Where is God?

Subject: Where is God?
From: EarlofSidcup
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 03:16 AM

From a letter in today's Daily Telegraph:

SIR - Have I just heard the first fruits of the proposed legislation to make incitement to religious hatred a criminal offence? Speaking on the Today programme yesterday morning, the Bishop of Oxford referred to "the divine mystery at the centre of the universe", presumably to avoid giving pre-eminence to the Christian Deity through use of the exclusive epithet God, which claim, he must have thought, could be interpreted by worshippers of other gods as an incitement to religious hatred.

I tried out this new religious correctness on Genesis 1, v 3-4:

"And this divine mystery at the centre of the universe said, Let there be light: and there was light. And the divine mystery at the centre of the universe saw the light, that it was good; and the divine mystery at the centre of the universe divided the light from the darkness."

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: X
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 03:23 AM

Where is God? I think I just saw him in the eyes of my 85 year old mother.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Gervase
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 04:47 AM

Where's God? Anywhere you care to make her.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 05:24 AM

According to Clapton fans He'll probably be at the Albert Hall around Christmas.
RtS (nearly at the bottom of the old jokes bin)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 09:54 AM

"And this divine mystery at the centre of the universe said, Let there be light: and there was light. And the divine mystery at the centre of the universe saw the light, that it was good; and the divine mystery at the centre of the universe divided the light from the darkness."

--EarlofSidcup

Actually, I like that. It has a kind of beauty. I think you could clean it up a bit, though...

"And this divine mystery at the centre of the universe wished there to be light, and there was light. From the centre of the universe, this divine mystery knew the light and it was good. And the light was divided from the darkness."

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 11:16 AM

*Singing*

There's no god
And precious few heros

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: The_one_and_only_Dai
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 11:22 AM

'Dunmanifestin', a well-appointed retirement home in Eastbourne for superannuated deities.

My friend's cousin's sister works there, and she has a terrible time breaking up the fights between old El himself (he will insist on being addressed as YHWH though) and the rest of the Elohim, who still resent being sidelined... but hey, what goes around comes around.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 12:04 PM

Sorry to add yet another smart-arse comment, but doesn't referring to a single indivisible divine mystery offend pantheistic religious followers like hindus? There are more of them here than I'd care to upset.

Steve

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 01:06 PM

Who says a divine mystery has to be indivisible?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 22 Nov 01 - 07:53 PM

I saw starving children,and, I screamed at God. The, I realized that those starving children were God screaming at me.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Cappuccino
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 10:37 AM

Thanks, Kendall, I needed one more saying for a charity 'book of inspirational thoughts' I'm commissioned to write. If you can say where that one came from, or if it's yours, I'd appreciate a PM.

Regards, - Ian B

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 10:53 AM

Footprints.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 01:52 PM

Sorry, I dont remember where I got it, it's too profound to be mine.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: kendall
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 01:58 PM

Here is another favorite of mine: The Devil loves an unwanted child. (Henry Kranz, mountain man insights) Henry is a resident at Kripalu in West Stockbridge Mass.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 02:00 PM

"for God so loved the world..."

Givn that man was made in His image, He should understand a bit about our lives, and how we feel.

Given that, He's got a piss-poor way of showing his love

Maybe it will all become clear when I'm dead, but I doubt it.

Paul

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: marty D
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 04:20 PM

Sadly, God is right there by the side of anyone who says he is no matter how heinous or noble their deed. He was certainly there with the terrorist pilots before they crashed the planes, and obviously was with the victims before they died.

He's with those who feed the starving, on condition they convert to the faith of their 'benefactors'.

He's with those who want their Nations to remain 'pure'.

As a church goer in my youth I was very sad when I started realizing that God was used by so many as simply an excuse for cruel bigoted and wretched behaviour. As part of a religious community I felt too intimidated to rock the boat when abuses were obvious. To be able to see right and wrong clearly and not through an idealogical filter has been a blessing to me, and is MY idea of being 'born again'.

