BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out

Subject: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Janie
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:40 PM

My parents, sister and I are starting to talk about what we might need to do and consider if the whole economic ball of wax does melt. Not in an alarmist way, but just a general discussion of our options as a family. My parents both grew up during the Depression, and their experience has largely informed the budding dialogue among us.

We are a small, but close family that gets along quite well. If need be, we could combine resources and households - not seamlessly or without bumps - but with good grace and optimism that among us, we could take care of ourselves and each other. So, while we are all concerned, we are not frightened or excessively worried about our ability to keep a roof over our collective heads and food on the table, in the event worse comes to worst.

We ARE concerned about our collective ability to insure adequate health care for all of us if the bottom falls out, but especially for my elderly parents, who are already finding it a challenge to afford the medical care and medications they need.

We recognize we are fortunate to have the functional, resourceful, close-knit family that we do, and are mindful that our experience is not universal.

I'm curious to know if others are having similar conversations.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 11:48 PM

I'm being more diligent in what I sell on eBay. Trying to keep a supplemental income coming in for as long as it will come.

I've had that thought about my neighborhood, though. Most of my neighbors are retired and on fixed incomes. I think we need to have a talk this fall about what each of us will plant in our veggie gardens next spring, and about how we can assist each other regarding things like driving (share rides) and general assistance (ie., house repairs) when needed.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Bee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:18 AM

I so very much hope that ordinary lives will not become so difficult, although it is of course important to consider. I was reading several articles today about the state of Canada's economy, and while it is true that we will take a hit with the rest of the world if the American economy completely tanks, it will be only a secondary shock - we are in a lucky position wrt to debt, well-placed to move on pretty smoothly, by all accounts, despite our economic ties with the US. And since Canadians by nature tend to be a a little on the pessimistic side, I think this is likely true.

I have wondered sometimes if Americans can see themselves as outsiders see them. It has been like watching a train fast approaching a curve you're sure it can't make. You can't do anything about it, just hope no one gets hurt too badly.

Good luck, neighbours, and I hope that train gets slowed right down in the very near future.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:23 AM

We've had the conversation, but we did not get far into it, because a real collapse is hard to envision when you have had orderly supply lines all your life.

A

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:45 AM

Yes, we have discussed it & my wife does not agree with me & my siblings. She thinks it's a bad idea to steal a heavily armed Navy vessel & start hijacking oil tankers just outside US waters & ranson them off to their owners. We figured that paper money won't be worth the wheel barrow you carry it in so we'll be looking for the deeded rights to their overseas beachfront properties, preferably located on large South Pacific islands. We'll also be taking all of our canned goods with US.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Bert
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:10 AM

Barry, I nearly pissed myself reading your post (psst!!! if you DO start a hijacking business, give me a call, I'm on your side.).

As a WWII baby I am used to rationing and people growing cabbages in window boxes.

As SRS says, we will certainly be planting a veggie garden next year, crash or not.

You're right Amos, a full collapse is hard to envision, but there will certainly be a lot of hardship for everyone to recover from that past eight years.

Another thing to consider is that we have to work together with our neighbors to overcome whatever adversity we face.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:57 AM

Well....We've all bought into this shitheap, to a larger or smaller extent.
Those who tried to sound a warning were accused of "negativity"
We still discuss Obama and McCain as if either can solve anything.
Both are completely powerless...simply window dressing.

The bottom HAS fallen out and the sooner we come to terms with that the better.

Sure , a taxpayer bailout may work for a few months...a year? but how long can the taxpayer continue to support a section of the community which robs them blind.
Capitalism needs optimism and belief that the machine is capable of delivering, but people have looked under the hood and they don't like what they see. A clapped out, leaky, polluting engine, pulling the worlds biggest overloaded trailer....and running on EMPTY......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Paul Burke
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:29 AM

I wonder what the Romano- British were discussing in 400AD? The Roman Empire seemed set to last forever; within 10 years Britain had fallen into the Dark Ages. The Western Roman Empire itself lasted less than a hundred years more, though Byzantium was effective for another 700 or so.

