BS: Oops (No WMDs in Iraq)

Subject: BS: Oops
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:17 PM

U.S. Wraps Up Search for Banned Weapons in Iraq

"Charles Duelfer, the CIA special adviser who led the ISG's weapons search, has returned home and is expected next month to issue a final addendum to his September report concluding that prewar Iraq had no WMD stockpiles, officials said...

... The Duelfer report concluded that Iraq had no stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons and its nuclear program had decayed before last year's U.S.-led invasion."

Oops

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:21 PM

Oh well.

Better safe than sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:21 PM

Gee, what a surprise.

I wonder how many people will now post that the invasion was always about terrorism; that it was never about WMDs. I love to watch history being rewritten.

Good post, Carol. Thank you (from a guy whose mind you helped change--I supported those Washington bastards at first. Cheap trash in the Capitol.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:23 PM

So next time, we shouldn't be sure, right?

I don't want to take that chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: curmudgeon
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:46 PM

Tell that to the dead, Martin

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: PoppaGator
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 04:52 PM

"Better safe than sorry."

Martin, don't you mean "better war than peace"? I'm sure that's how Haliburton et. al. look at it.

But not the families of dead and wounded service members, nor all the "collateral" brown people who have been, and continue to be, slaughtered.

Yeah, I know, the insurgents are doing most of the killing by this time. But would it be happening if the US had minded its own business and remained focused on the conflict with Al-Quida?

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Wesley S
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:00 PM

Yeah - screw the rule of law. We're the biggest kids on the block so lets just take what we want - right ?

It wasn't right in the third grade and it isn't right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:10 PM

So what was it really all about....12% of the worlds oil resources?
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:29 PM

More like a family feud, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:31 PM

Well gol danged! Say it ain't so...

Lets see. We attacked Iraq because Condi Rice said that if we didn't we'd wake up one morning with a mushroom cloud over our heads...

Wrong.

Then it was that Osama and Saddam were all buddied up...

Wrong.

And the 3rd (and last) reason given in Bush's lead up to the invasion was that Saddam had all these WMD's and was gonna attack us with them...

Now that's wrong, too?

Well, I reckon we can bring the boys (and gals) home now. Right?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: GUEST,Sleepless Dad
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 05:32 PM

Nope - Now we're waist deep in the big muddy.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Bert
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:02 PM

...Better safe than sorry...

Yeah, what do a few (or tens of thousands of) dead ragheads matter, it's not as if they're AMERICANS, or even human for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:11 PM

Martin honey, how many countries do you think we will have to invade in order to be truly safe?

That was a truly stupid remark.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:25 PM

Hans Blix ,the head of the UN weapons inspection team has suggested that representatives of the US govt should present their findings on Iraqi WMDs, and their apologies to a full session of the UN.

THe Americans and British were keen enough to present their manufactured intelligence to the UN before the war , so now they should be made to bite the bullet...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:37 PM

Hans may be getting some concrete shoes and boat ride if he keeps that up, Ake. These Bushites don't like no ctriticism or suggestions that make sense...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:38 PM

"The US and the world are safer now with Saddam out of power" is the mantra, repeated AGAIN today.

Nonsense! We are MUCH more likely to be attacked from more directions now that we (Bush) have stirred up this hornets nest...and we are many billions of dollars poorwith no end in sight. Generals are speaking out, saying we are stretching the military to the limit trying to fight an almost invisible enemy in Iraq. We have few real friends and LOTS more enemies, and National Guard troops on the 3rd rotation.

better safe than sorry? crap! Better be SURE before we go chasing will-o-the-wisps in the sand again!

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 08:58 PM

Channel 4 News in the UK did a report from Fallujah last night.
They sent in a camera team, with and Iraqi doctor doing the voice over.

Fallujah was almost deserted,with its inhabitants who had fled the fighting,living in squalid camps.
The city had been totally destroyed, hardly a building was intact.
In some of the ruined houses, the cameras showed whole families massacred in their beds,the bodies left to rot more than a month after the battle.
The displaced inhabitants of Fallujah will be ineligible to vote in the forthcoming "democratic" elections...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:06 PM

It's just the beginning of the end for the USA as a 'Great Power". it will take quite some time, and what worries me is the large stockpile of WMDs that the greatest rogue nation in the world possesses....

