BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:04 AM

I think a big industrial society would have developed anyway in North America, but it would have done so more gradually under British rule...as there would not have been nearly such a driving, competitive motivation to compete with Britain as arose with the emergence of the 13 colonies achieving independence.

How all that would have affected the various European wars is pretty hard to say.

England would, in any case, have benefited tremendously from having all the resources of North America at its disposal, so the British Empire would have been in an even stronger position historically vis a vis other European powers than it was during the 1800's and right through to the present era. England was really the world's one superpower for a time there...from the defeat of Napoleon until the onset of the First World War. WWI critically strained British financial resources and their empire began to subtly weaken from that point on...although that was not really apparent to people in an external sense until the post-WWII era unfolded after 1945...at which point the USA began to emerge as the next one world superpower. The Soviets tried to compete on an even basis with the USA, but actually they couldn't. It took about another 40 years for that to become clear.

China will probably emerge as the next one world superpower. We'll see...if we all live long enough.

One thing for sure. Nobody stays on top forever. But they all think it will be forever while they are there. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 07:23 AM

Ah yes indeed... the 1000 year Reich, the Roman Empire, the Peacock Thrones.... the way of all flesh....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:15 AM

Happy Tuesday to all our colonies :0)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:18 AM

If the revolution had never happened, or gone the other way, there would not have been the Lousiana purchase. The British Empire would never buy something from the French, not if they could just take it.

The Royal navy would have a fairly good blockade up, so there would be minimal support available from France. The french speaking colonies would have had had no chance. See Canada and Qubec as an example...


Who knows where the border might have ended up? If the British Empire had been running the Southern border, a process similar to that in Inda might have happened. Support one side in one of their petty arguments, be invited in as traders, or millitary advisers, and quite soon, the Generallisimo of that little state finds the British are running it, and have to secure the border with the next one to stop the bandits. Repeat!

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:19 AM

The Roman empire didn't do too badly, perhaps not a thousand year magisterium in the West, but 27BC to 476AD is better than the Dritter Reich by a factor of 4000%, or 32dB. And of course it continued in the east to 1453AD- almost one-and-a-half Thousand Year Reichs. Not that it was contributing much for the last 700 years or so.

I think a lot of people are missing an important point with What If history. That is that if any given event A hadn't happened, a whole string of events would have been different. So it's not just no USA to help us out in world wars- the world wars probably would have happened quite differently if at all. Britain could have been the grumbling bitter fascists after defeat by Portugal (so it might have been all the same anyway).

What if Catherine of Aragon had had a son? What if Harold had pushed William into the sea? What if the whole branch had dropped on Isaac Newton's head instead of just one apple? What if Johnny Appleseed had planted marijuana instead of apples?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:47 AM

I wrote the title as listed because I didn't have enough letters to say What If America Lost The Revolutionary War. I kept trimming it down until it fit. I started the thread in a light-hearted way, but I also appreciate the more serious side of the question. Looking more seriously, I try to see the reasons for celebrating the 4th of July here (and I see many) along with the daily self-flagelation that so many Americans engage in. Embarassment and shame for our governement's invasion of Iraq, treatment of prisoners, abuse of the environment and the economic injustice that has gotten worse during the Bush administration overshadows the appreciation of what is great about this country. I'm not talking "Great" in super-power terms, or technology. I'm talking about the spirit of most of the people I cross paths with... friends and strangers.

There was a very recent poll about how the English see America, and it is heavily tilted toward the Hollywood and media portrayal of this country. You'd think everyone was dealing drugs or being consumed with greed. I don't believe our current government reflects the heart of the American people, and I am encouraged that we live in a democarcy that despite all of it's very human failures provides a framework for righting the ship when a pirate takes the helm. And I believe that is happening. There are too many people of good will and generosity in this country to allow present day Carpet Baggers to destroy what so many gave their lives to create.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:05 AM

Liz - the American War of Independence wasnt't Britain v the Colonies it was Britain v the Colonies + France + Spain + the Netherlands (apologies if I've left anyone out).

