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Singer/songwriters(again)
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Subject: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Mark Ross Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:56 PM Dave Van Ronk said that defining yourself as a S/S is defining the person not the music. He said that that would put Joni Mitchell and Hoagy Carmichael in the same category(an interesting thought, he said). Utah Phillips upon being given the lifetime Acheivement Award at the Folk Annoyance in Canada said thus; "The aging Folksinger steps out of the music store, his 1930's Gibson slung low on his hip to be confronted by a brash, young, singer-songwriter, armed with an Ovation and an effects box. The brash, young singer-songwriter assaults the aging folksinger with 20 minutes of intensely personal, highly metaphorical verbiage. The aging folksinger swings his sunburst Gibson L-OO around, and responds with a verse and a chorus of RED RIVER VALLEY. The brash, young, singer-songwriter drops, stunned by the simplicity of an un-authored folksong!" Mark Ross |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Barry Finn Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:19 PM I'm not touching this one, I got so in trouble the last 5 times. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Tim Leaning Date: 17 Oct 08 - 11:52 PM Sorry I dont understand the un authored folksong bit. Actualy I dont know what Highly metaphorical verbiage means realy either. Would someone be real nice and explain? Ta! OH and did the ovation come out of the effects box? DID the aging folk singer never write a song? I think I will just come back and read this after some cleverer people have padded it out a bit. LOL |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: alanabit Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:26 AM Both Utah Phillips and Dave Van Ronk's points are well taken. From the sixties/seventies onwards, the term "singer/songwriter" was used by the media and record companies to endow a sort of untouchable mystique upon their protegés. Rather than let the usual blather about this break out on Mudcat, I think it would make more sense for us to take it as given that we, as grown ups, have seen through this nonsense. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:28 AM Well Tim, its about being young and being old. Young people always write about relationships. Even when they are writing about bad and troubled relationships, there is a sort of glint of hope in their eyes - cos they believe the world can be better. And as Bob Dylan rightly points out some of us manage to stay forever young. The rest of us get old, and we watch all this activity like wounded animals from the shelter of a cave. And we know that relationships are one more thing we can't do - like fixing the car - we could never really do it - but we went through periods in our lives when we thought we could. So we take pleasure in classic folksongs and classic guitars - usually perched on our pot bellies rather than low slung on the hip. I agree with the rest of it. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Peace Date: 18 Oct 08 - 03:30 AM I'm not sure I do or do not agree. I really don't understand what Utah said. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Darowyn Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:00 AM Al alternative scenario- incorporating a more realistic view of the attitudes of young people. Young singer songwriter:- "What's that boring old rubbish you're playing man?" Aging Folk singer:- "Red River Valley" Young singer songwriter:-"Is it an old Woody Guthrie song?" Aging Folk singer:-"Nobody knows who wrote it" Young singer songwriter:-"Sounds like nobody did write it. All those cheesy standard chords-Yuk!" Aging Folk singer drops to the ground, stunned by the realisation of his own irrelevance. Young singer songwriter:-(picks up old Gibson) "I'll get a good price for this on Ebay, and buy myself a big PA rig" Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: alanabit Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:17 AM Oddly enough, although "Red River Valley" now has a universal resonance, it could very well have started life as one of those personal outpourings, which Utah Phillips was taking a swipe at. In a way it was the "Take Me Home Country Roads" of its day. Over the years I have gone off that narcisstic stuff. As a young man, I felt that the songs needed to be identified very closely with their writers. I have changed my mind. However, isn't it possible that songs, which begin life as personal statements, can later come to mean something for many other people? |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Acorn4 Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:39 AM It's a spectrum isn't it. Songs range from embarrassingly awful through to works of genius. A lot of songs are well worth a listen in the middle ranges of the spectrum. As you develop a bit you gradually get to know what your particular niche is, after a few experiments and blind alleys along the way - you won't get the really good songs without the crap. Sometimes a writer will produce mainly musical polyfilla but then come up with a couple of great songs. It is perhaps a bit harder being a songwriter because you're putting your whole self on the line every time you perform. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Anne Lister Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:32 AM As a songwriter I'd say that if "you're putting your whole self on the line every time you perform" then you probably need therapy instead of gigs! One of the important lessons to learn as a songwriter is (at least in my experience and opinion) that your job is to make your specific experience more universal in order to create a good song. Which means adapting a degree of distance from it. If your songs are like your personal diary, or your own most personal thoughts, you're probably unlikely to reach most of your audience, unless they've shared precisely the same experiences. And those are the kind of songs that have given the "singer/songwriter" such a bad name. Anne standing on a soapbox.... |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Acorn4 Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:49 AM I agree with you 100% Tabster. Perhaps I didn't put the point over that well. What I actually meant was that if you are singing soeone else's song or a trad number and it goes down like the proverbial lead balloon, you can always shed part of the responsibility. If it's your own song there's nowhere to hide. I don't write songs about "failed relationships" - I suppose the classic album of these is the brilliant "Another Side of Bob Dylan", but a lot of songs in this vein, come under the heading of what my wife calls "musical masturbation". |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: John Hardly Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:15 AM The problem with Phillips' story doesn't lie in the notion that styles can be compared and contrasted. It lies in the false notion that music is a competition. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Tim Leaning Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:19 AM I just love to hear people making music. But not too loudly. IS Utahs story perhaps an earlier version of the bad feeling I sometimes detect towards Say a certain folk prog on radio2? or an extended family of musical persons at times on here? I dunno but us singer song whingers gotta stic k together,specialy us prettier ones. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Piers Plowman Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM Without ever bothering to try to find out, I also kind of thought singer-songwriter was based on the French term "auteur-compositeur-interprète" used for people who wrote, composed and sang their own songs --- a rare combination of skills. One the very best, in my opinion, is Jacques Brel. However, he didn't write the music to all of his songs. I think that's rather to his credit than otherwise. It should be the music that counts rather than proving that one has this or that talent. Singer-songwriters were one of the reasons I lost interest in so-called "folk music" or folk-style music a long time ago, before becoming interested in it again. One can (and does) argue about the definition of "folk music", but I think including the songs of Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Gordon Lightfoot, Steve Goodman, John Prine, Ralph McTell, etc., however good they may be, makes nonsense of the definition. I do find a lot of songs by singer-writers make me roll my eyes and cringe. Some are great, though. Many do seem to be about the problems of singer-songwriters, like novels about middle-aged teachers of writing courses at small American colleges written by middle-aged teachers of writing courses at small American colleges. There's a radio program here (Germany) where they've been playing music by some singer-songwriters and similar acts. An hour just of one musician or group with a few tid-bits of information in-between. For example, last week was Jackson Browne. I was somewhat interested in hearing about his early career, but eventually I switched it off. A bit over-familiar. I did the same when they had a show about James Taylor. The one about Loggins and Messina was interesting, although I didn't care for the music very much. I think that's the crux of the problem with singer-songwriters: It's a rather short slide into elevator music. In fact, I just looked up Roger Whittaker on Wikipedia and this is what it said: "Roger Whittaker (born March 22, 1936 in Nairobi, Kenya) is an English-Kenyan singer/songwriter and musician with worldwide record sales of more than 55 million. His music can be described as folk or easy listening. In his early career, his trademark was his whistling ability." The "whistling ability" part makes me like him more, though. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 18 Oct 08 - 07:52 AM ""Which means adapting a degree of distance from it. If your songs are like your personal diary, or your own most personal thoughts, you're probably unlikely to reach most of your audience, unless they've shared precisely the same experiences."" I AGREE!! Of all the songs I've composed over thirty plus years, only one is about me, or my life. Now they may all be crap (will be in at least some listeners' estimation), or there may be some worthwhile. What they are decidedly NOT, is musical masturbation, sentimental whining over failed relationships, or introspective navel gazing. Thanks to the narrow, blinkered, view of songwriters that is adopted by so many who don't have the talent to write songs, and not a few who DO, I find myself categorised as being one or all of the above. And I don't much care for it. In fact, if ignorant and stupid comment actually meant anything, I might get quite annoyed. However my usual reaction is "What do THEY know"?.......The answer, from years of experience is Bugger All!! Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Peace Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM "If your songs are like your personal diary, or your own most personal thoughts, you're probably unlikely to reach most of your audience, unless they've shared precisely the same experiences. And those are the kind of songs that have given the "singer/songwriter" such a bad name." Horseshit. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Bobert Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:19 AM John Hardly is correct... If yer playing music as a competition then yer probably missing the pure joy of music... It ain't a competition... Especially at the folk singer level... I mean, let's get real here... It AC/DC verses Metallicam gol danged it... That's what makes it folk music... B~ |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Peace Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:23 AM Sorry, I'm not in the mood to be eloquent. There are kids out there writing songs that you may not like, but they are pushing boundaries in music. Not all of it works. Some of it does. I feel equally at home listening to trad, bluegrass, blues, punk, rap, opera, symphony orchestras, barber shop quartet. Myopic and narrow-minded views of what SHOULD constitue music 'fit for the masses' is not your sole domain. It belongs to people, and I am bloody tited of some self-appointed elite deciding what is or isn't good. People like what they like, and all the pedantic crap in the world ain't gonna change that. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Peace Date: 18 Oct 08 - 08:55 AM Alas, my love, you do me wrong, To cast me off discourteously. For I have loved you well and long, Delighting in your company. Greensleeves was all my joy Greensleeves was my delight, Greensleeves was my heart of gold, And who but my lady greensleeves. Alas, my love, that you should own A heart of wanton vanity, So must I meditate alone Upon your insincerity. Greensleeves was all ... Your vows you've broken, like my heart, Oh, why did you so enrapture me? Now I remain in a world apart But my heart remains in captivity. Greensleeves was all ... If you intend thus to disdain, It does the more enrapture me, And even so, I still remain A lover in captivity. Greensleeves was all ... I have been ready at your hand, To grant whatever thou wouldst crave;, I have both wagered life and land, Your love and good-will for to have. Greensleeves was all ... Thou couldst desire no earthly thing, But still thou hadst it readily. Thy music still to play and sing; And yet thou wouldst not love me. Greensleeves was all ... I bought thee kerchiefs for thy head, That were wrought fine and gallantly; I kept thee at both board and bed, Which cost my purse well-favoredly. Greensleeves was all ... I bought thee petticoats of the best, The cloth so fine as it might be; I gave thee jewels for thy chest, And all this cost I spent on thee. Greensleeves was all ... Thy smock of silk, both fair and white, With gold embroidered gorgeously; Thy petticoat of sendal right, And these I bought thee gladly. Greensleeves was all ... My men were clothed all in green, And they did ever wait on thee; All this was gallant to be seen, And yet thou wouldst not love me. Greensleeves was all ... They set thee up, they took thee down, They served thee with humility; Thy foot might not once touch the ground, And yet thou wouldst not love me. Greensleeves was all ... 'Tis I will pray to God on high, That thou my constancy mayst see, And that yet once before I die, Thou wilt vouchsafe to love me. Greensleeves was all ... Ah, Greensleeves, now farewell, adieu, To God I pray to prosper thee, For I am still thy lover true, Come once again and love me. Greensleeves was all ... Yeah. Another useless snigger-snogwriter. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: quokka Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:13 AM Well said, Peace - (post at 8.23am Oct 18). Ditto. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Big Al Whittle Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:25 AM 'If yer playing music as a competition then yer probably missing the pure joy of music... It ain't a competition... ' It is if you enter the Matttesons Sausage company Songwriting Competition, as I did. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tPo2xjWYDUg |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Jeri Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:31 AM Funny thing is, many of the people who bitch about singer/songwriters have some singer/songwriter work in their collections or perform their songs. These seem pretty personal: Here come the critics now Now I'm standing in this phone booth with a dollar and a dime Farewell to you my love, my time is almost doneOK, so you might not like any of those but I'm sure there are others. Songs do not connect unles they ARE personal. Sure you may sing a song for other reasons, but think about the songs you sing because you LOVE them. It's probably because they have personal meaning for you, which they have because they had personal meaning to the person who wrote them. So when people whine about singer/songwriters, what I hear is that they simply don't like the songs and they don't have the words to express why they don't like them. When you point out they DO like some, they'll tell you that singer/songwriter is different. If you ask them to explain the exact ways the person is different that make the person you're talking to like them, they probably can't tell you Bashing a whole bunch of people because you don't like some things that some of them do, or 'stereotyping' as it's commonly known, is an easy way to simplify hatred or disdain so you don't have to actually think about why you feel that way so you can explain it. I generally see this bitching about singer/songwriters as not liking songs and being completely unable to tell anybody why. Guess what? You don't like hearing about their personal feelings and I don't like hearing about yours. You don't have to have a reason not to like something. It's not good, it's not bad, you just don't like it. It's OK. 1 Clearing in the Forest,Utah Phillips 2 Hard Love, Bob Franke 3Joy of Living, Ewan MacColl |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: John Hardly Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:39 AM Jeri, come over here and get a kiss (a respectful one, of course) for mentioning Bob Franke. God, what a writer! |
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Subject: Lyr Add: FOR REAL (Bob Franke) From: John Hardly Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:42 AM (I remember being brought to tears by...