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Teresa
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:06 PM

How many WMDs does Saudi Arabia have? How about Egypt? How about Isreal?

Woops, those are other cans of worms.

One man's ally is another man's terrorist. And that even changes from year to year! Absolute black-hearted money- and powergrubbing arrogance.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:27 PM

Yes , but are we not all complicite in the atrocities committed by our governments.
Half of America voted for Bush,and although the war is unpopular in Britain,protest has died away to a mere whisper.
It appears that we have become immune to the effects of war, and right or wrong no longer comes into the equation.

If we are not to be completely swamped by the "forces of darkness",we must stir ourselves and protest in any way we can,not only against the war ,but against the brutal system which is the real cause of suffereing throughout the word.

G8 Summit, Gleneagles Hotel, Perthshire, Scotland,July 2005

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:30 PM

"Hans may be getting some concrete shoes and boat ride if he keeps that up . . .".

In Montreal, that was referred to as a verticle trip down the river.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:38 PM

Thankee, brucie, fir a little Canadaian education though I didn't think folks up there did that kinda stuff...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: pdq
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:39 PM

To get facts 'straight from the horse's mouth', as it t'were (or for most Mudcatters, another part of the horse's anatomy!) you can tune-in to ABC's 20-20 this Friday. Barbara Walters will be broadcasting an interview of President Bush and this subject will be addressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Peace
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 09:43 PM

The time Martin spoke of--when the US presented 'evidence' of a terrorist/Iraq connection--necessitated that Americans support the actions of its government and military. I agreed with both Martin--and disagreed with the decision of my own country not to support the Iraq invasion--because it looked like it was a 'must do' think. That is why I will not jump on Martin, DougR or others that still support the US action. I do not mean to be patronizing when I say I understand. I do. However, my view today is that lotsa people got hoodwinked--good and bad people, no matter. What does matter is that kids are getting killed for bullshit reasons. It's time that we all demanded they no longer have to die on the altar of our vanity.

The garbage who falsified info leading to the deaths of kids in the military deserve to be tried, convicted and shot. It won't bring the dead back, but it may set a tone for future generations: people who do this stuff WILL be held accountable. Waist deep in the Big Muddy indeed! And waist deep in the deaths of thousands upon thousands of civilians: children, women and men. There is no longer ANY honour in this. IMO.

BM

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 10:04 PM

Yes Bruce, but you are a fair minded guy and not a bitter old cynic like some of us who were against this war right from the outset.

The difference between you and the likes of Doug and Martin, is that you are capable of independent thought, are able to understand the evidence of your own eyes and ears, and care deeply about injustice,especially against helpless women and children.

As my old pal used to say "the man who never made a mistake,never made anything" and it takes a big man to admit he may have been wrong.

Take it easy on yourself my friend ...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 10:13 PM

What Ake said, brucie... As one who fought to stop the invasion during the Bushite sales job, I respect the heck out of you... I really do...

Sniff...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Teresa
Date: 12 Jan 05 - 10:22 PM

Brucie, honesty and integrity count a *lot* in my book. Thanks for telling it like it is.

XX
Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:09 AM

I haven't forgotten that so many of us were CERTAIN that there were WMD's in Iraq, including a lot of European nations and a lot of anti-war (let sanctions and diplomacy take their course) folks. And I'm very unhappy with both our 'intelligence' and the presentation of that 'intelligence' before the country and the world. I was paying attention, and Bush, Cheney, Rummy et. al. were talking as if they'd seen the satellite snaps, which I think was their intention.

There is no doubt that funny stuff was going on. Iraq had used poison gas on Kurds, the UN inspectors had documented the movement of centrifugal uranium concentrators. So we are led to believe that Iraq had used all the gas they had? How were we supposed to know? (Yeah, I know, satellites, spies, and the U.N.)