Do people in the USA believe that it was George III who was running Britain at the time? We chopped the head of the last King who tried that!

Thanks to Little Hawk. It seems that you explained what I was saying much better than I did. I think I was going for soundbites!!

I think that there could have been a sort of intermediate American Civil War/Revolution round about the 1830s when emancipation came through. The main difference in America was that the slave owners lived on the land, whereas in the British West Indies they tended not to. I can't see any other scenario than a quick defeat for the South in such a war if it was Britain plus the North against them.

And of course you Americans would have been playing cricket. And you'd have been much better people because of it! (And you'd've beat us possibly even more than now do the Australians, New Zealanders, West Indies, Sri Lankans...)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM

Surely

Britain + some of the Colonists V Some of the the Colonists + France + Spain + the Netherlands (apologies if I've left anyone out).

The Revolution was really a civil war as well. There was definite support for and against the Crown from the colonies.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM

About a third of the Colonists support England, a third were for Independence, and a third didn't give shit who who won as long as they were left alone to get on with the sowing, harvesting and other daily tasks. This according to John Adams, who was there and ought to have known.

I find most revolutions are that way, except that the "don't give a shit" portion is usually larger than 1/3.

One immediate effect of the Colonies losing the War would have been at least a hundred bodies swinging in the wind -- assuming that they were left unquartered.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:57 AM

I'd be able to get a decent pint of Bitter.....

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 09:57 AM

Imagining alternative hisitories is fun enough, but there are so many variables. For example, at what point do you place your imaginary change, before the fighting has started so the war gets averted, or when it's well under way?

Saying "we" isn't really justifiable anyway. It's never "we", it's "they", because, if things had gone differently, the "we" who is put in the hypoethical would never have existed.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:28 AM

O.K: Maybe the title should have been "What If those persons who lived at the time of the Revolutionary War, Understanding That Only One-Third Of The Population Supported The War, Lost The War, Assuming That The War Had Actually Started? :-)

Imagine.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:28 AM

We'd have to spell it "aluminium".



Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 10:45 AM

well you'd have make do with a Moderately Large Mac, because we English aren't given to making extravagant claims.

the queen would have to have a boobs job and face lift, more of a sort of Joan Rivers style monarchy.

You would have taught Red Indians to play cricket, and they would beat you.

you'd have to get used the Scots and the Irish hating your guts, and Martin guitar factory would go out of business, cos you'd all sing folksongs unaccompanied with a finger stuck in at least one ear (the other ear optional).

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:09 AM

Wonderful post, Weelittle:

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

Paul Burke, you are kidding, right? Like the English didn't come in and take away the land from the native Irish? Please tell me you are not that ignorant of the history.

Could some of my Irish friends please explain to this guy the truth of it?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Alice
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:36 PM

Paul Burke wrote... "The Irish are still in possession of most of their land..."

Paul, my Irish great grandparents had their land taken away by the British. The oppression finally drove them from their native parish to immigrate to the US in the 1880's. They grieved the loss. They did not want to leave their own country. The installed landlord was oppressive and they left to survive, but they had to give up the land their ancestors had for hundreds of years. My relatives continue to go back and visit the town we came from, grieving the loss of our native home. Millions of native Irish families were driven from Ireland and are not "still in possession" of their land.

The native Americans are still having to deal with what happened to their land, I agree, a sad legacy of broken promises.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 12:54 PM

Alice/Big Mick - for English/British read English/British Aristocracy. My ancestors never took anybody's land. Neither did they have any land of their own to be taken.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:03 PM

Alice, some of my Irish ancestors came to England from Galway and Westmeath between the 1840s and the 1900s. Some of them never had any land to be taken, not everyone can have the farm in a big family. Others were actively involved (as land agents) in evictions. Still other ancestors were English, but they weren't taking anyones land in Ireland; as Recusants they had enough on their hands trying to stay unnoticed by the law. Others still were soldiers and factory workers.

