Arab lawyer on the Holocaust

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:56 PM

"But nothing can change the fact that he fought on the side of a despicable regime and any victory he brought on their behalf inescapably resulted in an increase in net human misery."

Yeah, robomatic, I already said the very same thing in slightly different words in my own post above, but I guess you didn't notice???

I said: "Any German general who succeeded in occupying new areas of land in a military campaign would necessarily, inevitably bring in his wake the Nazi administration with all its vicious abuses of Jews and other targeted populations. That's a given."

You also said of my statement "The fact that they may be serving an evil administration does not necessarily make them evil people.".........."What's the difference? "

You will find out exactly what the difference is after you yourself have someday been horribly misled and horribly misused by the government of your own country which you trusted and you end up on the losing side in a great and decisive war. Then you will know the difference, and you won't be too pleased if people on the winning side label you as an "evil person" simply for having served your country and having done it effectively.

American Vietnam vets weren't too pleased either when protestors labelled them as "babykillers". Remember? No soldier imagines that he is on "the wrong side" when he willingly marches off to war for his country or his people, and no soldier consciously decides that he is going to enlist and serve so that he can go forth and do "evil" things. Not one of them. They all go forth to do what they think is something good, and what they think will defend their own nation, given their best understanding at the time.

They may later change their minds (as some American soldiers did over their own country's policies in Vietnam). Rommel may have changed his mind by 1944, and he may have been in the plot to assassinate Hitler...or he may have just known of it and hoped it would succeed. We'll never know for sure. The Nazis thought he was in on it, and forced him to choose between (trial and) execution (along with his whole family)... or suicide. He chose suicide, clearly to protect his family.

To write articles now that try to prove that Rommel was "evil" strikes me as a very self-serving and pointless exercise for someone with a big chip on his shoulder. It is endless unforgiveness, endless blame, and endless labelling of certain other people as "evil" that is truly evil. It is that kind of judgement of others that is evil.

That's why I object to it. I have no wish to glorify Nazis. I detest their entire philosophy.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 24 May 07 - 11:53 PM

I think it is probably the same Arab Lawyer but I don't know because I couldn't get the link in the first post to work.

I totally understand the perspective that Jews and Arabs are both victims of the holocaust and hope this message gets through to the right people. If the people of the Middle East could begin to understand this, there might possibly be hope for peace.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if they could join hands to conquer the real enemy?

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 May 07 - 10:39 PM

The original link no longer works, and although I thought I'd made notes, I don't seem able to find any.

Can anyone with a better memory than mine recall whether the original article was about the same Arab Lawyer in This Article?

John

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: bobad
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:33 PM

Glorifying nazis is despicable, IMO.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: robomatic
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:21 PM

LH:

As to Rommel, you are romanticizing the past, confusing the concept of "officer and a gentleman" with the facts of modern war.

Rommel was a capable and inspiring leader to his men, and pound for pound given his materiel and supply limitations one of the great military leaders of the war.

But nothing can change the fact that he fought on the side of a despicable regime and any victory he brought on their behalf inescapably resulted in an increase in net human misery.

I rather think you'd accept both above statements.

As to your statement:

"The fact that they may be serving an evil administration does not necessarily make them evil people."

What's the difference?

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 07 - 08:18 AM

Thanks, John, that's the article.

I disagree, Little Hawk. The "I just did my job" excuse has been used too often after 1945.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:23 PM

Regarding the article about Rommel: Any German general who succeeded in occupying new areas of land in a military campaign would necessarily, inevitably bring in his wake the Nazi administration with all its vicious abuses of Jews and other targeted populations. That's a given. Why should that, however, be a personal judgement on the character of the general himself? Generals in all professional armies try their utmost to win the battles they are fighting. That's their job, regardless of the political situation. It's also their job to see that their country does not lose a war.

The fact that they may be serving an evil administration does not necessarily make them evil people.

Professional soldiers fight. It's what they trained their whole lives to do. Sometimes they have the bad luck to be fighting on behalf of some very nasty politicians and a very twisted cause, but you probably won't hear about that unless you're on the other side...in which case you will hear about it all the livelong day! And your kids will hear about it. And their kids. And their kids.

Good mental programming for future wars.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 23 May 07 - 08:06 PM

Toronto Star article link not available. Would like to see it prior to commenting.

Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: InOBU
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:44 PM

The link expired, wish I got to it sooner. Ah well...
lor

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 23 May 07 - 07:12 PM

Wolfgang - I couldn't make your link work, but extracting a title and Googling gets me to:

New Research Taints Image of Desert Fox Rommel

I hope this is the right one.