Calling allied actions atrocities is wrong. You can question motivations, you can question strategy and tactics all with justification, but there ain't been any atrocities. (So a nasty jailer man wanted to 'walk the dog....") There have certainly been atrocities from the irregulars who, as an example, have been making examples of their own people, taping their bloody executions, then posting them on the web.

Pres. Bush has some problems with expressing himself. PM Tony Blair has been eloquent in explaining our actions there.

AND

What's this say about IRAQI intelligence, both their ability to gather information and their ability to make good decisions? They could have done a lot more before the war in order to forestall this kind of activity. I think this points out that Saddam was not just an evil vicious f*k but a STUPID evil vicious f*k. And he had the rest of his people so cowed or ignorant that they had no way to deal effectively with the outside world. They had it coming.

Whether or not they had it coming from us, yeah it's a point of debate.

NEXT:

Now how about Kim Jong Il? We're already in the neighborhood.....

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:22 AM

robo -

They could have done a lot more before the war in order to forestall this kind of activity. I think this points out that Bush was not just an evil vicious f*k but a STUPID evil vicious f*k. And he had the rest of his people so cowed or ignorant that they had no way to deal effectively with the outside world. They had it coming.

This is exactly how most of the world views American Intelligence at this time.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:47 AM

Peace, love, dove.

And all you Arab terrorists in training out there, we're watching.

You are next.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 11:51 AM

We don't care what bitches think.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: DougR
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:03 PM

So, Bill D., you believe the old adage, "leave the sleeping dog lie," would have solved the terrorist problem? That has been tried since the 1970's but they didn't continue to "lie" did they?

There is no doubt that the leaders of every major country in the world thought Saddam had WPM (how many times have we gone through this one?)including George W. Bush, Tony Blair, et al. Evidently, they did not.

If anyone is to blame for the Iraqi war, it is Saddam. All he had to do was allow unimpared inspections by the U.N. and adhere to the U.N. Resolutiions and there would have been no war. He brought it upon himself, and unfortunately, it is the Iraqi people who have suffered as a result.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:04 PM

We don't care what Martin Gibson thinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 12:51 PM

I want to modify my previous posted paragraph about atrocities. Having just read the New York Times article reviewing books coming out on the prison scandal, it is established that the problem on the part of US treatment of prisoners was and is endemic and serious. If it happened to me personally it would indeed be something I would remember as an atrocity, and the remark about 'walk the dog' in retrospect was callous on my part. The reason not to engage in torture is not so much that is generally ineffective, which it is, but what it does to us.

I hold to my comments on Saddam and disagree with Dianavan's use of my comment to characterize the US President. I want to repeat something I've said elsewhere and elsewhen: Bush is the leader we've got. The Islamic fascist terror problem is real. Rather than tear down the leader you've got, you work with him and his crew, but fight the errors of their ways as best you can.

I would respectfully ask dianavan to be specific in what more they could have done. I can say what more the UN could have done. It is much much easier to demonstrate what the UN has not done: In Rwanda, in Darfur, in Iraq.

However, I also believe that while we should make an effort to work with the President and PM we've got, we should also work with the UN we've got. While I believe the UN is rife with corruption and some of the worst cut-throats in the world, cutting off the UN on our part would be bad in the long term.

It's a nasty old world, and Bush, for better or worse, is approaching it like a marshall going into Dodge City. And that's not all wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:01 PM

Doug...you are simply evading the point ...again.... "let sleeping dogs lie" is a fine idea when the dogs are locked in a yard and well watched, and you never SAW them bury any dangerous bones!

I never said Saddam should have been 'left alone' to do evil forever, nor have I said or suggested that terrorism should not be fought in the right place. I never said a WORD when our forces were pursuing Osama in Afghanistan, and I would have cheered if they'd caught him...etc..

But THIS WAR in Iraq was a lame, careless, misguided pretense at 'fighting terrorism'...At the time it was started, the terrorists that we wanted were NOT connected to Iraq, and it has been **SHOWN** since that the information that Saddam had serious weapons was flawed and suspect, even then!!!!!