But the big difference between Ireland and the USA is that any attempts at genocide in Ireland were ineffective (not totally for lack of trying), whereas whole nations have disappeared in America, and were intended to.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:19 PM

I wouldn't need a passport to visit "Old Blighty".

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM

But there isn't a Native American Republic taking in most of the North American continent is there? And not likely to be.

The basic dynamic involved is that settlers engaged in occupying a foreign country tend to go in for what is now called ethnic cleansing, displacing the original inhabitants insofar as they can. It happened in America, Australia, South Africa, Israel. It happened in Ireland too, most especially in some parts, but alongside the other dynamic of trying to exploit the natives rather than replace them, as in South Africa. That keeps the way open in the long run for some kind of qualified reversal.

It's really nothing to do with any intrinsic difference between the people involved.
.......................

But it's silly people getting hot under the collar about imagining how history might have worked out differently. It's just a game after all. (Mind though in the context of the World Cup, it has to be admitted, the fact that something is "just a game" doesn't stop people getting very hot indeed under the collar, and smashing the furniture at that...)

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bert
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:29 PM

Another possible scenario is that The Colonies could have gone the same way as most of the rest of the British Empire and could have been given back to the natives sometime after WWII.

Well said, Greg F, the same thing can be said for a decent loaf of bread.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:32 PM

Yes, even a war was ostensibly fought over a soccer game...though there were other reasons too.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:41 PM

"Would George Bush be just another lonely cowpuncher down in Texas?"

Jerry, Jerry, Jerry !!! ONE MORE TIME - Shrub is NOT from Texas and he's never punched cows. The longhorns here in Ft Worth would most likely punch him back.

George W is a yankee carpet bagger { with my apologies to all of the GOOD yankee carpet baggers } who came down from New England to Texas just to make money. And he didn't do a very good job of it either. We're willing to send him back anytime.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:46 PM

Yeah, I know that Wesley... I know that he wasn't born in Texas... he was born right here in Connecticut. But, he claims himself as being a Texan. I mean, he wears a cowboy hat, doesn't he? Up here in Connecticut, we like to think of him as a Texan.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 01:57 PM

But Texas would probably have been Spanish anyway...

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:13 PM

So, if Texas don't want W, and Connecticut don't want him, and Maine don't want him, who does?

But back to the topic at hand...

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:47 PM

When his old man was running for president, he claimed to be a "Mainer" because he owns a summer place in Kennebunkport. Funny that he never paid one cent in Maine income tax.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Ernest
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

McDonalds would be serving Haggis.

They would ask you: "Do you want tatties with that?"

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Dax
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 04:44 PM

Happy 4th!
In Nova Scotia the British governor, Edward Cornwallis did indeed spread smallpox among the Indians by giving them infested blankets. The excuse being that the Mi'kmaq were French allies and all was fair in war. Disease from the white man killed most of the natives by intention or by accident as they had no immunity to the white man's germs. Nova Scotia was also a haven for slaves fleeing the USA. We did not send them back, but neither were they treated as equals. We chose not to join the Revolution because we were prosperous under the Crown at that time, and so remained loyal to Britain. We gained an influx of refugees from the 13 more southern colonies known here as United Empire Loyalists. They helped build this country and we owe a dept to the American revolution for that. When Canada demended its independance we were able to do it through peacefull means, partly because Britain did not want another revolution and negotiated instead. We also owe the USA for that.
A yet unborn country to be known as Canada benefitted greatly from the American Revolution although its people fought in opposition.
   Ain't history strange?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 05:24 PM

Those are very interesting insights, Dax.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:25 PM

Yes the loss of the US prompted a report from Lord something-or-other, which the Goverment acted on, and it changed the relations with Canada, and the other white colonies hugely. It essentially gave them what the US rebels were demanding in the first place. Lower taxes, and more representaition in Goverment. It's the reason they didn't get upset with us in the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:32 PM

You're welcome...

