A Message for Gargoyle

Subject: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 10:35 AM

Joe: If you want to eliminate this thread, that's your choice. I was upset about the thread attacking Gargoyle and wanted to send him a PM but the only Mudcat name that came up was Gargoyle Hunter. I don't know if that's "Gargoyle" or not.

I just wanted to speak on behalf of Gargoyle. I know that most of his posts are insulting, and I've been turned off by them as much as anyone. But, Gargoyle is a person, not a Gargoyle. There have been times in every one of our lives when we've been Gargoyles, too... times when we've been angry, felt rejected and unloveable. That's when you feel like hurting somemone else, because you're hurting. When you're in that state of mind and heart, there are only two ways to go... become more bitter and isolated, or let people into your heart. A good friend will speak out against the actions but seek some common ground where bitterness can be laid aside on both sides.

So, if you read this Gargoyle, I've appreciated a couple of positive comments that you've made on threads that I've started. As far as I'm concerned, you behavior isn't welcome here, but YOU are! If you PM me, I be glad to share some music with you.

We're all in this together.

Brother Jerry

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 11:13 AM

While making allowances for John9 from Hull, I totally agree with you Jerry, and I think the attack on Gargoyle was inappropriate.
John

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: C-flat
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 11:14 AM

Well said Jerry. I was upset to see that thread here too and, although there will always be disagreements and the occassional insult hurled in the normal course of some topics of discussion, to create a thread to attack any individual seems inappropriate on this forum. I'm pleased to see it has now been closed.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 11:35 AM

Hey, John9 is my brother, too..

Jerry

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 11:48 AM

ummm...Jerry....your 'family' gatherings must be interesting- ;>)

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 11:52 AM

Never a dull moment, Bill! Maybe I'll videotape the next one.. :-)

Jerry

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 12:06 PM

Seemed a fair enough comment on the part of John of Hull, the humour took the edge off it. Quite goodnatured really. And gargoyle does rather ask for it. I can't imagine that he'd have had any complaint about it.

I think it may be that insulting each other in that kind of way is seen as a more normal way of social interaction here than across the Atlantic.

Australia seems to play by similar rules, or maybe a bit rougher. I quote from a previous post I made one time:

There's the story about the cricket tour in Austalia back in the 30s at a time when "bastard" as an insult was a lot more serious in England than it is now. The English captain complains to the Australian captain that one of the Ozzies has called one of his men "a bastard".

The Australian captain apologises, and calls his team together. "Now which one of you bastards was it called that English bastard a bastard?" he asks."

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 12:09 PM

I've disagreed with a lot of things that have been posted. We are all entitled to our opinions -- most of the time they're worth what they cost, and that includes my own.

As for the message insulting Gargoyle: I was going to post to it and found it closed. Big red letters. Good. There's enough incivility around -- and please don't go insulting j0hn9, either.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 12:33 PM

As we say in the South, be sweet, y'all. :-)

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: mooman
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 12:46 PM

I'll repeat the message I posted on the now-deleted thread.

In the couple of direct exchanges I have had with Gargoyle over the years, I found him musically very knowledgeable and personally helpful to me (e.g. about music venues when visiting the USA).

As I said before, I wouldn't judge a book by its cover.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Peg
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 01:53 PM

Gargoyle is a stalker and   I think,   perhaps,   unbalanced   enough to be dangerous.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 02:51 PM

Sometimes Gargoyles posts are the only thing worth reading on Mudcat...

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: open mike
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 02:55 PM

consider the source...

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 04:23 PM

"Sometimes Gargoyles posts are the only thing worth reading on Mudcat..."..??? Good grief, CH...you ARE jaded.....

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 04:27 PM

Nah, Peg, if anyone's in danger it's Gargoyle, not those he insults.

Gargy seems to assume that there's no possibility of him pissing someone off badly enough to make them want to travel to (insert Garg's hometown here) and be waiting for him after he's finished (insert Garg's job description here) at (insert Garg's place of employment here) for the day. Considering that there are hundreds of Mudcatters who know Garg's real name and can easily fill in the blanks in the above sentence, it seems to me that it would behoove him to behave in a more civil fashion. Push enough people's buttons and the laws of probability say that eventually you're gonna hit one that pushes back.   

Bruce

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 04:33 PM

"no possibility of him pissing someone off badly enough to make them want to travel to (insert Garg's hometown here) and be waiting for him after he's finished (insert Garg's job description here) at (insert Garg's place of employment here) for the day. "

One would have to be a mighty big wanker (Or even "unbalanced") to even consider doing such a thing because someone said something you didn't like on a pithy little folk music message board...

I mean, sheesh... get a life... It's just the internet...

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Helen
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 04:46 PM

I also know that Gargoyle has been blamed for a lot of the flaming and trolling which happened here at one particular time and it wasn't him, it was someone else. Some people will never believe that, though.

Look through Gargoyle's posts and count up how many times he has been helpful and knowledgeable and count the blessings that way. I just send him love and light when he pisses me off, and I also don't react to his piss-me-off tactics, but I know he will regularly drift between naughty to not-so-naughty so I just take the good with the bad.

Hi Gargoyle!

Helen

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: ddw
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 04:49 PM

Careful, Clinton -- some people get really riled when you attack their religion.....

david

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 05:06 PM

You mean the internet?

As a religion?

Or do you mean rippin' on Garg as a religion?

Either would be pretty sad indeed...

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 05:23 PM

"Look through Gargoyle's posts and count up how many times he has been helpful and knowledgeable and count the blessings that way."

Here's a set of them.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 05:26 PM

I believe everyone is entitled to his/her view. I like this forum because you can be critical, even nasty if you want and it can be shrugged off.I think that makes for democracy. I'd hate to see any kind of censorship on this forum. One thing, though. Those who are
"ad hominem" nasty have no force behind their opinions.

Frank

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 05:33 PM

The Gargoyle as we know him epitomizes the quintessential human condition: a mixture of good and evil. Most of us try to suppress the ugly side of ourselves, sometimes with grave psychological consequences. The Gargoyle recognizes the dual nature of our true selves and chooses to display the good or evil side, as the situation - as he sees it - demands. Defense mechanisms and survival instincts operating within us give precedence to remembering the negative encounters over the positive ones, but in even the most wicked of creatures, if one is willing to look hard enough, one can find a scrap of goodness. The Gargoyle is no exception.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 05:38 PM

And at least he doesn't hide while he's doing it.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 06:11 PM

Clinton - I once had a woman physically attack me for using the colloquialism "That's a whole different animal." She accused me of calling her an animal and proceeded to hit me with her umbrella. She was "unbalanced".

There are some very unbalanced people out there. Some of them know how to use computers and the "anonymity" of the Internet is a myth. Piss of the wrong people and they can find out who you are and where you live.

Now, while I'm not whacko enough to personally consider "revenge" for perceived slights delivered via the Internet (or otherwise) I am just paranoid enough to assume that there are people out there who are whacko enough to consider it. So, I try to behave myself. If that makes me a "wanker", so be it.

Bruce

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 06:14 PM

let me go on record as saying I don't think Bruce is not a wanker.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 06:16 PM

hell, you would think I was already in the wine   LET ME REPHRASE THAT AGAIN with no double negative! BRUCE IS NOT A WANKER!!

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 06:20 PM

...wrong again, Jimmy....

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 06:23 PM

" I am just paranoid enough to assume that there are people out there who are whacko enough to consider it"

Well, there's paranoid and there's reality... and then there's what actually happens...

I find it very hard to believe that ANYONE here on Mudcat would bother 'hunting' anyone down for anything other than maybe assult with a musical instrument, or attempted murder by over-consumption...

Especially given that there is a rather large ocean between the 2 largest groups here...

I'm not saying it's CAN'T happen... I just happen to thihk it's highly unlikely... and I can't be bothered worrying about what MIGHT happen... life's too short...

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Cruiser
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 06:27 PM

This is just too funny, the last 3 posts. Thanks for the laugh!

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 06:51 PM

People like Gargoyle provide the necessary spices that make Mudcat Stew just perfect.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 06:55 PM

jimmyt, I agree with Cruiser- thanks for the laugh.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: pdq
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 07:03 PM

Trying to drive anyone off the forum is simply wrong.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 07:30 PM

What hath I created? All I have to say is I don't think it serves any purpose starting a thread attacking someone.

Jerry

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: bbc
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 07:46 PM

I agree, Jerry. There is enough unpleasantness in the world already, without making it a goal on Mudcat as well. As it happens, gargoyle has only posted positive, supportive things to & about me. I would appreciate & accept him, regardless.

best to all,

bbc

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 07:46 PM

I seem to remember a discussion about Garg's piles or something. I'd like to know what makes his more special than say, mine (or Spaw's)...LOL!

I was thinking about this thread earlier today when idly watching townsfolk as I stood in line at a Bargain Shop trying to buy some double A batteries for my discman. We're not much different than any other cross-section of society I suppose, except we're smarter I like to think.

Here's to us and those like us, including Gargoyle.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 07:51 PM

I haven't gotten to the thread attacking Gargoyle but, hey, difference of opinion is what makes a horse race intersting...

There was a tthread a while back where one member thought he was being phsically threatened by another and said, "bring it on". That thread shouls have been stopped. This is not a place where people find others to engage in violent behavior agains one another but othe than that, if it isn't blatently stupid and vulgar, it doesn't offend my at all. Quite the contrary. In these times, it's good for folks to vent since most have been disenfranchished from the decision making powers that control their lives...

And, remember what Jesus said when the crowd of vigilantes was about to stone a prostitute. "Let he who not sinned cast the first stone."

Thanks for satrting this thread, Jerry. Tolerance is very much part of what we both know to be the salve for the wounds that seperate us.

Bobert

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:02 PM

Folks..what short memories you seem to have. First, I agree with Jerry's premise. It is a nice thought from a nice man. I do not agree that we should not call someone on bad behaviour. I have called those out that I disliked, and I have been called out when my behaviour merited it. In cases where, in retrospect, I realized my comments were wrong, I apologized.

Gargoyle has had times where his comments were reprehensible. Examples would be his attitude toward people who have terminal illnesses or who have loved ones with terminal illnesses. He goes far beyond what any decent human being should have to put up with. His disgusting comments to katlaughing are nearly as reprehensible. It is at times like these that I would ban him without a second thought. But it is not my site, it is Max's and he has decided that is not going to happen. In hindsight and after being around here for a fair number of years, I see the wisdom in his decision. When Garg is acting as our friendly, neighborhood curmudgeon, he is right on. He represents a different view that is vital. It is those times that I am glad he is here.

What am I saying? As a Christian, I understand completely the olive branch that our friend Jerry extends. But I also understand what many who haven't been here as long don't. Much of what Gargoyle has posted goes beyond destructive to disgusting. I have always wanted to meet him 3D to try and figure out what makes him tick. But I will not sit here and pretend that he hasn't said some of the most hurtful things that can be said.

Mick

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:15 PM

Thank you, Mick. You've said pretty much what I've been feeling since reading this thread. A lot of folks who haven't been here very long haven't seen the worst of gargoyle and, with deletion of personal attacks, most likely never will.

I understand Jerry's intentions, too, and have written to him, privately, about this thread.

For the record, gargoyle still has his membership. He chooses not to use it for logging in, nor to respond to PM's.

kat

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Amos
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:25 PM

Although it has been the keynote of many jokes I think there is something to be said for the notion that meds are involved. I have heard a number of different voices posting over Garg's handle and they strike me as the after-effects of biochemical imbalances -- all of them except one, anyway.


