerry