BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:19 AM

By the way Musket, you "somehow" amazingly suggest that, in my recent posts, that I am defending faith-"wrong".

My related posts (if you were paying attention at tbat point in Pete and Bills main discussion, on this thread refer to the logic of using quotes (where the context is uncertain) of a science personality to score any point, in a field (religion ir not) where the scientist has no clearly stated scientific expertise. If the discussion related to his or her scientific research or science expertise, that is fine. If it is not, then it clearly an opinion-and unless shown otherwise, why it shoud be considered a better opinion than others?

My case was not made to defend and prop up religion nor shoot it down, but relates to the logic of using opinion quotes of personalities-whether scientific, entertainement, sports or political, to score points for any position in a debate on a topic.

My other point in the discussion related to giving those attempting to actually debate the OP topic, Bill D and Pete 7* the opportunity to do so, without disrespectful comments from the side. IMO, those comments, mostly attacking Pete, using mistly repetitive and disrespectful phrases, serve only the interests of thise who wish tk silence the discussion and scare Pete away from participating. If you were paying attention, Bilk D requested this in frustration awhile back. There is another thread on religion with ample opportunity to fling shit. My recollection is, Bilk D set this one up to avoid that disruptive aspect/influence.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:09 AM

That red headed girl? Why should I pull her pigtails when she offers to pull my plonker behind the bike sheds? Her name was (hopefully still is) Nicky. She did have pigtails, was a redhead and I lost my cherry to her. The force is strong in you, young Skydreamer.

You'll have to help me out here. What's a grade school?

In reply to your withering subsequent post. pete is the one being dismissive, disrespectful and insulting. I, as ever, respond merely in kind.

You speak of religious opinion as if it has any relevance in this thread, and put forward the idea that all opinions are equal. Not when they dismiss reality in a desperate attempt to make fairy stories look real, they aren't.   I love Tolkien's fairy stories myself but I don't try altering geography to fit Middle Earth into the equation....

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:38 AM

". pete is the one being dismissive, disrespectful and insulting. I, as ever, respond merely in kind."

Your concept of 'insulting' is as broad a brush as I've ever seen. Pete is merely frustrating... he doesn't stoop to the name calling and ridicule that you seem to relish whenever someone doesn't reach the level of reason YOU demand.

I accuse Pete of overusing/misusing certain terms... you match him and then some.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:40 AM

There is worm tonic for the wiggles, Musket.

Because unlike you and pete, I have not made my mind up on many things, and am open to give the opportunity to reasoned logic from anyone.Even if I find their position
lacking in logic, I appriciate that others may not.

I do draw the line in intervening when folks are unkind, or promote hate to individuals or groups, a topic which I suspect we share some solid ground on.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:04 AM

and am open to give the opportunity to reasoned logic from anyone.

That, then, leaves pete out.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 11:20 AM

I don't demand anything. I certainly haven't made my mind up on anything. Believing make believe and having an imaginary friend has never been something I considered in the first place.

Demanding a level of logic is one thing, but when people introduce absurd notions outside the bounds of physics and want them to be respected, I find "fuck off" to be appropriate in response.

In humouring him and trying to be logical to an absence of logic, I think it could be said that the Bills of this world are the ones taking the piss out pete, not those of us who have no time for creationist nonsense and the harm their influence is having on our children.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:34 PM

""I think it could be said that the Bills of this world are the ones taking the piss out pete, not those of us who have no time for creationist nonsense and the harm their influence is having on our children.""

Indeed so, that is exactly why I suggested others back off with thedisrupting insults to Pete, and let Bill D have this discussion with Pete, which I recall he requested a few times, and I suspect has not completed. Contrary to what you say, some folks here seems to be plenty of time for that, versus giving Bill some room for his OP discussion.

On the face of it, it seems to be lacking in logic that pete holding a belief hurts anyone ellse. Do you have evidence Musket, that pete is promoting his belief on creation in schools, to children. If so, you should present it, and I suspect that would matter to other folks here.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 12:37 PM

""and am open to give the opportunity to reasoned logic from anyone.

That, then, leaves pete out.""

OK, I also have time to allow people to state their case, to clearly expose the lack of logic in their case.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:01 PM

Yes Ed. It's called Mudcat. In particularly the thread regarding YEC.

That is where he went from a harmless fruitcake to a worrying trend. Harmless fruitcakes are needed in order to keep the rest of us sane. I have mentioned my mate who thinks the moon landings didn't happen. I have friends and family who genuinely think there is a god and has the thoughts and deeds of what the bible says of him. I even remain civil to a neighbour who has a season ticket for Sheffield United.

But you know what? None of them feel their take on life needs promoting and spreading.

Perhaps that's why I don't tell them to fuck off. Although a vicar friend who said that believing in god isn't actually a prerequisite for the job got both barrels when he went on to say the job is merely to ensure others do.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:04 PM

pete holding a belief hurts anyone ellse

Ed, if pete was the only idiot holding & promulgating these absurd beliefs you'd be right. Unfortunately, there are hundreds of thousands (possibly millions?) JUST LIKE HIM in the U.S. doing real harm collectively as well as individually. I'm assuming you're in Blighty?


OK, I also have time to allow people to state their case...

Hey, if you like listening to idiots and psychotics babble, knock yourself out. Most folks have better things to do, but what the hey, that's what makes horse races.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 01:33 PM

I'm afraid that, for me, the gloves have come off with pete. He is not only deluded and lacking in logic (not to mention illiterate) but he's also arrogant and disrespectful. For a start, he thinks he's in possession of absolute truth and, leaving aside anything else, that's a pretty arrogant position to take - about as arrogant as you can get!

Further up the thread I asked him a simple question; for the record:

"Why should I believe the account of 'creation' that is written in the Bible rather than the reality revealed by modern science?"

He has consistently avoided answering this question and instead demanded to know about my scientific qualifications. When I supplied him with these he belittled them and suggested that they did not qualify me to distinguish sense from nonsense. And this from a man who has no scientific background whatsoever and, by his own admission, has never read a standard, or even popular, text on evolutionary biology and who thinks that regurgitating rubbish that he has read on fringe creationist websites makes him some sort of expert on a par with the likes of Stu who has genuine, real world qualifications in evolutionary biology. We really should not be wasting our time debating anything with this fool!

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 02:36 PM

Well, I never followed pete before this thread (just mostly saw a couple of his posts)!-it looks like some folks seem to be shell shocked on religion evolution discussion. If so, it ouzzles me why they would even consider entering this thread and and even staying here?

While there may be masses of creationist folks, engaging in nasty things somewhere, Bill seems eager to engage in a "meaningful" debate with Pete-I see no reason, nor harm, or reasons to put barriers up to such a wish? Mudcat is hardly a spot where mass numbers of creationists gather to plan sinister creationist plots. It seems like it is mustly Pete, treading water against a big current of opinion-I have yet to encounter others, though I have not checked in every corner, nor under the Mudcat dirty laundry basket.

With all the negative forces facing young children in many locations, I would put Pete and his beliefs very low on the "danger in growing up in school" reichter scale.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:30 PM

Bill seems eager to engage in a "meaningful" debate with Pete

Unfortunately, that's not possible - for Bill or anyone else, as even a small exposure to pete should make abundantly clear.

Mudcat is hardly a spot where mass numbers of creationists gather to plan sinister creationist plots......I would put Pete and his beliefs very low on the "danger in growing up in school" reichter scale.

Ed, You put things a lot more flippantly than you would if you were personally acquainted with the very real harm creationist fundegelical assholes do. If you're in Britain this is to some extent understandable, but you should look a little more closely into the situation in the U.S. before dismissing the problem.

If you're in the U.S., you're just not paying attention and there's NO excuse for that.

(And that's Richter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Musket
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 05:43 PM

Dunno about The UK. Religious bigots have successfully lobbied for equality legislation to not include their organisations. In fact, it was made illegal for Church of England churches to conduct gay weddings in order to throw legal challenges to their obscene bigotry.

We still have a state religion. A theocracy we share with Iran. The Queen is head of the church. Yet less than 1% of the country attend their churches. When Prince Charles said he would alter the role of monarch when he ascends in order to be defender of faith rather than defender of the faith, which puts the monarch against 99% of the people, the church bigotry brigade used money they raise "for the poor" to get a legal opinion on whether he can or not.

Whoa betide you if you are Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, Hindu or rational, if the bigoted Christian cult under The Archbishop of Canterbury get their way. They want to see us as constitutionally second class citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 06:36 PM

Greg,
I live in neither location-where there is little exposure to non-evolution theories-so, it is not an issue. I have no notion as to who believes what in my neighbourhood, and I suspect my neighbours feel the same-regardless, it never seems to get in ones way or face.I almost never hear the religion topic being raised in the workplace, at functions, or, in fact, elsewhere.