One major problem with a "bailout" is that the assets have been wildly overvalued. Eother the value has to drop, or inflation has to catch up with them, so the main effect of a crude financial get-out-of-jail-free could be hyperinflation. Oh, and forget about that pension.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:32 AM

They accused you of 'negativity'.

The bastards! Whatever CAN they have meant?

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:39 AM

You ought to join the Jehovah's witnesses, Ake.

You'd be brilliant at turning up on peoples doorsteps saying, the world is in awful state at the moment. Have you ever wondered what it can all mean? Where is it all leading?

Don't let your daughter wear tight jeans, or have a blood transfusion and you'll be 'quids in' with Jesus. Can I sell you Watchtower? Its a great magazine and will answer all your questions.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:51 AM

Thanks Al....That made even me smile!!
Still.... I suppose most people would rather see a Jehovah's Witness on their doorstep, than a New Labour canvasser....Eh?....:0)

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:41 AM

According to Dennis Kucinich, the bottom doesn't have to fall out...

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/9/29/is_this_the_united_states_congress

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:19 AM

Barry - make it a mano o' war and we'll all sing shanties as we force our hostages to bail.

I brought it up at work and suggested we could all livetogether like on Walton's Mountain. From a cubicle far away came "I'd rather live under a bus."

My family - Nana + her 8 children and their families all lived in one huge house and survived the depression. They had to pool all their salaries. My mother worked for the phone company - meaning she went to work every day and if there was a console free, she worked and got paid. If not...

I am prepared to live in the "It is." and manage.

Maybe the House of the Setting Sun will happen after all.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:22 AM

What I always wonder is, if the market lost a trillion dollars yesterday, who made the trillion?

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:25 AM

"preferably located on large South Pacific island"

Personally, if you insist on living on Pacific islands, I say you either gotta be about 200 ft above current sea level or be able to breathe underwater...

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:37 AM

Barry, keep an eye on the pirating of the ship carrying Soviet Tanks and ammo. It is a rich source of practical experience you could use.



What was that thread name last summer "surviving a Depression'?



A new hobo society could evolve that would need food chores and shelter in churches and private homes.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 08:50 AM

I agree with Dick G. I wonder where that trillion went....was it just on paper, or did that amount move from one set of hands to another.

I KNOW that if one bank buys another bank for 3 Billion, someone in the bought bank is gonna be pretty comfortable, no matter what happens to the depositors.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:09 AM

Yesterday billions of trades sold their shares at a loss which means they bought high and sold low. The money they lost can be added up to a trillion.2 dollars.

A relatively small 40 million trades were made while the value of the shares were going up.

Both Google and Apple are now at half of their all time high value.

The loss of money is real to the people who sold.

The people who did not sell but have a colection of shares in a money market account are now holding a less valued portfolio but can wait for value to someday return before cashing in.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

Where the trillion went?

Most of it went to the people who, six weeks or six months or a year ago (or whenever), sold the stock to those who sold it yesterday.   Some of will go to those who sold short in the last few weeks or so.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Barry Finn
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:35 AM

Donuel, "New Hobo Society"?
See the thread on tent cities? They're becoming the new home grown population in the counntry's public parks. It's (Hobo Society) already here. It's been been here for awhile & it's just growing faster.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:42 AM

We're keeping our payments current and cutting back (have been for some time now) on what we buy. I'll be planting a garden along the back fence next Spring, veggies and things, and I'm thinking of some berry bushes as well. (God help the golfer who helps himself!)

We've got enough in T-bills to pay off the mortgage and have some left over and we have some small savings other than that. My wife started collecting Social Security (right....), I've got a very, very small VA pension (tax free!), and I've got to get the papers for the state pensions I'm eligible for filed. At least for now my job has some pretty decent medical benefits, and at least for now those are not taxed.