Sorry to be 'heavy', but the question WAS asked.

marty (scampering back to guitar threads!)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: wildlone
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 05:08 PM

Right there all the time waiting.
dave

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 05:13 PM

Sorry -- there is no "there" there, no "where" to it, and to be able to even ask the question requires a profound inability to hear the answer.

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Paul
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:26 PM

Amos,

Does that mean I doomed then? For the question comes very easily.

Paul

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:34 PM

I guess that settles it then, Amos.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Nov 01 - 06:40 PM

There were/are no atheists in the trenches.

Gareth

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 03:17 PM

"No atheists in the Trenches"

What a song title. Where's Eric Bogle when ya need him?

Rick

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 03:25 PM

It doesn't mean you're doomed. Anyone can mouth a question. "How high is French?", for example, or "What's the temperature of yesterday?" or "what is the specific density of thought?". "Where is God" is exactly the same sort of mis-postured semantics, mixing frames of references in order to make something up that sounds meaningful but is cast off from any ground truth. There is no "where" there. It's not accessible to measurement in terms of space-time continuua.

Just ask anyone who's been one.

A.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SharonA
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 03:55 PM

I'm still trying to figure out why Earl has a problem with God being referred to as "the divine mystery at the centre of the universe" aside from the length of the politically-correct version. I agree with CarolC that it has its own beauty, a lyrical quality. Besides, "God" is also referred to in the Bible by longer names such as "I am that I am" and by all the descriptive terms that sound somewhat similar to "the divine mystery at the centre of the universe".

I wish we knew the context in which the Bishop of Oxford used the term; then we'd have a better idea whether he was being PC or trying to express his concept of God, or what.

Amos: As long as we're asking questions that are semantically mispostured, how about: "Where the heck is the center of the universe?" (As if an infinite universe had a center! Talk about your mysteries!) (Or do we consider the universe to be finite these days?)

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:09 PM

That's an easy one, Sharon. Each of us is the center of our own universe.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: paddymac
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:17 PM

I was tossing back a few jars with him/her/it (looks can be so very deceiving these days) at my local last night. I thought he was a he, but some folks thought she was a she, and others seemed to think s/he was undecided. Nobody voted for "it" because it seemed so, well, impersonal. Though (take your choice)didn't say much, the rest of us were discussing the differences between between bin laden, falwell, robertson, and a few hundred other book-thumpers of diverse denominations and more-or-less agreed there wasn't much difference at all. Go figure, eh?

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: beadie
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:33 PM

I was walking through the oak grove on the hill behind my barn the other evening, the Deity was ticked off about something or other and bonked me on the gourd with an acorn from one of her branches.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 04:40 PM

Some people don't like to talk about "God," and taking that into account, I have been known to refer to God simply as The Universe.

I don't pretend to know where God/the Universe is, but it's a fact He/It moves in some mighty mysterious ways.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 05:01 PM

Actually, much that the Bishop of Oxford and his fellow Christians could offend me if I want them too. Of course, I've got better things than to be offended by little things as ego-centric religions.

Why would I be offended? Well, to start with there's this whole "monotheistic" thing which so many people interpret as meaning that there is only one god. If you actually look closely at the Ten Commandments no where does it say that there is only one god.

Exodus 20:3-6 - "You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..."

No where does it say that there is only one god. It only says that the the Judeo-Christian-Islamic God is to be the only one people should pay attention too. It also tells to not make idols (a part which Christians frequently ignore) and it then goes on to day that the J-C-I God is jealous - frankly that's a pitiful statement to me. People who suffer from jealousy need help (and are committing a mortal sin in some sects). It seems ironic that the same thing that is a sin is something that God appears to be proud of in Himself. So it appears that the Bible upholds the fact that there are many gods in the Universe. It just has the opinion that one is better than the rest. And to be honest, I beleive that from this stems a great deal of the world's problems (the whole "We're better than you" thing.)

