How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:11 PM

DougeR, I am sorry, I thought I was careful in stressing the "in general". I by no means assume anything about all Republicans OR Democrats! My grandmother was the type of GOP member you describe yourself to be. I agree with BlueJay, though, the Grand Old Party has been usurped and "ain't what she used ta be".

If one listens to the most vocal of the party, one would never believe it to be the party of individual rights and, you are right, it has a lot to do with the abortion issue being used as a political hot potato, as well as prayer in schools, etc. IN GENERAL, it seems to me, the GOP is bent on telling everyone they will adhere to a strict paternalistic, and conservative Christain way of living, with certain freedoms, i.e. owning guns and, limited or no freedom in other areas, i.e. women's right to choice; freedom FROM religion as BillD. mentioned.

I think you and I discussed choice and gay rights a ways back and I knew you were supportive. I am glad you mentioned the Log Cabin Republicans. I have had an interest in them, mostly in a study of how they reconcile the conflicts, for years and, in fact, read a book written by one of them back in the early 80's. I still do not understand how someone can be gay and belong to a party which is known IN GENERAL for being opposed to their way of living; the same way I do not understand a woman choosing to live her life in a paternalistic church way, however I respect their right to and I mean no offense to anyone here at the Mudcat.

Fingers can be pointed at presidents and congress and their affiliated parties. I am more interested in the trenches: how has work-to-welfare lowered the numbers, yet left more children living in poverty; why doesn't our country recognise being a mother as a job and a necessity for the mental/emotional/physical wellbeing of children from birth through school; how is it that two parents have no choice but to work these days to get by; etc., etc. ad nauseum....

I say I am a liberal, even flaming (well the redhair has faded a little, but the flame still burns inside!), but really I find very few politicians whom I believe to be sincere and truly interested in The People. I get extrememly frustrated at people who bytch about this, though, yet continue to not vote. The precentage of people who do NOT vote is shameful and we only get what a small majority wants in any election because of it. If all Americans would dump the apathy/victim thing, realise that we do live in a great democracy and that it IS no ordinary, run-of-the-mill thing, this right to vote as we see fit, in fact it is something we should honour and cherish and actively participate in every chance we get because there are so many in the world who cannot enjoy such freedom and, vote we might actually give a third or fourth or even fifth party a real chance. Until then, I believe we are stuck with choosing between the best of the worst.

My granmda was one of the first to embrace new technology, the phone, refrigerator, etc., but that is not the kind of change I meant. I am sorry if that was not clear. I meant more along the lines of actual ways we live our lives from an ideological standpoint. In my opinion ONLY, I believe many Republicans are fearful of chnage which might free the oppressed, or even the suppressed from their control, be it their spouses, children, employees, employers, other classes, races, religions, etc.

I don't know if any of this is coming out right or not. For me, from what I read, hear, and see, it comes down to the GOP seems to be the hard-assed macho-person (male or female) of the family who believes you should pick the kid up, throw them in the deep end, and let them sink or swim, no matter what concerning advantages or disadvantages. On the other hand, again, from my perspective ONLY, it seems the Democrats are more like the softer fmaily member who believes everyone deserves at least one fair chance and will help people stick their toes in, wade a bit, get used to the water, then teach them to swim, without so much trauma as the other way.

Opinionatedly Yours**BG**,

kat

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:36 PM

My dear kat: And I do mean "dear!" We have been friends for a long time and will continue to be.

You make some good points and I won't attempt to refute those that I might not agree with. I've pretty much had my say on this subject. But, I must correct you (lovingly) on one point. We do not live in a democracy, the United States is a republic, not a democracy. They are similar, but still different. When we pledge allegiance to the United States of America, we pledge it to the "Republic for which we stand," not the Democracy for which we stand. **BG** back atcha!

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 05:51 PM

LOL! Too right ya are, DougeR! Thank yew, thank yew veddy much, darlin', for pointing that out! I think I am about spent on this one, too, but I must congratulate us all for once again for having a lively, respectful discussion of hard issues.

Probably should have said this at the first and been done with it:

I think defining conservative or liberal is like defining folk music...we will never, ever come down to a definitve conclusion of what they mean. I always say it takes two wings to fly, so left and right, let's keep it in balance!*BG*

luvyakat

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:05 PM

I'll drink to that, kat! Course I'll drink to just about anything. :>)

Dougr

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Gary T
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:18 PM

Doug and kat, I'll drink to it also. I believe the U.S. is most accurately described as a democratic republic, i.e. we vote for our representatives.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:27 PM

interesting how this thread has accumlated so many thoughts so quickly ... all I can say for sure is; ISSUES DON"T DEFINE US!

DougR defines himself as a conservative, and seems to believe very much as I do on the issues he listed (but I am not a member of the Republican party)... BillD defines himself as a Liberal, and seems to believe very much as I do on the issues he listed (but we may differ on gun control. If the labels we apply to ourselves and others are appropriate; how is this so?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 06:56 PM

Don't know Jed! Just don't know. I sure look forward to meeting you on May 21 at the Fiddler, though.

You sound a bit more conservative to me than liberal but there are both kinds in both parties, you know.

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:00 PM

Rick said he is all over the map. I want to see a song come of this. The GPS (Global Positioning System) for Politics..."you can have your very own, no longer depending on which way the wind blows to tell you which side of the fence you straddle!"**BG**

Oh, and belly up, me boyos! Next round is on me!

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:04 PM

I wished I lived in a world where I could be a conservative, with a status quo which I wanted to defend.

There's always going to be changes coming along, and a lot of them are for the worse, and fighting change is technically a conservative thing to do. So, where I live, anyone who tries to bring back Capital Punishment, or make it legal to own handguns, or give refugees food vouchers instead of money, or privatise the health service, or break up the London Tube system, or change the side of the road we drive on, is my enemy.

On the other hand there are a whole lot of changes I would support - I'd like to see fox-hunting outlawed, I'd like to see a maximum wage at a fairly low level, I'd like to see an end to the disastrous "war against drugs", I'd like to see a 15 mph speed limit in towns (for people on bikes and skates as well), the introduction of a Basic Income, the break-up of the United Kingdom...

And all those would mark me as Radical.

And there are some things where I suppose my views are liberal, which means saying there are two sides the question. (For example, abortion, where I do not think there is any moral "right to choose" - but that attempts by the authorities to penalise women who do choose to have abortions would be both wrong and ineffective.)

But I can't understand this weird (sorry) American terminology in which "liberal" is used to mean holding leftwing views (which in many countries would count as fairly rightwing). Being "liberal" surely just means that you don't think your opponents should be thrown in jail or shot? Which means most (unfortunately not all) Americans are "liberal", at least within America itself.

The point I'm making is that asking whether someone is conservative or radical is like asking whether they are big or small - it depends whether you are comparing them with a mouse or an elephant.

But then I suppose it's all just arbitrary terminology when you get down to it. In Russia these days "Liberal Democrat" is the title of a fascist party, and Communists are routinely described as "Conservatives". And a Republican means something rather different in Derry and in Dixie.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Mbo
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:12 PM

"I'm Conservative with a budget, Liberal with a meal..."

--Mbo

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 07:13 PM

Probably Jed, because the words have no meaning anymore except to make some political point as is the wont of our system. Within that system, we have established methodology for this particular means of government and it no longer makes a difference, except to somehow position oneself for acceptability by others.

We can talk and have opinions on a variety of issues and not follow what would be the "logical" assumptive order since each of us has had our experiences colored by the times and circumstances in which we have lived. I am always more troubled by the talk from everyone about freedoms as though they are the sole province of consevatives or liberals, Republicans or Democrats. The fact that we have continually given up freedom to governments or companies is proof that though we may talk a good line, "I'll shave my head for good health care." That is to say, what are we willing to give up to improve the quality of our individual lives? And are we all willing to play? Someone mentioned the "anarchy no-no." My gawd how awful that would be. Why someone could come along and take your stuff just because you didn't want to do it their way and wanted your way instead. 'Course that's pretty much what the IRS does now. Gee........

Responsibility is the key word that must accompany freedom and people of both sides and the middle of the political spectrum are loathe attach it. Without it "freedoms" are simply words without meaning. And frankly, I would submit that true freedom scares the hell out of us. But we love to think about it in personal terms. Once again I quote this.....by Jacques Ellul:

"The people will fancy an appearance of freedom. Illusion will be their native land."

Spaw

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST, No 2
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:38 PM

C'mon, we've had 'Court T.V., we've had real life car chases on prime time news.

When are we going to see on-line executions?

Guest No 2.

Not conservative at all, but giving you an insight into the future with them.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST, No 2
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 09:44 PM

C'mon, c'mon.
We've had 'Court T.V., we've had real life car chases and gun battles on prime time news.

When are we going to see on-line executions?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 00 - 11:15 PM

Thanks, Guest No 2, some levity in this thread was about due!

