BS: Fate of the North of Ireland

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 06:13 PM

Or make him cry uncontrollably. Who's taking bets?

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 04:02 PM

It'll harden him....

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tirghra
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 02:35 PM

Ooh-Aah2 is on a vacation from this place! You've scared him away! And ruined all the fun for the rest of us...

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 01 Sep 05 - 10:29 AM

"Loyalist/British"

Love that, Tír Eoghain!
... lest there be any confusion in the future...

I want to say it too, though.... Bit of a fucking eejit aren't you, Ooh-Aah2
... clatters the back of his head with the tips of my fingers...

I bet your pupils just love you...
... the ones in your eyes, I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:02 PM

I'm just happy to find a home for the French Letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tirghra
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 11:01 AM

And one should never assume. I know several Nationalists that are Protestant in fact. And few Catholics that are loyalists. Maybe I should asked them if they are unreasonable prejudiced against little rubbery things and are going to try to boost the loyalist population? If so, maybe I should asked them to swap positions with my Protestant friends while they're still capable of having children in order to help us boost our numbers? (For the cause of course...) That would go over really well, I'm sure.

Tirghra

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 10:54 AM

Ooh-Aah2 also makes the ludicrous assumption that all Nationalists follow the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

Or that all Protestants are Loyalist/British

Bit of a fucking eejit, aren't you, Ooh-Aah2?
... grabs the lobe of his ear and shakes playfully...

Whatever became of Ooh-Aah1?

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 09:35 AM

Ooh-Aah2, if you would have stated in your orginal post:

"I read in an Australian newspaper not long ago that Catholics are increasing in NI much faster than Protestants. I made the not unreasonable assumption that this is because Catholics are less likely to use birth control - it IS the doctrinal position of the Pope after all"

Instead of: "the fact that Catholics have an unreasonable prejudice against little rubbery things will eventually seal the Loyalist's fate"

then I wouldn't have thought you were being nasty.

Tiocfaidh, very much appreciate the point about child mortality.

As it stands, some "sensible modern Catholics" do use birth control to manage family size, whereas other "sensible modern Catholics" have decided to undertake the responsibility of being parents to larger families. Regardless, personal choice is just that. And the ins and outs of religion, especially when dealing with the Catholic Church, is so varied among practioners. Nice that people can find their own niche. - BUT, there's already a thread running on that topic, so I'll leave it there:)

Hope you are all finding this day a pleasant one...:)

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:53 AM

ROFLMAO

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 05:36 AM

Sorry Ooh-Aah2
You mean French letters, I was slow to pick up there. Yes sales are booming in Ireland I'm told. I totally agree with the use of them, we seen enough fatherless children grow up and patrol our streets for many years.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:59 AM

If it was self-inflicted, Ooh-Aah, I might be inclined to agree with you.

Is there any intelligent conversation in there, at all?

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:53 AM

You WANT to pass your time in a continual state of victimhood and bogus indignation, Tick-Tock - that's YOUR problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:46 AM

You also forget that long before your "... fact that Catholics ha(d)ve an unreasonable prejudice against little rubbery things...", Child mortality rates in the island of Ireland, among the poverty-stricken and dis-advantaged (guess who they were?) necessitated the existence of large families.

The one's that had it easier, concentrated more on keeping it that way, than trying to propogate their progeny.

You don't THINK, Ooh-Aah.

That's your problem

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 03:15 AM

You see, it doesn't seem nasty to you, Ooh-Ahh2

That is the mindset we are examining on another thread...

HAAAA-LO-OH

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 31 Aug 05 - 02:44 AM

I read in an Australian newspaper not long ago that Catholics are increasing in NI much faster than Protestants. I made the not unreasonable assumption that this is because Catholics are less likely to use birth control - it IS the doctrinal position of the Pope after all. I am perfectly aware that many sensible modern Catholics DO use birth control because I am married to a Catholic! However it does not seem 'nasty' to me to ascribe the slowly increasing ratio of NI Catholics to Protestants to this factor, and it seems to offer an ultimate peaceful assurance that Ireland will eventually be re-united, whatever political problems are faced there in the meantime.

I guess the clear message to the IRA is 'make love not war!'

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 03:06 PM

Ooh-Aah2, you started your last post off very well and then you hopped right back into the mess again. Is the nasty comment about our prejudice against using little rubbery things because that's the only kind you've had to use? Little?