SO: where is God? well, if he is a J-C-I God - he's asleep and totally ignoring the plight of his followers.

If not, he/she/it is everywhere and in everything and followes the laws of nature/the Universe. Not playing favorites but helping those who live that traditional ways as closely as possible in harmony with the rest of nature.

Yeah, I know, I've probably made some people mad with the above statements, but frankly, everytime I'm cut-off in traffic by a person on a cell-phone, driving a big gas-guzzling SUV with a fish symbol on the back proclaiming that they are a good Christian I get mad too.

Remember people, when it comes to the Earth - were all in it together.

pax yall

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Maxine
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 05:41 PM

I can think of several times, when I've wanted to punch 'God' on the nose. If he's there, and I really hope he is, he has some serious explaining to do. The older I get(I'm 34 now-yikes!) the more I find I want to believe in something, but bad things happen so often it is difficult. I'm happy to listen to any amount of persuasion - provided it's not from Jehovahs Witnesses. My husband reckons he saw him outside a chip shop in Clapham last week, but I have to tell you, I don't believe him!

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 05:48 PM

Everywhere.

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 06:30 PM

Ok, Amos... here's where I'm having a problem with your absolutism:

If there is no "there", then we have to consider the possibility that all of physical reality is just an idea. In such a case, there is no such thing as "real" other than the meaning we assign to it.

So in that case, the concept of "Amos" is no more real than the concept of "there". With this paradigm, these concepts exist if we decide they do.

So there can be a "there" if we want, or not. As we wish.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 06:44 PM

dead

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 06:46 PM

" God save the King"

"Gotte strafe dei Englanders" (sic)

"My God ", said God " I've got my work cut out"

Gareth

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM

Wherever you go, "there" you are.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,HippieChick
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:05 PM

It's people like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson, etc. who give Christianity a bad name. People who believe but don't like thinking find it easy to accept those who appear sure of themselves and outspoken. Doesn't mean they represent the Holy Trinity (one God, 3 parts) or even a lot of Christians. Certainly they don't represent ME!

Certain denominations/sects/what-have-you tie sin and guilt together so tight that the burden is too heavy for most mortal flesh, and so people renounce Jesus because of dogmatism that is way off base from the what Scripture says.

To me, we all sin. Big deal. Confess, repent. The Lord knows the truth of your heart. It's done; overwith. Get on with the rest of your life. When religious folks hand out guilt and shame in a wheelbarrow, people who want something more from God can't get it from organized religion and go elsehwhere.

Salvation would look a lot better to a lot more people if teachings weren't tainted with do's and don'ts and guilt up one side and down the other. It gets in the way of receiving the joy of Jesus.

Yes I'm born again. Yes I'm a socialist/leftwing-bleedingheart/magenta-ish kind of weirdo. My sense of egalitarianism would make most capitalists puke. :) Check my website (shameless advert) http://communities.msn.com/FolkieFolks/ Pete Seeger's defense of our First Amendment rights has it's own page.

*HippieChick steps of her soapbox*

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,kendall
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:06 PM

I believe God is a creative force, and, most of the stuff that has been written about him/her is rubbish.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:11 PM

Well, Carol, that's as you see fit, I am sure. What I understand people to be referring to when they use that poor dogeared term is not something that can have a "where" (in the dimensional sense) by its nature. It's like asking which way water swims. The point I am making is a very simple one. If you reduce or degrade the term to some ridiculous icon or mental image, I suppose you could put that somewhere in the universe, but you wouldn't get very God like answers from it! :>)

A

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 07:37 PM

I guess that would depend on how you define the concept of "God". Which, if the discussion on this thread is any indication, is hardly a fixed concept.

So I guess some concepts of "God" can have a where, while other conceptes of "God" preclude the possibility of a where, and yet other conceptual realities preclude the possibility of differentiating between "God", "there", and "Amos".