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ringer
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 05:53 AM

McGrath, you're illiberal! Can't we disagree on some political aspects without your calling me your enemy? Do you wish to rephrase your previous entry?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:28 AM

Never having to say you are sorry?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:42 AM

What frightens me is not that such a thoughtful and literate a group of human beans as this can't agree on clear definitions of these terms, as much as by the fact that so many people will cast their vote (and their lot) without thinking twice for or against people simply because they have one of these labels plastered to them by friends and/or foes.

Me? Like the late great Jimmie Rodgers "I wear my name (and political affiliation) on the tail of my shirt. . ."

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: sophocleese
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 09:45 AM

The example that Ontario is giving to world at the moment shows conservative = bully. A conservative is someone who believes that their right to swing their arms stops at your nose, unless they didn't notice you standing there in which case, if you get hit, it was your fault for not ducking, but why the hell should they have to be the ones looking where their arms are going? If everybody only worked hard, the same way they did (we had it tough, there were days when our incompetent day care providers didn't stop us from pouring blue paint on the small kid in class and then blamed US for the mess and made us apologize to the little crybaby) we would all be able to swing our arms with complete freedom and those that get hit are wimps, failures and burdens on society.

To be fair there are many people who used to vote conservative in this province that changed allegiance directly because of Mike Harris and his cronies. Their brand of conservatism was incompatible with his tactics and substitution of surface charm and cunning for social intelligence and responsibility.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 11:00 AM

I saw a bumper sticker today that said "CHARLSTON HESTON IS MY PRESIDENT." I wonder if this guy is one of those who wanted to hang Clinton for lying?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 12:19 PM

Nah, Kendall. Probably one of the one's who was jealous of Bubba being a babe magnet. By the way..after 20 serious posts, I'm allowing myself a "trivial thread creep moment". I thought Monica was gorgeous...not bright, but gorgeous. I'll go away now.

Rick

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 12:31 PM

Naw, Kendall, he was probably just an NRA member.

First I've heard that somebody wanted to hang Clinton, though.

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:10 PM

Oh, great, another Holywood actor for Prez....sure can pick 'em, NOT!

Rick! I am going to seriously have to question your taste in women! Monica...gorgeous??? Didja have on them funny glasses, again!?**BG**

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:19 PM

I wouldn't say she is gorgeous, but, I wouldn't kick her out of my bed. I did exagerate some, never hears anyone say they wanted to "hang" Clinton...apparently, he already is.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:22 PM

That movie "Matewan" shows one of the reasons I'm a Democrat. An old friend who lives in West (by god) Virginia says thats just how it was.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:31 PM

Great movie isn't it Kendall? The camp music scene mentioned above was well done, but the entire movie is quite compelling. We have an unfortunate tendency nowadays to learn pseudo-history through the movies, but "Matewan" stands out in its accuracy of portraying the times that did exist and the characters, though composite and fictionalized, are very real.

Spaw

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 04:41 PM

BaldEagle - "McGrath, you're illiberal! Can't we disagree on some political aspects without your calling me your enemy? Do you wish to rephrase your previous entry?"

Since I don't want to kill you or lock you up if we disagree, that means I'm reasonably liberal on the definition I gave. Doesn't mean you might not be my enemy. "Love your enemy" implies you've got to have a few enemies in the first place. Just that you don't need to hate them, even when you might be doing your level best to defeat them.

I take it that you're probably a radical on some of the points where I'm a conservative, which was where I used the word "enemy".

I suppose I could have said "adversary", on the lines of the old story about the new member of parliament referring to the people on the other side as "the enemy". "No" says the oldere MP - "they are your adversaries - your enemies are on this side, behind you." But then, on some of the issues I mentioned, the people I'd be against are "on my side", so the term "enemy" seems more appropriate. Anyway it's a word I prefer. Can you imagine Jesus saying "love your adversaries" - doesn't have the right ring to it.

But anyway the point I was making was that the terms "conservative" and "radical" are relative and partial. We are all mixture of the two things, depending on where we live, and when we live, and all minds of other things. (And my other point was that when people use "liberal" as if it was the opposite of "conservative" they are debasing the language. So are people (and there are a lot of them round the world, if not in America) who use it as if it was the opposite of "radical".

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Apr 00 - 06:57 PM

conservatives are people who want to defend the right of the individual unless they are asylum seekers in which case they want to bang them up in jail.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 12:24 AM

I think it would be a bit interesting to peruse this thread and see who did the most bashing of the other: Conservatives of Liberals, or Liberals of Conservatives. Without doing so, I'd bet a nickel the Liberals would win.