I've got firearms and ammuntion, not to shoot looters with, but I can hunt for meat if I must. I also have a bow and arrows as well as fishing gear. And like other folks out here I'm putting a few cans of food aside every time I go to the store.

There a two fireplaces in the house and enough wood around that we could get by -- it might not be hickory, ash, or oak but it'll burn.

Lots of folks out here are doing the same things.

And we're all contributing to the Food Bank, Goodwill, St. Vincent de Paul, and Deseret Industries. You never know when YOU might need help.

It helps that I grew up poor....

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:10 PM

From CarolC's link:

"REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: This is a copy of the bill which will provide for a $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. It has provisions in it where it talks about helping homeowners, but when you read the fine print, you see it has language like "may" instead of "shall" and "encouraging" instead of "mandating" help for the millions of homeowners who are worried right now about whether they're going to lose their home. There's no help for them in this.


"So what we have here is a rescue plan that essentially gives all the speculators a bailout and puts the bad debts in the custody of the government. The president of the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank has said that this plan could create a fiscal chasm, says that the problem isn't tight monetary policy, it's the reckless behavior of some of these investors who have now found themselves in a position where a government bailout is going to help reward their bad behavior."

I have a couple of hillside acres in Oregon that, if needs must, I can retire to and raise my own food. Of course, it's 20 miles or more from any family I have there. But we could set up lots of tents there and have lots of music parties. :)

Isn't it nice that most of our instruments don't require electricity?

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: heric
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM

The best way I can grasp the "where is that trillion dollars now" question, which is surely too simplistic, is: It seems to me that when you buy stocks you are buying paper promises with uncounted intermediaries between you and the promisor. The promise is to grow corporate profits and plow value into the stock with minimal waste and fraud. I think the *bulk* of the value is in perceived future value (herd mentality), with some smaller part being a more objective, verifiable accounting value.

So Uncle D must be right that the money went to those who sold before everyone lost collective confidence in the future. The money still exists, in their hands (with its separate, smaller issues in the promise of the federal government in backing that paper and preserving its value relative to bread and milk.)

It's awfully hard to perceive true value in those promises of future performance in comparison to a few acres of land in Oregon.

With expectations smashed ("history shows you will earn 10% per year!"), and the boomer productive years almost past, it hard to see the confidence in future value resurging for a decade at least.

It's time for me to start buying, since I can wait 10 or 15 years.

I know a guy who sold his home in 2006, and is still waiting to buy again. So I guess he is holding a few hundred thousand dollars of the money that investors in mortgage-backed securities THOUGHT THEY owned.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Bee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:06 PM

I've lived really poor in the past. There have been times when I lived on nothing but nervous optimism. Enough such times that some nights I slide into our very comfortable bed, in our own nice little house with a feeling of utter luxury and gratitude.

When I didn't have a job, I did a lot of bartering, trading skills for food or goods, and a lot of one or two day jobs. I knew which friends and relatives could be counted on for a bed if things completely went south. I never once ended up on welfare (though a couple of times I should have; I may have recovered quicker).

Pooling resources is always a good plan in adverse times. One winter, living in the country, I was jobless and had two neighbours in the same predicament. We would gather at the home of whoever had coffee that day, bring along a little brunch food if we had something, brainstorm on what we could do to get out of our poverty, trade rumours of jobs, projects, available resources, and play backgammon while the snow piled deeper outside. We helped each other through a bad winter, kept ourselves sane and optimistic, and made a little money through our pooled ideas.

I have more confidence about my ability to survive poverty and hard times now, and I always have a worst-case plan stewing in the back of my brain, and I know other people (friends and relations) with the same kinds of plans, like Janie and SRS and Sinsull. I think knowing who you can really share resources with is important; whose plans mesh with your own and even are interdependent.

One good thing about medical care: doctors need vegetables too, and quite a few other things. Hospitals? Well, I'm damn glad we have public health care.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:17 PM

Bee:

Great story6. Well done on pulling out of all that!