Admit it, if you weren't pissed off right now, that would have been f-ing hilarious! In reality, do you think that the British government is innocent of killing Irish civilians for political ends?

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:49 AM

Little rubbery things ? last rubbery thing I saw here was fired from a baton round gun

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 11:44 AM

As an Englishman I look forward to NI joining with Ireland. There was never doubt in my mind that the Loyalists are a pack of bigoted thugs and that the Republicans were in the right - as far as I was concerned it was simply a matter of time before the IRA realised that murdering civilians for political ends doesn't work. Now that they have done so I think it's simply a matter of waiting a few generations, at the most, when the fact that Catholics have an unreasonable prejudice against little rubbery things will eventually seal the Loyalist's fate, even if political methods run into problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 09:49 AM

Many of us grew up Epona not knowing what a polling station was as catholics didn't have a vote. When we won it, the government sent many catholics to polling stations in loyalist areas ! So your point is correct.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:17 AM

There's 3 things I like about Ulster:

Donegal, Cavan & Monaghan

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Aug 05 - 04:12 AM

Ireland is partitioned into the Sick Counties of Ulcer, and Error.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 12:29 PM

That we could, Jimmy.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 12:05 PM

Or we could call it the occupied territories ?

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 09:56 AM

I'll refer to it as the Six Counties to make it even easier.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 04:05 AM

We only say 'North of Ireland' to make it easier for you.

It is the North-East, in actual fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Aug 05 - 03:46 AM

The most northerly point of the island of Ireland is in the Republic. Do you by any chance mean "Northern Ireland"?

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 08:42 AM

Can someone clear something up for me? I was under the impression that Catholics and Nationalists often came under threats and pressure to stay away from voting by loyalist paramilitary groups. Is this not correct? Thank-you!

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:38 AM

Nobody's going to force any solution on anybody, Guest (except, perhaps to try and get the Unionists to get their finger out over issues covered elsewhere on these boards...)

Osmosis or plebiscite...

Soon enough, as well

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 02:34 AM

Surely the whole point about democracy is to ask the people of Northern Ireland what they want, rather than have people from Eire declaring what they would like the Northern Irish to have?

I recall they did that, by way of plebiscite, in the 1970s. I recall the vote was about 76% in favour of remaining as part of the UK. These are British people so the UK Government has a duty to listen to what they want and to continue to provide it.

It would have been very easy for the UK Government to capitulate to the bombers way back then, but surely no nation should ever want to turn its back on its own people in the face of a declared desire to remain part of the UK.

Maybe they need another plebiscite.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Jimmy C
Date: 28 Aug 05 - 12:55 AM

The country should and will be united some day. If democracy has any meaning at all then the loyalists can do nothing to stop the growth of nationalism although they will do their dirty best in their attempts to hang on to their twiated bigoted system for as long as possible, hoping against hope that things will be reversed. We are seeing it already, barely weeks after the RA's declaration we have catholics homes being targeted, catholic teenagers being stabbed to death coming home from a candy store, anything that will make the I.R.A. come out onto the streets to protect the catholic population, Anything that will give the unionist politicians the opportunity to claim that the I.R.A. broke it's word. It is a time for determination from the nationalists population to stay focused and committed to political means, it is a time for catholics to be vigilant and not be drawn into full scale rioting. It is a time for unionist politicians to take stock of their position and welcome this opportunity to start building a future for all citizens of the 6 counties, unfortunately they have yet to do so, even in a small manner.

The unionists are on their way out, it may take some time but their days are numbered. It would be preferable if they stayed in Ireland as Irish protestants, and helped shape the future and participate in the new Ireland because many of them have lots to offer, but if they all pack up and move to England - Canada - Australia or wherever before they would live in a united Irish republic, dedicated to the promises of the 1916 proclamation then I say go and don't come back. I for one will not miss them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 06:12 PM

...the place would be swarming with Glasgow Rangers supporters, and red-nosed Glenfiddich drinkers.

Isn't it already? (And Dublin's awash with drunken English stag nights and Arsenal supporters...)