In China and India, a huge percent of the worlds people have some wacky ideas (in my opinon) that go against scientific reasoning. I could stay awake and fret about it-with little actual impact. I dont know about you, but, pete believing odd things about the age of the world wont keep me from sleeping-and I doubt that it would change things much if I did. Personally, as one who is not attached to any religion, I cant fathom how the issue of religion stirs up so much emotion with individuals on either side. But, I guess it has followed this pattern for a long time in history, and will be with us for a long time-and likely be so to the end.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 07:00 PM

I live in neither location-where there is little exposure to non-evolution theories-so, it is not an issue.

Gotcha, Ed - it don't effect you personally, so it's nothing worth worrying about. The rest of the people in the country?-screw 'em. Not your problem. The spirit that has brought the U.S. to the current deplorable state its in.

Check This out.

Or possibly This

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 07:38 PM

You seem kinda uppidy and" flippent" yourself in the last post Greg- Having a bad day, possibly?

In fact, I never heard creationism as being an issue amongst my fellow countrymen in the country where I live-I suspect because most if us are tolerant of the views of others, and mistly do not get into their personal affairs. Most people attend public schools, free of religion. We dont have a connection between state and church, our constitutional provides for religious freedom.

So, put that in your pipe and inhale, matey, before you sling insults at people of other nations, where it seems that you have little direct knowledge.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:24 PM

So Ostrich Ed - Stop beating 'round the bush: who are your "fellow countrymen" and in what country DO you live?

And which constitutional are you talking about? Post-prandial or otherwise?

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:27 PM

*sigh* Is it even possible to have a discussion of evolution and the relevant aspects of religion without it drifting into a general condemnation of religion?

I KNOW that there are religious extremists in various countries who tax the soul patience and cause thinking people to worry about their influence. I have met some of them.... several have knocked at my door. They send me mailings. They are tedious.

YOU can start a thread about it.   That is not what I want to do here....

I thing we need a thread about people who have knee-jerk responses to anything resembling their favorite pet peeve, whether it was specified or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:38 PM

I think you are onto something Bill D, Unfortunately, like with wars, bringing up the topic of religion most often uncovers the worst on both sides,with representatives of each frequently claiming the hallowed ground - and illogical attacks anyone calling for logical thinking in the middle.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 08:47 PM

Sorry Greg, you can do your own homework, if you have the interest and capacity to do so-and I assume you have the capacity, if you have the staying power. However, I never rule out that some folks just prefer to "blow smoke" versus using their noggin.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:08 PM

Still no answer to my question, "How could there be nothing instead of something?"

Makes as much sense as the more popular version. How do we know that "nothingness" is the default setting and "somethingness" the exception?
Even Stephen Hawking seems to make this baseless assumption.

Bill's quest for a reasonable discussion is doomed to failure when the thread's chief, perhaps sole, disbeliever in evolution won't even respond to the simple question of why his view is preferable and his understanding of science and belief is more profound than anyone else's.

When one advances a position on anything, one generally says why it should be accepted. Otherwise it can be ignored, because there's no basis for discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:25 PM

"My own homework" Ostrich Ed? Please. What's the big secret of your nationality? You're not a spook are ya? Just answer the question.

And the discussion isn't about "religion". Its about idiots who wilfully reject fact in favor of bullshit, and those that condone and enable their so doing.

Apparently, you're one of the latter- and yet you prate on about "logic" and "blowing smoke".

Fascinating.


evolution and the relevant aspects of religion

Uh, Bill - there ARE no "relevant aspects of religion".

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:34 PM

Good luck finding someone to argue with greg, versus meaningful discussion, since this seems to be your main preoccupation-based in my snapshot observation, of course. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 09:38 PM

Lighter asks: Still no answer to my question, "How could there be nothing instead of something?"

Look in my bank account...

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:00 PM

Nothing, a turd with the crap taken out of it:)

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:17 PM

""Ere Time and Place were, Time and Place were not,
When primitive Nothing Something straight begot;
Then all proceeded from the great united What.""

Earl of Rochester: "Upon Nothing"

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Sep 14 - 10:41 PM

The generally accepted specific formulation of the "Something Rather Than Nothing" issue in philosophic studies came from Martin Heidegger, but has been so widely used.. even to book titles, that it is almost a universal topic now.

A.N. Whitehead said early in "Process & Reality"... "everything must be somewhere" and went on to assume (in a MOST convoluted way) that 'something' must have always been... ummm.. here.

Too bad those guys didn't have Greg F. to clarify it all and save them all that thinking. (there sure are relevant aspects of religion when the Texas school board meets.)

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:12 AM

But even Joe assumes that there *should be* something in his bank account.

The nothingness he finds is the aberration. The bank wouldn't have granted him an account on a deposit of nothingness.