A

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: heric
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:20 PM

Almost exactly at the time I was writing my musing above, FolkieDave was explaining it more clearly and put it on the Fifth Joke Thread of 2008.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Bee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:37 PM

Amos, more dumb luck involved than real planning, often as not. One advantage I think I have is the ability to recognize an option when I see it, and a positive talent for being able to bullshit my way into situations I really shouldn't be able to handle. I got into the pasteup/graphics/layout for small publications business by talking pure air to the publisher about my ability to do the job, then learned desktop publishing software having never laid a finger on a computer, and took on writing ad copy and business articles as well. Did that for four years. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:38 PM

We paid off our consumer debt and accelerated payments on our mortgage. Fortunately, we both have good jobs -- the Canadian Forces isn't going out of business any time soon -- and good relations with our siblings. If things completely go south, as it were, we are more likely to be among the helpers than the helped, but I have abandoned my fantasies of moving to a less stressful climate than that of the Ottawa Valley until we see how things shake out.

Watch and shoot, as we say in the army ...

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: GUEST,Bob Ryszkiewicz
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:43 PM

Guard your thoughts...

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Janie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 01:52 PM

I've been hard up, but never poor, and I have always had the cushion of family that I knew I could fall back on if it became necessary.

By choice, I have had the experience of living for several years in tents, a travel trailer or out of the back of a pick-up truck with a topper on it. I know I value running water and a flush toilet. Hot water is nice when you can get it. Everything else is frosting on the cake. I am no more or less satisfied with my life now than I was then.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:06 PM

Time to tell the truth people--folkies have always lived as if the depression was still in full swing. And they love it. Bee, for instance, made abject poverty sound like the nearest thing to heaven--and everybody loves it.

I've been a mudcatter for a decade, and I've seen a lot of soup recipes, read about the virtues of heat from woodburning stoves and such things, but never seen any discussions of investment management, no strategies for protecting income and other resources, or any of the stuff that real survival in today's world depends upon.

No advice here on how to keep the house when you lose your job--no advice on what to do when you have good income, but your credit is overextended. No advice on what to do when you need a car to work, the old one is shot, and you can't get financing for another one--

The reality is that things have been tight for a lot of people for quite a long time, and most of you have missed it--

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Bee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:20 PM

True, M.Ted, to a point. I have to say, though, that we and most of my friends/relatives either own outright or are close to owning our own homes, moved out of cities 10 to 20 years ago, and have retirement income strategies of some kind, some better than others. Most of us have good credit because we are suspicious of credit, and have used it sparingly, however that goes against the instincts of financial planners/money managers.

So you're right - we aren't really able to give advice about the concerns you express; we just hope we've done the right thing by being very basic about protecting ourselves financially over the long term.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Janie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM

M. Ted,

Actually, I think we haven't missed it at all - many of us are the people for whom things have been tight for quite a long time.   I've never had a good income, and have therefore been very careful about debt, and very conservative with what little money I have had to invest. I suspect the same is true for many others here. I think for many of us, we have had times when things were tight, and times when things were even tighter financially.   It leads to confidence that we will manage, no matter what happens.

My house is paid for and I have no debt. Ditto my parents and sister. I've never borrowed money to buy a car in my life, and hope I don't ever have to. I'm not a good money manager, but I am confident I can make whatever adjustments are necessary to live within my means, whatever those means may be. Again, having family, neighbors and/or community with a clear sense of interdependence helps bunches.

I think my situation may be pretty typical of the average Mudcatter.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Charmion
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:06 PM

Like Janie said.

Also, those of us who are financially comfortable come from families with vivid and frequently recounted memories of hard times and learned old-fashioned financial priorities from our parents: keep your day job, feed the family, make sure everyone has good shoes and a winter coat, keep the roof and the furnace intact, save for rainy days and old age. Take financial advice from the most cautious people you can find and, if you invest, make damned sure you can at least keep your shirt if all else fails. Keep your resume and your passport up to date and never be too proud to work because nothing is sure in this world.