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Aug 05 - 04:15 PM

Felt so strongly about it, it had to be posted three times! :) Gotta love computer gliches...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 01:48 PM

Now now Bunnahabhain we can't go back to the lads in Boston and our buddies in New York and ask for more, look that they gave us over thirty years, great guys but we can't be greedy.As for being run from Brussels, I have no problem with that. I can't see them sending over soldiers to take my front teeth out with the butt of a rifle or drag me out of bed at 5.00 in the morning for nothing, as the last ones did.Yes we would like self government, but in the mean time a bit of Brussels could be the answer all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 01:48 PM

Now now Bunnahabhain we can't go back to the lads in Boston and our buddies in New York and ask for more, look that they gave us over thirty years, great guys but we can't be greedy.As for being run from Brussels, I have no problem with that. I can't see them sending over soldiers to take my front teeth out with the butt of a rifle or drag me out of bed at 5.00 in the morning for nothing, as the last ones did.Yes we would like self government, but in the mean time a bit of Brussels could be the answer all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 01:48 PM

Now now Bunnahabhain we can't go back to the lads in Boston and our buddies in New York and ask for more, look that they gave us over thirty years, great guys but we can't be greedy.As for being run from Brussels, I have no problem with that. I can't see them sending over soldiers to take my front teeth out with the butt of a rifle or drag me out of bed at 5.00 in the morning for nothing, as the last ones did.Yes we would like self government, but in the mean time a bit of Brussels could be the answer all right.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:37 AM

Hahaha! Amen, Tir Eoghain.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 09:10 AM

"It can't be any worse than a province effectively run by thugs with guns, selling drugs and occasionally referring to events generations or centuries ago, to keep the home crowd happy"

I know, Bunnabháin. The Loyalists just wont call an end to it, will they?

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 08:42 AM

Those who ignore history are condemned to repeat it. Those who live in the past are already repeating it, ad nauseum.

Things will change when Britain joins Europe in earnest, and the euro and cross border bodies are a reality.

That looks like happening so soon. The Euro and cross border bodies are real right now, but the more people see of them, both in the UK and such anti-european places as France and Germany, the less they like them.

You want to join in the heart of an ever closer union run by Brussels? Fine. It can't be any worse than a province effectively run by thugs with guns, selling drugs and occasionally referring to events generations or centuries ago, to keep the home crowd happy.

Can't the 'old country bars' in Boston and New York raise enough to buy the place outright? Towing it across the Atlantic would be good as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:33 AM

Dave,
Apologies if I confused you. I didn't mean "fighting" as with physical force but through our political system for equality, as Tir Eoghain stated. As I'm sure we can all agree, fighting takes place on many levels, not just in the streets.


Thank you, Tiocfaidh.

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: ard mhacha
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 07:01 AM

Fair play to you Epona, this place is an absolute joke from the IRAs ceasefire, the various Loyalists factions while they are not killing each other in drug and racketeering turf wars, are still finding time to murder Catholics, paint bomb Catholic Churches, petrol bomb Catholic homes,and our police force stands by and spectates.

Was it ever any different, live among them for a time and tell me we are all the same, we don`t come close, these Loyal sons of William are the champions of bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 06:43 AM

Things will change when Britain joins Europe in earnest, and the euro and cross border bodies are a reality.The unionists bark and snarl, but they have done this over the RUC AND UDR for example and seen it got them nowhere, they will accept it in time.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:56 AM

... next thing you'd know is that the place would be swarming with Glasgow Rangers supporters, and red-nosed Glenfiddich drinkers.

It's all very well for Harlow residents to muse creative on matters like this, but would you take the chance of not jumping from the frying pan, into the bonfire.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:43 AM

The best we can hope for is that the 'Unionist' population catch themselves on and realise that there's strength in numbers.

Bigger numbers.

SCOTLAND?

Are you joking, or wha?

What about Wales?

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:40 AM

Still fighting for equality, Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:32 AM

Others may have fought for the freedom of the Republic of Ireland years ago, but our brothers in the North are still fighting for that same freedom

Have you missed the news? IRA ends armed campaign

Why talk about fighting when everyone else agrees that politcal means are the way forward?

Anyway. In answer to the question. Yes, the 6 counties should have been included in the independance granted. But they were not. The British government cocked it up then and has continued to cock it up ever since. To completely wash their hands of it would only add to the comedy of errors that has created the situation.

So what should they do?

There is probably no solution which would suit everyone. I think the best we can hope for is a compromise which suits most people. I believe that an independant state would probably be best all round but that is just my opinion.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Paul Burke
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 04:23 AM

Agree with McGoH, though why the Scots would want to take on the burden I'm not sure. Perhaps some big EC development grants would sweeten the pill.

Also, Eire would lose out on the cross- border project grants, like the one that restored the Ballinamore and Ballyconnel canal, that had been out of use for about 130 years.