FOR REAL
Death took the husband of a neighbor of mine on a highway with a drunk at the wheel.
CHORUS: There's a hole in the middle of the prettiest life; so the lawyers and the prophets say.
My father never put his parachute on in the Pacific back in World War II.
It's lucky that my daughter got her mother's nose, and just a little of her father's eyes;
CHORUS: For the hole in the middle of a pretty good life; I only face it 'cause it's here to stay.
Some say that God is a lover, some say it's an endless void. Love lasts forever. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: olddude Date: 18 Oct 08 - 10:00 AM I don't know what singer/songwriter folk definition is supposed to mean. I think with folk music the artist is writing and playing for his or herself. Not for record deals or to reach a vast majority of people but for themselves. It is personal in that regards that it is their own but what makes it great is the common emotion it triggers in others. Look at Bruce's masterpiece MOH ... those are his songs his feelings his heart in them. Songs like that were not stamped out in a studio with people saying you will reach the target audience of 18-30 year olds and will sell x number of records and fits this genere so the record companies can easily label it. What makes those works not a personal diary is - we can all relate to the feeling and it triggers the same feeling in us as the artist. The greatest songs as pointed out many times were anon or trad because everyone can understand the emotion in the song and not just the artist. All songs are someone's feelings set to music in some manner. The difference is what common button in everyone does it press. "Blowin in the Wind is personal, it is the thoughts and heart of the writer. Why do we like it, we can understand the question and agree with the message. Personal to everyone and not just the writer. My take on it. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Tim Leaning Date: 18 Oct 08 - 12:37 PM I reckon I would enjoy spending the evening in a nice cozy pub. Fire glowing in the open hearth,listening to each of you telling a story ,joke,singing a song or playing a tune. Even a poem or two. Each taking a turn and even having my own few minutes to sing you one of my songs. Hey if I sing flat or play badly what did it cost you? If it aint folk or traditional whats your problem? Lets have another beer and get back to enjoying what we each bring to this life.. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Georgiansilver Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:23 PM I am a singer/songwriter... I am not brilliant but get by... many are better than me and some are not so good... so what's the big deal with the thread???? What is it trying to prove or disprove... ? Or rather who is trying to prove or disprove what?? Best wishes, Mike. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Acorn4 Date: 18 Oct 08 - 02:33 PM Referring back to the comment by Peace:- Just trying to imagine Henry Vlll standing up in front of his courtiers, lute at the ready, preparing to launch into Greensleeves saying:- "This is a song about a failed relationship!" |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:25 PM Does anyone really give a rats ass if you like apples more than oranges? Fruit survives the controversy, and folk music survives WITH singer-songwriters carrying on a new tradition. Utah Phillips was a great singer-songwriter. He also sang some nice folk songs. The Folk Alliance, in my opinion, serves a good purpose - but it is not for everyone. From what I gather, Utah was a supporter of the FA. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Tim Leaning Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:31 PM Hi GS. I dont realy get the point either but keep getting a feeling I am about to learn something. LOl (Then warp it to fit what I already thought about whatever it is.) LOL |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: dick greenhaus Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:46 PM It seems that the ones whose songs one really like aren't thought of as s/s--MacColl, Phillips, Silverstein etc. Maybe it's become a euphemism for singers whose songs one doesn't like. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 18 Oct 08 - 04:49 PM I think you hit the nail on the head Dick! |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Bill D Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:22 PM "Maybe it's become a euphemism for singers whose songs one doesn't like." Maybe...but that's not what I'd call it, Dick...There are real differences, whether one likes the songs or not. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 18 Oct 08 - 05:46 PM "There are real differences, whether one likes the songs or not. " Whether one likes the song or not does NOT make a difference |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: dick greenhaus Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:25 PM Yes, Bill, there are (usually) differnces. But Do you think of, say, Ewan MacColl as a singer/songwriter? |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Peace Date: 18 Oct 08 - 06:59 PM People who like Silverstein as a songwriter must surely be aware that he wrote many of the songs on Dr Hook and the Medicine Show's best record (imo). Amongst those songs was "Sylvia's Mother." "In 1972, Silverstein told Rolling Stone magazine that there was a real Sylvia: "I just changed the last name, not to protect the innocent, but because it didn't fit. It happened about eight years ago and was pretty much the way it was in the song. I called Sylvia and her mother said, 'She can't talk to you.' I said, 'Why not?' Her mother said she was packing and she was leaving to get married, which was a big surprise to me. The guy was in Mexico and he was a bullfighter and a painter. At the time I thought that was like being a combination brain surgeon and encyclopedia salesman. Her mother finally let me talk to her, but her last words were, 'Shel, don't spoil it.' For about ten seconds I had this ego charge, as if I could have spoiled it. I couldn't have spoiled it with a sledge hammer." Other quotes are available with a google of Sylvia's Mother by Dr. Hook and the Medicine Show Songfacts |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Joe_F Date: 18 Oct 08 - 09:53 PM This company might be amused by my animadversions on this notion, which are part of an email discussion within the Folk Song Society of Greater Boston four years ago: 1. Trad vs singer-songwriter I gather that this is an important divide & that I am on the extreme trad side of it. However, I don't see the point of it, and in particular the names don't make sense to me. Evidently, writing songs & singing them does not suffice to make one a singer-songwriter; otherwise, my singing songs by Pete Seeger, Lou & Peter Berryman, Ewan MacColl, Bob Blue, Tom Lehrer, Malvina Reynolds, Cyril Tawney, Leslie Fish, Stan Rogers, Flanders & Swann, etc. would put me squarely in the enemy camp. Perhaps the real animus is like that in a conversation I was once told about: "Put the teapot on the stove & heat it hot as hell. Then put the tea in. That way, the water will continue to boil violently when it hits the tea." "Doesn't that sometimes break the teapot?" "There are those who like teapots, and those who like tea." Likewise, there are those who like singers & those who like songs, regardless of origin. For the other side, human beings are at the center of the stage, everything else is a prop, and songs in particular are vehicles for singers, songwriters, and singer-songwriters to express their yearnings for love or money. For me, the songs are at the center; they are, among other things, a way of seeing people in perspective; and when it comes to gossiping sentimentally about the people connected with the songs (something I am all in favor of -- look me up on the Mudcat Forum), I am most interested in the ones mentioned in the songs, secondarily in the ones who made them up, and only cursorily in the ones who perform them, who are only one way to get the songs propagated -- containers & dispensers. In itself, that need not be a cause of conflict -- it might merely add to the variety of songs & talk. But in the present cultural context it is something of a party question, mixed up in the wars between nerds & jocks, among word people, people people, & thing people, between amateurs & professionals, etc. That may be why you folks are treading so carefully. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Peace Date: 18 Oct 08 - 10:27 PM My apology to Anne, because I did not mean to direct that at her, although it certainly looks that way. I eagerly await her CD because it will be a beautiful work of art and artistry. I have heard far to many people dismiss various musics because it is 'not their TYPE' of music. That comes from both the world of music and over-hearing teenagers after playing some stuff for them from Robert Johnson, Stravinski, Kenny Rogers, Mary Chapin, Pete Seeger, Bob Seger, Joni Mitchell, Bob Dylan, Tom Paxton. Often on second hearing something goes click and weeks later I have seen the same teens listening to other songs in a similar vein. Many people have presented the folk tradition and held it to our ears because they love it. I'm thinking of the Easbys, Crumps and Andersons in England and their stalwart defense and preservation of a great and wonderful area of English music--although I fight with them constantly ever single time we end up on threads together. I suppose I'm fortunate that 95% of traditional music leaves me cold, because about 95% of the rest of music does, too. The most disappointing thing a songwriter can hear from anyone is, "It's not my type of music." I think it shows prejudice and narrow mindedness. I think it diminishes the critic, denigrates the songwriter and throws away the diamonds with the dirt. Anyway, that's it for me and this thread. Sorry to have intruded. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 18 Oct 08 - 10:57 PM Who says singer/songwriters always write about relationships? I think that I've probably written three or four songs in my life about relationships. Unless you count relationships with dogs (of the canine variety.) Then the number is somewhere up around 20. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Tim Leaning Date: 19 Oct 08 - 04:45 AM Woof? or Wuff? WHich is the one true path? |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Piers Plowman Date: 19 Oct 08 - 07:55 AM From: Mark Ross - PM Date: 17 Oct 08 - 09:56 PM "'The aging Folksinger steps out of the music store, his 1930's Gibson slung low on his hip to be confronted by a brash, young, singer-songwriter, armed with an Ovation and an effects box. The brash, young singer-songwriter assaults the aging folksinger with 20 minutes of intensely personal, highly metaphorical verbiage. The aging folksinger swings his sunburst Gibson L-OO around, and responds with a verse and a chorus of RED RIVER VALLEY. The brash, young, singer-songwriter drops, stunned by the simplicity of an un-authored folksong!'" I like U. Utah Philips, but I don't find this fantasy particularly convincing. Would a brash young singer-songwriter really be stunned by "Red River Valley"? I think not. I'd rather have a Gibson than an Ovation, but having had to make do with what I can afford for a long time has cured me of instrument snobbery. I don't think criticizing "singer-songwriting" as a genre is either "whining" or "bitching" and I'm quite able to say what I don't like about it, as well as what I do. The point of this thread is to discuss, like every other thread here. Why shouldn't the music of singer-songwriters be criticized, as long as its civil and not below the belt? Last night the program I mentioned was about Donovan. I lasted 50 minutes before finally switching off. It was kind of interesting to hear what he had to say for himself. While I sometimes like nonsense poetry, I don't like nonsense poetry pretending to be "meaningful". This is one of my main criticisms of singer-songwriters --- especially Bob Dylan. Another thing I don't like is the unbearable self-righteousness and preachiness of the songs of some singer-songwriters. This is true of the German variety ("Liedermacher" = "song-makers"), too. Some singer-songwriters may be very admirable people, I may agree with their politics, and political activism may also be admirable, but it doesn't automatically make for good music. Having reached adulthood, I don't look to songwriters for information about politics. I disagree about any musician who gets up on a stage and plays to a paying audience being "uncommercial". If you get paid, it's commercial. One may refuse to compromise or accept being unpopular or never be able to give up one's day job, but if money changes hands, it's commercial. Why this gets me riled up is so much due to musicians but to so-called "artists", where people who sell smears of paint or strewn-about rubbish for large sums of money are supposedly "non-commercial". (Full-length rant available upon request.) |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Piers Plowman Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:07 AM I wrote: "Why this gets me riled up is so much due to musicians but to so-called 'artists' [...]" I meant "not so much due to musicians". (Got over-excited there.) "Another thing I don't like is the unbearable self-righteousness and preachiness of the songs of some singer-songwriters." And as long as I'm standing, I forgot "smugness". |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Piers Plowman Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:10 AM On the other hand, it takes guts to stick one's neck out and broadcast one's deepest personal feelings to the world and expose oneself to criticism. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Gene Burton Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM I've only had the time to skim read this one, so apologies if this duplicates anyone elses's thoughts...but, for the umpteenth time, could somebody please explain to me where the "traditional unauthored folk song" comes from? Is the contention that they never had to be composed by a human being; and if so, how so? Created by God at the beginning of time? Left on Utah Phillip's pillow by the folk song fairy?? I think we should be told. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Piers Plowman Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:56 AM From: Gene Burton - PM Date: 19 Oct 08 - 08:32 AM "I've only had the time to skim read this one, so apologies if this duplicates anyone elses's thoughts...but, for the umpteenth time, could somebody please explain to me where the "traditional unauthored folk song" comes from?" To the best of my knowledge, it comes from a theory about how folksongs came to be. One school of thought favored the idea that someone had written them and they were changed (and possibly "debased") as they spread from mouth-to-mouth. Another favored the idea that they were composed "collectively" and didn't have a single author. The truth is, no one really knows. It probably lies somewhere in between; some songs more one way, some more another. Someone came up with the idea of the "folk-process" to describe how songs change as they are transmitted. Sorry, it's all a bit complicated and would require lots of looking-up and footnotes to do the topic justice. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: olddude Date: 19 Oct 08 - 11:12 PM For me it boils down to this, some music I like, some music I am absolutely crazy about, some music I cannot stomach no matter how much medicine I take. How it is classified, categorized, discussed, debated or dissected for hidden meaning - If it is a great song, I will probably learn it and play it, if I hate it, I will pass. I really don't care where it comes from or who the artist is. Some artists for me have a higher track record of great songs that I like than others. However even great songwriters like great painters make bad songs sometimes. And I fully appreciate that others may think the song is wonderful. I am sure many people think the "horse with no name is a masterpiece" Bruce will vomit if he hears that song. Personal taste just like the personal taste in guitars. Who cares if it is trad, anon or written by Joe the Plumber to quote McCain if you like it rock on, if not ... don't listen. I myself will not listen to Rap, and I am on record about my feelings towards that "art form" however, I realize many people do so to each their own. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Declan Date: 20 Oct 08 - 03:07 AM I think the real problem is describing 'singer songwriter' as a genre. Being able to sing well is a great talent, so is being able to write good songs. If someone is able to do both then they are doubly talented. Sometimes singers are put under pressure to perform 'original songs' meaning ones they have written themselves. They may not be particularly good writers. Similarly songwriters may be tempted to record their own material, even if they are not good performers. People who profess not to like singer songwriters would rule out listening to a lot of very talented individuals, but as others have indicated they normally exclude the ones they like from the genre. As to whether or not the output of some/all singer-songwriters is folk music - I'm not going to go there thanks. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: dick greenhaus Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:17 PM The main problem with listening to S/S types is that most of their songs aren't very good. That's not surprising--most of anything isn't very good. The singer of traditional songs has the advantage of having his material more or less pre-filtered; the really bad stuff tends to disappear before he sings it. Yes, it takes some guts to bare your soul in public; it also takes some chutzbah to limit yourself to what you've written. Neither guts nor chutzbah adds significantly to entertainment value, though. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: WFDU - Ron Olesko Date: 20 Oct 08 - 02:45 PM "Yes, it takes some guts to bare your soul in public; it also takes some chutzbah to limit yourself to what you've written. " I would also add that sharing your voice or skills on an instrument also takes just as much chutzbah. It is one thing to do so for your own entertainment, but if you feel that you purpose is to entertain others - you need to drum up as much chutzbah as you can. I've sat through just as many evenings of self-absorbsed singer-songwriters as I've sat through evenings of out of tune, and often out of touch, singers of traditional folk song. Neither are very entertaining or educational in the long run. It is the cream of the crop of each that perpetuate the styles and create traditions. Those are the jewels that make both worthwhile and negate any stereotypes that people create in thei own minds. |
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Subject: RE: Singer/songwriters(again) From: Tim Leaning Date: 20 Oct 08 - 03:02 PM I only play me own songs. I dont think it is realy special or clever. It started because I wanted to be able to play bodrhan. Basicaly I hear loads of people doing covers of great songs and I know I could never perform them as well. But me own are at least half decent (to my ears anyhow) and other people are usualy kind and dont mind me having my turn when it comes around the pub. I do my best and that is all anyone can ask I reckon. SOmetimes they are maybe a bit too personal but I usualy try and back off from that position in the rewriting that inevitably follows the first draught. I have a my space and welcome any comments by way off constructive critique. I will delete very rude sweary bits however. I still say we should be in a nice warm pub havin asing and a play. |
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