There: that's financial advice folkie-style.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:44 PM

I'm making one helluva lot more money than I ever thought I would. I probably make more money in one year (including benefits) than my mother made in her whole life. I'm not wealthy, my wife is not from a wealthy family.

But we are both from families that are truly frugal.

Don't buy more than you really need. Waste not, want not. Put some aside for a rainy day. Repair it (if you can) instead of replacing it. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Pay the rent, utilities, and food first. Buy the best you can afford. Nobody ever went broke planning for hard times. Borrow only when you must and pay it back a fast as you can. Help others less fortunate, because you might need help someday. Celebrate whenever you can. There are no pockets in a shroud.

Everyone knows what to do. All they have to do is do it.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:57 PM

Looks to me like folkies are the true conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Amos
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:02 PM

Ted,

Our house and cars are paid for. Our only debt is monthly cycles of plastic. But we live frugally. We don't dine out, don't go to overpriced trashy films, don't drink at bars. Once in a while, we may go somewhere that strikes us as quirky or special. We're glad to have the option.

If you want advice on the issues you mention, I'll be glad to share points of view on them, FWIW.


A

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:13 PM

When the bottom fell out in Cuba after the USSR pulled out, they organized organic gardening and agriculture conservation which saved their country. Eventually they developed accredited universities and schools and a first-rate medical system.

The credit card has been overextended to Americans and the bill has come due. Now it's time to reevaluate what it means to be American and get back to our core principles of
"life liberty and the pursuit of happiness". This means that we can't continue to borrow on our energy, our commodities, our consumerism, our misguided foreign policy to preserve these by aggression in foreign countries. We need to rethink what America means.

Andrew Bacevich's book "The Limits of Power" recommended by Bill Moyers is a good
start.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:34 PM

The consumerism of the first 3/4's of the 20th century that made this country the land of opportunity is not the consumerism of the last 1/4 of the 20th century and the early 21st century. This is more like the late 19th century US, as well as much of Europe. We have once again made demigods of the capitalists, the result being the widening gap between rich and poor, as well as the centralizing of the wealth in fewer and fewer hands. We let our intellect and good sense get dumbed down to a cliche driven tower of babel discussion, and then when we get bit, we are all angry and confused. We get so caught up in the party line, that we fail to be honest even with ourselves. When we are making a god out of capital, the line from The Snake comes to mind:

She clutched him to her bosom, "You're so beautiful," she cried
"But if I hadn't brought you in, by now you might have died"
Now she stroked his pretty skin again and then kissed and held him tight
But instead of saying thanks, the snake gave her a vicious bite!
"Take me in, oh tender woman
Take me in for heaven's sake
Take me in, tender woman," sighed the snake
"Now I saved you," cried the woman
And you've bit me, even why?
And you know your bite is poisonous and now I'm going to die"
"Ah shut up, silly woman," said that reptile with a grin
"Now you knew darn well I was a snake before you brought me in


Mick

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:42 PM

Just like my ancestors, I'll go back to growing my own. And I come from pretty good stock.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:23 PM

What a nice, sensible group.
Why be frugal? Take a small circle of friends and organize a blackmarket operation. Be alert to those on the edge with some savings who desire commodities that can be taken from the unwary. Be ready to take advantage!
A lucrative endeavor; one may continue to dine out, go to overpriced trashy films [and trashier music galas] and in the bars toast the enterprise and cunning of those who have learned to live above the means of others.

Bottom falls out? Opportunities will abound.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:39 PM

Actually, the world has done pretty well by way of capital, and, despite the current problems, financial system that you all wax so poetically against (and which you all took advantage of to achieve your current material ensconcements) isn't going anywhere.

Bee understood the point, which is, again, there isn't much help here for anyone who is simply trying to deal with the real bottom line issues, which are all related to credit.