A

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:42 PM

Thanks for speaking up, Big Mick and katlaughing. I'm all for tolerance, Christian and otherwise; I am also all for keeping reality in mind. The reality is that gg at times is so far gone he would clear an audience faster than a fire siren.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Cluin
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 08:52 PM

"I mean, sheesh... get a life... It's just the internet... "


One of the smartest things I've seen posted anywhere.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: catspaw49
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 09:02 PM

I made a comment on the deleted thread so I'll comment here as well I guess. Garg has been an ass of the First Order many times in the past...Of course I have often returned that to him in kind. He has also been extremely threatening at times. On the other hand he has been involved in some simply great musical questions and has an excellent knowledge of music.

Over the years, Garg has mellowed somewhat and I now often find that he seems to be more interested in pushing the envekope by whatever means and margins are available as a way of enjoying himself. Some of his attacks lack the vitriol of old, others are just half-hearted efforts at best. Once in awhile he goes completely off the deep end.

Most of us still keep an eye on his antics but he no longer is the threat we used to feel.......partly because he has developed into one thing--our own in-house troll and flamer. We're used to it and judge each post accordingly. From helpful to humorous to grotesque and crude, we are used to his bag of tricks and he is used to getting axed.

Jerry, do not mistake what I say for approval. Garg and I will continue along, me telling him to fuck himself and he sending best wishes for my imminent demise. Take his good postings for the good stuff they are but try not to think he's an okay guy, just misunderstood. He and I are both assholes and both are an integral part of what Mudcat is. But never forget that when you befriend a snake, it is, after all, still a snake.

Spaw

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 09:08 PM

Garg is our Rorsach test, I guess... and yes, I've seen some things he's said that cross any line of humanity. Reminds me of one of my favorite children's book authors. Wanda Gag.

Jerry

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 09:27 PM

Well, I kinda like the guy. Trouble is, oftentimes he posts things we just can't allow. So, then we hit the delete button.

Some things we can't allow are personal attacks, stalking, and racism. We don't have the time or the desire to give full consideration to which personal attacks and the like are harmful and which are harmless. We just delete them all, as equitably as we can. That's why John's anti-Gargoyle thread was deleted. It wasn't horrible, but it wasn't allowed.

That's the way it is.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 09:29 PM

And I'm glad it IS, Joe..

Jerry

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 09:34 PM

Amen, Joe.

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 10:45 PM

Let's see what we know about Garg. He went to the University of Maine. His family lives in Arizona. He is divorced. He used to teach High school English but now he is retired. He has severe trouble with his eyes. He was a Philmont Ranger and so he is a dedicated boyscout(complete with the code of ethics, folks). He is a Republican. He makes money on some internet tricks he go into early
but not as much now as he used to. He collects dirty Rugby songs that he used to sing when he was the Songmeister for the Hash House Harriers of Long Beach which he joined to get rid of his middle age paunch. He drinks beer. He plays piano...

Oh wait, I'm stalking. Joe hates this. I better stop. How can anyone fear such an ordinary guy???? He has been playing dungeons and dragons so long, he has begun to believe his own bad press! It's just a fantasy character! Garg is actually an invention of Bert and Max, anyway...Love, harpy ( and who is that anyway????? do any of you really know?)

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: momnopp
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 10:47 PM

Yeah, what Joe said.

And what Mick said.

And Kat, too.

Oh, yeah -- and what Jerry said.

I'm very glad to be a part of a community that bans inhumanity, "personal attacks, stalking, and racism". That's the kind of place I want to hang my hat and the kind of folk I want to be associated with.

Thanks for being who, what and how you are.

Peace,

JudyO

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 10:49 PM

I don't think I'd let him help my Mother cross the street..

Jerry

Subject: RE: A Message for Gargoyle
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Dec 03 - 10:55 PM

Why Wanda Gag, Jerry? I have "Millions of Cats" - a little off-kilter, but kind of sweet. What made you think of her?

Dani