And a whole bunch of private fiefdoms would be upset.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 26 Aug 05 - 02:43 AM

I saw a quote from the Irish Times once: 'The Referendum went exactly the way most people hoped it would'

The upwardly mobile middle-class.... in this upwardly mobile society are not looking to the tight-mouthed old men for direction.
Nor are they looking for their restrictions.

The North of Ireland is small enough in electoral terms to have 3000 voters make an enormous difference to the political makeup of the place.

The recent waxing of the DUP's moon will be short lived, as people embrace the 'freedoms' brought about by the GFA and the 'RA's Statement of Cessation.
'Unionists' are streaming Southward to Dublin, to wait in the Passport Office for 8 hours to get what they have always been entitled to.

Just think of Ireland as a Housing Estate, less than half the size of London, and you begin to get the picture.

Tiocfaidh ar lá

Fáilte go Mudcat a hEpona

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 07:58 PM

I'd have thought separate region status within the European Union, and some kind of federal link with the rest of the island of Ireland, would seem pretty inevitable.

I've sometimes thought that there'd be a lot to say for a federal republic made up of Scotland, and both parts of Ireland, inside the European Union.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 07:25 PM

I hope that the decision reached with regard to NI's future, is one that takes fully into account the wishes of everyone living there. I also hope that everyone living there feels safer and more content in the future. I hope the hostility amongst the Northern Iriah to one another dies out.

How will this be achieved? I think the only opinion that really matters, and is based on learned experience,is the opinion of those who have lived the breathed it first hand.

I do not feel qualified to offer a possible solution.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 07:10 PM

It is sad in some areas, you are right GUEST, and joyous in others. History, it is said, holds the keys to the future. What I would like to know is the feeling everyone has for the future of the 6 counties based on present events and the trends of history. What are your feelings, GUEST?

E

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 06:39 PM

How does it help the future raking over a sad sad past over and over again?

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 06:24 PM

Oh God, they're at it again, and only four posts in.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,maire-aine
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 05:24 PM

Pardon me, Kimchee, but I don't understand where you were going with that post.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 04:45 PM

KIMCHEE,

People are already being hurt, intimidated, spat upon, called names. Try also killed, maimed, tortured, burnt out of their homes, beaten by the police. Are there anymore I've missed? Others may have fought for the freedom of the Republic of Ireland years ago, but our brothers in the North are still fighting for that same freedom that was denied them when the 6 counties were carved from the rest. Ireland should be whole and it will be.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: KIMCHEE
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 03:03 PM

Epona, Guest,maire-aine - pm, as a colleague has stated, "the desire to see our Island re united. The invader who stole it and raped it maybe has the answer to this one." My point we always want the best, but perhaps the best is the correct or social answer. I would like to see our island as one, but in the process, people could be hurt, intimated, spat upon or perhaps be called various degrading names for what truths they believe in. Why cannot all of us be treated with love, respect, honour,and kindness - is that so difficult to do. Most would respond YES - whereas others would say "DUH." Wake up give us your respect, your attention, your kindness and your love. Others fought for the freedom and won so why are we any different than the others.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:57 PM

Maryanne -
I'll search again and see if I can find the poll. It was pretty evenly split with 56% percent saying it would and should remain part of the UK, 46% saying it should be part of Rep. of Ireland, and the rest saying it should break off (literally) and sink into the ocean.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: The Curator
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:53 PM

Within our hearts all Republicans hold the desire to see our Island re united. The invader who stole it and raped it maybe has the answer to this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,maire-aine
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:48 PM

Can you give us a link to that poll-- I'm curious. I think, eventually, the 6 counties will roll into the Republic of Ireland. I used to think it would happen in my lifetime, but now I'm not so sure. It would be nice to have it unified by 2016, but it will probably need another generation or two.

Maryanne

Subject: RE: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: GUEST,Soldier Boy.
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 02:47 PM

Most of my English friends say please take it, we should have done so in 1922, if only our foolish politicians could have possessed the gift of hindsight, or is it horsesense. Soldier Boy

Subject: BS: Fate of the North of Ireland
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 25 Aug 05 - 01:53 PM

I was scanning some websites today and came across one that was running a poll on the future of the 6 counties in the North of Ireland. This made me curious about the opinions of the mudcatters on this subject. So, what do you think the future for the North of Ireland is (remain as part of the U.K., become part of the Republic of Ireland, etc)?