And...even if Iraq had been proved to have WMDs, we (meaning Bush & Co.) chose the wrong way to go about doing anything about it!. We had little support for that invasion, because most other nations could see that the risk, when balanced against the weak evidence, was dangerous.

If we were in this current situation, with billions being spent and thousands of soldiers being killed because a Democrat had invaded Iraq on such shakey evidence, you would be howling for his skin!

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:09 PM

Dougie,

You forget to take your memory pill again?

You gloss over the fact that Saddam was cooperating with the inspectors when Bush couldn't stand yet another day without having *his* war. He was like a 17 year old kid who was about to loose his virginity when it came wanting *his* war and like *now*...

Yeah, even Hanz Blix was giving favorable reports on almost a daily basis prior to the invasion. Scott Ritter who was a member of the inspection team in the late 90's was telling eveyone that would listen that Saddam didn't have these scarey weapons. Scott Ritter was blackballed by every corporate media source in America. We anti-war folks had better intellegence than what Cheney (who made daily trips over to the CIA and FBI offices to push folks around) made them tell Bush. Cheney had allready made up his mind what he wanted the Intellegence folks to say... Now, the BUsh folks are using the "executive priviledge" to cover up Cheney's role in fabricating the "BIG LIE"... Just as they have been doing over the Cheney/Enron so called "Energy Policy"...

Well, Bush and the neocons got what Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz has wanted going back to 1992 and I hope they still enjoying it because every day I run into more and more of my friends who no longer think it was such a good idea...

To twist on a line from an old Jethro Tull song : It was a new war yesterday, it's an old war now...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:32 PM

And as far as this upcoming election thing goes, it looks like the Bushies have managed to start a holy war between the Shi-ites and the Sunnis. That's what this whole insurgency thing is about. The Shi-ites are in the majority, and the Sunnis might well have cause to be apprehensive about the outcome of any "democratic" election in Iraq. No wonder their trying to stop it.

Old Middle East hands could (and did) predict something like this, but the Bush Administration, with its hubris and abyssmal ignorance, insisted on blundered right on in.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Grab
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:36 PM

you believe the old adage, "leave the sleeping dog lie," would have solved the terrorist problem? That has been tried since the 1970's but they didn't continue to "lie" did they?

When was this tried, exactly? Iran? Iraq? Grenada? Panama? Cuba? Vietnam? Laos? Cambodia? Afghanistan? Chile? The last thing the US did in any of these cases was let them "lie" - instead, the US actively dug itself in and either funded repressive regimes as its pawns (several of whom subsequently turned against the US) or sent in its troops. Every one of these has turned out to be a fuckup of massive proportions. And every one has been directly caused by the US government's foreign policy of intervention that's been running for the last 40-50 years.

In the last 30 years, the only successes I can think of that the US military has had were Bosnia and Gulf War I, and those were achieved together with UN forces from many other countries, and with a UN mandate. If you can name any more, please let me know.

There is no doubt that the leaders of every major country in the world thought Saddam had WPM

Except they told the world they had evidence that Saddam had WMDs. Since they now can't produce any evidence, they were clearly lying through their teeth when they said that, weren't they?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: GUEST,George Bush
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 01:41 PM

hello I no I am a stoopid evil f*ck - that is what yoo wood like me too say.
Butt I shull nevar say this becos I am the big cheese in this world and I rule america and I am the best.
It is my world and if I want too f*ck it up then I can.
Mwahahahaha.

and Toni Bleer is up my ass in moor ways than wun.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Teresa
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:13 PM

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Nononoonononononononono, I am not "working withhim". I ccan think for myself, thank you, and I don't need any "president" to do it for me. I didn't vote for him, and he is not *my* president. He has done dangerous deeds. Not in my name.   Authoritarians and militant ignoramuses and bigots don't speak for me. I live here because my family is here and I love this land. That is the *only* reason.

Teresa

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:15 PM

If anyone is to blame for the Iraqi war, it is Saddam.