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:02 PM

All of the above, plus the negation of those, plus other stuff that hasn't even been spoken of here...or can be. For reference material, consult the holy books of every religion on Earth, plus the writings of great thinkers and philosophers out of every civilization in history...

And then you will just have scratched the surface.

That out of which all observable manifestations arise cannot properly be spoken of as "dead" since it is itself the source of both life and death, which would not exist as concepts in someone's mind had they not arisen out of the unmanifest in the first place.

That which was there before either life or death is what life and death are now merely secondary reflections of.

And nothing we say here matters....or it all does. Take your pick, according to your free will to believe anything you care to...quite a burden to have to bear! It would be so much easier to just have some "leader" tell you what to believe, wouldn't it? That explains why most people make such good followers and conformists.

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: DancingMom
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:21 PM

...WITHIN...

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:37 PM

Ah! Now you're really onto something. Bravo, Dancing Mom!

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:48 PM

From Conversation At Midnight by Edna St Vincent Millay

(Anselmo, the priest, after playing some Bach, has left the group to go home. His dear friend, compatriot, but agnostic, Ricardo remarks):

Whatever the case for God, the splendour of Man
Cannot be questioned.
This Music, this

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST,Edmund
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 08:58 PM

From Conversation At Midnight by Edna St Vincent Millay

(Anselmo, the priest, after playing some Bach, has left the group to go home. His dear friend, compatriot, but agnostic, Ricardo remarks):

Whatever the case for God, the splendour of Man
Cannot be questioned.
This Music, this impeccable, projected
By peccant men, who even as they laboured sank and died
Irrefutable witness to that splendour stands

It speaks more loud
Than the waves that batter
The wild bluf: There is no God,
But it does not matter
Man is enough.

Sorry I messed up the first try .... Edmund

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 09:03 PM

As somebody whould be called a "liberal Catholic," I guess that from a theological standpoint, I have no problem with the use of the term, "the divine mystery at the centre of the universe." From a literary standpoint, it drives me bonkers. Used once, it's pretty good - but I'd hate to see God referred to like that every time. We liberals like to rename things with long, politically-correct titles that we think are devoid of the prejudices held by our forefathermothers. In the process, we murder the language and end up sounding trite. Worse yet, we turn to acronyms.

Our DMATCOTU, who art in heaven....

Actually, I wish liberals would get over their hangups about words, and not get so damn upset about how other people talk.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 09:12 PM

That's a fine poem, Edmund. Much of what I have read suggests to me that man is God, incarnate, but just hasn't fully realized it yet. A god who isn't fully conscious cannot fully realize godliness, but can certainly have glimpses of it, and achieve it in fleeting moments.

Every man's God is exactly what he thinks it is. An atheist's gods are reason, logic, material things, and physical survival. That's a game with limited results, which always ends in a final and total defeat (death), but if it's all one believes in, then it is entirely sufficient to meet one's expectations for what one chooses to call "life"...a temporary field of existence.

- LH

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From:
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:06 PM

Bethlehem

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:34 PM

The amazing philosopher Georges Bataille writes that God is everything that ISN'T oneself, including the unfathomable other. This makes sense to me.

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: 53
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:48 PM

where do you think he is? BOB

Subject: RE: Where is God?
From: Amos
Date: 27 Nov 01 - 10:50 PM

The Universalists like to dally with the notion of the circle whose center is nowhere, and whose perimeter is everywhere....

This particular referent does have a "place in existence". It simply does not have location (physical x,y,z coordinated location) as an attribute.

To reduce is to semantic wishwashand make semantic silly putty is to deny the Quality of it.

This is no more "absolutist", as Carol complains, than it is to say that water is wet. it isn't wet because some think it is, and not because others think not. The wetness of water is a fact, not an opinion.

If you want a more acceptable answer to the question, try, "In the mirror". It's a silly question.

A