You may not carry a lot of credit/debt, but if your employer needs credit to do business, you could be in serious trouble. Even charitable, non-profit, and governmental organizations need credit, if it's only just to bridge gaps between the time that salaries and expenses must be paid and the time that revenues are received.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: bobad
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:49 PM

When all the trees have been cut down,
when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted,
when all the air is unsafe to breathe,
only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

Cree Prophecy

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:24 PM

Sorry, M. Ted. I work for a city that has more in the "banks" than it has in debt. They work (and I work) very, very hard to keep taxes low and to squeeze the eagles until they scream in pain. We even reuse the asphalt milled off the streets during repaving. Next year we'll start work on a plant to reuse water -- sewage treatment with a vengeance.

My pensions are guaranteed by the States I used to work in. If the bottom REALLY DOES fall out we'll all be in desperate trouble -- I can only hope that we'll survive.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: M.Ted
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:25 PM

What are you sorry for?

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Janie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:48 PM

What those of us posting here have, that the stock market can't touch, are knowledge, skills and resources in the form of paid off, or nearly paid off shelter, and family, friends and communities that are also resourceful.

We also apparently all still have the physical capacity to do some fairly heavy labor - serious gardening on a large scale is hard physical work. In addition, productive gardening is not inexpensive.   Unless you live where you can keep chickens or a cow or two, fertilizer is a major expense. And if you have to buy feed for those animals, that is pretty costly also. Once you get started, you can save seed, but the initial cost of seed for a large garden is significant. Water is an increasingly scarce resource, is often rationed, and at least in my part of the country, is so expensive that irrigation from municipal water sources is not cost effective. And if income is reduced, it is not doable. So if you are planning on raising a bunch of your own food or growing food to barter, better get those rain barrels and a tiller purchased now, and figure out a way to store quantities of that collected water to get you through the dry season. Or drill a deep well for irrigation purposes while you still have the money to do so. Without adequate water during the growing season, you will sinply be wasting your money and labor in putting in a significant garden.

That is not to say you can't still supplement your diet and food bill in season with salad and container veggie gardening. However, don't have illusions about feeding yourself and your family if you don't have what it takes to successfully grow a substantial garden. Let us not be naive.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:13 PM

"Once you get started, you can save seed,"

Nope - not any more - the big seed corporations have 'fixed' that - and if the seeds ARE viable - they will sue you out of existence, as has happened to a few farmers already.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 11:38 PM

Oh yes, you can, Fooles. Not as much nor as many foods as used to could but many, many things.

My place is looking better and better! I should drill a well, however; there is a spring on it but for a good supply I need a well. Shouldn't be a problem reaching the water level though; there is a spring above me and a country creek below me.

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: M.Ted
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 01:02 AM

Ebbie--you remind me of ending of some old western--


"What are you gonna do now, Tex?"

"I got me a farm out in Oregon. I reckon I'll head out there."

"You wouldn't mind havin' a leetle company? Least as far as the Columbia River."

"Do what you want, pilgrim, but if'n you fall off that dag blasted horse of yorn, don't expect me to stop for ya."

"I don't expect no help. Not from an ornery old coot like you."

"Well it takes one to know one, I reckon!"



And it does sound good--

Subject: RE: BS: If the Bottom DOES fall out
From: Janie
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 02:01 AM

M. Ted,

I started this thread, and it is the only thread on the bailout or the economic crisis to which I have posted. In addition, I have not posted to any of the political threads since well before the end of the primary season. Neither have I contacted any of my congressmen/women regarding this issue. I don't know what ought to be done, and am very cognizant that whatever is, or is not done by our national legislature is ultimately a crapshoot.

I agree that Bee is her customary clear, nondefensive and articulate self, and she gets it. She posted while I'll was writing my immediately subsequent reply, and when I read her post after submitting my own, I thought that she had said it much better than did I.

I think most of us who are posting to this particular thread, (and maybe I am wrong,) are simply focusing on the query I posted to begin with - If push comes to shove, what conversations and thoughts are you having about how you and yours might make it through. My inquiry, and the responses of people over-all, are very personal and individual to each of our circumstances.

I don't think I understand what your issue is with these very personal, non-political responses. Are some of us talking apples while you are talking oranges perhaps?