DougR

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 02:32 AM

To take Ickle Dorrit's point. Our Conservative, leader of the oppositions latest appeal to the 'mean spirited'. Inflaming a difficult situation for votes and political gain, by stating that all political asylum seekers be 'locked-up' pending rewiew of their claim.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:23 AM

Just a couple of penceworth from this side of the big pond. Conservative = right wing and Liberal = left. OK I know it is a bit simplistic, but with this in mind, let us look back 30 years. At this time the radical left had a great leader and master helmsman in the form of Mao Tse Tung, who at the time was leading the Cultural Revolution. How many people of my age, 48, and older, can truthfully state that they were not taken in by the propaganda of Mao's regime? How many of those who did accept the Maoist propaganda then feel shame at being so misled? Particularly in the light of the books "Life and Death in Shanghai" by Nien Chen and "Wild Swans" by Jung Chang. EXACTLY the same mistakes were made by the left in both the UK and the US during the thirties with Stalin. Also, in this country during the thirties, there was a movement towards disarmament that was led by the left DESPITE the obvious trouble brewing in Germany at the time. Mistakes like this are what makes me doubt the judgement of those on the left of the political spectrum. Sapper

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Brendy
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 03:57 PM

The American term 'liberal', I have difficulty in grasping.
Where I come from, Conservative is right wing - bordering at times on the fascist. Left wing/socialist is more or less always what it has been, and Liberals don't really know what they are, but like to think they do.

B.

BTW Was there a plane crash round your way, Kevin?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:35 PM

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,dwditty
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:00 PM

I grew up in a town where Kurt Vonnegut described the Democratic poll watchers and Republican poll watchers as both being Republicans. Nonetheless, a "conservative" represented everything that I rebelled against - most of which I am now. It's amazing what 30 or 40 years can do to wear a person down.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:22 PM

All I know is that I'm slightly in the red. Have no clue what conservative and liberal mean. I just vote for whoever and whatever I beleive is good for the people. It doesn't mean I'm right, though. Blessed be.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:38 AM

sound like a good plan, Amergin.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: mjm
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:03 PM

Nothing to add, folks, I'm socially and politically unaware. But I wanted to cause this thread back up to the surface. I told a friend abouth it and when he arrives, I'd like it to be readily visable. My directions here were sloopy but this one in particular has some really good contents. It amazes me how intelligent and funny some people can be all in the same thought pattern. Wow. m

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST, No.3
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:13 PM

We will soon put an end to that when we get in power!

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: kendall
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:08 AM

I dont understand how you can vote for the "best candidate" or for whatever is best for the country/people, without knowing anything about politics?

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: InOBU
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:16 AM

Shades of red,
My old friend Bertel Olman used to define radical marxist and liberal in the following way... most likely still does, I should drop in on him...
Liberal... has noticed one or two social problems, like save the whales, which if done, evil would be erradicated and the world perfect.
The radical knows that if you took all the liberal observations and rants and lumped them together, you would have a pretty good polical plan and the problem underlieing all these problems is something or other to do with the evils of capitolism.
The marxist knows the other two are generally right, but has the intelectual tools to understand why they are right and that we will likely never live in a Eutopia, but just envent better problems.
Best to all
Larry

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:45 AM

But Radical doesn't just mean left Radical, InOBU - you can have Radicals at any point on the political spectrum, insofar as there is a spectrum (it's a tempting and often useful metaphor, but it is just a metaphor). Nazism can in some ways be seen not so much as rightwing extremism, but as extreme Radicalism of the centre.

A Radical solution to a problem is to pull things up from the roots, and start all over again. There are times when that's what you need to do - but the crucial thing is knowing what kind of plants you want to plant when you've pulled up the ones that have grown wrong. Some people want top plant very nasty plants indeed.

Sapper 82's point about political misjudgements is valid, but applies across the board. The basic corrupting factor is the old saying "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". If you were in a barroom fight there might be some validity to that, but it is so dangerous. It's why you had people who can be reasonably described as "conservative" or for that matter "liberal" who in their time supported, encouraged and financed the most disgusting regimes, like that of Pinochet or even Hitler.

So far as the left is concerned, it is easy to see how, when you are engaged in a fight against people close at hand whom you can see to be vicious and dangerous, youn can be tempted to fool yourself that the people far away who send you words of encouragement, or who are also engaged in some kind of struggle against the same enemies are better than they really are.

Sometimes you have to take help from where you can get it - but you can never afford to trust people just because they help you. Which is very sad.