Any mere assertion of what came first cosmically, however, is just an opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Stu
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:47 AM

"On the face of it, it seems to be lacking in logic that pete holding a belief hurts anyone ellse."

Pete does come here to engage in debate and it's not the fault of UK catters if the Americans don't have or understand our debating culture. That said, phrases Like " the gloves have come off with pete." don't sound too nice at all and I don't like that. He does bullshit though. Lots.

I've had plenty to say to pete, and he's given as good as he's got even if it's gone over the heads of his advocates. He's a teacher at the very least (from a buddhist perspective), but he isn't interested in debating the core issues. But then who is?

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Lighter
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 08:17 AM

> he isn't interested in debating the core issues. But then who is?

Looks like Bill, Shimrod, Joe, and me, for starters.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 08:52 AM

Good luck finding someone to argue with greg

Atta boy Ed! When the questions become too difficult, or you find yourself on the losing end, take your ball & go home.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Musket
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:13 AM

Do " teachers at least" cut and paste their arguments from creationist websites, then get all flustered when asked to justify their sneering contempt for the real world though?

Thought not.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:18 AM

Greg,
When you post in a disrespectful manner, you normally win at your own circular arguments, versus meaningful debate- as you remain alone.

From what I have seen of youer aporoach here, (I havent seen much of your posts before) I suspect you feel like such a winner quite often. Good luck with that, and your attempts to lure others into such a pointless solitude.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 09:26 AM

Look arouund atbothers, even on thisvthread greg, maybe you will, by chance, learn something on how to discuss versus argue. While I suspect you have no interest or capacity for that, surprises do occur.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Musket
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 04:49 PM

Proof read your posts, there's a good lad.

It's difficult to see whether you are lazy or no concept of spelling or grammar. Such things help decide whether to debate or dismiss you as simple, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 05:12 PM

A deal Musket. I will proof read my posts if you agree to proof-wash some of your posting "pottie" language.

It oft colours your debating style to a whores breakfast. Kinda makes one wonder if your oft-braged phd is in pottie language.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Musket
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 05:38 PM

Fuck shit arsehole Sheffield Utd.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 06:09 PM

I suspect Musket has the stickiest keyboard on Mudcat.

No, don't jump to conclusions- you have it all wrong. It's not from self abuse. It's from the keyboard-humping enjoyment I suspect he gets from a bit of internet attention that cums his way throughout the day-good or bad. Like kids who get excited when they hear the word "poopie".

Get down, Rover ! Down boy.

:)

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 07:56 PM

Hi. I'm back, I was away, there was a wedding, it was great, there was no religion in it. Anyway.

EdT, back to your question about Do I think all Americans are biodeniers and ignoramuses (ignorami), no, but I am beginning to notice that all biodeniers and ignorami that are actually high school and sometimes even college graduates, rather than uneducated (say, girls in places where girls aren't allowed to *be* educated) are Americans.

My twins went through public schools here and could have never learned anything and still passed every single grade.

The only reason they know basic science is not they were smart, minimally motivated, but that I jumped in and taught them reality where their school failed (like AP history explaining judaism and islam as beliefs but then claiming christianity as documented history, citing the bible as the documentation, I kid you not) because I went to French schools where you can be assumed to be christian but you certainly still learn biology in science classes, as did the moslems, atheists and animists. Religion was irrelevant although discussed in philosophy class.

I also teach here in the US at the college level and the ignorance of my public-educated student body is appalling. Absolutely bloddy appalling.

*That* is the danger of "respecting" willful ignorance. It is not a danger of faith itself, just the idea that beliefs should be treated as equal to facts. What nonsense. Time to stop it. Seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 08:02 PM

You got MY vote, Mrrzy

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Ed T
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 08:20 PM

I haven't seen locally what you have stated, Mrzzy. But, then I am not realy "in tune" with the USA educational system. Is religious education actually offered in all USA public schools-if I understand you correctly, (I suspected it would be so in private religious schools), or is it limited to specific areas? This seems very odd to me?

I suspect a failure to focus more on science related preparation in the school system is, from what I read, broad in many western countries. This may explain why some Asian countries have leaped ahead (or, caught up) of western nations in many fields of science- in recent years.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Amos
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 10:28 PM

Actually, I think it is possible that the "something" and "nothing" stress might well be at the root of religious impulses.

You won't find the entity known as the spirit within the framework of time and space, so if you are convinced that existence is identical with matter, energy and space-time, then you're bound to conclude that such things as the human spirit are non-existent.

Should you be among the minority who admit existences byond the material universe, then you may find the spirit is actually "something" (meaning an existent thing) even though it is not a matter-and-energy "thing".

Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer cherce.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 10:43 PM

It wasn't billed as "religious" education, it was supposed to be an Advanced Placement (that is, a college-level class being offered to high schoolers who'd finished the high school levels) history class that had a textbook stating, not implying or mealymouthing around, that the bible stories about jesus were historical, and citing passages as fact, while islam and judaism were not treated as historically factual but as global phenomena which people studying history should know about.

Also, this is the free and obligatory education being offered all children in my city, I didn't pay my money and I shouldn't have had to correct this kind of crap in their textbook.

I remain absolutely bloody appalled, even if I don't proofread well.

Bill, if I ran / stood for office, I'd be run out of town on a rail, tarred and feathered. I live in Virginia.

Not to be mistaken with its neighbor, West By God Virginia.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Sep 14 - 11:04 PM

Mrrzy.. I have friends in Virginia, including the southern part. I have met some of the people near my friends who'd heat the tar for you. I lived in Kansas till I was 37. I had good friends who were sane and non-religious. We often felt outnumbered.... and that was in a larger city.
   It was perfectly possible to go for months & years without a confrontation, but one learns to know when not to speak one's mind in public. Most of the schools avoided direct religious pressure, but one could sense it and hear remarks.
When I was a graduate teaching fellow in Philosophy, we had to grade shortish papers on an assigned topic. We made a mistake the first time and thought we'd make the topic 'interesting' and assigned "The Existence of God". We explained several times that this was not about accepting or denying God... but about understanding the philosophic arguments for each side. We might as well have explained in Sanskrit. (Well, maybe a dozen or three out of 300-400 got it... their religious background made the majority slip into expressing their faith..often to the exclusion of understand the basic assignment.)
   It was a learning experience for ME!

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 02:19 AM

"Should you be among the minority who admit existences byond the material universe, then you may find the spirit is actually "something" (meaning an existent thing) even though it is not a matter-and-energy "thing"."

It seems to me that there are far too many people in the world who don't know the difference between a notion and a fact. It's all very well to posit "something" beyond "matter-and-energy" but unless evidence is available to support such a concept, it remains a mere notion. Is it possible to find evidence for "something" beyond "matter-and-energy"? Well that is not my problem - but the problem of the holder of the notion! Trouble is there are far too many holders of such notions who would impose them on others - including children.

The other day a couple of 'fundagelicals' knocked on my door and asked me if I believed in God and if I believed that God created everything. I replied that I had seen no evidence to support such notions. One of the fundagelicals then touched my doorframe and said, "well someone created this house so someone must have created the universe." I replied, "I'm sorry but that's just an hypothesis based on an analogy; have you got any evidence to support your hypothesis?" They left rather smartly!

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Musket
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 03:15 AM

They leave rather smartly when you shout "Fuck off!" loudly and slam the door too...

The problem is Shimrod, your approach may have wit that is wasted whereas my approach may be understood.

What is clear here is that superstition has to be taught whereas logical reasoning can be deduced.

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 03:49 AM

One thing I've spent a lot of my life exploring, is how to carry on respectful and friendly dialogue with people who are never, ever going to agree with my point of view. Usually, this requires finding the common ground between us, and discussing what we have in common while politely skirting what divides us.

But I would really like to talk about the "elephant in the room" - whatever it is that we profoundly disagree about. I find it can sometimes be possible once we have built a relationship over a period of time, but oftentimes it seems to end up destroying the relationship.

It's even harder here on the Internet. There's something about the Internet that brings out division. I wonder how to get past that.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 05:32 AM

Yes, Musket, that's the approach that I have finally had to take with, pete. I believe that he insulted me by (a) refusing consistently to answer a simple, but fundamental question and (b) belittling my scientific qualifications and insisting that they invalidated any views that I might hold about evolution (and this from a man who has no scientific qualifications himself!). I'm a gentle soul at heart - but can only be pushed so far.

And, yes Joe, I believe in dialogue too - but when idiots attempt to take the piss, I won't stand for it!

Subject: RE: BS: Special thread on Evolution & religion
From: Lighter
Date: 08 Sep 14 - 08:44 AM

I once attended a private boys' school that was connected with the YMCA (that's "Young Men's *Christian* Association," just to remind you.)

We had one course - one semester - when I was twelve, called "Comparative Religion." It stressed the sincerity of all major religions (including Hinduism, Shinto and Jainism, BTW) and the attempts of their believers to achieve peace and benefit others.

No sectarian propaganda, no insistence that one was "realer" than another.

But that was half a century ago. I dunno what might be goin' on now.

(By today's educational standards it was pretty demanding: lots of info, no "activities.")