John

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 May 07 - 05:31 PM

This is the best thread for the following article without starting a new thread:



"Those fighting Jewry can always rely on the sympathy of the Arab population," the German army general staff wrote in an information booklet to prepare troops for the conquest of Palestine.

The mass murder of the Palestine Jews was already planned at an early date.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 12:56 PM

Back here "ticked off" means the same as "told off". Confusing...
.............................
The basic thing to learn from the charming antics of the French authorities in Algeria is that torture as a technique of war isn't in the long run a reliable way of winning, but does have some pretty terrible longterm consequences. Which their German teachers had already demonstrated pretty effectively.

Except there are always going to be those who are just waiting in hope for the chance to start up the torture game once again.
..................................

One way forward in Palestine/Israel is for both sides to recognise that they are both victims of the Holocaust, working itself out. As the lawyer here, Mahameed, clearly recognises.

In a real sense the people being killed today, and having their lives torn apart, on both sides, are the victims of Hitlerism. And the implication of that is that the people carrying out the activities that cause death and destruction are acting as agents in that.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 11:55 AM

I think Dave's Wife is in the US (although I could be mistaken). Here in the US, "ticked off" means almost the same thing as "pissed off", and/or "annoyed".

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 05 - 07:38 AM

"Ticked off" means "mildly criticise, in my experience. I suspect that Dave's wifed may be using it in some other sense.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 09:24 PM

Freda..many thanks for the info on that book. I shall seek it out. It sounds like a very good book.

I just finished reading THE BATTLE FOR THE CASBAH by General Paul Aussareses which describes the Battle for Algiers.. an earlier 'War on Terorism' from the mid to 1950s to early 60s that we could all learn something from. The guy writing the book is was one who actually carried out orders to commit torture and executions that turn the stomach when you read about them. His book has ticked off everyone on all sides of that historical conflict.

It's another one of those books that ought to be on a summer reading list.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:58 PM

There is an interesting book which tells the history of the Israeli and Palestinian conflict through the eyes of two men - Tried by Fire by Bassam Abu-Sharif and Uzi Mahnaim, also published under the title The Best of Enemies

The web review comments:
Mahnaimi was an Israeli intelligence officer who recruited Arab agents; after his resignation from the Israeli Army in 1984, he became a left-wing journalist. Abu-Sharif helped mastermind terrorist spectaculars. Later, as Yasir Arafat's closest adviser (he has been mentioned as the PLO leader's possible successor), he supplied Mahnaimi with inside information about Arafat's growing willingness to renounce violence and recognize the state of Israel. This daring arrangement grew out of their mutual conviction that an historic compromise between Israelis and Palestinians was imperative. Both men were harshly denounced for their early stand on this thorniest of issues. As they explain in their eloquent double memoir, the 1993 handshake on the White House lawn between Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was the culmination of everything these two unlikely collaborators had been working toward since their first meeting, in 1988. These exceptional men movingly reveal in these pages how they shed ingrained patterns of thought and came to appreciate the viewpoint of the "other side."

This book is interesting because it shows two men, both of whom whose families and lives had suffered enormously, and both with hands dirty from the conflict. They connected with each other and despite everything worked to find a peaceful solution, becoming friends under impossible circumstances on the way.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:14 PM

Ditto what Dave's Wife said. I too read it as in a sense of duty, yet wished the article had been longer.

It is very much overlooked that the Palestinians too have been victims of Hitler, and that mutual healing would probably be a more appropriate option than mutual hatred.

Sadly however, all the good intentions will take generations to accomplish significant change.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:55 PM

A sliver of light shining like a single star in a coal bin at midnight.

The dawning of the day is coming we can all hope.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:34 PM

That's a good article, GUEST, 04 Jun 05 - 10:50 AM. I hope he is able to make a positive difference with his efforts.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:14 PM

Wow - that's quite an article! It's not at all what I expected and I am very glad to have clicked on it.

I was sad that the article wasn't even longer. I would have very much liked to hear this guy out in full. His family's position within Isreal as internally displaced palestinian refuges is not an experience we often hear about. I sure hope nothing violent happens to this guy. He seems to have a genuinely good heart and a desire for peace.

Subject: RE: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM

Yes, this should be in BS.

Good article. Everyone should visit the National Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. This Arab man should be commended. But he is just a sliver of hope amongst a largely brainwashed and undeducated group.

Subject: Arab lawyer on the Holocaust
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 10:50 AM

An Arab lawyer says that if the Palestinians understood the Holocaust, then the whole nature of the conflict with Israel would change.

There's an article about him in today's Toronto Star.

Here's the link to the article.