(And Brendy, yes there was a plane crash on the outskirts of Harlow a couple of days back, two light aeroplanes using a local airfield collided, and the people on board were killed. But all well away from me.)

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: GUEST,mary g
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:33 PM

someone wanted to know if anyone over the age of 48 was not taking in by Mao's stuff..

me and most of my friends.

mg

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 11:15 AM

"... and when you go carryin' pictures of Chairman Mao
you ain;t gunna make it with anyone, anyhow ..."

Mary, agreed! It seems John Lennon was not amused by the Chairman either.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 03:37 PM

To McGrath of Harlow; My enemy's enemy must be my friend, We've made that same mistake time and again. And each time we make it, we learn pretty soon, When you sup with the Devil, you need a long spoon.

And when you're done with your words of betrayal and cant, When the pacifist says "Peace", who stops the Tyrant?

Sapper

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 05:14 PM

My enemy's enemy must be my friend,
We've made that same mistake time and again.
And each time we make it, we learn pretty soon,
When you sup with the Devil, you need a long spoon.
And when you're done with your words of betrayal and cant,
When the pacifist says "Peace", who stops the Tyrant?

Well, that looks better with the lne breaks - I thought for a moment you were being rude to me friend Sapper! Not that I'd be with you on the last too lines, but that's another discussion. Siding with Stalin or Pinochet, for example, aren't exactly pacifist attitudes.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Ditchdweller
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 12:37 PM

Well the Bloody line breakes were there when I posted it!!!! Sapper

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: mjm
Date: 23 Apr 00 - 09:40 PM

Kendall, was that question directed to me? The last time I voted in a presidental election, was when Ross P. was running against you-know-who. (I voted for Ross) It was also the first time had ever voted. Shame shame on me. Alas, my worst fear was to have "Them" get my number, so to speak, and then be called for jury duty. That's how it works, here in Connecticut. Well it happened, and I suspect that my employer paid a hansome amount to get me out of that jar of pickles. It won't happen again, because in this life, I will not stand in judgement of another human being. That's that.

Peace, m

Subject: Is Dubya 'conservative'?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 04:31 PM

7 October 2007
"Paul Krugman writes that contrary to those who would say that Bush strayed from right-wing principles, he is in fact a true Conservative.

* For example, people claim to be shocked that Mr. Bush cut taxes while waging an expensive war. But Ronald Reagan also cut taxes while embarking on a huge military buildup.

* People claim to be shocked by Mr. Bush's general fiscal irresponsibility. But conservative intellectuals, by their own account, abandoned fiscal responsibility 30 years ago.

* People claim to be shocked by the way the Bush administration outsourced key government functions to private contractors... Yet back in 1993, Jonathan Cohn...explained that "under Reagan and Bush, the ranks of public officials necessary to supervise contractors have been so thinned that the putative gains of contracting have evaporated."

* People claim to be shocked by the Bush administration's general incompetence. But disinterest in good government has long been a principle of modern conservatism. In The Conscience of a Conservative,, Barry Goldwater wrote that "I have little interest in streamlining government or making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size."

* People claimed to be shocked at the Bush Justice Department, making a mockery of the Constitution, issued a secret opinion authorizing torture despite instructions by Congress and the Courts that the practice should stop." But:

* People claim to be shocked at the Bush adminisration's efforts to disenfranchise minority groups..." But:

* People claim to be shocked at the Bush administratoin's attempts- which for a time were all too successful - to intimidate the press..." But:

* People claim to be shocked at the Bush administration's attempts to equate dissent with treason." But:

* Above all, people claim to be shocked by the Bush administration's authoritarianism, its disdain for te rule of law." But:

"Now as they survey the wreckage of their cause, conservatives may aks themselves: "Well, how did we get here" They may tell themselves: "This is not my beautiful Right." They may ask themselves: "My God, what have we done?"

"But their movement is the same as it ever was. And Bush is movement conservatism's true, loyal heir."

Bush, the Standard Bearer

(By the way, I miss Rick. Nothing new here)

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 05:47 PM

I would define conservative as: having a fondness for established things and a resistance to innovation; cautious; traditional; old-fashioned; wanting to keep things "the way they used to be".

That's what the word actually means, aside from the political labelling that goes on about it all the time.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:22 PM

And it all depends on how things are where and when you are. A Cuban conservative today would be pro-Castro.

Subject: RE: How would 'YOU' define 'conservative'?
From: John Hardly
Date: 30 Oct 07 - 06:27 PM

cool. How often do you score the 100th post on a seven year old thread?