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: kendall
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:43 PM

Actually, when the first shots were fired, the Americans had it made under British rule. The only thing still in place was the "Navigation Acts." They guaranteed a market for the American goods, but they were not allowed to do business with whom they chose. And, they were better off than their counterparts in England.

The radicals wanted war, and they got it.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 08:46 PM

That's the way radicals always are... (grin) They yearn to sweep the board clean of the "old ideas" and start afresh.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: GUEST,Dax
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 11:11 PM

Bunnahabhain , that would be Lord Durham, known in England as Radical Jack. His report brought about democratic government to Upper Canada (Ontario) and Lower Canada (Quebec) and led to amalgamation with Nova Scotia and New Brunswick to give birth to the Dominion of Canada in 1867.
Other colonies and territories joined later; Newfoundland being the last in 1949.
Nova Scotia came very close to declining the invitation to join, as it had declined to join the rebelling colonies nearly a century earlier. Ironic in that the main reason was that Nova Scotia's ecomomy was much more closely tied to the USA than it was to Upper Canada. It was also the most prosperous of the colonies that had remained British. Under confederation that prosperity was lost because trade routes change from the sea to the land.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: LadyJean
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:42 AM

Now here's a question. Would the flowering of New England have happened if we'd remained a British colony?
Would there have been a Margaret Fuller, a Ralph Waldo Emerson, a Herman Melville, an Emily Dickenson. Well, there might have been, but would they have been taken seriously as writers, these men and women from the colonial backwoods?
Off the top of my head I can think of only 2 Canadian writers of any note, Robetson Davies and L.M. Mongomery.
Lincoln would, probably, be remembered as an engineer, not a politician. One of those interesting facts, Lincoln held a patent for a piece of machinery designed to help riverboats move upstream. He was a bright man. Lacking the opportunity to study law, he would have focussed his energies on mechanics, I suspect. Though he also wrote poetry......

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 12:51 AM

Some other Canadian writers:

Margaret Atwood, Alice Munro, Earle Birney, Timothy Findlay, Michael Ondaatje, Margaret Laurence.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:00 AM

BTW, Emily Dickinson was not really appreciated until after her death. Much later in fact. Very few of her poems (I read somewhere years back that only seven were published--and none under her name) were released. It wasn;t until the early 1920s that there was a major release of her work.

Some of the Canadians have an interesting history too. But that would be thread drift.

FYI.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:05 AM

But, he claims himself as being a Texan. I mean, he wears a cowboy hat, doesn't he?

Hell, I wear a dress and frilly knickers, don't make me a lady!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Wesley S
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 09:21 AM

True - I read a book by John Grisham - it doesn't make me a lawyer.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 11:32 AM

The Answer is: Planet Of The Apes

And the Question is: What If We Had Lost The Evolution?

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 01:24 PM

..er...the 1st Cricket International would likely have been played between England & somebody else that also still plays the game?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:18 PM

You wouldn't hear much about Patrick Henry, and Benedict Arnold would be a hero.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 03:31 PM

We would end up being pompous and believing the sun never sets on our empire.

Hmm... maybe we did learn a few things from those loveable limeys.

Brit beer?   Please, pond scum has more flavor. We may be guilty of having tasteless swell like Budweiser, but we also learned brewing skills from the Germans and Belgians and now have one of the most interesting lines of brews on the globe.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Les from Hull
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:33 PM

You would also know that the term 'limey' was a term of endearment meaning 'someone who is not suffering from scurvy'!

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

Of course. And you know what the term "Yank" represents?

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

Ah.. she wears cheap knickers... one Yank and they're off.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:17 PM

I think Ron must have come across the English equivalent brews to Budweiser, which are equally repulsive though in a different way. I'm glad to hear that there are a range of far better American beers, and assure him the same is true of English beers.

Subject: RE: BS: What if We had Lost The Revolution ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

Real Budweiser (Budvar) which comes from the Czech Republic is of course quite a different case. And I wish In had a case of it downstairs in this hot weather...