DougR:

Saddam was provocative, but there is only one decision point that resulted in the war goping hot. That decuision was made solely and only, in the final analysis, by Little Bush. He ignored advice to the contrary and accepted advice supporting it; he ignored the moral cost and exagerrated any moral support he could find even if it was false. He ignored the costly consequernces and projected false pictures as to how inexpensive it would be. Immersing himself in this fraudulent aura of lies and exaggerations and ignoral, he pulled the trigger and sent 1500 Americans tot heir deaths, over 100,000 Iraquis to their deaths, and thousnads of others on both sides into lives of ruination. And he has no regrets.

He has NO regrets. "I do not regret bringing ruination into thousands of lives because it was a good idea at the time...". The man is a leather-headed fascist with the conscience of coprolite.

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 02:57 PM

Go suck coprolite, Amos

Take coprolite up your ass, Amos. I'm sure it won't burn.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:13 PM

It's only mid afternoon Mudcat time and Martin Gibson has posted 27 times already, all posts spewing hate. He's really piss off. That's because he didn't get any last night. Or the night before. Or the night before that. Or..........

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:19 PM

Guest Dog Genes

It's not for that reason. I have to give you something to do today like count my posts.

slow day at the office, today. but not as desparate as your actions.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: GUEST,Diogenes
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:46 PM

It took me about 30 seconds to count your posts, Martin Gibson. Anyone who has been around Mudcat for a few months knows how to do it if they have a brain and pay attention.

As a philosopher, a cynic, and a chicken inspector, studying featherless bipeds like you is my businss.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: *Laura*
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:48 PM

Miaw!

Subject: RE: BS: Oops
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Jan 05 - 04:53 PM

You lick your balls too kindly Dog Genes. Can you reach around and sniff your butt, also?

I'm having a great time on the Mudcat today. feel especially spunky.

What are you doing here today? Your a philosopher, alright. anyone can analyze their own navel. Do you have a beard and are you fat?

Subject: RE: BS: Oops (No WMDs in Iraq)
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:09 AM

better safe than sorry

Benjamin Franklin said something a little bit wiser than that:

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.

It is the tragedy of our times that a nation founded on such noble principles should have fallen into the hands of people who, like Martin Gibson, compensate for their inadequacies with swagger and bombast.

Robomatic, DougR and others cannot get themselves off the hook by saying "We were not alone. Everyone else thought there were WMDs too." First the point has been well made that many people thought no such thing and said so at the time. Second, those governments and people who did think there were WMDs thought so on the strength of so-called "intelligence" - almost exclusively of the US/UK variety.

And is there no end to Martin Gibson's hollow bluster? For instance: And all you Arab terrorists in training out there, we're watching.

Just like he was watching when Arab terrorists trained for 9-11, right under his nose in the US? These Arab terrorists must be quaking with fear. Unless they've noticed (unlike Martin) that the US is already stretched to the limit, failing abysmally to make its writ run in Iraq and Afghanistan. (Sure the CIA are scouting in Iran at present preparatory to some inaccurate bombing from high altitude, but it's a feeble sort of terrorist who would be fazed by civilian deaths in Iran.)

Subject: RE: BS: Oops (No WMDs in Iraq)
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 08:14 AM

"First the point has been well made that many people thought no such thing and said so at the time. "


EXCEPT that NONE of them EVER asked Saddam to bother to comply with the UN resolution, in order to prevent the war.

You know, the LAST CHANCE that the UN declared him to be in NON-COMPLIANCE with.


So, I hold all of those people mentioned in the quote to be at least as guilty as Bush of causing the war- IF NOT MORE SO. After all, Bush can plead ignorance. Just ask Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: Oops (No WMDs in Iraq)
From: kendall
Date: 17 Jan 05 - 02:19 PM

Well said, Bobert. There were no WMD's and 7 years of inspections should have been enough.His own people told him there were no WMD's, but he didn't want to hear it. The whole thing was based on a lie; Bush wanted and planned to invade Iraq before he became president, but, enough people believed his lies to get him where he is, and we will live with his pile of shit long after he is gone. We may never recover the respect we once enjoyed around the world, but there are those who will say, "So what? we are big enough so we don't have to care what the world thinks." Arrogance is contageous. So is stupidity.