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BS: Kursk fiasco
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Subject: Karsk fiasco From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:31 AM I think it's really great, the way the Glorious Russian People's Navy is handling the "rescue effort". They wouldn't tell anyone what happened. They keep changing the story. They are blitheringly incompetent to help the sub, and they won't let anyone help. I think they would rather let the whole crew croak, than admit there might be a problem. So glad to see the Old Guard is still running the Kremlin. Johnny in Oklahoma City Related threads: |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GUEST,Barry Finn Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:32 AM There is little more than a couple times in the history of the Silent Service that an entire sub & crew were lost during peace time, two of those times were American subs, the Thresher & the Scorpion on which my brother served as a seal on a sub, thank God he was on the sick list when she went down(he never got survivor's leave & he never got over survivor's guilt either). We did for them no better then than what the Russians are doing now. They'll be no survivor's leave if they are to be added to that number, send along your prayers for mariners all. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 Aug 00 - 02:07 AM Eternal Father, strong to save Whose arm hath bound the restless wave. Who bidd'st the mighty ocean deep Its own appointed limits keep Oh hear us when we cry to thee For those in peril on the sea. Whiting said it best... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: KT Date: 16 Aug 00 - 03:04 AM Barry wrote...."send along your prayers for mariners all." Indeed. And their families....especially those of the ones on that sub.....
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GeorgeH Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:53 AM Thanks, Barry, for your intellegent and fair-minded "take" on this. I'm not sure ANY nation puts its citizens' lives above matters of "military secrecy" and similar bullshit! G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: InOBU Date: 16 Aug 00 - 07:14 AM Johnny: Oklahoma is well inland, so I suppose that you do not make your living on the sea. Those of us who do, or in my case, once did, do not see national flags when our brothers and sisters are in jeopardy. All who slip their cables and move over and under the sea, do so at some risk and go with the prayers of all others who share the oceans with them. Very few days pass by that I do not remember one of the most beautiful days when my crews and I rowed two currachs I built, out of Baltimore harbor, escorting the Pride of Baltimore out of the harbor. I still see her skipper at the helm, waving as she sped out to sea, and to her fate -- to run her bow into a wave and sink with many of her crew and her skipper in moments. This is a time for prayers and solidarity, not the old cold war mistrust which led us into so many bad times and bad decisions. Let us all extend to our Russian shipmates our prayers and hopes and help if they ask. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 16 Aug 00 - 07:51 AM Beautiful quote, LeeJ, thanks. Thanks, too, to Barry and InOBU. This whole thing has been bothering me a lot; it is a horrifying thing to imagine. I hope that today's news brings some good. In the meantime, all involved, even the incompetent-seeming government, are in my thoughts and prayers. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: P05139 Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:10 AM The Russians have actually got a word which sums all this up. I know cos I speak Russian. I'm gonna have to type it phonically cos I can't type in the Russian alphabet. The word is "oozhasno!" which means "terrible" FC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:38 AM I've only ever travelled above the waves but can try to imagine what horrors the crew are going through,a submariner's nightmare. I am pessimistic that the belated rescue attempts will be in time, I fear that someone will be composing a ballad to a lost brave crew on the lines of the "Springhill Mine Disaster" soon. On the Huntley thread Clive Cussler was mentioned. It may need a real-life Dirk Pitt to pull this off. We can only hope for calm seas and international cooperation. Whatever the fate of the crew, the state of the vessel's reactor will raise serous environmental concerns. We are told the Russian naval bases are already badly contaminated by poorly maintained nuclear powered vessels. RtS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 16 Aug 00 - 08:39 AM I have been holding the mariners and their families in my heart and aching for them and for mariners all. Thank you, Barry, Leej, InOBU and all. Keep praying... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Aug 00 - 09:26 AM Excellent postings from all and I can only echo the sentiment. Sending in additional aid is not going to make any difference, and will perhaps make things worse. As even Nikita himself once said, "A committee is an animal with four hind legs." The Russian technology below the surface is as developed as any on earth, but no one can control the conditions in the Barents Sea. The old habits of the cold war do die hard on both sides and the original multiple explanations of what happened did little to alleviate the "fears of Russian duplicity." However, the real fiasco here is the need on both sides to conduct dangerous simulations of war. May the coming days provide a rescue of the sailors and the occasional thought as to why we put young men in harms way. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Kim C Date: 16 Aug 00 - 10:00 AM I cannot tell you how torn up I am about this. I am earnestly hoping for a miracle. My first thought is always, what if someone I loved were in this terrible peril? I'm sorry, I just can't make the words come out the way I want......... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Aug 00 - 10:14 AM I just heard that England is sending a DSRV but it hasn't been formally requested and is still two days. If you haven't seen the pictures of the conditions in the Barents Sea, it doesn't look real good. Also, no communication has come from the sub lately. Hold onto good thoughts. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Rana who SHOULD be working Date: 16 Aug 00 - 10:19 AM Spaw, On the CBC radio news at 8 am they just announced that Russia had accepted UK offer of help. Just hope it is not too late. Rana |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Aug 00 - 10:23 AM Thanks Rana......CNN is still saying that it hasn't been "formally" requested.....whatever that means. The unit they are sending "mates" with the escape hatches on NATO subs, but no one seems to know if it will work on the Russian sub. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 16 Aug 00 - 11:34 AM According to the latest online article I read, the correct name is "Kursk" and they have officially accepted the aid of GB. They are also talking about raising it with air-filled pontoons to a level where scuba divers could work. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Aug 00 - 11:45 AM Yhat pontoon system is really iffy at best. This is one of the largest subs going, something about in the 20,000 Ton displacement size and about 475 feet long. The pontoon method as do most others, require a stable platform to work from and that's not likely with the current sea conditions. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:29 PM Just keep your fingers crossed, and hope we get some back alive. Some comments on this thread are a little off key in my opinion. The Russians care about their people, and have been doing what they can to save the crew. This task is a formidable one and there are many factors that make it almost impossible; weather and the fact that the sub is listed on the bottom being the main problems. Far from being incompetent they have some good blokes out there, but they lack the equipment and the logistical ability that we in the west enjoy. They are constantly in my thoughts and prayers, they are sailors and not "the enemy" (even if they were the enemy, my duty would be out there trying to save them) Yours, Aye. Dave |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:39 PM Banjo, assuming you want these guys out alive, how you must be wishing it could be the US Cavalry that saves them. Total humiliation.*BG* Not sure I'd want the Yanks coming to my rescue. Remember that mission to rescue the Iran hostages? Ha-ha-ha-ha-h - whoops - sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: P05139 Date: 16 Aug 00 - 12:52 PM I've just been watching the news and unfortunately, it appears that the people on board are dead. May their souls have safe passage to the afterlife. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Kim C Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:01 PM This whole situation seems very ironic to me when I consider that we just raised the Hunley. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: KT Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:17 PM Like you, kat, and Kim, and all of us I guess, I have been deeply disturbed by this, on all of the levels mentioned in the above posts... Imagine the numbers of people in the world who are, at this moment, aware of this disaster. Imagine, too, the power of combined good wishes, positive energy, prayer for all those involved....for resue, for comfort.....
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: KT Date: 16 Aug 00 - 01:56 PM that last part should read rescue, intelligent decision making......
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny Date: 16 Aug 00 - 02:10 PM Thanks for the correct spelling of Kursk. I re-read my post and I still don't see anything there suggesting that I was critical of the crew. Whatever their mission was, it is over now and they are helpless. Of course they deserve to be rescued! I do object to the obstinacy of the Russian Navy "High Command", in refusing outside help. They should be rescued by any means possible, even it it comes from the USA, UK, or anywhere. And I don't think there is any humiliation involved. Regarding the Thresher and the Scorpion, the situation was different. They sank below crush depth immediately, so there was no chance of a rescue. I am glad to hear that Barry's brother was on leave from the Scorpion, but I have never been able to imagine "survivor's guilt". They say it happens to lots of people, so it must be real. I remember the first time I heard Eternal Father Strong to Save. Didn't like the tune at all, but I was astonished to hear a hymn that was actually about something real -- about people right here on earth in a situation that was worth praying for. AMEN! == Johnny in OKC |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Penny S. Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:15 PM I was awake in the middle night when I first heard of this, and the men have been in my thoughts much of the time since. The Royal Navy craft got to Trondheim before the request. Sounds have been heard again. I keep thinking of an old SF story about a craft sunk in the dust on the Moon. That must have been based on submariners' experience. Unbearable Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Penny S. Date: 16 Aug 00 - 05:20 PM Oh, and Banjo Johnny, was the tune you heard Melita? That's the one we sing it to here, and it seems very powerful to me. Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:14 PM Banjo Johnny, I've re-read the whole thread and still can't find any suggestion from anyone that you were critical of the crew. Not sure where you got that from. I'm beginning to get the picture now. If a US sub sinks below crush depth, failure to mount a rescue operation is par for the course. If a Russian sub sinks in heavy seas, with strong, deep-running currents, any such failure must be "blithering incompetence." A member of the British support mission described ongoing contact with the Russian naval counterparts as "experts talking to experts." But what would he know? All in all, I thought there was more than a trace of nationalistic gloating in that first thread. If I've read it wrong, I'd be pleased to be corrected. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Linda Kelly Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:30 PM I doubt the situation would have been handled differently in either the UK or the US -neither military systems would rely on outside help until all possibilities have been explored -it is certainly nothing to do with incompetence on behalf of the Russians. My husband who has sailed in the Baring sea many times just shrugged his shoulders when he heard and said 'no chance'. On tonights news the situation remains grave with the British rescue team on its way from Norway, but unlikely to reach there until Saturday- I like the rest of you hope for a miracle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 16 Aug 00 - 06:39 PM Well whatever nationalistic gloating there was or is aside............. I said in my first post that Russian technology in subs has been on or above par with that of any other country. Their sub technology went off in a different direction than that of the US as bulldozed by Hyman Rickover and General Dynamics dba Electric Boat. They have not put as much emphasis on the DSRV concept as western nations and still rely on the same bell design that pulled men from the Squalus. In the case of Russian subs, that idea is not all bad and the DSRV still must have a stable platform to launch from. The sea conditions will make any attempt to launch and control a DSRV almost as difficult as using the bell. I'm sure that experts from all nations are and have thought through the options, but unless the weather cooperates, a good method doesn't really exist. Like others, Clinton has offered support and a US DSRV could be on scene in less than 24 hours, but I'm willing to bet that most experts in the field consider it to be still a problem of weather and sea conditions. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Lepus Rex Date: 16 Aug 00 - 07:08 PM My opinion: I doubt the Russian government gives a damn about what happens to the 118 sailors. Any govt. that would blow up civilian apartments (filled with precious ethnic Russians) to justify invading Ichkeria is inhuman. And that's only ONE Russian atrocity... ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny Date: 16 Aug 00 - 07:56 PM I didn't say it would be easy. And sorry, but I just can't "trust" Vladimir Putin. == Johnny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GUEST,Barry Finn Date: 16 Aug 00 - 07:57 PM Hi Banjo, my reply was not from any insensitivity on your part only that the focus remain on the sailors who are in need rather than what or who got them into their position in the first place & that when our subs sank that we were not much different from the Russians. From the small bit my brother would ever say about subs were that the Albacore was pretty decent & that the Scorpion was in very tough shape, again, not that much difference. His job was not sub related, it was the sub's job to get him & him group to certain places, drop them off & then come back for them. Survivors guilt is real for him, probably a close relation to post tramatic syndrome. He seeems to dwell in the depths in comfort & in company, as much lost to us as his mates. Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Sourdough Date: 17 Aug 00 - 12:44 AM One of the great submarine adventure stories of all time is the story of a US sub, the Squalus. She left Portsmouth and sank of New Hampshire. This was in 1939, I think. At that time, there had never been a submarine rescue. However, a submariner, an Annapolis graduate, named Swede Momsen, had been aware of the problem of underwater rescue and he designed the bell which is basically the design the Russians are using today. As I understand it, the Russians have a far better rescue vehicle than the bell but it hasn't been kept up since 1990 and is now useless. Anyway, they managed to rescue a good part of the crew. I can't believe that German submariners of that time took any pride in the fact that US submariners were trapped at the bottom of the Atlantic or that they weren't releived when at least some were raised. InOBU - I had the chance to sail on the Pride of Baltimore when she was on the west coast. I did a story on her and was very impressed by the captain (who had an unspellable name that I can't recall) and the crew. (I was really impressed with the lapstrake dory the captain had built, too.) Such a beautul clipper, such a young, enthusiastic crew and then a rogue wave and a lot of bad luck. Sourdough |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: InOBU Date: 17 Aug 00 - 07:31 AM Sourdough: Excuse the threadcreap, but after the event, I read Chesipeke by Mitchner, and he describes the tendancy for Baltimore Clippers to burry their bow in a chapter. The new Pride has more freeboard and is as a result safer but less rakish. She remains in my mind's eye a lovely haunting immage. I was building a currach in the Philidelphia Maritime Museum's workshop on the water. One of the servivors worked in the shop, nice fellow, I don't recall his name, but the chance that any were saved was a miracle. Let's hope and pray for miracle for our Russian shipmates. Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 17 Aug 00 - 07:38 AM Spaw, my (flimsy) understanding was that a British rescue mission was mobilised because a British DSRV could be got to the scene fastest? Are you sure the US could have had one there within 24 hours? Where would it have had to come from, and where would it have been landed? What has amazed me about the British intervention is that the vessel was flown not to Murmansk but to Trondheim, and is now travelling onwards from there by sea - a journey time of 50 hours. I assume there are logistical reasons why it could not have been flown nearer, but maybe it was to do with security. Anywy I've not seen an explanation. Ickle Dorrit, just in case you misheard radio reports as I did at first, the Kursk is in the Barents sea - though I realise you may have known this. Just thought I'd mention it, as they sound so similar on the radio. *BG* In fact Barents and Baring are in nearly opposite directions from the north pole. Not sure whether it's relevant for this kind of rescue, but the Barents must be much the colder - all of it is well within the Arctic circle. (I think the Baring is entirely outside the Arctic.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Aug 00 - 07:58 AM Sorry Fionn, but I meant at least to the same place the British unit has now arrived. The Navy has these on standby with transport aircraft and can be flown anywhere in the world within that time. I did see that the weather is improving with a high moving in and the winds and seas are both calmer. Also, the Kursk is lying at a down angle and listed at 60 degrees. The bell method is dificult at best, but at those angles and with the prevailing weather conditions, it'd be damn near impossible. Hope the DSRV arrives at the wreck with good weather as it too needs at least a somewhat stable platform to dive from. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 17 Aug 00 - 08:40 AM The nightmare element to this, wich somehow seesm to make it worse than most sea and air disasters, is the idea of it being dragged out into slopw motion. Trapped and doomed. As someone said up the thread, more like a mining disaster like the Springhill than anything else. I can't believe that the US or the British governments would behave any better in this sort of situation when it came to asking help. That doesn't in any way excuse Putin and his cronies, and if I was a Russian I'd want his scalp. But note, he's the darling of the British and American governments, regardless of Chechyna or whatever. "We can do business with him." For all those years we were told how terrible and all powerful these communist Russians were. Now the very same people who used to tell us that are saying how weak and incompetent they are now they've switched to capitalism.
If you believed them it's not much of a advert for capitalism. In fact I imagine the truth is somewhere in between, and the Russians have been muddling through all along, cocking it up sometimes and covering up, like everyone else. Only they aren't as good as covering it up these days.
I think fiasco was not the right word to use of such a horrible tragedy while still in progress. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GeorgeH Date: 17 Aug 00 - 08:58 AM Lepus. Sure, the Russian Gvmt. carries out atrocities. Just like the US. And the UK. And the only reason they'll be "concerned" is that of public opinion. All of which is irrelevent to the human tragedy of this event. G. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: L R Mole Date: 17 Aug 00 - 10:35 AM And as Mr. Ochs said of the Thresher, "For the ocean has no pity/For the waves, they never weep." Sometimes prayer is the only way to speak to that which is bigger than us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GUEST,C Dye Date: 17 Aug 00 - 12:17 PM Unfortunately, the Russians aren't the only people whose pride is preventing outside help. The US Forest Service has been offered the use of Russian tanker planes which can drop huge amounts of water onto wilderness fires, but keeps turning away the technology as "untested." Is it only in huge catastophes, like earthquakes, that we can accept help from others? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Lepus Rex Date: 17 Aug 00 - 10:54 PM George, yeah, I know. I wasn't trying to say that this isn't a tragedy, or to change the subject. What I was trying to say (but didn't get across) was that any survivors will probably die because their government values it's pride over the sailor's lives. (Off the subject, George, but just wanted to respond to something you said: Russian atrocities make American and British atrocites look like acts of kindness) ---Lepsu Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Lepus Rex Date: 17 Aug 00 - 10:55 PM ---Lepus Rex, even |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: ol'troll Date: 17 Aug 00 - 11:15 PM I spent Four years is the USNavy during Viet Nam. The song," Eternal Father.. "was known to us as the Navy Hymn and I, for one, sang it with feeling and frevor. The men aboard the Kursk and our brothers in peril no matter what nationality and, since all I can do for them and their families at this point is pray, I'm doing that. The last I heard was that there was a huge rent in the bow, probably caused by an explosion. Barry Finn, I feel for you and your family. May you- and your brother- find peace. Some do recover from survivor guilt. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Brendy Date: 17 Aug 00 - 11:54 PM I saw that they sailed out of Trondheim, Thursday, and ETA is sometime on Saturday afternoon, local time. I have either not enough words, or too many of them, to express myself on this one, except that I hope that each sailor walks off that rescue ship into the arms of his loved ones. 'Karsk', on the other hand, is a well known Norwegian alcoholic drink, consisting of a large measure of local moonshine - also known as 'Nitti Sex', and a correspondingly very small measure of strong black coffee - also known as tar. B. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:52 AM When I first heard about this, it was "Karsk" and taking place in the Bering Sea. Both wrong. This was on BBC, but they were trying to get info from the Russians, so I really don't blame the Beeb. On the other hand, I still say it's a fiasco from the first .. and a tragedy as well. Right now it looks as though a torpedo exploded. == Johnny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Aug 00 - 07:05 AM Thanks Spaw - I've got back to my PC at last. Looks like they went to Trondheim cos that's the nearest point at which they could embark a ship with some kind of giant A-frame from which they can lower the DSRV. Looks like they've ruled out any chance of a stable platform. The guys with the DSRV think they're equipped to launch in most conditions - the only problem being that they're likely to get on the scene way too late. The latest I heard is that the hatches are compatible, but that the forward hatch - the one they were intending to aim at - is unusable. Does anyone know of a tragedy in which a damaged British sub got partially submerged somewhere off Liverpool, or even perhaps within Liverpool Harbour itself? A large part of the ship was exposed,but they couldn't get the crew off and most, if not all, died over a period of several days. This would have been well within some people's memory (just before or just after WW2?), and I'm sure I've read about it somewhere. But in the last few days I've not found anyone who recollects the incident, which is pretty amazing. For some reason the name"Thetis" comes to mind, but I could have got that from somewhere else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Aug 00 - 07:14 AM copied from: English submarine accidents. 1 June, 1939 - The Thetis founders after flooding through the #5 forward tube, killing a total of 99 crewmembers, civillian technicians, and senior naval observers. One observer, one officer, and two crewmembers escaped. Thetis is salvaged and recommissioned as HMS Thunderbolt. (Johnson, "Thetis Submarine") . Congratulations to your memory, Fionn. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Aug 00 - 03:44 PM Many thanks Wolfgang. Did you know about it, or did you look it up? With part of the sub above water, and just a stone's throw from land, it must have been a traumatising saga. I'm surprised it's not better remembered, or maybe I've just been picking on the wrong oldies to quiz. Latest news from the Kursk is as depressing as anything so far. Seems like a large part of it is completely flooded. Anyway, here's hoping one or two come out alive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Kim C Date: 18 Aug 00 - 04:14 PM I was searching the CNN web page yesterday for news, and one story showed a picture of a sailor's mother, and a picture of the sailor himself. He's just a boy..... I read that most of the crew are in their late teens to early 20s. The photos certainly make it so much more real to me. I still can't help thinking, what if it was somebody I loved? What if it was my son, or brother, or husband, or friend? I hate to say so, but at this point I have given up hope for them, as all rescue attempts have thus far failed. It absolutely breaks my heart. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Karsk fiasco From: Irish sergeant Date: 18 Aug 00 - 04:28 PM I was a surface sailor. Barry, I do hope your brother finds the peace he and your family so richly deserve. National pride, incompetence, and finger pointing aren't important! At this point, what is important is trying to get those men off that vessel. It would be very nice in my opinion if it were American technology and Jack Tars that did so, but only because it would mend a lot of rifts that shgould have never been there in the first place but were because of the cold war. If the British can help, have on and let's brink those brave men back to their families! At this point, they have no place to go and it is the obligation of every maritime nation to render whatever assistance is needed to save the men of the Kursk. Not because it's a law, it isn't, but because it is the morally right thing to do. Anyone who has spent time at sea, will likely share that sentiment. It's not about national integrity, it's about sailors lives damn it! Kindest reguards to all, Neil |